Rich Warren & Joel Osteen preach the Daniel Diet!

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James 75

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Those given to Moses which were then given to the Jewish people.
God gave His laws to all twelve tribes of Israel and a large multitude of other people who came out of Egypt, not just the Jews.

That "I" don't want to obey? Huh?:doh:
Your answer is found in Ro. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

Is it God's law for "me" that I can not eat a ham sandwich or that I have to worship on Saturday instead of Sunday or any other day?
Yep, just like the rest of us. God does not have
two sets of laws, one for one group of people and one for another group of people. He is no respecter of persons.

No, the bible does not teach about a Saturday sabbath for the Christian. The scriptures teach that we are to worship God everyday not just on one day of the week. In fact, the early church worshiped on Sunday in remembrance of our Lord's resurrection. Are you saying that the early church did not "keep" God's sabbath?
God's Sabbath is kept by God's people throughout the Bible and still is.
We must worship God every day of our lives but we are commanded to come before God in a special assembly on His sabbath with others of God's people.
This is all pretty easy, it's all in the Bible.
The problem you have is a common one. You try to build without a foundation.
 
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Lysimachus

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I disagree. Joel Osteen has gone beyond false and is responsible for many immature Christians. He can't even profess that Jesus is the only way to salvation. Everything he says is suspect to me, even what turns out to be right which is not much.

You can believe as you wish but don't come here expecting us to agree with your legalistic theology. Faith does not include a checklist that tells us how good a "Christian" we are.

I believe that salvation is by Grace through faith alone, and not the works of the law. Just in case you didn't know.

As long as you fail to ascertain the difference between "obedience to God's law" and "works", you will never understand what I am really trying to say.

Salvation by works has nothing to do as to whether one should keep God's law or not. Whether salvation is by works or not, the law requires obedience. Salvation by works has to do with a wrong motive for keeping God's laws. In other words, you are performing them as a ticket to heaven, and are trusting to your own works rather than Christ working in you to do of His will and good pleasure (Philippians 2:13). It is when the Law of God is not written in your heart by the Spirit that it becomes "by works". The righteous requirements of the Law can only be met when we are IN CHRIST, and we are IN the Spirit. If you do not have this, it becomes salvation by works. And salvation by works will get you nowhere.

The law cannot save. It only defines sin. It only points it out. It can only condemn and kill. It is the ministration of death. This is why only those in Christ can meet its requirements. And once we are in Christ and living the life that Christ lived, then we are not sinning against the law. And therefore, the law has nothing against you, as you are not violating it.

The law has no saving power. Only the blood of the Lamb.

I repeat: WE (those of us who adhere to Adventist beliefs) do not believe whatsoever in salvation by works, nor do we believe that anyone is saved by anything they do.

Notice what Ellen White herself says on this matter:

"If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." 2 Corinthians 5:17.

A person may not be able to tell the exact time or place, or trace all the chain of circumstances in the process of conversion; but this does not prove him to be unconverted. Christ said to Nicodemus, "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is everyone that is born of the Spirit." John 3:8. Like the wind, which is invisible, yet the effects of which are plainly seen and felt, is the Spirit of God in its work upon the human heart. That regenerating power, which no human eye can see, begets a new life in the soul; it creates a new being in the image of God. While the work of the Spirit is silent and imperceptible, its effects are manifest. If the heart has been renewed by the Spirit of God, the life will bear witness to the fact. While we cannot do anything to change our hearts or to bring ourselves into harmony with God; while we must not trust at all to ourselves or our good works, our lives will reveal whether the grace of God is dwelling within us. A change will be seen in the character, the habits, the pursuits. The contrast will be clear and decided between what they have been and what they are. The character is revealed, not by occasional good deeds and occasional misdeeds, but by the tendency of the habitual words and acts.

It is true that there may be an outward correctness of deportment without the renewing power of Christ. The love of influence and the desire for the esteem of others may produce a well-ordered life. Self-respect may lead us to avoid the appearance of evil. A selfish heart may perform generous actions. By what means, then, shall we determine whose side we are on?

