Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable

[Rubiks]

parable. I would find it strange that the rich man would want his tongue cooled, maybe his arms or legs, but his tongue???

 

[brinny]

sounds like he was parched to the nth degree, dehydrated, sorta likened to someone in a desert parched by the son...yup, they be awwwwful thirsty, mon

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

parable. I would find it strange that the rich man would want his tongue cooled, maybe his arms or legs, but his tongue???

sounds like he was parched to the nth degree, dehydrated, sorta likened to someone in a desert parched by the son...yup, they be awwwwful thirsty, mon

What about James 3:6

YoungLT) Jam 3:6
and the tongue [is] a fire, the world of the unrighteousness, so the tongue is set in our members, which is spotting our whole body,
and is setting on fire the course of nature, and is set on fire by the gehenna.

 

[brinny]

yes, the "suffering" would include a thirst that is left un-quenched, part of the never-ending suffering, and being fully conscious through it, with no one to ease it at all because there is no grace in that place.

kinda' reminds me of this:

Fiery Murmurings

Fiery murmurings, skulls and bones,
darkly moving shadowy groans
Pits of bondage
Howls of pain
haunting sorrows
Gnawing shame
Hope is gone
All is lost
What a pity
What a cost
To cast aside the grace
That would’ve saved you
From this place

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Boy, it's a sad day in GT when a post like mine doesn't generate any controversy. Must be time for a nap.

Sorry bro, I was too busy posting here and on other threads.
However, our bro RO responded to it

[I have to run some errands...bbl]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7306890/#post62214439




.

 

[Anna Scott]

LittleLambofJesus,

Thinking not only of my own eternal fate, but that of my son and other loved ones, as well as all mankind; it seems incomprehensible that a loving God would sentence one to an eternal fate so horrible.

Think about this. A person could die at age 10 or age 16, a "blink" in eternity; and yet be condemned to unimaginable and unending torment.

The idea that this could be true is so depressing. When you think of all the torture and atrocities committed by humans here on earth; none can possibly compare to burning in an eternal fire. Think about the worst conceivable pain---the worst atrocities ever committed multiplied by infinity. Who can bear such a thought?

How could the few elect be happy throughout eternity knowing the suffering going on in Hell? God would have to erase reality from the minds of the elect. Some Christians actually claim this will be the case; but what does that say about a God who would inflict such eternal atrocities that he would have to wipe out the knowledge of His actions from the elect few in order for them to be happy in Heaven. IOW, God would have to hide, from His own people, what He was really doing to the lost. He would have to hide His own atrocities throughout eternity.

If this eternal torment is true, then I truly wish I had never been born. Even if I am saved at the end of my journey on this earth, I could not bear the fate of others--incomprehensible eternal atrocities, worse than anything the most evil human has ever accomplished.

I do not believe the loving God I know in my heart would commit such atrocities for all eternity.

Anna

Anna Scott: Are you doing away with the concept of eternal separation from God for the unredeemed? What then did the "Saviour" come to do?
Consider again Romans 9 which shouts out that it is only by Sovereign mercy that any one of us has a chance. You have bought the very human line that things go better with Christ. In fact all is darkness without Him. Tough pill. Tough Boss God. Unless you trust in what He has said and demonstrated through the Cross. Then grace is free and glorious, and your family likeness grows.

This great intersection of justice and mercy is clearly illustrated in Psalm 85.

We needn't hear what You think God should do in order to be fair...Doug

Cover your ears.

That's what they did after they heard Stephen speak in Acts 7, before they stoned him.
That is also when we see the first appearance of Saul/Paul....
.

The "cover your ears" comment was simply to say that I have as much right to answer the OP's question as anyone else. If justhappeneduponthis or anyone else doesn't want to hear what I have to say, cover your ears or put me on ignore.

No one has actually answered or responded to the issues of my post in any serious way.

My post was not about what "I think" God should do in order to be fair.

My post is about the reality of eternal torment, and how that fits with the mercy of God. Is God's mercy greater than ours?

How could the few elect be happy throughout eternity knowing the suffering going on in Hell?

Why would a merciful God condemn the lost to eternal torture---an atrocity worse than anything committed by the most evil humans here on earth?

Also consider the following:

Was the consequence of the sin of Adam and Eve eternal torment? Of course, the answer is no. Death is the consequence.

The New Testament tells us the wages of sin is death and Christ conquered death.

The most famous passage of Scripture, John 3:16 says, "“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." Parish vs. eternal life.

If eternal torment is the price we pay for sin, then what did Jesus accomplish on the cross? Is he spending eternity in torment to take our place?

Acts 2 (ESV):
22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— 23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. 24 God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.

