Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable

[visionary]

Pope cancels purgatory due to lack of interest....

 

[Duckybill]

Luke 16 is indeed a true account. It is consistent with other Bible accounts of eternal punishment and torment in everlasting fire!

 

[Zeena]

Here is the word you are misinterpreting.

G3666 ὁμοιόω homoioō

Thayer Definition:
1) to be made like
2) to liken, compare
2a) illustrate by comparisons
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G3664
Citing in TDNT: 5:188, 684
​

Just one, out of MANY!

Nice post Der Alter

 

[Zeena]

Luke 16 is indeed a true account. It is consistent with other Bible accounts of eternal punishment and torment in everlasting fire!

The parable in question speaks NOTHING of eternal punishment, nor everlasting fire.. In this you err.

 

[Duckybill]

The parable in question speaks NOTHING of eternal punishment, nor everlasting fire.. In this you err.

Luke 16:24 (NKJV)
24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'


Luke 16:26 (NKJV)
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'

 

[Zeena]

Luke 16:24 (NKJV)
24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'


Luke 16:26 (NKJV)
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'

So? where the word "eternal" like you supposedly referred to?

And what about the REST of it in the NKJV?

It doesn't say "hell" like YOU made it say, it says "hades"

Luke 16:23 NKJV
And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Revelation 20:11-15 NKJV
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[a] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[b] 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Duckybill]

So? where the word "eternal" like you supposedly 'quoted'?

What about the REST of it in the NKJV?

It doesn't say "hell" like YOU made it say, it says "hades"

Call it whatever makes you happy. The issue is eternal torment in the fire and/or darkness.

Matthew 5:22 (NKJV)
22 But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.

Luke 16:23 NKJV
And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Did you forget this?

Luke 16:24 (NKJV)
24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'

Revelation 20:11-15 NKJV
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[a] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[b] 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

This too: Revelation 14:11 (NKJV)
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

 

[Zeena]

Call it whatever makes you happy.

No thank you!

I'd much rather believe GOD.

The issue is eternal torment in the fire and/or darkness.

You are reading INTO the text hon, this is a no-no in proper exegesis..

So now, I ask AGAIN, where does the text (in question) say 'eternal', as you have, or does it? I tell you, it does not! And you are hereby adding to the Word of God!

Matthew 5:22 (NKJV)
22 But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.
Did you forget this?

This is a TOTALLY different text from the one we are SPECIFICALLY looking at!

Luke 16:24 (NKJV)
24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'

Luke 12:49
I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Just in case you didn't hear that right, here's the version you like to read from;

NKJV
“I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!

Here's some more;

NIV;
I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!

YLT
`Fire I came to cast to the earth, and what will I if already it was kindled?


Hell is not yet lit, and won't be 'lit' until the Lord Jesus comes again in Glory. Surely we can agree on this fact?
Therefore, the place (Hades) which you are reading about as having FLAME is not hell, which has ETERNAL HELL FIRE.

Since WHEN is a flame a fire?



2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

There is a Judgment of both the righteous and the wicked at the second advent (or 'coming') of Christ in which Hades will be cast into the lake of fire, as previously quoted from Revealtion 20:14, but it has not yet happened! But Jesus must come to Judge first.

1 Corinthians 15:25-26
For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

Revelation 20:14
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

This too: Revelation 14:11 (NKJV)
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Amen, hallelujah!

Isaiah 47:14 NKJV
Behold, they shall be as stubble,
The fire shall burn them;
They shall not deliver themselves
From the power of the flame;
It shall not be a coal to be warmed by,
Nor a fire to sit before!

2 Thessalonians 2

What, did you think Hades was some picnic park for the wicked dead? Did you honestly think I believed that the wicked are REWARDED rather than HELD for the Righteous Judgment of God? Again, as Scripture clearly indicates;

2 Peter 2:1-17
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell (Tartaroo-Kione Greek-the Abbys (separating Hades from Paradise, imo)) and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds; )
The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

I think this should suffice, IF you are being reasonable, WHICH I have yet to see from you..

