Rich Man and Lazarus

[adam332]

Rich Man and Lazarus

Christ told a very important parable(Luke 16:19-31), that holds significance on many levels. Before we begin to unwrap it’s meaning, it would be necessary to emphasize some important facts.

{a.} Chapter 16 of Luke is about “stewardship”, yet some seem locked in to the idea that this parable(v.19-31) holds literal clues to the state of the dead and/or heaven and hell.

If one keeps their focus on the “tone” of this entire chapter, it is hard to miss the message that is clearly given throughout. Also equally important is, to whom Christ was addressing when He spoke told this, the Jewish Pharisees(v.14). Knowing these two contextual facts is key to identifying the message that Christ was conveying.

{b.} This is a parable and parables are not “literal“. Never in the Bible does it tell us to accept parables literally. This is precisely what makes them a parable. Webster’s Dictionary defines a parable as; "a story that illustrates a moral lesson". The moral of the story is all we are to take away from a parable. The fact is, there are over 250 parables in the Bible and less that 1 out of every 4 of those were actually labeled as a parable.

If one were to take every Biblical parable literally, we would find plenty of items that would be difficult to explain in literal terms. Such as in Jdg. 9:7-15, Jotham spoke in a parable that was completely imaginary, about talking trees and brambles. Also, in Eze. 23:1-4, he records the Parable of Two Sisters, in which proper names are used in parabolic symbolism. As you can see, it would not be sensible to give “literal equivalents” to “symbolic terms” used in a “fictitious parable”. Instead one must seek out “the moral of the story” to find the message contained therein.

{c.} The phrase "a certain rich man",is only mentioned 3 times in the Bible, (Luke12:16, Luke 16:1, Luke 16:19). All 3 are found in Luke, and all 3 were spoken by Christ. The first two examples are agreed by most, to be parables about stewardship. But, the third usage is said not to be a parable, by those who wish to claim it as evidence that supports their view on death. Even though we have the same context, which is again, about stewardship, still many claim coincidence. Here we see more than mere coincidence, we see a pattern.

When reading the first use of this phrase(“a certain rich man“), in Luke 12:16,we see it followed by parable after parable. Chapter after chapter filled with parables and very little else all the way through chp. 16. Below are but some examples of these parables recorded by Luke...

Good Samaritan -Luke 10:29-37

Persistent Friend -Luke 11:5-10

Lighted Candle -Luke 11:33-36

Expectant Steward -Luke 12:35-40

Fig Tree -Luke 13:6-9

Great Supper -Luke 14:16-24

Lost Coin -Luke 15:8-10

Lost Son -Luke 15:11-32

Unjust Servant -Luke 16:1-13

Rich Man and Lazarus -Luke 16:19-31

Please note; that are not the only parables to be found in these chapters. As mentioned before, those chapters were almost completely filled with parables. What makes these parables so notable is that; not one of them was labeled as “a parable“, and none of them were recorded by any of the other Bible authors besides Luke!

The Parable

Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, making good cheer in splendour every day.

The “rich man” is wearing distinctive clothing, these are identified as the clothes granted to the High Priest of the Israelite people.

Exo. 28:5 And they shall take gold, and blue, and PURPLE, and scarlet, AND FINE LINEN.

Luke 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

Luke 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

Here we see the beggar down with the dogs, waiting for crumbs to fall from the rich man’s table. These same symbolic terms have been employed before, which helps reveal the identity of the “beggar”, the “crumbs” and also confirms the identity of the “rich man”.

Matt. 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to DOGS. 27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the DOGS eat of the CRUMBS which fall from their MASTERS TABLE.

Here we see that the Gentile lady is being symbolized as “dogs”,the “crumbs of bread” as the gospel message, and the “masters“ as the Jews. Remember, the bread is the word, and Christ is the “bread”, (John 6:35). Christ came to minister to the Israelites, (Mat. 15:24, 1Cor. 9:20), yet this Gentile woman was asking Christ to share himself. Like the beggar, she was desiring “crumbs” from the “masters” table.

The Jews, whom Christ was addressing in this parable, believed the Gospel was theirs by birthright, but...

