Rick Warren's theology: Larry King interview and purpose driven life error

[icedtea]

Didn't Bob Dylan say Don't follow leaders?
I am suspect of all famous pastors. I've read his books and got not much out of them.

 

[Fidei]

Didn't Bob Dylan say Don't follow leaders?
I am suspect of all famous pastors. I've read his books and got not much out of them.

WWBD?

Hmmm...

 

[Bill777]

Didn't Bob Dylan say Don't follow leaders?
I am suspect of all famous pastors. I've read his books and got not much out of them.

I think there's some truth in what you say. Rick Warren is referred to as a christian super star or christian celebrity, that's how Larry King called him.

On May 23, 2005 he spoke about the myths of the modern mega church in Key West Florida and he made the interesting statement that he only speaks to influencers and turns down everybody else. Jesus Christ spoke to the poor and the weak, not to influencers. Jesus came to save souls, not to be a politician and make the world a better place to live for humanity. Rick Warren surrounds himself with politicians, business men, and the United Narions, something Christ would have never done. Christ never tried to be an adviser to Pilate or Herod. This is what Rick had to say when some of the nation's leading journalists gathered in Key West, Florida, in May 2005 for the Pew Forum's biannual Faith Angle conference on religion, politics and public life http://pewforum.org/events/index.php?EventID=80

"I also wanted to come and challenge you to see your writing as a stewardship of influence. God has put you in this position. As you can imagine, I get a lot of invitations to speak – I get about four or five a day – and so I have been choosing pretty carefully which ones to accept. And I came here because I only speak to influencers, and God has given you a degree of influence. "

Certainly not the words that Jesus Christ would have used.

 

[Proeliator]

i totally disagree with Rick Warren being a suppposed ' man-server' not "God-server".

sorry, but thats ridiculous. have a read of his life and other writings-. Go and read up on him so you can make an accurate opinion,.

we CANNOT serve God in the flesh here on earth: we serve him through the naked, the poor, the hungry... in that, we are serving GOD.
he's right: in heaven we will serve God how we were meant to- at the moment, we serve each other and in doing so, serve him.

and by the way: 'purpose driven life' was written to make us aware that we cant live the life we were meant to live without God. ..it is only through God do we find out purpose for living.

Rick Warren's writings are a BLESSING...

No, the Bible is a blessing. I don't understand how people cane be upset with what people have to say about Rick Warren, when all they ever use to make him look like a fool is his own words. this all happened when he did an interview on Good Morning America after Katrina too. You'd think the guy would stop doing interviews.

 

[Melethiel]

The root of the problem of Rick Warren’s theology is the focus seems to be on man, and not God, but that could just be the Calvinist in me

And the Lutheran in me agrees as well.

 

[Bill777]

i totally disagree with Rick Warren being a suppposed ' man-server' not "God-server".

sorry, but thats ridiculous. have a read of his life and other writings-. Go and read up on him so you can make an accurate opinion,.

we CANNOT serve God in the flesh here on earth: we serve him through the naked, the poor, the hungry... in that, we are serving GOD.
he's right: in heaven we will serve God how we were meant to- at the moment, we serve each other and in doing so, serve him.

and by the way: 'purpose driven life' was written to make us aware that we cant live the life we were meant to live without God. ..it is only through God do we find out purpose for living.

Rick Warren's writings are a BLESSING...

Rick Warren's mentor and teacher is Robert Schuler, who admitted that theology should be man centered instead of god centered like the first Reformation. Robert Schuler was the first one to write a book about the second reformation that Rick Warren is leading. Here's what he said:

“Classic theology has erred in its insistence that theology be ‘God-centered,’ not ‘man-centered.’”
– Robert Schuler, Self-Esteem—The New Reformation, 64.

For you to claim that Rick Warren centers on God instead of man is absolutely mistaken. Now the sad thing is that Rick Warren doesn't tell people that he is creating a man centered theology. It is a deception of huge proportions. In his website he admits he is doing theology without telling people that. From http://www.purposedrivenlife.com/rickwarren.aspx


" Dr. Warren says he teaches theology without using theological terms and telling people it is theology."