Who has the heart? With whom are our thoughts? Of whom do we love to converse? Who has our warmest affections and our best energies? If we are Christ's, our thoughts are with Him, and our sweetest thoughts are of Him. All we have and are is consecrated to Him. We long to bear His image, breathe His spirit, do His will, and please Him in all things.

Those who become new creatures in Christ Jesus will bring forth the fruits of the Spirit, "love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance." Galatians 5:22, 23. They will no longer fashion themselves according to the former lusts, but by the faith of the Son of God they will follow in His steps, reflect His character, and purify themselves even as He is pure. The things they once hated they now love, and the things they once loved they hate. The proud and self-assertive become meek and lowly in heart. The vain and supercilious become serious and unobtrusive. The drunken become sober, and the profligate pure. The vain customs and fashions of the world are laid aside. Christians will seek not the "outward adorning," but "the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit." 1 Peter 3:3, 4.

There is no evidence of genuine repentance unless it works reformation. If he restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, confess his sins, and love God and his fellow men, the sinner may be sure that he has passed from death unto life.

When, as erring, sinful beings, we come to Christ and become partakers of His pardoning grace, love springs up in the heart. Every burden is light, for the yoke that Christ imposes is easy. Duty becomes a delight, and sacrifice a pleasure. The path that before seemed shrouded in darkness, becomes bright with beams from the Sun of Righteousness.

The loveliness of the character of Christ will be seen in His followers. It was His delight to do the will of God. Love to God, zeal for His glory, was the controlling power in our Saviour's life. Love beautified and ennobled all His actions. Love is of God. The unconsecrated heart cannot originate or produce it. It is found only in the heart where Jesus reigns. "We love, because He first loved us." 1 John 4:19, R.V. In the heart renewed by divine grace, love is the principle of action. It modifies the character, governs the impulses, controls the passions, subdues enmity, and ennobles the affections. This love, cherished in the soul, sweetens the life and sheds a refining influence on all around.

There are two errors against which the children of God--particularly those who have just come to trust in His grace--especially need to guard. The first, already dwelt upon, is that of looking to their own works, trusting to anything they can do, to bring themselves into harmony with God. He who is trying to become holy by his own works in keeping the law, is attempting an impossibility. All that man can do without Christ is polluted with selfishness and sin. It is the grace of Christ alone, through faith, that can make us holy.

The opposite and no less dangerous error is that belief in Christ releases men from keeping the law of God; that since by faith alone we become partakers of the grace of Christ, our works have nothing to do with our redemption.

But notice here that obedience is not a mere outward compliance, but the service of love. The law of God is an expression of His very nature; it is an embodiment of the great principle of love, and hence is the foundation of His government in heaven and earth. If our hearts are renewed in the likeness of God, if the divine love is implanted in the soul, will not the law of God be carried out in the life? When the principle of love is implanted in the heart, when man is renewed after the image of Him that created him, the new-covenant promise is fulfilled, "I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them." Hebrews 10:16. And if the law is written in the heart, will it not shape the life? Obedience--the service and allegiance of love--is the true sign of discipleship. Thus the Scripture says, "This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments." "He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 John 5:3; 2:4. Instead of releasing man from obedience, it is faith, and faith only, that makes us partakers of the grace of Christ, which enables us to render obedience.

We do not earn salvation by our obedience; for salvation is the free gift of God, to be received by faith. But obedience is the fruit of faith. "Ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him." 1 John 3:5, 6. Here is the true test. If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in us, our feelings, our thoughts, our purposes, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God as expressed in the precepts of His holy law. "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous." 1 John 3:7. Righteousness is defined by the standard of God's holy law, as expressed in the ten precepts given on Sinai.

That so-called faith in Christ which professes to release men from the obligation of obedience to God, is not faith, but presumption. "By grace are ye saved through faith." But "faith, if it hath not works, is dead." Ephesians 2:8; James 2:17. Jesus said of Himself before He came to earth, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart." Psalm 40:8. And just before He ascended again to heaven He declared, "I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love." John 15:10. The Scripture says, "Hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. . . . He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to walk even as He walked." 1 John 2:3-6. "Because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow His steps." 1 Peter 2:21.

