Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable

[UnionJack]

I thought it was a true story....but everyone's saying parable, so i don't know anymore..

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I thought it was a true story....but everyone's saying parable, so i don't know anymore..

Honesty is always the best policy

 

[Der Alte]

To point out what seems obvious to me - basically stemming from Tradition...

Nothing about this [possible] parable - is about hell.

This is just your unsupported opinion.

The man is a believer to call Abraham his father.
People in Heaven cannot see ppl in hell. The great love would cause them pain to see it.
And ppl in hell are not so caring to wish to spare others of the misery.

If it is a parable both the rich man and Abraham represent something else. Where is your evidence that ppl. in heaven or hell cannot see the other? Where is your evidence what ppl. in hell do or do not do, or know?

In hell, they cannot see Heaven...it would be a comfort. They also want company - the more the merrier - hence the demons seek ruin of souls to have lots of company. Hence the term - Abyss.

Abyss is the bottomless gulf, pit, or chaos of the old cosmogonies, an immeasurably deep gulf or great space. Abyss may or may not be crowded or empty.

I say possibly a parable, because Jesus would never share someone's actual judgement and will spare others knowing.

When did Jesus give you these revelations what he would or would not do?

SO possibly He changed the name - but knew what the future would hold for those who are selfish within hearing of His parable.

More speculation about Jesus.

One last thought - how can Lazarus be sent - if ppl in Heaven cannot go to hell?

The rich man did not know what Lazarus could or could not do until Abraham told him.

Obviously this is the fire of purgation.

I can't find any reference to the "fires of purgation" in the Bible.

We know how it works in the after life when we are there. Jesus would not even mention the rich man asking for Lazarus to help him - if he were in hell.

Unless Jesus was talking about factual events we do not know "how it works in the after life when we are there." More speculation about what Jesus would or would not do which is not stated in scripture.

 

[visionary]

I thought it was a true story....but everyone's saying parable, so i don't know anymore..

It is one of those conviction things. Pray to God and ask Him. Trust Him in the witnesses He produces in His conviction to your heart on the subject. Be open to the fact that some times it takes Him a while to assemble the answer to your heart's contentment.

 

[zeke37]

I think it is a true story, because Lazarus actually did die..
and Christ is using a named Biblical figure, not a hypothetical character

the story has many levels, and more than one meaning...

one thing it shows is the state of being after flesh death

 

[heritage36]

There is a big difference between using a metaphor e.g. Herod/Fox, and a complete story 29 vss. long, every detail of which supposedly means something else, which OBTW, is never explained anywhere in scripture. Everybody and their pet cat has a theory what the story "really means." Nobody has ever explained how the early church, who spoke and read Greek, got is wrong but 2000 years later, they supposedly got it right although they don't read/understand Greek.

Does this mean you will value my opinion on this more now because I know Greek?

 

[Der Alte]

Does this mean you will value my opinion on this more now because I know Greek?

Depends! Even people who do know some Greek "interpret" things to agree with their assumptions/presuppositions. See e.g. this commentary on Thayer's Greek lexicon. Can You Trust Your Lexicon

 

[heritage36]

Very true! What I said about it was more of a joke anyways, though I do think knowing Greek is very helpful for a Bible student, even if you don't have a complete understanding of it, many words do not translate well to english and are better read in Greek it seems.

 

[WarriorAngel]

This is just your unsupported opinion.

I do believe i supported it after this sentence. to which you counter pointed - which i add - with your opinion.

If it is a parable both the rich man and Abraham represent something else. Where is your evidence that ppl. in heaven or hell cannot see the other? Where is your evidence what ppl. in hell do or do not do, or know?

Can someone in hell talk to those in Heaven?
And do they request help for others?

Ppl in hell - are in the abyss made for satan.

An abyss is what?
Abyss (from Greek ἄβυσσος = "bottomless", "the bottomless pit")

Abyss is the bottomless gulf, pit, or chaos of the old cosmogonies, an immeasurably deep gulf or great space. Abyss may or may not be crowded or empty.