Romans 5:
14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

Romans 6:
4We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Also consider Psalms:

Psalms 49:
10 When we look at the wise, they die;
fool and dolt perish together
and leave their wealth to others.
11 Their graves are their homes forever,
their dwelling places to all generations,
though they named lands their own.
12 Mortals cannot abide in their pomp;
they are like the animals that perish.

13 Such is the fate of the foolhardy,
the end of those who are pleased with their lot.Selah
14Like sheep they are appointed for Sheol;
Death shall be their shepherd;
straight to the grave they descend,
and their form shall waste away;
Sheol shall be their home.
15 But God will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol,
for he will receive me.Selah

_________________________

So how did we go from "graves as eternal resting places" to eternal torment?

How did we go from parish vs. eternal life to eternal torment vs. eternal life in Heaven?

If you believe in eternal torment; does such unimaginable suffering stir even a small spark of compassion?

Anna

 

[Yahudim]

Is YHVH not a righteous Judge? Does He not provide a means of escape from His righteous judgment?

 

[Yahudim]

Back to the OP...

In my first post, I thought that some might find it interesting that the wealthy of ancient Judea were the corrupt priesthood (Sadducees) and that the 'Rich man' that had 5 'brothers' in the parable, might be in real life, one of the Sadducees. Further that one of the brothers might be the recipient of Luke's letter (most excellent Theophilus). Please see:Theophilus (biblical) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A growing belief[4] points to Theophilus ben Ananus, High Priest of the Temple in Jerusalem from 37-41 In this tradition Theophilus would have been both a kohen and a Sadducee. That would make him the son of Annas and brother-in-law of Caiaphas, raised in the Jewish Temple. Adherents claim that Luke's Gospel was targeted at Sadducee readers. This might explain a few features of Luke. He begins the story with an account of Zacharias the righteous priest who had a Temple vision of an angel (1:5-25). Luke quickly moves to account Mary's purification (niddah), Jesus' Temple redemption (pidyon ha-ben) rituals (2:21-39), and then to Jesus' pilgrimage to the Temple when he was twelve (2:46), possibly implying his bar mitzvah. He makes no mention of Caiaphas' role in Jesus' crucifixion and emphasizes Jesus' literal resurrection (24:39), including an ascension into heaven as a realm of spiritual existence (24:52; Acts 1:1). Luke also seems to stress Jesus' arguments with the Sadducees on points like legal grounds for divorce, the existence of angels, spirits, and an afterlife (Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection of the dead). If this was the case then Luke is trying to use Jesus' rebuttals and teachings to break down Theophilus' Sadducean philosophy, maybe with the hope that Theophilus would use his influence to get the Sadducees to cease their persecution of the Christians. One could also look at Luke's Gospel as an allegorical (רֶמֶז remez) reference to Jesus as "the man called the Branch" prophesied in Zechariah 3:8; 6:12-13, who is the ultimate high priest foreshadowed by the Levitical priesthood.
Most, if not all, of the commentaries on the Gospel of Luke say the “Question about the Resurrection” pericope presented in Lk. 20:27-40 is the only account in Luke of Jesus confronting the Sadducees. It is true that Luke only mentions the Sadducees by name once but it is not true that this pericope is the only one concerning the Sadducees. The Parables about the Good Samaritan, the Unjust Steward, the Rich Man and Lazarus and the Wicked Tenants are directed to the Sadducees who controlled the temple establishment. These parables are about unfaithful priests. They are the wicked sons of Eli.[5]

All of the New Testament passages concerning alms and almsgiving, except one in Matthew, are in Luke-Acts. Therefore, these parables may be about alms, almsgiving and the proper use of the wealth controlled by the temple authorities. Luke’s criticism focuses on the use of these temple resources by the religious aristocracy for their own selfish purposes. This means that the religious authorities controlled tremendous wealth that had been in times past properly distributed to the people as part of the institutional form of almsgiving. The priests in these parables are unfaithful, dishonest and disobedient because, inter alia, they have not invited the poor, the maimed, the lame and the blind to the banquet table. Once the office of the High Priest became non-hereditary, and available to the highest bidder, the institutional role of almsgiving was abandoned or reduced as the purchaser had to recoup his purchase price.[6]

A minority view[by whom?] identifies Theophilus as a later high priest: Mattathias ben Theophilus who served from 65-66. Note that Luke refers to high priest Joseph ben Caiaphas simply as "Caiaphas".[7] Thus, the reasoning goes, Luke used this pattern when addressing Theophilus.

 

[brinny]

Is YHVH not a righteous Judge? Does He not provide a means of escape from His righteous judgment?