The condition of eternal life is now just what it always has been,--just what it was in Paradise before the fall of our first parents,--perfect obedience to the law of God, perfect righteousness. If eternal life were granted on any condition short of this, then the happiness of the whole universe would be imperiled. The way would be open for sin, with all its train of woe and misery, to be immortalized.

It was possible for Adam, before the fall, to form a righteous character by obedience to God's law. But he failed to do this, and because of his sin our natures are fallen and we cannot make ourselves righteous. Since we are sinful, unholy, we cannot perfectly obey the holy law. We have no righteousness of our own with which to meet the claims of the law of God. But Christ has made a way of escape for us. He lived on earth amid trials and temptations such as we have to meet. He lived a sinless life. He died for us, and now He offers to take our sins and give us His righteousness. If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned.

More than this, Christ changes the heart. He abides in your heart by faith. You are to maintain this connection with Christ by faith and the continual surrender of your will to Him; and so long as you do this, He will work in you to will and to do according to His good pleasure. So you may say, "The life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me." Galatians 2:20. So Jesus said to His disciples, "It is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you." Matthew 10:20. Then with Christ working in you, you will manifest the same spirit and do the same good works --works of righteousness, obedience.

So we have nothing in ourselves of which to boast. We have no ground for self-exaltation. Our only ground of hope is in the righteousness of Christ imputed to us, and in that wrought by His Spirit working in and through us.

When we speak of faith, there is a distinction that should be borne in mind. There is a kind of belief that is wholly distinct from faith. The existence and power of God, the truth of His word, are facts that even Satan and his hosts cannot at heart deny. The Bible says that "the devils also believe, and tremble;" but this is not faith. James 2:19. Where there is not only a belief in God's word, but a submission of the will to Him; where the heart is yielded to Him, the affections fixed upon Him, there is faith--faith that works by love and purifies the soul. Through this faith the heart is renewed in the image of God. And the heart that in its unrenewed state is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be, now delights in its holy precepts, exclaiming with the psalmist, "O how love I Thy law! it is my meditation all the day." Psalm 119:97. And the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us, "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:1....​

(Continued...)
 
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Lysimachus

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(Continued...)

...There are those who have known the pardoning love of Christ and who really desire to be children of God, yet they realize that their character is imperfect, their life faulty, and they are ready to doubt whether their hearts have been renewed by the Holy Spirit. To such I would say, Do not draw back in despair. We shall often have to bow down and weep at the feet of Jesus because of our shortcomings and mistakes, but we are not to be discouraged. Even if we are overcome by the enemy, we are not cast off, not forsaken and rejected of God. No; Christ is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Said the beloved John, "These things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." 1 John 2:1. And do not forget the words of Christ, "The Father Himself loveth you." John 16:27. He desires to restore you to Himself, to see His own purity and holiness reflected in you. And if you will but yield yourself to Him, He that hath begun a good work in you will carry it forward to the day of Jesus Christ. Pray more fervently; believe more fully. As we come to distrust our own power, let us trust the power of our Redeemer, and we shall praise Him who is the health of our countenance.

The closer you come to Jesus, the more faulty you will appear in your own eyes; for your vision will be clearer, and your imperfections will be seen in broad and distinct contrast to His perfect nature. This is evidence that Satan's delusions have lost their power; that the vivifying influence of the Spirit of God is arousing you.

No deep-seated love for Jesus can dwell in the heart that does not realize its own sinfulness. The soul that is transformed by the grace of Christ will admire His divine character; but if we do not see our own moral deformity, it is unmistakable evidence that we have not had a view of the beauty and excellence of Christ.

The less we see to esteem in ourselves, the more we shall see to esteem in the infinite purity and loveliness of our Saviour. A view of our sinfulness drives us to Him who can pardon; and when the soul, realizing its helplessness, reaches out after Christ, He will reveal Himself in power. The more our sense of need drives us to Him and to the word of God, the more exalted views we shall have of His character, and the more fully we shall reflect His image.

-------------------------------------------------

~ Taken from the best-seller book "Steps to Christ", pages 57-65 :)

Now let me ask you a question Hentenza.