In his book the purpose driven church Rick Warren makes it clear that pleasing man is his goal, unfortunately he claims that it's a command from God. Everything that Rick Warren does and says is from man, but he says it comes from God:

“God tells us to be sensitive to the hang-ups of unbelievers in our services. Being seeker sensitive in our worship is a biblical command” (p243) The Purpose Driven Life

Being seeker sensitive is not a biblical command, it's Rick Warren's way. More of what the purpose driven church book talks and the emphasis on man is explained in the following paragraph::

If we want to attract an unbelieving crowd, Warren advises us to follow the example of Jesus by loving people, meeting their needs, and teaching them in interesting and practical ways (p208). Once we’ve got them gathered, we need to make the most of the opportunity by being seeker sensitive in our worship, which Warren believes is commanded by 1Cor 14:23 (p243). Method may therefore vary, as long as the message remains biblical. “The spiritual food is unchanged in a seeker sensitive service, but the presentation is more thoughtful and considerate of the guests present” (pp243-244). What this means for Warren is that we need a separate weekly service that is designed particularly to appeal to unbelievers. “Create a service that is intentionally designed for your members to bring their friends to. And make the service so attractive, appealing, and relevant to the unchurched that your members are eager to share it with the lost people they care about” (p253). The music style should therefore be that preferred by the target audience (p280), and the preaching should focus on those passages that require no previous understanding and that “show the benefits of knowing Christ” (p298). The biblical justification for such a service is to “make the teaching about God our Savior attractive’” (Titus 2:10, pp269-270, emphasis his).

 

[jubilationtcornpone]

“God tells us to be sensitive to the hang-ups of unbelievers in our services. Being seeker sensitive in our worship is a biblical command” (p243) The Purpose Driven Life

Being seeker sensitive is not a biblical command, it's Rick Warren's way.

That's right. Rick Warren is misrepresenting what the Bible says.

Mind you, I'm not sayin we should be seeker-insensitive. Not at all. However, the Bible gives no particular command when it comes to seeker-sensitivity. By making this claim, Warren is stepping beyond what the Word teaches.

Are there elements of so-called "seeker-sensitivity" that are valid? I think so. I don't thin we should be obligated to wear suits to church, for example. Nor do I think that old, musty hymns are the only appropriate form of church music. However, much of what Warren teaches is either unbiblical or just plain unwise.

 

[Bill777]

That's right. Rick Warren is misrepresenting what the Bible says.

Mind you, I'm not sayin we should be seeker-insensitive. Not at all. However, the Bible gives no particular command when it comes to seeker-sensitivity. By making this claim, Warren is stepping beyond what the Word teaches.

Are there elements of so-called "seeker-sensitivity" that are valid? I think so. I don't thin we should be obligated to wear suits to church, for example. Nor do I think that old, musty hymns are the only appropriate form of church music. However, much of what Warren teaches is either unbiblical or just plain unwise.

Well, I agree. Let's look at this 19th century sermon that is so relevant today from http://www.biblebb.com/files/spurgeon/amusement.htm:

Feeding Sheep or Amusing Goats?

Charles Haddon Spurgeon
(1834-1892)

An evil is in the professed camp of the Lord, so gross in its impudence, that the most shortsighted can hardly fail to notice it during the past few years. It has developed at an abnormal rate, even for evil. It has worked like leaven until the whole lump ferments. The devil has seldom done a cleverer thing than hinting to the church that part of their mission is to provide entertainment for the people, with a view to winning them. ​

From speaking out as the Puritans did, the church has gradually toned down her testimony, then winked at and excused the frivolities of the day. Then she tolerated them in her borders. Now she has adopted them under the plea of reaching the masses.​