“...UNTO WHOMSOEVER MUCH IS GIVEN, OF HIM SHALL BE MUCH REQUIRED...”, (Luke 12:48).

They were spiritually rich, (Luke 6:24-25, Rom. 11:12), for they had the one true message of God, and they had been commissioned to take the Word to the Gentiles, (Isa. 49:6).

Isa. 42:6 Ithe LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, FOR A LIGHT OF THE GENTILES;

But, they didn’t spread the message, they hoarded it instead. Remember, the focus of Luke 16 is stewardship! They failed to be good stewards with the Word that God had entrusted to them. The Jews considered Gentiles to be lower than them. “Dogs” and “unclean” were common terms they used when speaking of them, (Act 10:28, Mark 7:27-28, Matt. 15:26,27).

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

“It came to pass”(v.22) shows the passing of time and that this scene has been taken to it’s future conclusion as the result of their poor stewardship. It is also apparent that this is a future event because of the angels that will carry the righteous dead to there glorious place, this occurs at Christ's second coming.

Mat.24:31 And he shall send HIS ANGELS with a great sound of a trumpet, and they SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send HIS ANGELS, and SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

 

[adam332]

PART-2



Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

There are 4 items found together in only two places in the Bible, one of which we just saw in v.22 & 23.

1. Angels taking someone to a good place.

2. Abraham is also in the good place.

3. Someone being tormented in a bad place.

4. The person in the bad place is able to see Abraham.

Notice carefully below, that again it is Luke who records the same imagery!

Luke 13:28 There shall be WEEPING AND GNASHING of teeth, when ye shall SEE ABRAHAM, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall SIT DOWN IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

This comes from the Parable of the Strait Gate, (also see Mat. 7:13,14). And, as one can plainly tell in this parable as well, it is referring to the elect being gathered by the angels from the four corners of the earth, (Mat.24:31, Mark 13:27), at the coming of Christ. This torment that will occur to the wicked, at the coming of Christ, it is said to have a weeping and gnashing of teeth according to this parable found in Luke 13. These 4 items found together in only these two places; is one of the strongest indications that this is not a literal story, but yet a future prophetic event, specifically the second coming.

Those being tormented “see Abraham”(Isa. 52:10),while they are thrust out! The twist is; we now see the beggar, (Gentiles) in the bosom of Abraham. The father of the Jews takes the Gentiles into his bosom and the rich man, (Jews), dies and is in torment.

Christ couldn’t haven’t been much clearer, salvation didn’t belong only to the Jews, and they had been poor stewards with the commission God had bestowed upon them.

Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Notice he is asking Father Abraham, showing that they are still placing assurance of salvation in their bloodline, instead of God. This can be also seen in John 8:37-42, where they told Christ that Abraham was their Father. They have placed Abraham in substitution of God as proof of their salvation. God is the only father and salvation only comes through the Son, (1Thes. 5:9, 2Tim. 2:10, 2Tim.3:15, Heb. 5:9, Heb. 9:28). They gave Abraham both divine title, (Father), and divine power, (salvation), to a man! Christ warns again that true worshipping is reserved, for God the Father...

John 4:23-24 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship

the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a

Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Now, when judgment is finalized and the torments of this bad steward have begun, he is asking for a drop of water. Ironically similar to the Gentiles hoping for just a crumb from the masters table.

Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

After all the spiritual and physical gifts and prosperity God had lavished on them for centuries, they were greedy with the divine word of God. They simply, reaped what they sowed (Job 4:8), which is the heart of the message found in this parable. Those who try to keep salvation for themselves, will lose it!

Mat. 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.

This great gulf is the distance between those who are tormented, and those who are taken to the kingdom of heaven, at the coming of Christ, (Luke 13:28). Or, it even more appropriately could be the end of judgment, signifying that there’s no turning back because the day of the Lord is already upon them, like a thief.

Luke 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

Here again, we see the rich man(Jews) praying to father Abraham, this of course is forbidden by the second commandment(Exo. 20:33) and condemned by Christ to the Pharisees, (John 8). Remember, it is the Pharisees to whom He is speaking this parable.