He is indeed. And yes, He provided a MOST EXCELLENT means of escape from His righteous judgment.

 

[Frogster]

Boy, it's a sad day in GT when a post like mine doesn't generate any controversy. Must be time for a nap.

exactly, because controversy is relative to it's own importance.

besides, there is no jew or greek in the new man, and the jews are not children of God by flesh, rom 9;8, so the whole luke gentile or jew, doesnt really matter,, what does matter is that Luke supports the gospel of grace, as he supports paul.
alrighty now...

 

[Yahudim]

exactly, because controversy is relative to it's own importance.

besides, there is no jew or greek in the new man, and the jews are not children of God by flesh, rom 9;8, so the whole luke gentile or jew, doesnt really matter,, what does matter is that Luke supports the gospel of grace, as he supports paul.
alrighty now...

You don't get it my friend. I was examining the possibilities of his background and upbringing for the purpose of establishing a spectrum of context. Though incidental, it is not irrelevant.

Now let's get back to the OP.

 

[Frogster]

U would be suprised at what the frog knows, don't be fooled by my typos or a silly demeaner, and a jocular personality, I know the law grace/doctrine very well.

Again, with the utmost of respect and courtesy, and no offense, just sayinnn..

I do "get it".

 

[Anna Scott]

U would be suprised at what the frog knows, don't be fooled by my typos or a silly demeaner, and a jocular personality, I know the law grace/doctrine very well.

Again, with the utmost of respect and courtesy, and no offense, just sayinnn..

I do "get it".

Frogster,
I know this post was not directed at me; but just wanna say, I love the frogs.

Anna

 

[Frogster]

Frogster,
I know this post was not directed at me; but just wanna say, I love the frogs.

Anna

THANKS ANNA!

 

[Anna Scott]

What happened to the thread topic?

 

[Rick Otto]

What happened to the thread topic?

The strong, good looking people of above average intelligence have all agreed with me, it's a parable. Peripheral issues are being sorted thru.

 

[Yahudim]

Let me apologize. There is little profit in this type of conversation. Forget I said anything.

Concerning the Wikipedia article and some of the conclusions (suppositions?) that might be drawn; do any of you see the parable in a different light?

 

[Anna Scott]

The strong, good looking people of above average intelligence have all agreed with me, it's a parable.

Rick,

Your are too funny.

Peripheral issues are being sorted thru.

I agree that it is a parable. However, I was hoping for comments on my post #966 from those who believe it is literal. Where did they go?

Anna

 

[brinny]

The "cover your ears" comment was simply to say that I have as much right to answer the OP's question as anyone else. If justhappeneduponthis or anyone else doesn't want to hear what I have to say, cover your ears or put me on ignore.

No one has actually answered or responded to the issues of my post in any serious way.

My post was not about what "I think" God should do in order to be fair.

My post is about the reality of eternal torment, and how that fits with the mercy of God. Is God's mercy greater than ours?

How could the few elect be happy throughout eternity knowing the suffering going on in Hell?

Why would a merciful God condemn the lost to eternal torture---an atrocity worse than anything committed by the most evil humans here on earth?

Also consider the following:

Was the consequence of the sin of Adam and Eve eternal torment? Of course, the answer is no. Death is the consequence.

The New Testament tells us the wages of sin is death and Christ conquered death.

The most famous passage of Scripture, John 3:16 says, "“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." Parish vs. eternal life.

If eternal torment is the price we pay for sin, then what did Jesus accomplish on the cross? Is he spending eternity in torment to take our place?

Acts 2 (ESV):
22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— 23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. 24 God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.

Romans 5:
14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

Romans 6:
4We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Also consider Psalms:

Psalms 49:
10 When we look at the wise, they die;
fool and dolt perish together
and leave their wealth to others.
11 Their graves are their homes forever,
their dwelling places to all generations,
though they named lands their own.
12 Mortals cannot abide in their pomp;
they are like the animals that perish.

13 Such is the fate of the foolhardy,
the end of those who are pleased with their lot.Selah
14Like sheep they are appointed for Sheol;
Death shall be their shepherd;
straight to the grave they descend,
and their form shall waste away;
Sheol shall be their home.
15 But God will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol,
for he will receive me.Selah

_________________________

So how did we go from "graves as eternal resting places" to eternal torment?

How did we go from parish vs. eternal life to eternal torment vs. eternal life in Heaven?

If you believe in eternal torment; does such unimaginable suffering stir even a small spark of compassion?

Anna

There is death, and afterwards the judgment.

" And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" ~Hebrews 9:27

 

[Rick Otto]

There is death, and afterwards the judgment.

" And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" ~Hebrews 9:27

You always cheer me right up, brinn! (lol)