My first contention is that providing amusement for the people is nowhere spoken of in the Scriptures as a function of the church. If it is a Christian work, why did not Christ speak of it? "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature" (Mark 16:15). That is clear enough. So it would have been if He had added, "and provide amusement for those who do not relish the gospel." No such words, however, are to be found. It did not seem to occur to him.​

Then again, "He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some evangelists; and some pastors and teachers .., for the work of the ministry" (Eph. 4:11-12). Where do entertainers come in? The Holy Spirit is silent concerning them. Were the prophets persecuted because they amused the people or because they refused? The concert has no martyr roll. ​

Again, providing amusement is in direct antagonism to the teaching and life of Christ and all his apostles. What was the attitude of the church to the world? Ye are the salt" (Matt. 5:13), not the sugar candy---something the world will spit out not swallow. Short and sharp was the utterance, "Let the dead bury their dead" (Matt. 8:22) He was in awful earnestness.​

Had Christ introduced more of the bright and pleasant elements into his mission, he would have been more popular when they went back, because of the searching nature of His teaching. I do not hear him say, "Run after these people Peter and tell them we will have a different style of service tomorrow, something short and attractive with little preaching. We will have a pleasant evening for the people. Tell them they will be sure to enjoy it. Be quick Peter, we must get the people somehow." Jesus pitied sinners, sighed and wept over them, but never sought to amuse them.​

In vain will the Epistles be searched to find any trace of this gospel of amusement! Their message is, "Come out, keep out, keep clean out!" Anything approaching fooling is conspicuous by its absence. They had boundless confidence in the gospel and employed no other weapon.​

After Peter and John were locked up for preaching, the church had a prayer meeting but they did not pray, "Lord grant unto thy servants that by a wise and discriminating use of innocent recreation we may show these people how happy we are." If they ceased not from preaching Christ, they had not time for arranging entertainments. Scattered by persecution, they went everywhere preaching the gospel. They turned the world upside down (Acts 17:6). That is the only difference! Lord, clear the church of all the rot and rubbish the devil has imposed on her, and bring us back to apostolic methods.

Lastly, the mission of amusement fails to effect the end desired. It works havoc among young converts. Let the careless and scoffers, who thank God because the church met them halfway, speak and testify. Let the heavy laden who found peace through the concert not keep silent! Let the drunkard to whom the dramatic entertainment has been God's link in the chain of the conversion, stand up! There are none to answer. The mission of amusement produces no converts. The need of the hour for today's ministry is believing scholarship joined with earnest spirituality, the one springing from the other as fruit from the root. The need is biblical doctrine, so understood and felt, that it sets men on fire.​

 

[Veritas]

Although Warren's theology is of course not in keeping with Catholicism, it's interesting that he (inadvertently) rips words right out of the catechism:

I believe that we were made for a purpose, and that purpose is really to know God and to serve God and to love God

Baltimore Catechism:

"Our purpose is to know, love and serve God in this life and be happy with Him forever in the next"

 

[Quijote]

On the contrary, I think that evangelicals today don't have any sort of corporate understanding of salvation. It's entirely individualistic: Me, Jesus, and my Bible. This form of Christianity is very much anti-church. Not necessarily that church is considered bad, just that it has little value apart from "fellowship." The real worship, the real saving action, is separated from the church and is very individualistic. I don't think Warren quite gets this either (the PDL sounds very pietistic and almost social-gospel). Anyway, there is no spiritual growth apart from the church. We cannot retreat into our gnostic cloisters and pursue the "real" Christian growth by ourselves. There must needs be a corporate aspect.

This might be a bit off topic (or maybe a lot?) but what you describe sounds to me also what people refer to when they talk about 'spirituality' vs. 'religion'; ie, "oh, I don't like [organized] religion, I'm more of a spiritual person".

 

[Proeliator]

Well, I agree. Let's look at this 19th century sermon that is so relevant today from http://www.biblebb.com/files/spurgeon/amusement.htm:

Feeding Sheep or Amusing Goats?