Luke 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

The rich man is asking for five of his brethren to be warned, not to come to this place of torments. Abraham has informed the rich man what his fate is and what the consequences for his actions are, (v.25,26). We see that he now wants Lazarus to be sent back, to “testify” to those five brethren to whom they had been commissioned to share the Word with, so long ago. But, it is to late, the “great gulf” has been ”fixed”, their probation is long over.

The “five brethren” are symbolically represented as the brothers of the rich man (Jews). The term “Jews” comes from those who are in the tribe of Judah, and Judah had exactly five full blooded brothers, Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, and Zebulun, (Gen. 29:32-30:20). Thus again confirming that the Jews are being symbolized by the “rich man” .

Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

Luke 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

These last three verses, are the perfect topping for this parable. One could paraphrase this as; “Why should all nations listen to the word or believe in the resurrection of Lazarus, we didn’t?“. A somber thought indeed, and a warning of history repeating itself. Also, a very similar warning, not to repeat the Israelites mistakes, was issued the Gentiles by Paul.

Rom. 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Christ was wise when he spoke in parable, he gave the Jews many warnings. This warning, that one needed Moses and the prophets to identify Him, was not alone. This portion of John 5 emphasizes this in more detail.

John 5:39-47 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

I receive not honour from men. But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.

I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that [cometh] from God only? Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is [one] that accuseth you, [even] Moses, in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?”

This brilliant parable has many terms and concepts intertwined to express a moral truth, which is the principal behind a Biblical parable. It was a stern warning and rebuke to the Jewish nation, regarding their poor stewardship and the consequences for their iniquities. As well as a prophetic glimpse at the resurrection of Lazarus which was the sealing of Christ’s fate and evidence of His identity, which they still refused to believe, (John 11:46-53, Luke 16:31). Most importantly for those reading it today, it is a reminder for the commissioned individual not to be “highminded”, or we might just find ourselves “cut off”, and “thrust out” of the kingdom of God as well!

 

[Roald]

Adam,

If the rich man is in Hell, then how do you reconcile his compassion for his brothers? Do you accept that the ****** experience love, or this not a problem because you see this as a parable?

 

[adam332]

Interesting question. No it does not present a problem for me because the spiritual lesson is what is to be gathered. As with the many such items that were expressed to the pharisees...Christ often portrayed the non-Jew as being saved while those like the Pharisees were said to be in anguish at his coming. This picture that he gives is is not alone, but actually quite repetitive.

As to whether one may feel regret and or compassion for others, as this anguish is happening to them. frankly I'm not sure. I will have to search through his other very similar prophetic rebukes to the fate of the Pharisees and see if anything matches up with that particular idea.

 

[adam332]

Ok here it is...I am still searching about whether there are any that show they feel compassion for others...but there are quite a few which show their regret after the gulf is fixed, aka the door is shut...

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

________

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

_________

24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.

_________

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
_________
_________

Interestingly, even though we have several examples of them pleading with regret, there is one that says they are "speechless". There are definitely many many ways this has been portrayed none are exactly alike. the Characters and symbols used are sometimes different and sometimes similar, the same can be said for the terminology.

This particular parable perhaps uses the mention of pleading for the five brothers solely as an symbolic identifier of Judah...letting them know that exactly who he is pointing the finger at, and how there will come a time when their greed will cost them and their brothers salvation, all the while the Gentiles are sitting with Abraham in the kingdom of God. It's quite a slap in the face compared to what they had come to believe.

BTW...thank you for taking the time to read it and respond. I know it is quite lengthy so again thanks for taking the time. I spent quite a long time putting this together. Much of the imagery confused me but now it seems so obvious I don't know how I was missing it. Now I see the symbolism everywhere...but dare I make it longer.

 

[Palatka44]

While I still want to hold on to the literal interpertation, I have been enlightend by this. Thanks for your insights Adam.

 

[Uzziah]

I prefer the literal interpritation myself but you have given some food for thought.
If I were to interpret this passage in the way you do the Rich Man would also be the Pharisees and the Rulers of the Jews including the Priesthood. Lazarus would be the Publicans and sinners of Israel, the Dog would be the Gentiles. The Pharisees, Priesthood would not have anything to do with the Gentile dogs, but the Publicans and sinners had to deal with the Gentiles in their every day living.

