Rick Warren's theology: Larry King interview and purpose driven life error

[Bill777]

OK, here's one of the biggest problems with Rick Warren's theology. Rick does not clearly emphasize that personal salvation is about the individual first, the saved believer. It's about serving other people and community a very distant second. I'm going to quote Rick from his book the purpose driven life and then from a Q&A with Larry King, where Rick shows a complete misunderstanding of personal christian growth. Certainly our approval before God is personal and not group based. Did the Lord tell Jeremiah or Ezekiel or any of the other prophets that keeping community with others was required to reach spiritual maturity. Absolutely not.

"Real spiritual growth is never an isolated, individualistic pursuit. Maturity is produced through relationships and community." page 11 of The purpose driven life book

"The last thing many believers need today is to go to another Bible study. They already know far more than they are putting into practice." (page 231) Purpose driven life



On March 22, 2005 on Larry King live Rick Warren answered:

KING: You can, though, Rick, have a purpose-driven life and be an agnostic or an atheist, can't you? Still do good, still help others, still have purpose?

WARREN: Absolutely, you can help other people. I believe that we were made for a purpose, and that purpose is really to know God and to serve God and to love God, and to serve other people by -- serve God by serving others. You know, you can't really serve God directly, Larry, not here on Earth. The only way you can serve God is by serving other people.

 

[woobadooba]

You know, you can't really serve God directly, Larry, not here on Earth. The only way you can serve God is by serving other people.

You don't see that this correlates with these words:

"I give you a new commandment: love one another. Just as I have loved you, you must also love one another. By this all people will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." (Joh 13:34-35 HCSB)

"We love because he first loved us. Those who say, "I love God," and hate their brothers or sisters, are liars; for those who do not love a brother or sister whom they have seen, cannot love God whom they have not seen." (1Jo 4:19-20 NRSV)

 

[Bill777]

You don't see that this correlates with these words:

"I give you a new commandment: love one another. Just as I have loved you, you must also love one another. By this all people will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." (Joh 13:34-35 HCSB)

"We love because he first loved us. Those who say, "I love God," and hate their brothers or sisters, are liars; for those who do not love a brother or sister whom they have seen, cannot love God whom they have not seen." (1Jo 4:19-20 NRSV)

I don't know what this has to do with my post. I never said that you should not serve others. As a matter of fact you should. With that said, Rick Warren states that you can ONLY serve God by serving other people. This is a fatal mistake. How do you explain the thief on the cross in Luke that will be in heaven by acknowledging Jesus Christ just before he died. When sinners come to repentance is between them and God, they are serving God alone here on earth when they repent. Yet Rick Warren says you can't serve God directly here on earth, you can only serve other people. What about a person in his death bed that gets to know Jesus Christ, he is serving God and not other people.

Love your neighbour as yourself is an important commandment but the first and foremost commandment is to Love God above everything else. And there are circumstances that you can love God here on earth when you are by yourself (prayer, repentance and confession, writing a bible commentary, not getting angry when we hear bad news on the radio, etc.). Serving God does not require relationships with other people in every circumstance.

Matthew 22:

36"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" 37And He said to him, " )YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
38"This is the great and foremost commandment.
39"The second is like it, ''YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
40"On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

 

[woobadooba]

I don't know what this has to do with my post. I never said that you should not serve others. As a matter of fact you should. With that said, Rick Warren states that you can ONLY serve God by serving other people. This is a fatal mistake. How do you explain the thief on the cross in Luke that will be in heaven by acknowledging Jesus Christ just before he died. When sinners come to repentance is between them and God, they are serving God alone here on earth when they repent. Yet Rick Warren says you can't serve God directly here on earth, you can only serve other people. What about a person in his death bed that gets to know Jesus Christ, he is serving God and not other people.

Love your neighbour as yourself is an important commandment but the first and foremost commandment is to Love God above everything else. And there are circumstances that you can love God here on earth when you are by yourself (prayer, repentance and confession, writing a bible commentary, not getting angry when we hear bad news on the radio, etc.). Serving God does not require relationships with other people in every circumstance.