But if not, here is some study material (from VARIOUS authors) on the matter;

HELL - Why was it made? - ChristianAnswers.Net

The Flame in Hades

The Bible Truth About Hades and Hell Fire

Did Jesus go to hell between His death and resurrection?

Not ONE of them are in agreement with your interpretation and addition to the Scriptures, hon. so may I at LEAST recommend a thorough study on the subject of your own volition?

Joel 2:1-3
Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.

 

[WarriorAngel]

This is where you get hung up. You totally ignored my post and just repeated your previous argument. The out-of-context proof text you are using does NOT say we are saved through fire. We are already saved, building on the foundation of Jesus Christ, and our works are burned. Read the entire passage in my post quoted above. If purging one's sins is salvation then there is NO, ZERO, NONE jail or purging after resurrection! You can't have it both ways.



Jesus did NOT say "the Kingdom of Heaven is this." The word translated "likened to" means "similar" NOT exactly the same!



Jesus paid the debt for sin, ALL sin, any debt that anyone has to pay is in this lifetime! There is NO purgatory or purging of sins after death.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:​

Note, there is no purgatory between "die" and "judgment!"



There is absolutely NO way we can be in paradise with Jesus with any malice in our hearts. If we have not forgiven in this lifetime we go to the opposite of heaven, whatever name you want to call it.



Here is the word you are misinterpreting.

G3666 ὁμοιόω homoioō

Thayer Definition:
1) to be made like
2) to liken, compare
2a) illustrate by comparisons
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G3664
Citing in TDNT: 5:188, 684
​

The concept of purgatory does NOT appear anywhere in scripture. There is no jail or purgatory in heaven.

Why would Jesus compare it if it has nothing to do with Heaven?
And further - why would He say as the master does this, so will the Father?

Thats a statement, not a comparison.

 

[Der Alte]

The parable in question speaks NOTHING of eternal punishment, nor everlasting fire.. In this you err.

Luke 16:24 (NKJV)
24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'

Luke 16:26 (NKJV)
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'

Something I usually point about about vs. 26. Vs. 26 silences both universalists, and annihilationists. Annihilationist, Abraham did NOT say "eventually you will be released from Hades and go to heaven.." And annihilationists. Abraham did NOT say "eventually you will be destroyed and cease to exist." Ten thousand years times ten thousand years from now God's unchanging word will still say, "nor can those [plural] from there [in Hades] pass to us."

 

[WarriorAngel]

Something I usually point about about vs. 26. Vs. 26 silences both universalists, and annihilationists. Annihilationist, Abraham did NOT say "eventually you will be released from Hades and go to heaven.." And annihilationists. Abraham did NOT say "eventually you will be destroyed and cease to exist." Ten thousand years times ten thousand years from now God's unchanging word will still say, "nor can those [plural] from there [in Hades] pass to us."

Abraham didnt have to.
It was understood.

Otherwise, you would think Abraham was in charge of souls in hell?
And for what did Abraham do to deserve that?
Why else would Lazarus even think to ask for help, if he knew his judgement was a permanent state?

Souls know - for one to enter hell or Heaven - they are already given their judgement.
They would not be asking Heaven to help for it would be not only futile, but impossible.
Yet Lazarus not only could see Heaven and those there - but he made a request of those in Heaven.
And as Jesus said - Heaven is likened to this - jail.
IE - Heaven is Heaven and if there is a jail - then they are released, it vastly differs from a state of permanence that hell holds.

Jesus didnt mince words by saying this is what Heaven is like.
That was what His statement meant, after all. THIS is what Heaven is like carries a strong understanding.

For He didnt say this is what hell is like...did He?
Why would He compare Heaven to hell in this case?