How can you possibly disagree with what was just quoted above?

How?
 
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katherine2001

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But Jesus told us that if we love Him, we will keep His Commandments. You might also want to look at the last passage of Matt. 25, where Jesus tells a parable about the Last Judgment. He makes it clear that those who don't feed the hungry, clothe the naked, take in the stranger, give drink to the thirsty, and don't visit those who are sick and in prison will not be in the Kingdom. Also, James makes it quite clear that faith and works go together. Without works, your faith is dead.
 
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Hentenza

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God gave His laws to all twelve tribes of Israel and a large multitude of other people who came out of Egypt, not just the Jews.

The 12 Tribes ARE the Jewish people. There were no gentiles among those that left Egypt. The law was given ONLY to Israel not to any gentiles.

Your answer is found in Ro. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with this topic unless you are accusing me of having a carnal mind. Romans 8 does not teach that the Mosaic law is required of the Christian. In fact, it teaches the opposite. Verse mining apart from context will lead you false doctrine 100% of the time.

Yep, just like the rest of us. God does not have
two sets of laws, one for one group of people and one for another group of people. He is no respecter of persons.

So eating a ham sandwich has salvific implications? Pleeeeeeeese:doh:

16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His [e]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him (and doesn't eat a ham sandwich and worships God on Saturday) shall not perish, but have eternal life.(parenthesis mine):doh:


God's Sabbath is kept by God's people throughout the Bible and still is.

So worshiping on Sunday is OK? Cause must of us and the early church worshiped on Sunday not on Saturday.


We must worship God every day of our lives but we are commanded to come before God in a special assembly on His sabbath with others of God's people.

Nope. Nowhere in scripture is the Christian commanded to worship God on Saturday. I challenge you to provide a verse that teaches so.

This is all pretty easy, it's all in the Bible.

Nope.

The problem you have is a common one. You try to build without a foundation.

Jesus is the foundation. Read 1 Corinthians 3. Is very enlightening. However, those that follow the law will be judged by the whole law. Good luck with that one since only one has ever been able to keep it perfectly.
 
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James 75

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The 12 Tribes ARE the Jewish people. There were no gentiles among those that left Egypt. The law was given ONLY to Israel not to any gentiles.
Which has absolutely nothing to do with this topic unless you are accusing me of having a carnal mind. Romans 8 does not teach that the Mosaic law is required of the Christian. In fact, it teaches the opposite. Verse mining apart from context will lead you false doctrine 100% of the time.
So eating a ham sandwich has salvific implications? Pleeeeeeeese:doh:
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His [e]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him (and doesn't eat a ham sandwich and worships God on Saturday) shall not perish, but have eternal life.(parenthesis mine):doh:
So worshiping on Sunday is OK? Cause must of us and the early church worshiped on Sunday not on Saturday.
Nope. Nowhere in scripture is the Christian commanded to worship God on Saturday. I challenge you to provide a verse that teaches so.
Nope.
Jesus is the foundation. Read 1 Corinthians 3. Is very enlightening. However, those that follow the law will be judged by the whole law. Good luck with that one since only one has ever been able to keep it perfectly.

Thank you. You make my point even better than I did. Talk about :doh:!
 
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Frogster

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Galatians
2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as [the gospel] of the circumcision [was] unto Peter;
2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we [should go] unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
2:10 Only [they would] that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.
2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before [them] all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
2:15 We [who are] Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.​

I don't see anything being discussed here about "silly" food laws. Paul rebuked Peter for separating himself from sitting down to eat with the Jews. Remember, Peter thought the Gentiles were unclean. This is how the Jews thought of the Gentiles. They would not even eat with them.

The issue here is clear:

1. Circumcision as to whether it is applicable or not.

2. Whether gentiles who were not circumcised were to be considered unclean.

Paul rightly rebuked Peter for departing from the Gentiles to eat somewhere else.

Excuse me, but the Antioch event recorded in 2, was not about circumcision!