Jesus also says it is where they will be gnashing and grinding their teeth and the worm never dies.
IE - extreme and utter pain.

Why would you suspect - if those in Heaven can neither see the book of life - nor will shed one tear - do you think they could see hell where their loved ones are tortured?
Why would God shield them the Book of Life if they can just see for themselves?

Do you really suspect God - who will shield anyone in Heaven with absolute peace - will say - o yeah, there is the door to hell where you can watch the torture and pain.

Would we be loving it? Or would it cause tears?

Paul mentioned different parts of Heaven.
Purgation is a journey towards Heaven.

See the Catacombs for the souls seeking prayers 'if' they were either or going to Heaven or hell immediately.

Also - why is God going to try all our works in fire - and the works of straw [useless] will be burned up but we shall be saved THROUGH the fire...?

When did Jesus give you these revelations what he would or would not do?

He left them with His Church.
He didn't hide His truths. He deposited them for all times in His Church for all times.

SO i guess you could say He revealed them to me 2000 years ago whence He laid down His doctrines in the Church for all times.

More speculation about Jesus.

The question was speculative. It's to be expected.

The rich man did not know what Lazarus could or could not do until Abraham told him.



I can't find any reference to the "fires of purgation" in the Bible.

Well explain to me why Jesus says the Kingdom of Heaven is likened to a jail--- that if we do not forgive a debt - we are with the torturers in jail until it is paid in full..?

Who can possibly pay their debt if being tortured in jail til it is paid?

Or do they depend on those who love them to help them pay off the debt 'from the outside of the jail'?? [ie - prayers and penances]

Please explain why Heaven is jail - if there will be no tears?

Unless Jesus was talking about factual events we do not know "how it works in the after life when we are there." More speculation about what Jesus would or would not do which is not stated in scripture.

It is in scriptures.
It all depends on if the modern interpretations can see it or not.

 

[Der Alte]

I do believe i supported it after this sentence. to which you counter pointed - which i add - with your opinion.

I don't believe you did and I usually don't give my opinion and I'm sure I didn't in this case.

Can someone in hell talk to those in Heaven?
And do they request help for others?

I believe what Jesus said. Your question without evidence is irrelevant.

Ppl in hell - are in the abyss made for satan.

An abyss is what?
Abyss[/I] (from Greek ἄβυσσος = "bottomless", "the bottomless pit")

Scripture which says this? NONE!

Jesus also says it is where they will be gnashing and grinding their teeth and the worm never dies.
IE - extreme and utter pain.

The fact that gnashing of teeth is not mentioned in Luke 16:19-48 is irrelevant.

Why would you suspect - if those in Heaven can neither see the book of life - nor will shed one tear - do you think they could see hell where their loved ones are tortured?
Why would God shield them the Book of Life if they can just see for themselves?

I believe Jesus. And none of these arguments address anything I said in my post.

Do you really suspect God - who will shield anyone in Heaven with absolute peace - will say - o yeah, there is the door to hell where you can watch the torture and pain.

Would we be loving it? Or would it cause tears?

I believe Jesus, evidently you do not.

Paul mentioned different parts of Heaven.
Purgation is a journey towards Heaven.

There is NO such word, or concept, as "purgation" in the entire Bible. Paul said nothing about different parts of heaven. He said "the third heaven." There are three heavens described in scripture, one, the heaven where the birds and clouds are, i.e. the immediate atmosphere. Two, the heavens where the planets, stars, sun and moon are, the cosmos. And third, heaven the abode of God.

Also - why is God going to try all our works in fire - and the works of straw [useless] will be burned up but we shall be saved THROUGH the fire...?

The verse you are alluding to refers to Christians only NOT all mankind.