 

[Der Alte]

This is where you get hung up. You totally ignored my post and just repeated your previous argument. The out-of-context proof text you are using does NOT say we are saved through fire. We are already saved, building on the foundation of Jesus Christ, and our works are burned. Read the entire passage in my post quoted above. If purging one's sins is salvation then there is NO, ZERO, NONE jail or purging after resurrection! You can't have it both ways.

Jesus did NOT say "the Kingdom of Heaven is this." The word translated "likened to" means "similar" NOT exactly the same!

Jesus paid the debt for sin, ALL sin, any debt that anyone has to pay is in this lifetime! There is NO purgatory or purging of sins after death.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:​

Note, there is no purgatory between "die" and "judgment!"

There is absolutely NO way we can be in paradise with Jesus with any malice in our hearts. If we have not forgiven in this lifetime we go to the opposite of heaven, whatever name you want to call it.

Here is the word you are misinterpreting.

G3666 ὁμοιόω homoioō

Thayer Definition:
1) to be made like
2) to liken, compare
2a) illustrate by comparisons
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G3664
Citing in TDNT: 5:188, 684
​

The concept of purgatory does NOT appear anywhere in scripture. There is no jail or purgatory in heaven.

Why would Jesus compare it if it has nothing to do with Heaven?
And further - why would He say as the master does this, so will the Father?

It is called a parable, look up the meaning. It means to lay something beside. Jesus used known, familiar things and events to clarify unknown or not understood Biblical truths. There is NOTHING in the kingdom of heaven that is exactly like something on earth. That is why Jesus used the word ὁμοιόω to liken, compare, illustrate by comparisons. And trying to over emphasize this verse while ignoring the other 27 vss. where Jesus speaks about eternal punishment, leads to heresy not truth.

Thats a statement, not a comparison.

Matt 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened [ὁμοιόω to liken, compare, illustrate by comparisons] unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.​

 

[Der Alte]

Something I usually point about about vs. 26. Vs. 26 silences both universalists, and annihilationists. Annihilationist, Abraham did NOT say "eventually you will be released from Hades and go to heaven.." And annihilationists. Abraham did NOT say "eventually you will be destroyed and cease to exist." Ten thousand years times ten thousand years from now God's unchanging word will still say, "nor can those [plural] from there [in Hades] pass to us."

Abraham didnt have to.
It was understood.

Huge contradiction! If it was "understood" then why didn't the rich man understand it? And note Abraham does not say "once you have paid all the debt that you owe you will be allowed to join Lazarus." Ten thousand years times ten thousand years from now God's unchanging word will still say, "nor can those [plural] from there [in Hades] pass to us."

And something you are forgetting. Do criminals, in this life, who are sent to prison immediately, and always, acknowledge their crimes and become model citizens? Answer: No, they blame everybody but themselves and more than 65% return to prison. What will all the people you say will be sent to the jail in heaven and tortured in flames do, once they are released? Will they be filled with love and forgiveness or will they, like the great majority of people in this life, be filled with bitterness and anger and blame others including God for their plight?

Otherwise, you would think Abraham was in charge of souls in hell?
And for what did Abraham do to deserve that?
Why else would Lazarus even think to ask for help, if he knew his judgement was a permanent state?

Now you are contradicting your previous argument. First it was not Lazarus who asked for help. It was the rich man. Before you were arguing that the condition of punishment was temporary and then the person would be in heaven. Now you say it is permanent. Evidently the rich man did NOT know or understand that his condition was permanent. Abraham did not have to be in charge to tell the rich man the truth.

Souls know - for one to enter hell or Heaven - they are already given their judgement.
They would not be asking Heaven to help for it would be not only futile, but impossible.
Yet Lazarus not only could see Heaven and those there - but he made a request of those in Heaven.

How do souls know anything about heaven and hell? A great many people reject God, Jesus, heaven, and hell. And it was the rich man who begged for help NOT lazarus.