Lets try to see that Galatians is about 3 different events!:D He was separating from Gentiles not the Jews, as per the red above.^_^

It says Peter was EATING with Gentiles, not playing Monopoply, and it has to be the breaking of Mosaic food laws, or why else did Paul go into the law issue, and what else would declare the gentiles to be sinners in 2;15, but Mosaic food laws? Why would Paul go into works justification in 2;16 talking the law, if it were not Mosaic issues with Peter?

Welcome to my back yard.:wave:
 
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Frogster

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But Jesus told us that if we love Him, we will keep His Commandments. You might also want to look at the last passage of Matt. 25, where Jesus tells a parable about the Last Judgment. He makes it clear that those who don't feed the hungry, clothe the naked, take in the stranger, give drink to the thirsty, and don't visit those who are sick and in prison will not be in the Kingdom. Also, James makes it quite clear that faith and works go together. Without works, your faith is dead.

this is about keeping antiquated jewish food laws.:)
 
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Lysimachus

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It is so dangerous to think that God says "salvation is this way for you Gentiles, and salvation is that way for you Jews."

That contradicts scripture:

John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.​

This is not, of course, saying that only Jews can be saved. The point is, God made known the way of salvation to the Jews. He had to start somewhere. He could have picked the Phillistines for all we know, but he started with the Jews. It began with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (God could have picked Gog, Goliath, and Tiglath Peleser for all we know, but he didn't). It was the mission of these people that God chose to take the message of salvation to the entire world, and all nations would have been blessed and "included" in the community of God--all under one nation--God's kingdom, and Christ as our King.

Since the way of salvation was made known to the Jews, it can truly be said that "salvation is of the Jews".

All those who become born again, become an Israelite indeed after the Spirit, and not after the flesh. We will obey God's laws from the heart. We will do what we can to preserve our Temples. We may not be perfect, but God sees our desire to become more and more like Him.
 
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Frogster

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God gave His laws to all twelve tribes of Israel and a large multitude of other people who came out of Egypt, not just the Jews.

Your answer is found in Ro. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

Yep, just like the rest of us. God does not have
two sets of laws, one for one group of people and one for another group of people. He is no respecter of persons.


God's Sabbath is kept by God's people throughout the Bible and still is.
We must worship God every day of our lives but we are commanded to come before God in a special assembly on His sabbath with others of God's people.
This is all pretty easy, it's all in the Bible.
The problem you have is a common one. You try to build without a foundation.

feel free to give a brief expository of acts 15..:thumbsup:
 
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Frogster

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It is so dangerous to think that God says "salvation is this way for you Gentiles, and salvation is that way for you Jews."

That contradicts scripture:

John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.​

This is not, of course, saying that only Jews can be saved. The point is, God made known the way of salvation to the Jews. He had to start somewhere. He could have picked the Phillistines for all we know, but he started with the Jews. It began with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (God could have picked Gog, Goliath, and Tiglath Peleser for all we know, but he didn't). It was the mission of these people that God chose to take the message of salvation to the entire world, and all nations would have been blessed and "included" in the community of God--all under one nation--God's kingdom, and Christ as our King.

Since the way of salvation was made known to the Jews, it can truly be said that "salvation is of the Jews".

All those who become born again, become an Israelite indeed after the Spirit, and not after the flesh. We will obey God's laws from the heart. We will do what we can to preserve our Temples. We may not be perfect, but God sees our desire to become more and more like Him.

that is just talking lineage, as per rom 9.5, we are of abraham the gentile, study rom 4, it was allll about pre-circumcision.:D
 
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Lysimachus

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Excuse me, but the Antioch event recorded in 2, was not about circumcision!

Lets try to see that Galatians is about 3 different events!:D He was separating from Gentiles not the Jews, as per the red above.^_^

It says Peter was EATING with Gentiles, not playing Monopoply, and it has to be the breaking of Mosaic food laws, or why else did Paul go into the law issue, and what else would declare the gentiles to be sinners in 2;15, but Mosaic food laws? Why would Paul go into works justification in 2;16 talking the law, if it were not Mosaic issues with Peter?

Welcome to my back yard.:wave:

Then you are on your own little boat, because all traditional Christians that I have talked to agree that the issue here had to do with Peter sitting down and eating with Gentiles.