Charles Haddon Spurgeon
(1834-1892)

An evil is in the professed camp of the Lord, so gross in its impudence, that the most shortsighted can hardly fail to notice it during the past few years. It has developed at an abnormal rate, even for evil. It has worked like leaven until the whole lump ferments. The devil has seldom done a cleverer thing than hinting to the church that part of their mission is to provide entertainment for the people, with a view to winning them. ​

From speaking out as the Puritans did, the church has gradually toned down her testimony, then winked at and excused the frivolities of the day. Then she tolerated them in her borders. Now she has adopted them under the plea of reaching the masses.​

My first contention is that providing amusement for the people is nowhere spoken of in the Scriptures as a function of the church. If it is a Christian work, why did not Christ speak of it? "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature" (Mark 16:15). That is clear enough. So it would have been if He had added, "and provide amusement for those who do not relish the gospel." No such words, however, are to be found. It did not seem to occur to him.​

Then again, "He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some evangelists; and some pastors and teachers .., for the work of the ministry" (Eph. 4:11-12). Where do entertainers come in? The Holy Spirit is silent concerning them. Were the prophets persecuted because they amused the people or because they refused? The concert has no martyr roll. ​

Again, providing amusement is in direct antagonism to the teaching and life of Christ and all his apostles. What was the attitude of the church to the world? Ye are the salt" (Matt. 5:13), not the sugar candy---something the world will spit out not swallow. Short and sharp was the utterance, "Let the dead bury their dead" (Matt. 8:22) He was in awful earnestness.​

Had Christ introduced more of the bright and pleasant elements into his mission, he would have been more popular when they went back, because of the searching nature of His teaching. I do not hear him say, "Run after these people Peter and tell them we will have a different style of service tomorrow, something short and attractive with little preaching. We will have a pleasant evening for the people. Tell them they will be sure to enjoy it. Be quick Peter, we must get the people somehow." Jesus pitied sinners, sighed and wept over them, but never sought to amuse them.​

In vain will the Epistles be searched to find any trace of this gospel of amusement! Their message is, "Come out, keep out, keep clean out!" Anything approaching fooling is conspicuous by its absence. They had boundless confidence in the gospel and employed no other weapon.​

After Peter and John were locked up for preaching, the church had a prayer meeting but they did not pray, "Lord grant unto thy servants that by a wise and discriminating use of innocent recreation we may show these people how happy we are." If they ceased not from preaching Christ, they had not time for arranging entertainments. Scattered by persecution, they went everywhere preaching the gospel. They turned the world upside down (Acts 17:6). That is the only difference! Lord, clear the church of all the rot and rubbish the devil has imposed on her, and bring us back to apostolic methods.

Lastly, the mission of amusement fails to effect the end desired. It works havoc among young converts. Let the careless and scoffers, who thank God because the church met them halfway, speak and testify. Let the heavy laden who found peace through the concert not keep silent! Let the drunkard to whom the dramatic entertainment has been God's link in the chain of the conversion, stand up! There are none to answer. The mission of amusement produces no converts. The need of the hour for today's ministry is believing scholarship joined with earnest spirituality, the one springing from the other as fruit from the root. The need is biblical doctrine, so understood and felt, that it sets men on fire.​

Beautiful!!! I love Spurgeon, and Edwards right behind him! They were great preachers to tell you that sinners go to hell. And then explain how to avoid that. THAT, to me, is what the preachers of this world need to get back too. If an unbeliever leaves a service and unbeliever, and ISNT offended, a preacher hasnt done their job.

 

[Paleoconservatarian]

This might be a bit off topic (or maybe a lot?) but what you describe sounds to me also what people refer to when they talk about 'spirituality' vs. 'religion'; ie, "oh, I don't like [organized] religion, I'm more of a spiritual person".

You're absolutely right. And I don't see how "religion" and "spirituality" are diametrical. A big part of this is a misunderstanding of the role of the Holy Spirit. The role of the Spirit is to connect us to Christ, not to Himself. And if we are not united with Christ's body, the Church, we're not connected to Christ. Spirituality and "organized religion" are one.