And as Jesus said - Heaven is likened to this - jail.
IE - Heaven is Heaven and if there is a jail - then they are released, it vastly differs from a state of permanence that hell holds.

Right, ὁμοιόω to liken, compare, illustrate by comparisons. NOT exactly the same.

Jesus didnt mince words by saying this is what Heaven is like.
That was what His statement meant, after all. THIS is what Heaven is like carries a strong understanding.

You are right Jesus did not mince words. ὁμοιόω to liken, compare, illustrate by comparisons. Elsewhere Jesus said the unrighteous would be cast into γέεννα/"gehenna" "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

For He didnt say this is what hell is like...did He?
Why would He compare Heaven to hell in this case?

A parable does not mean that one thing is exactly like another thing. You are the one who is trying to put the punishment of Hades in heaven not me. Here is the last verse in the chapter you are quoting from.

Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.​

Jesus did not say anything about getting a second chance to forgive. If a person is not forgiven they cannot see the kingdom of God. If a person, as you claim, is thrown into heaven's prison and punished until they forgive, will anything they say be from the heart or just to escape further punishment?

 

[RND]

Luke 16:18 - Christian Forums

Have you ever wondered why this verse is where it is and why Jesus uses this language just before He goes into the second half of the Parable of the Unjust Steward?

I have.

I mean, if we think about, it almost seems kinda outta place. Here Jesus is chiding the Pharisees right after concluding the first half of this parable.

First, the Pharisees begin to deride Jesus. v. 14.

Then Jesus, after they deride Him, takes His turn and begins dressing down the Pharisees. "You like to look good in public, but God knows your evil hearts. What this world honors is an abomination in the sight of God. Until John the Baptist began to preach, the laws of Moses and the messages of the prophets were your guides. But now the Good News of the Kingdom of God is preached, and eager multitudes are forcing their way in. But that doesn't mean that the law has lost its force in even the smallest point. It is stronger and more permanent than heaven and earth." - v. 15-17

Then the "coup de gras" if you will:

"Anyone who divorces his wife and marries someone else commits adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery."

I was always confused about this verse and why it was there in the first place, but especially right before the continuation of the parable with the tale of Lazarus and the rich man. That was the case until it suddenly dawned on me that God always likens going after spiritualism, false religion and false pagan worship as "adultery." I mean, God laid down some pretty solid rules as to why He didn't want the Children of Israel to go after "strange gods" - because it was for an obviously good reason, but coupled with the parable in Luke 16 and then the reasons became much clearer.

God, after all, had to grant a "bill of divorce" to Israel.

Deu 24:1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give [it] in her hand, and send her out of his house.

Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Isa 50:1 Thus saith the LORD, Where [is] the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors [is it] to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.

The books of Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Isaiah are filled to the brim of all the various forms and types of adultery that Israel and Judah committed against the Lord - the "adultery" and "harlotry" that both Israel and Judah committed against by accepting the false gods and false religion and the grotesque spiritualism of the pagan cultures around her.


Jer 3:6 The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen [that] which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.

Jer 5:19 And it shall come to pass, when ye shall say, Wherefore doeth the LORD our God all these [things] unto us? then shalt thou answer them, Like as ye have forsaken me, and served strange gods in your land, so shall ye serve strangers in a land [that is] not yours.

Eze 16:28 Thou hast played the harlot also with the Assyrians, because thou wast unsatiable; yea, thou hast played the harlot with them, and yet couldest not be satisfied.

Eze 16:31 In that thou buildest thine eminent place in the head of every way, and makest thine high place in every street; and hast not been as an harlot, in that thou scornest hire;


It is plain now that the reasons Jesus lays into the Pharisees, why Jesus considers them to be adulterers and Jesus explains what happens in the case of adultery in recounting Lazarus and the rich man is because they had accepted another teaching. As Jesus was recounting this story Lazarus and the rich man it is clear that it was based on the Pharisees own understanding of what happens in the afterlife and that understanding was derived from the neighboring pagan cultures - in this case, the Greeks.