The issue had nothing to do with what Peter was eating. It was that he was eating WITH Gentiles, and separated himself. For this he was rebuked. Not for eating clean meats with the Gentiles. Seriously? I'm having a hard time wrapping my head how you can read such a thing into the text.

This becomes more apparent in what Peter himself stated after God gave him a vision of all the unclean beasts:

Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath showed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

11:1 And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
11:2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,
11:3 Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.
11:4 But Peter rehearsed [the matter] from the beginning, and expounded [it] by order unto them, saying,
11:5 I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:
11:6 Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
11:7 And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.
11:8 But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.
11:9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, [that] call not thou common.​

It's so clear. The issue has nothing to do with whether it is okay to eat clean or unclean meats. The issue had to do with Peter considering the Gentiles unclean. This is why Paul had to rebuke Peter. He had this weakness.

Jews considered uncircumcised Gentiles unclean people. It was forbidden to sit down and eat with them. The issue is a social matter. God gave Peter a vision of unclean animals to symbolize and represent the Gentiles in whom the Jews considered unclean. But as we have already seen from Acts 10:28, the meaning of the dream became clear to him---the unclean animals (which the Jews considered the Gentiles) in the vision were actually men, not animals.
 
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Frogster

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Then you are on your own little boat, because all traditional Christians that I have talked to agree that the issue here had to do with Peter sitting down and eating with Gentiles.

The issue had nothing to do with what Peter was eating. It was that he was eating WITH Gentiles, and separated himself. For this he was rebuked. Not for eating clean meats with the Gentiles. Seriously? I'm having a hard time wrapping my head how you can read such a thing into the text.

This becomes more apparent in what Peter himself stated after God gave him a vision of all the unclean beasts:

Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath showed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

11:1 And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
11:2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,
11:3 Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.
11:4 But Peter rehearsed [the matter] from the beginning, and expounded [it] by order unto them, saying,
11:5 I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:
11:6 Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
11:7 And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.
11:8 But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.
11:9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, [that] call not thou common.​

It's so clear. The issue has nothing to do with whether it is okay to eat clean or unclean meats. The issue had to do with Peter considering the Gentiles unclean. This is why Paul had to rebuke Peter. He had this weakness.

Jews considered uncircumcised Gentiles unclean people. God gave Peter a vision of unclean animals to symbolize and represent the Gentiles in whom the Jews considered unclean. But as we have already seen from Acts 10:28, the meaning of the dream became clear to Him---the unclean animals (which the Jews considered the Gentiles) were actually men, not animals.

no no no..did the jews eat gentile food?:p

what was the issue? he was EATING..EATING..with gentiles, that is the context.

and why is the context established in 14? he was living as a gentile, until the law people came.


tell me.. does 14 not show a change in direction?..how was peter living, prior till the law people came? it says..LIVE..LIVE. that would have included diet, and the connection to the EATING of verse 12.:p

You're acting like it was about a poker game, when we all know the mosaic food laws were a huge issue among the jews and gentiles.


14But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, "If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?"

How can he previously LIVE AS A GENTILE? And eat unclean food?

thanks, your pal frog.:)
 
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Since when is the NT required to repeat every single thing that is still obligatory from the OT in the NT?

Not every single thing, but you claim that these are a command from God and vitally important.
If they were, Jesus would have said so. If it was imperative for Gentiles to keep them he would have also said so, and told the Gentiles whom he healed to obey them.

The law was given to the Israelites at Mount Sinai. It was the Israelites who had been slaves in Egypt, were rescued by God, led to his holy mountain to receive his law on their way to the land which God had promised to their ancestors. The food laws were given to them, and you think that I, as a Gentile, have been commanded by God to obey them?

Jesus was God in the flesh, came to reveal God, teach us about him and show us his love. He taught us many things about love, forgiveness, calling God Father, receiving the Holy Spirit and that his blood was being shed for the sins of the world. He did give us a new command; to love as he loved us. But the only thing he said about food is that NOTHING which goes into a person's mouth can make him unclean.

Jesus nor the Disciples said anything about beastality either.

No, but that is not loving as Jesus loved, so we shouldn't do it. And if we truly love God and our neighbour, we wouldn't want to.