Matthew 22:

36"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" 37And He said to him, " )YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
38"This is the great and foremost commandment.
39"The second is like it, ''YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
40"On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

The point that I see him making is that if a person is going to serve God then that person must also be willing to serve others. In other words, how could you say you believe in God's love for you if you aren't willing to share His love with others?

Those who isolate themselves from the work that God has called all believers to do, are not serving the Living God; rather, they're serving a god of convenience.

I'm sure this is what he really meant. Perhaps you should have written to him and asked for clarification before attempting to debunk him in a public forum. Do you think that's a nice thing to do to someone who isn't present to defend himself?

 

[Bill777]

The point that I see him making is that if a person is going to serve God then that person must also be willing to serve others. In other words, how could you say you believe in God's love for you if you aren't willing to share His love with others?

Those who isolate themselves from the work that God has called all believers to do, are not serving the Living God; rather, they're serving a god of convenience.

I'm sure this is what he really meant. Perhaps you should have written to him and asked for clarification before attempting to debunk him in a public forum. Do you think that's a nice thing to do to someone who isn't present to defend himself?

I'm debunking Rick Warren's theology, not him.

I'm saying he emphasizes works over faith, a social gospel over a gospel of salvation. Community Sevice and church membership over a personal relationship of the believer with Jesus Christ through confession of sins, repentance, and Christ's forgiveness.

The Ministry of the Apostle Paul was to preach the good news and spread the gospel, it was not to do community service no matter how commendable it is, at the expense of the gospel.

 

[JonF]

The root of the problem of Rick Warren’s theology is the focus seems to be on man, and not God, but that could just be the Calvinist in me

 

[catlover]

"Real spiritual growth is never an isolated, individualistic pursuit. Maturity is produced through relationships and community." page 11 of The purpose driven life book

"The last thing many believers need today is to go to another Bible study. They already know far more than they are putting into practice." (page 231) Purpose driven life
-----------------------------------------
He's right. There is more to being a Christian than a Bible study, it's about getting off of one's butt and serving and clothing the naked, poor, and hungry.

 

[woobadooba]

I'm debunking Rick Warren's theology, not him.

I'm saying he emphasizes works over faith, a social gospel over a gospel of salvation. Community Sevice and church membership over a personal relationship of the believer with Jesus Christ through confession of sins, repentance, and Christ's forgiveness.

The Ministry of the Apostle Paul was to preach the good news and spread the gospel, it was not to do community service no matter how commendable it is, at the expense of the gospel.

Well, having read his book I strongly disagree with your conclusion. Now, there are certain things I disagree with which he believes, but you are clearly taking what he had said out of context. Anyone who has read his book ought to see this very clearly.

 

[Bill777]

"Real spiritual growth is never an isolated, individualistic pursuit. Maturity is produced through relationships and community." page 11 of The purpose driven life book

"The last thing many believers need today is to go to another Bible study. They already know far more than they are putting into practice." (page 231) Purpose driven life
-----------------------------------------
He's right. There is more to being a Christian than a Bible study, it's about getting off of one's butt and serving and clothing the naked, poor, and hungry.

Rick Warren is no William Booth (the founder of the Salvation Army). The Salvation Army was founded on a strong christian faith and has lasted over 100 years with God's blessing. The Salvation Army was not made up of a bunch of seekers, but strong christians, their individual churches in towns or cities were never as big as Saddleback but their works were mighty because God was behind it. Rick Warren is no Henry Dunant (the founder of the Red Cross) either.

I doubt very much Rick Warren will ever succeed "on serving and clothing the naked, poor, and hungry" to quote you. There's a difference between talk and action. The jury is still out there for Rick, I just happen to believe all his programs are fads of the day and won't leave any lasting legacy.

 

[hoser]

OK, here's one of the biggest problems with Rick Warren's theology. Rick does not clearly emphasize that personal salvation is about the individual first, the saved believer. It's about serving other people and community a very distant second. I'm going to quote Rick from his book the purpose driven life and then from a Q&A with Larry King, where Rick shows a complete misunderstanding of personal christian growth. Certainly our approval before God is personal and not group based. Did the Lord tell Jeremiah or Ezekiel or any of the other prophets that keeping community with others was required to reach spiritual maturity. Absolutely not.