It is the Greeks that taught that man had a "dual nature" and that man was a in possession of an immortal soul. Jesus is using the Pharisees own false belief system, borrowed from the pagans, against them and at the same time deriding them further in the process.

To me, verse 18 in Luke 16 will always and forever be to me one of the most fascinating single verses in all of scripture because it is so brilliant in it's application with regards who it was directed to and in relation to what it concludes.

"But Abraham said, `If they won't listen to Moses and the prophets, they won't listen even if someone rises from the dead.' "

The Pharisees had long before this time given up on seeking the higher meaning of God's character and instead were comfortable being their "own gods" if you will. Like many, if not most, Christian sects associated with the beliefs of pagan Rome, pagan protestantism has adopted so, so many of these false beliefs.


Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions. While the former lays the foundation of spiritualism, the latter creates a bond of sympathy with Rome. The Protestants of the United States will be foremost in stretching their hands across the gulf to grasp the hand of spiritualism; they will reach over the abyss to clasp hands with the Roman power; and under the influence of this threefold union, this country will follow in the steps of Rome in trampling on the rights of conscience.

As spiritualism more closely imitates the nominal Christianity of the day, it has greater power to deceive and ensnare. Satan himself is converted, after the modern order of things. He will appear in the character of an angel of light. Through the agency of spiritualism, miracles will be wrought,the sick will be healed, and many undeniable wonders will be performed. And as the spirits will profess faith in the Bible, and manifest respect for the institutions of the church, their work will be accepted as a manifestation of divine power.

The line of distinction between professed Christians and the ungodly is now hardly distinguishable. Church members love what the world loves and are ready to join with them, and Satan determines to unite them in one body and thus strengthen his cause by sweeping all into the ranks of spiritualism. Papists, who boast of miracles as a certain sign of the true church, will be readily deceived by this wonder-working power; and Protestants, having cast away the shield of truth, will also be deluded. Papists, Protestants, and worldlings will alike accept the form of godliness without the power, and they will see in this union a grand movement for the conversion of the world and the ushering in of the long-expected millennium. - Ellen White, The Great Controversy, page 588

 

[RND]

Lots of folks say that Luke 16:19-31 is not a parable. But I wonder if they have considered that the parable of the Unjust Steward starts the same way as the parable of Lazarus and the rich man?

Luk 16:1 ¶ And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.

Luk 16:19 ¶ There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

This seems to be evidence enough to consider that Luke 16:19-31 is a parable.

 

[RND]

...clothed in purple and fine linen...

Sign of the Jewish priesthood. Exodus 28

 

[RND]

...fared sumptuously every day...

...desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table...

Bread makes crumbs:

Jhn 6:48 I am that bread of life.
Jhn 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

Sign of having the Word of God available to read everyday. Meals were eaten at a table in Jewish culture.


Psa 23:5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

Eze 3:2 So I opened my mouth, and he caused me to eat that roll.
Eze 3:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, cause thy belly to eat, and fill thy bowels with this roll that I give thee. Then did I eat [it]; and it was in my mouth as honey for sweetness.

 

[Der Alte]

Lots of folks say that Luke 16:19-31 is not a parable. But I wonder if they have considered that the parable of the Unjust Steward starts the same way as the parable of Lazarus and the rich man?

Luk 16:1 ¶ And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.

Luk 16:19 ¶ There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

This seems to be evidence enough to consider that Luke 16:19-31 is a parable.

In some ways Luke 16:19-32 does appear to be a parable, but for many reasons, it can be shown that it is not a parable.