The Ten Commandments are the "basic" foundation.

Which mention nothing at all about food and what not to eat.

There is a law that is tied to not eating pork.
It says "thou shalt not murder".

I don't think so! What do you think the Jews did to animals they needed to sacrifice for their sins, or the annual Passover lamb?

When you willfully put foods into our mouth that you know are harmful to your health, based on the science, you are breaking this commandment by killing yourself and abusing your body.

YOU say this, the NT doesn't.

The grand Ten are the foundation, all the others are extensions and elaborations...and Christ elaborated on these Ten more than anyone.

The 10 commandments are summed up in 2; love God and love your neighbour. Eating pork doesn't harm or upset either.

Christ elaborated on these Ten more than anyone.

Yes and he did not teach that abstaining form pork was compulsory for Gentiles.

They are BROAD in their meaning. For example, when God says "thou shalt not steal", it also means to not steal God's time. When we waste time, we are stealing God's time. When we are addicted to something, we are putting that above God.

And they say nothing about food laws, what to eat or wear, what job to take and how to live your every day life.

The Ten mentions nothing about fornication either. But fornication falls under the heading of adultery. Just like eating toxic and unclean foods falls under the heading of not killing or murdering.

Right, so you're a vegetarian then? The only thing you kill are plants? Even though Jesus and the disciples ate meat - lamb every Passover and the disciples were fishermen - you claim that killing animals is murder.
You're saying the disciples were all murderers and Jesus ate the produce of murder? I think you need to think this through.

So many Christians are going to be lost because they continued to think that what they do has no part in their salvation.

Umm, it doesn't. We are saved because of what JESUS has done - i.e died for our sins on the cross.
You are linking the eating of pork to eternal damnation?

It's hard to even imagine that we are having this conversation. I mean, I don't just refrain from pork and unclean meats, I do not eat any meat at all. I mean, I do not just refrain from eating meat at all, I am a vegan vegetarian and have not touched dairy products for 21 years.

Well good for you, that is your choice and your right. But you can't force your lifestyle on anyone else, far less insist that the New Testament demands it.

Why can't we get past the basic elementary so we can advance to the next?

It's not a "basic elementary". Abstaining from pork has nothing to do with salvation and was not taught or commanded by Jesus. There is no Scripture which says that God expects it of us. It doesn't save. Jesus saves, NOTHING else.

Pork is a sin. It is detestable. It is an abomination.

YOU say that; the NT doesn't.

ANYTHING abominable in the OT transfers into the NT.

Really? Where does it say that then?
Some of the things they did in the OT sound fairly abominable - like killing and stoning people to death. And you've just said that killing people is murder and forbidden in the 10 commandments. Should we stone people to death too?

So when Christians quote Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13, they are willing to go so far and show how these are applicable, but suddenly when it comes to the dietary laws, they do not apply.

Not "suddenly", they never DID apply to Gentiles.

Abstaining from pork does not save. Jesus saves. Food laws given to the Jews have nothing to do with salvation. End of - they just don't.
No way am I giving praise and credit for my salvation to a pig - it's not going to happen, no way. Jesus saves - claiming that pork has anything to do with it is denying what he has done for us.

Did I mention that Jesus saves and pork doesn't?
 
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Hentenza

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I believe that salvation is by Grace through faith alone, and not the works of the law. Just in case you didn't know.

Unfortunately when you make other things as requirements then you are just paying lip service to the above.

As long as you fail to ascertain the difference between "obedience to God's law" and "works", you will never understand what I am really trying to say.

As long as you continue to misunderstand that the law is but a tutor to lead us to Christ and that its work is done when we are in Christ then you will fail to ascertain what the 'works" of God actually are. Hint: you are boasting on your "proper" eating etiquette.



Salvation by works has nothing to do as to whether one should keep God's law or not. Whether salvation is by works or not, the law requires obedience. Salvation by works has to do with a wrong motive for keeping God's laws. In other words, you are performing them as a ticket to heaven, and are trusting to your own works rather than Christ working in you to do of His will and good pleasure (Philippians 2:13). It is when the Law of God is not written in your heart by the Spirit that it becomes "by works". The righteous requirements of the Law can only be met when we are IN CHRIST, and we are IN the Spirit. If you do not have this, it becomes salvation by works. And salvation by works will get you nowhere.