The above interpetation can be backed up by the fact that the whole passage starts at ch 15 :1,2

Luk 15:1 Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.
Luk 15:2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.

Christ then goes on to the parable of the prodigal Son. It's obvious from the context that the eldest Son is the Pharisees and scribes and the Prodical Son is the Publicans and sinners of Israel when you have V's 1 and 2 in view.

Uz

 

[GodsWatchman]

I am brand new to this formum. Adam332's post was spectacular ("eyes to see") and was reason for me to join. Was in another forum - but their were too few people there.


Can you "paste HTML" in here?

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Adam

Very good I see you partially understand this prophecy. It goes even beyond what I have read here Adam. I do not know if you understand the rest and just did not put it in becasue for many it is too much to absorb. or if you have not yet seen the two fold nature of this prophecy. You are right this is a future fulfillment in many ways but the Jews are not the Stewardship of his word in the end times are they! If you undersstand what I am speaking of please continue.

hi everyone

You must take the very everyday context of this parable. here jesus is standing around teaching......... there are Pharasees in the crowd. As always the pharasies listen closley to jesus words looking to trap him and find reason to brand him a heretic well in those days it was a blasphemer but the end is the same they kill you.

Here Jesus says right to their faces that the kingdom of God is being taken from them and given to others.

The Five Brothers is reference to Judah's five true Brothers of the same mother it also has a second meaning which I believe Adam can explain as this is his very excellent thread.

the jews did not teach hell as we know it they taught and so does scripture I might add that the unsaved go to a pit of darkness not of fire.

All in the end are cast into a lake of fire but that is not the pit............. infact the pit or hell as we call it is also cast into the lake of Fire.

Rv:20:14: And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Now the jews had adopted many of the Customs of the Greeks. The concept of a pit of fire is a greek concept.

While many assume Jesus is confirming this Greek conceot of the pit the fact it is a parable shows this is not true.

Jesus is using one misconception of the Day (hell) to make a point about another misconception of the Day that is that only Hebrews could be saved.

It is clear in Revelation that those outside the city are

8: But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

No where does it say they will be tormented forever. It does say the Ac the False prophet and the Devil will be tormented

20:10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.

The literal Translation shows the Truth of this.

I believe for Humans it is what it says the second DEATH it is not seperation from God it is the destruction of your soul.

We must remember that Satan the Beast and the False prophet are not Humans they are all fallen Angels.

People to often see this world and Gods plan as finished we live in the interruption of Gods plan not the completion of it.

For this world is corrupted by the Prince of this world. When Jesus returns he will end that corruption.

We do not live in a world of light we live in a world of darkness we are to be the light to lead mankind to Christ.

We are failing in that mission and instead have turned his name into a thing of disgust among the unbelievers. So that Christians are seen as violent people of war and conquest of greed and deceit by those in countries and religions not of our Faith. Everything from the burning of heretics in 385 AD to the crusades, to the Taking of the Americas the Protestant Catholic wars in Europe that we spread around the world. The list really is endless.

And soon the piece de resistance Christianity will murder the Final great tribulation Saints. Satan will have made Christianity fulfil this prophecy full circle.

 

[GodsWatchman]

I'm inclined to be with you on this one - As DEATH is certainly eternal ..is it not? However - a *very strong* brother in the Lord has flat out told me I was wrong. What thinkest thou of such things?

Da*12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake , some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

And why three times?
Mr*9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mr*9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mr*9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

 

[Uzziah]

there are plenty of other verses as well....

Isa 33:12 And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire.
Isa 33:13 Hear, ye that are far off, what I have done; and, ye that are near, acknowledge my might.
Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi

I think the key to understanding this can be found here.

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

notice it is not prepared for man but for Satan and the Fallen Angels.

2Thes:1:[9] They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Punished with eternal Destruction not everlasting torment.

That is the light we must look at Matt 25:46

The everlasting punishment is eternal destruction.

Look those who don't get in are called dogs

Rv:22:15: For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

if you have a dog that is bad and has harmed people do you

a. Put it down....... that is have it destroyed so it hurts no one ever again

or

b. put the dog in a fire that never kills it but rather tortures it forever with the dog howling in pain and begging for water for all eternity.