"Real spiritual growth is never an isolated, individualistic pursuit. Maturity is produced through relationships and community." page 11 of The purpose driven life book

"The last thing many believers need today is to go to another Bible study. They already know far more than they are putting into practice." (page 231) Purpose driven life



On March 22, 2005 on Larry King live Rick Warren answered:

KING: You can, though, Rick, have a purpose-driven life and be an agnostic or an atheist, can't you? Still do good, still help others, still have purpose?

WARREN: Absolutely, you can help other people. I believe that we were made for a purpose, and that purpose is really to know God and to serve God and to love God, and to serve other people by -- serve God by serving others. You know, you can't really serve God directly, Larry, not here on Earth. The only way you can serve God is by serving other people.

Well since Rick Warren is a protestant and protestants believe in the Bible alone with no outside authority, that means then that anyone that holds to that belief can interpret the Bible anyway they please. So if Rick Warren believes what he writes/says, than it should be according the Bible alone croud perfectly fine.

 

[jubilationtcornpone]

Apparently, I have to spread some reputation around before giving it to Bill777 again. Nuts.

 

[ROGER459]

(Matthew 6:33) But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Rich Warren is a False Prophet as described in the below verses! His putting the Church and its Needs and PurposeS = BEFORE THAT OF Matthew 6:33, THE COMMAND OF JESUS, is Blasphemy!

(2Corinthains 11:13-14-15) For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
(2Co 11:14) And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
(2Co 11:15) Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

(Matthew 7:20-to-23) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
(Mat 7:21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(Mat 7:22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(Mat 7:23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Note: Christ Jesus said Not Some, Nor Few, BUT HE SAID MANY!

Many churches and leaders HAVE DEPARTED FROM THE WORD! The Blind Followers, that do not Want JESUS to tell them TRUTH, have followed these BLIND LEADERS!

Thanks, Roger459

For more, please visit http://home.att.net/~roger459

 

[Quijote]

Who's Rick Warren?

 

[Paleoconservatarian]

On the contrary, I think that evangelicals today don't have any sort of corporate understanding of salvation. It's entirely individualistic: Me, Jesus, and my Bible. This form of Christianity is very much anti-church. Not necessarily that church is considered bad, just that it has little value apart from "fellowship." The real worship, the real saving action, is separated from the church and is very individualistic. I don't think Warren quite gets this either (the PDL sounds very pietistic and almost social-gospel). Anyway, there is no spiritual growth apart from the church. We cannot retreat into our gnostic cloisters and pursue the "real" Christian growth by ourselves. There must needs be a corporate aspect.

 

[Tonks]

The root of the problem of Rick Warren’s theology is the focus seems to be on man, and not God, but that could just be the Calvinist in me

The Catholic in me agrees.

 

[Bill777]

(Matthew 6:33) But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Rich Warren is a False Prophet as described in the below verses! His putting the Church and its Needs and PurposeS = BEFORE THAT OF Matthew 6:33, THE COMMAND OF JESUS, is Blasphemy!

(2Corinthains 11:13-14-15) For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
(2Co 11:14)And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
(2Co 11:15) Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

(Matthew 7:20-to-23) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
(Mat 7:21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(Mat 7:22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(Mat 7:23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Note: Christ Jesus said Not Some, Nor Few, BUT HE SAID MANY!

Many churches and leaders HAVE DEPARTED FROM THE WORD! The Blind Followers, that do not Want JESUS to tell them TRUTH, have followed these BLIND LEADERS!

Thanks, Roger459

For more, please visit http://home.att.net/~roger459

Agree that Rick has the appearance of somebody that is preaching a different gospel.

From Rick Warren's web site http://www.pastors.com/pcom/specials/rickbio.asp

"At Saddleback, Rick created and pioneered the Purpose-Driven Church paradigm of church health, which teaches the purpose of the church is to help people fulfill God's purposes for their lives."