Keeping the law is ALWAYS for the wrong motives since we have the ministry of the Spirit to guides us now. I do not need to be convicted of my sins by the law since the Holy Spirit is the one that convicts me of my sins. Phillippians 2:13 has nothing to do with the Mosaic law.


The law cannot save. It only defines sin. It only points it out. It can only condemn and kill. It is the ministration of death. This is why only those in Christ can meet its requirements. And once we are in Christ and living the life that Christ lived, then we are not sinning against the law. And therefore, the law has nothing against you, as you are not violating it.

The law only defines sin for the unbeliever not for the believer. The Holy Spirit is the one that defines sin for the believer. Secondly, the law does not define sin for the believer since the law does not address the impurities of the heart. Many a Pharisee kept the law and yet, they were refuted by Jesus to the point of calling them unbelievers.



The law has no saving power. Only the blood of the Lamb.

Right.

I repeat: WE (those of us who adhere to Adventist beliefs) do not believe whatsoever in salvation by works, nor do we believe that anyone is saved by anything they do.

When you panhandle the law as a necessary requirement for the Christian you are proposing a works salvation. You can deny it all you want but your actions betrays you. I have seen many an Adventist question other Christians salvation because they do not follow the Mosaic law. I just responded to law adherent that told me that eating a ham sandwich has salvific consequences and you are yet to answer the questions that I posed to you a few posts back.


Notice what Ellen White herself says on this matter:

The problem with the words of Ellen White is that she was a denier of the deity of Christ and a contemporary of the likes such as Charles T. Russell. She was a confirmed false prophetess which would have been stoned outside of the gates if she would have lived during OT times. She redefines the common Christian theological words to fit her false teachings so, even though her words sound good, their meaning are not consistent with mainstream Christianity. Jesus was not a mere man but the Son of God, 100% man and 100% deity. His dual nature is necessary to atone for our sins and justify God's justice. No mere man can justify God's justice so the "Christ" that she preaches is not the Christ of scripture.


Now let me ask you a question Hentenza.

How can you possibly disagree with what was just quoted above?

How?

See above.
 
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Hentenza

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It is so dangerous to think that God says "salvation is this way for you Gentiles, and salvation is that way for you Jews."

That contradicts scripture:
John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.​
This is not, of course, saying that only Jews can be saved. The point is, God made known the way of salvation to the Jews. He had to start somewhere. He could have picked the Phillistines for all we know, but he started with the Jews. It began with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (God could have picked Gog, Goliath, and Tiglath Peleser for all we know, but he didn't). It was the mission of these people that God chose to take the message of salvation to the entire world, and all nations would have been blessed and "included" in the community of God--all under one nation--God's kingdom, and Christ as our King.

Since the way of salvation was made known to the Jews, it can truly be said that "salvation is of the Jews".

All those who become born again, become an Israelite indeed after the Spirit, and not after the flesh. We will obey God's laws from the heart. We will do what we can to preserve our Temples. We may not be perfect, but God sees our desire to become more and more like Him.

And that is what happens when you quote verses devoid of context.

Acts 28
28 Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will also listen.”

I am not an Israelite. I never will be an Israelite and neither are you. Their time will come after the time of the gentiles has ended.
 
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The Ten mentions nothing about fornication either. But fornication falls under the heading of adultery. Just like eating toxic and unclean foods falls under the heading of not killing or murdering.
Had to walk away and laugh on this one. What an embarassing statement. I guess you haven't read about Noah. What you say would mean that God told Noah to sin.
3Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. Gen 9

Not to mention that this kind of statement also makes God (Jesus) a murderer. Jesus ate meat. Even if He didn't do the deed He participated in the results. Sacrifice is taking the life of the innocent and mandated by the law. Thus according to you the law demanded sin.

You're just way to far off base to not be funny. I'll say you do have a very interesting web of deception. Works only on the ignorant.
 
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