 

[Tinker Grey]

You're absolutely right. And I don't see how "religion" and "spirituality" are diametrical. A big part of this is a misunderstanding of the role of the Holy Spirit. The role of the Spirit is to connect us to Christ, not to Himself. And if we are not united with Christ's body, the Church, we're not connected to Christ. Spirituality and "organized religion" are one.

I tend to agree but I would emend your statement to read: The role of the Spirit is to connect us to the Father, not to Himself.

 

[Paleoconservatarian]

I tend to agree but I would emend your statement to read: The role of the Spirit is to connect us to the Father, not to Himself.

I would not, because that is not what Scripture teaches. The Holy Spirit's focus in His work in us is on Christ, not the Father. Our Lord said, "When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you" (John 16:13-15). It is the Spirit who unites us to Christ, and it is Christ who through this union gives us what is the Father's. The love of God is in Christ (Rom. 8:39). His grace is in Christ (2 Tim. 2:1). Our salvation is in Christ (2 Timothy 2:10). The eternal life that God gives us is in Christ (1 John 5:11). When the Father gives us life, wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption, it is in Christ (1 Cor. 1:30). Every spiritual blessing the Father gives us in heavenly places, is done in Christ (Eph. 1:3).

It's important that we understand the necessity of union with Christ. And once we understand this, it becomes clear why union with His church is necessary.

 

[MidnightCandel777]

Yes, salvation is personal. But our jobs as Christians is to reach a lost world, to show other the love of Christ. BY catering to the phisical need of one, it becomes easier to treat the spiritual needs as well.

 

[thereselittleflower]

OK, here's one of the biggest problems with Rick Warren's theology. Rick does not clearly emphasize that personal salvation is about the individual first, the saved believer. It's about serving other people and community a very distant second. I'm going to quote Rick from his book the purpose driven life and then from a Q&A with Larry King, where Rick shows a complete misunderstanding of personal christian growth. Certainly our approval before God is personal and not group based. Did the Lord tell Jeremiah or Ezekiel or any of the other prophets that keeping community with others was required to reach spiritual maturity. Absolutely not.

"Real spiritual growth is never an isolated, individualistic pursuit. Maturity is produced through relationships and community." page 11 of The purpose driven life book

"The last thing many believers need today is to go to another Bible study. They already know far more than they are putting into practice." (page 231) Purpose driven life



On March 22, 2005 on Larry King live Rick Warren answered:

KING: You can, though, Rick, have a purpose-driven life and be an agnostic or an atheist, can't you? Still do good, still help others, still have purpose?

WARREN: Absolutely, you can help other people. I believe that we were made for a purpose, and that purpose is really to know God and to serve God and to love God, and to serve other people by -- serve God by serving others. You know, you can't really serve God directly, Larry, not here on Earth. The only way you can serve God is by serving other people.

You know, I have had issues with other things in his purpose driven book, but this is absolutely NOT one of them!

Warren is dead on in what you quoted above from him.

This is absolutely true!

Christianity is not about "Me, Myself, and God"

True Christianity never was and never will be . . .


Jesus makes this clear over and over again . .

"Forgive us our sins AS (like) WE forgive those who sin against us"

"If you don't forgive your brother from your heart, neither will your Father in heaven forgive you your sins"

If you like, I will post an extensive list of things Jesus and the scriptures say about this . .


Christianity is about putting self last.



Peace

 

[Bill777]

You know, I have had issues with other things in his purpose driven book, but this is absolutely NOT one of them!

Warren is dead on in what you quoted above from him.

This is absolutely true!

Christianity is not about "Me, Myself, and God"

True Christianity never was and never will be . . .


Jesus makes this clear over and over again . .