I believe everyone would agree that the second option would be cruel and what most would consider evil

I have no doubt you would be charged with a criminal offence in almost every country on the planet.

I believe this is the kind of thing they have discovered mass murderers do to animals before they move on to humans.

Yet this is the position we assign to the all forgiving God who sacrificed his son on behalf of us all ?

 

[GodsWatchman]

I've been long holding the view from this web page:

I tried to put a link in here but it spanked me and wouldn't allow it.
But I have been *chastized* by a couple of brethren that I know to be prophets. I suppose they could be wrong by viewing things in "the Letter" and not "the Spirit" on this matter --- Still sitting on the fence now.... I know that the Word declares "Destruction" many times in conjunction with "Everlasting Torment" (Rev 20:10). .... I also know that Death (the opposite of Eternal Life) is Eternal. That is ..the effects of Death are Eternal are they not?

Eze*18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Second Death? The death of the flesh to be the first and the death of the soul to be the second? And if death of the soul - is that result not "Everlasting"? And if not the death of the soul - then that soul would have eternal life (not a pleasant life - but a life none the less).

And
Joh*3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Doesn't it show here that the two paths are either Eternal Life or ...Perishing?

Strongs Concordance reference for the word 'perish' is
622. apoollumi ap-ol'-loo-mee
from 575 and the base of 3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:--destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

575 - apo apo'
a primary particle; "off," i.e. away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literal or figurative):

3639- oleqroV olethros ol'-eth-ros
from a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. death, punishment:--destruction.​

 

[Uzziah]

We know what happens to those who take the mark of the beast......


Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Continual torment

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Then compare.......

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Isa 33:12 And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire.
Isa 33:13 Hear, ye that are far off, what I have done; and, ye that are near, acknowledge my might.
Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

 

[adam332]

Immortal worms in asbestos suits....hmmm???? Literal? I think not.

 

[adam332]

Just the facts,
thanks for the kind comments. This study used to be much looooonger. I had to bring it down to the basics for fear that I would reach less people by it being annoyingly long.

Some many facets that could be added or at least could be elaborated on, are.....

resurrection of Lazarus in connection with the crucificion
the lost tribes of Israel
the connection with the prophetic glimpse of the second coming
the irrelevance of bloodline
their poor stewardship

many others....

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Uzziah

You are taking Rev 14 out of context that is not about the lake of fire that is about the plagues that fall on mankind i.e. the Trumpets or the Bowls as they are the same.

[10] he also shall drink the wine of God's wrath, poured unmixed into the cup of his anger, and he shall be tormented with fire and sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

1: And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

[11] And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

See the Saints the 144,000 are still on Earth at this point they have not yet been Murdered

[12]Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

[13] And I heard a voice from heaven saying, "Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord henceforth." "Blessed indeed," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!"

Now they are killed.

You are using these verses out of context. Do you see?

As for mark 9:44 None of the pre Catholic vulgate texts have this verse.

Here is the proper reading of the earliest Greek texts

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=4697892

You will notice it does not say the worm once. just that the fire never goes out.

As for the Beast and false Prophet being in the lake alive they are not Humans they are Fallen Angels.

 

[Uzziah]

JTF

Not at all, your confounding the vials of wrath of ch 15:7 with the bowl of wrath of ch 14 which is speaking of the final end of the beast worshippers, regardless of the 144,000.

As for mark 9:44 None of the pre Catholic vulgate texts have this verse.

True, never the less Mark 9:48 is in the original.

Mar 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Uz

 

[Uzziah]

Immortal worms in asbestos suits....hmmm???? Literal? I think not.

Of course not, from the context of Mark 9 it's talking about those being warned of hell fire...

Mar 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Mar 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Uz

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi

I have not confounded anything.

Chapters 7 through 11 and 14 through 16 are the same events EVENT FOR EVENT.

The Trumpets and the Bowls are the same.

You are taking one line and making it your doctrine.

being killed in the second death is just that the second death the death of the soul.

It is destruction as Paul and Jesus said.

Not eternal punishment at the hands of a psychopath who is bent on tormenting people because they were foolish and did not understand.

Is that what you would do with a bad dog?