The definition of a parable: Greek: "παραβολή/parabole is based on the Greek word, παραβάλλω, paraballo, "to throw or lay beside, to compare. "παραβολή or parable means to place something beside something else for the purpose of comparison. A Biblical parable uses a story from ordinary, every day events and objects that the intended audience is familiar with, then Jesus, explains or clarifies an unknown or misunderstood spiritual or Biblical truth by comparing it to what is known. The question is then, what is the unknown or misunderstood spiritual or Biblical truth in the story of Lazarus and the rich man? The spiritual truth of Luke 16:19-32, has or needs nothing to be "thrown beside" or compared to. Unlike the parables of the sower, lost coins, lost sheep which Jesus had to explain to be understood.

All parables, are ordinary, every day, realistic events and objects that could be readily understood. The only every day, ordinary event in Luke 16:19-31, is Lazarus and the rich man living their respective lives then dying. After that Jesus describes events after death, which nobody in Jesus’ immediate audience, or anyone who has lived since, could possibly have any knowledge of.

Everyone understands from human experience the parables of the sower, a widow losing coins, a man planting a field, etc! The view, that Luke 16:19-31 is a parable, miserably fails. The entire scene in the "grave" is totally outside the realm of human experience. And if this is a parable, then it is the ONLY one in the Bible where Jesus based his teaching on something totally unknown to his audience.

The fact that Lazarus is actually named gives strong evidence this is a true story. In none of the legitimate parables did Jesus ever give specific names. Although the story begins with "there was a certain..." this phrase alone does not indicate that it was a parable.

Further very strong evidence that Luke 16 is not a parable, is that an actual historical person is named, Abraham. The rich man addresses him as, “father Abraham.” Jesus could legitimately use the ordinary, everyday actions of anonymous men, widows, shepherds, absent landowners, etc., to clarify or illustrate Biblical truths. Throughout history people have lost and found sheep and coins, farmers have sown seed, sons have squandered their father’s money and returned home in shame, etc. But, since Jesus did not identify the story as a parable, make any other disclaimer, or ever explain the story to his disciples, if Abraham was not in that specific place, and did not speak the specific words Jesus quotes, then Jesus was lying. Jesus is not a liar.

Even conceding arguendo Luke 16:19- 31, might be a parable, it really makes no difference. Those who assert that it is a parable are still wrong! Without exception, all legitimate parables are based upon REAL ordinary, every day events, which were familiar to and understood by his audience. NOT myths, legends, or the unknown. Some religious groups, JWs, etc. argue that the story of Lazarus and the rich man is an old Jewish myth or fable, or even a pagan Greek fable. Since Jesus condemned the extra-biblical teachings of the Pharisees, on many occasions, Matt 5:22, 28, 32, 34, 39, 44, 11:22,24; Luke 6:27, 10:12., etc., he certainly would not violate his own principles and scripture as expressed by the apostle Paul in Titus 1:14

Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.​

 

[RND]

I think it is fairly clear from verse 18 that Jesus was using the views of the afterlife of the Jews, adopted from the pagan Greeks that once occupied Israel and later adopted by the Romans, as His vehicle for the parable.

That's why Jesus in verse 18 called the Jewish leaders adulterers. They had the scriptures to tell them all about what happens at death, yet chose to believe and adopt pagan beliefs. This is illustrated in Jeremiah 3 when Israel and later Judah were overcome by their adultery from the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

There are so many symbolic meanings hidden in this parable that it cannot be considered an actual view of the afterlife.

 

[RND]

...And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores...

Gentiles were considered 'dogs' by the Jews.

This verse is reminiscent of when Jesus went to Tyre/Sidon to meet with the Canaanite woman who's daughter had fallen ill. Even Jesus called her a 'dog'!

Mat 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast [it] to dogs.

Yet she steadfastly proclaimed her faith that Jesus was the Messiah, the promised Son of David. At the same time she told Jesus exactly what the desire of the gentiles was:

Mat 15:27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

Because of her faith in the Messiah, not the blood coursing through her veins, Jesus healed her daughter.

Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great [is] thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

This coincides perfectly with what Jesus was telling the Pharisees' regarding what the 'dogs' had desired. More evidence that this is not an actual portrayal of the state of the dead.