"Forgive us our sins AS (like) WE forgive those who sin against us"

"If you don't forgive your brother from your heart, neither will your Father in heaven forgive you your sins"

If you like, I will post an extensive list of things Jesus and the scriptures say about this . .


Christianity is about putting self last.



Peace

I disagree. Christianity is first and foremost about a personal relationship between the believer and Jesus Christ. The first and most important commandment is to love God above everything else. The second commandment which is very important (but not as important as the first one) is to love your neighbour as yourself. On these two commandments rests the whole law as Jesus Christ taught.

If we have a strong personal relationship with Jesus Christ we can be thrown into a concentration camp or be persecuted and thrown into jail and still see the kingdom of heaven. We don't need the church at all. That's the beauty of it we ought not to fear man who can't punish us eternally but God who can do that.

As long as we can be with the Church I recommend that we be with it, fellowship with believers ought not to be forsaken. With that said It is important to have a strong personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and be ready to do without the church (fellowship with other believers). We may become extremely sick in our last days and not be able to attend service for example, and if we relied on the Church (fellow believers) instead of Christ we'd be doomed. Christ is the head of the Church by the way and He alone (without other believers) can satisfy all our needs, as he's done with many christians that had to live in isolation in the past. Let's not forget the Prophets or Moses in the desert or Paul when he was in jail, they were by themselves not attending any Church.

Now Bill Hybels / Rick Warren and the megachurch have done some great things. I may not think that the seeker sensitive model of preaching or doing church is biblical but I do believe that megachurches are doing a lot to make the world a better place to live, trying to humanize the world. Personally I think Rick Warren has brought to light many flaws in the old christianity that needed to be addressed, such as bringing in an informal dress code and modern music is great for the church. This modernism is welcome. The other great thing is teaching the world about good works. The purpose driven life book has been adopted by some large corporations as well that thought it was good for business to teach employees about meaning. I am delighted that Bill Hybels brings in businessmen to his annual Willow Creek leadership summit. Peter Drucker, who was Rick Warren's mentor is my favorite Management thinker, he emphasized the importance of people and knowledge workers like few others. His ideas helped humanize the workplace. So I'm a huge fan of Warren and Hybels from that perspective. Somebody needs to teach unbelievers, muslims, buddhists, and new agers about good works and practical things first and foremost. I would partner with Rick Warren or Bill Hybels any time outside church, I would even use their products in the workplace if the occasion arose, if I had to teach unbelievers I'd rather use Rick Warren's materials than those of a greedy person. With that said the only reason I would do that is because I don't think that the bible can be brought into the workplace, and you can't teach employees from the bible, without somebody having their feelings offended. But make no mistake I would not use Rick Warren's or Bill Hybels materials in Church, there I'd use the bible for preaching instead of seeker sensitive sermons. So Rick Warren's teachings and approach are awesome, they appeal to unbelievers (seekers) and they teach good living principles to the unbeliever, if we can't convert an unbeliever at least let's teach him to do good, and who knows he may be converted one day. From that perspective Rick Warren is one of the best guys out there, we ought to love him for his good work. I mean he teaches the unsaved good living standards, if we can't convert the sinner, let's teach him to do good should be our second choice. And Rick is doing a great job at that, the fact that seekers / unbelievers are comfortable with his teaching is awesome and ought to be celebrated by all of us christians. Now the just shall live by faith, but if people can't have faith, then it's better that they would have good works without faith rather than bad works. There is no question that the Seeker Sensitive Ministry is one of the biggest revolutions in the Church in the last 100 years.

 

[LinkH]

Bill wrote

Certainly our approval before God is personal and not group based.

While I don't care for the Rick Warren quote in response to Larry King's question, I don't like your quote above either.

God judges us as individuals and as groups. God judged Israel when Achan sinned, not just Achan.

We can't have a right relationship with God in our Christian walk if we neglect our relationship with others. Jesus said if you are presenting a gift at the altar (think of a lamb to be sacrificed in the temple for example,) your brother has something against you, first be reconciled to your brother, and then go and offer your gift.