Nowhere says the bible that the purpose of the church is to help people fulfill God's purposes for their lives. If there was a Judas in the church is the church supposed to help him murder Jesus so that God's purpose is achieved? What about the last days and false prophets, and the decline in faith that the bible talks about? Rick Warren completely ignores all this, God's purpose according to Rick is a perfect world where everybody is doing God's purpose and is having his/her needs met as a result. The purpose driven gospel has a lot in common with the prosperity gospel (although Rick denies it) from the sense that it promises people that God will meet their needs here on earth in a positive manner, where people will love their lives on earth if only they find God's purpose. Heaven on earth for the ones that find God's purpose for them and Rick teaches that we can all find God's purpose, as a matter of fact Rick seems to have found God's purpose for him and all of us in his book. . But the bible teaches us that we as christians we should put our hope in the work of the Lord Jesus Christ, and not in this world nor in ourselves being able to find God's purpose and execute it. Rick Warren's teachings are mistaken and his whole purpose driven theology is made up by him. People want personal growth and self improvement, so Rick offers them that just like the many self help gurus and books that are out there, not realizing that only God can take sin away. Instead at Saddleback they have 12 step programs and myriads of other groups where men / women help out other men / women meet each other's needs (and supposedly according to them fulfill God's purpose). All these programs designed by psychologists and based on psychology instead of the word of God. It's all about meeting man's needs. This is the perfect new age system created in the name of Christ. Let's look at what the secular media says about Rick. I like Forbes magazine's comment comparing Saddleback to Dell, Google or Starbucks as if the church should be run like a business. These quotes also are from Rick Warren's web site http://www.pastors.com/pcom/specials/rickbio.asp

Media:

• The Weekly Standard - "...clearly among the two or three most influential Americans working from the West Coast." (Jan. 29, 2003)
• Books and Culture - "Rick Warren's Saddleback is America's most fascinating megachurch." Alan Wolfe, Boisi Center for American Public Life (Dec. 2003)
• Forbes - "Were it a business, Saddleback Church would be compared with Dell, Google or Starbucks." (Feb 16, 2004)
• Christianity Today - named Warren "The Most Influential Pastor in America." (Cover story, Nov. 8, 2002)
• Fox News - "Warren's 40 Days of Purpose has sparked a nationwide spiritual revival... It has given churches a strategy for reaching the disenchanted." (Nov. 19, 2003)
• Denver Post - "Purpose Driven Life: The book that inspired a movement." (Front page, Nov.3, 2003)
• New Man Magazine -"The most influential pastor in America." (Cover, Feb. 2003)
• Church Executive Magazine - "# 8 in a list of the 50 Most Influential Christians in America" - after President Bush, Attorney Gen. Ashcroft, Justice O'Connor, Billy Graham.
• Ministries Today - "One of 20 Top Influencers of the Church Today." (Jan. 2003)

Forbes magazine publisher Rich Karlgaard called the book the purpose driven church "the best book on entrepreneurship, business, and investment."

 

[thenewageriseth]

Let's hear it for "good works" hip-hip hooray! LOL

 

[HumbleUnderdog]

We get the point, Rick Warren isn't perfect and wrong in many ways. It's a good thing that there are many other Pastors and Doctors and speakers and evangelists who are more spirit-guided than Rick from whom we can learn from.
Better to be a Christ-follower than a Warren-follower anyway.

 

[JonF]

The Catholic in me agrees.

Tonks I have long suspected you of being a closet Calvinist

 

[nahMish]

i totally disagree with Rick Warren being a suppposed ' man-server' not "God-server".

sorry, but thats ridiculous. have a read of his life and other writings-. Go and read up on him so you can make an accurate opinion,.

we CANNOT serve God in the flesh here on earth: we serve him through the naked, the poor, the hungry... in that, we are serving GOD.
he's right: in heaven we will serve God how we were meant to- at the moment, we serve each other and in doing so, serve him.

and by the way: 'purpose driven life' was written to make us aware that we cant live the life we were meant to live without God. ..it is only through God do we find out purpose for living.

Rick Warren's writings are a BLESSING...