1Co 3:11-17
(11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
(12) Now if any man build upon this foundation [Jesus Christ , vs. 11] gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
(13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
(14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
(15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
(16) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
(17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.​

He left them with His Church.
He didn't hide His truths. He deposited them for all times in His Church for all times.

SO i guess you could say He revealed them to me 2000 years ago whence He laid down His doctrines in the Church for all times.

The only doctrines God has laid down are contained in his Word. You were claiming special revelation not in the word of God.

Well explain to me why Jesus says the Kingdom of Heaven is likened to a jail--- that if we do not forgive a debt - we are with the torturers in jail until it is paid in full..?

Who can possibly pay their debt if being tortured in jail til it is paid?

Or do they depend on those who love them to help them pay off the debt 'from the outside of the jail'?? [ie - prayers and penances]

Please explain why Heaven is jail - if there will be no tears?

There is no passage where Jesus compares the kingdom of heaven to jail.

It is in scriptures.
It all depends on if the modern interpretations can see it or not.

I don't rely on modern interpretations. I read both Biblical languages and check anything questionable against the original language. You were claiming to know things not stated in scriptures.

 

[Zeena]

There is no passage where Jesus compares the kingdom of heaven to jail.

I think, correct me if I'm mistaken WarriorAngel, the allusion is to this passage of Scripture;

Matthew 5:21-26
Ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire.
If therefore thou art offering thy gift at the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath aught against thee, leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way, first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. Agree with thine adversary quickly, while thou art with him in the way; lest haply the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. Verily I say unto thee, thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou have paid the last farthing.

Which, in context, is clearly speaking of righting a wrong you have commited against your brother.

 

[Der Alte]

I think, correct me if I'm mistaken WarriorAngel, the allusion is to this passage of Scripture;

Matthew 5:21-26
Ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire.
If therefore thou art offering thy gift at the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath aught against thee, leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way, first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. Agree with thine adversary quickly, while thou art with him in the way; lest haply the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. Verily I say unto thee, thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou have paid the last farthing.

Which, in context, is clearly speaking of righting a wrong you have commited against your brother.

I agree righting a wrong in this lifetime. Nothing in this passage compares the kingdom of heaven to prison or jail.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Wrong passage...i believe

 

[Zeena]

Wrong passage...i believe

Well then, aren't you going to enlighten us?

 

[WarriorAngel]

Mathew 18

23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened to a king, who would take an account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to take the account, one was brought to him, that owed him ten thousand talents. 25 And as he had not wherewith to pay it, his lord commanded that he should be sold, and his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made.

26 But that servant falling down, besought him, saying: Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 27 And the lord of that servant being moved with pity, let him go and forgave him the debt. 28 But when that servant was gone out, he found one of his fellow servants that owed him an hundred pence: and laying hold of him, throttled him, saying: Pay what thou owest. 29 And his fellow servant falling down, besought him, saying: Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he paid the debt.




31 Now his fellow servants seeing what was done, were very much grieved, and they came and told their lord all that was done. 32 Then his lord called him; and said to him: Thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all the debt, because thou besoughtest me: 33 Shouldst not thou then have had compassion also on thy fellow servant, even as I had compassion on thee? 34 And his lord being angry, delivered him to the torturers until he paid all the debt. 35 So also shall my heavenly Father do to you, if you forgive not every one his brother from your hearts.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Does that help?

 

[Zeena]

Mathew 18
23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened to a king, who would take an account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to take the account, one was brought to him, that owed him ten thousand talents. 25 And as he had not wherewith to pay it, his lord commanded that he should be sold, and his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 But that servant falling down, besought him, saying: Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 27 And the lord of that servant being moved with pity, let him go and forgave him the debt. 28 But when that servant was gone out, he found one of his fellow servants that owed him an hundred pence: and laying hold of him, throttled him, saying: Pay what thou owest. 29 And his fellow servant falling down, besought him, saying: Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he paid the debt.
31 Now his fellow servants seeing what was done, were very much grieved, and they came and told their lord all that was done. 32 Then his lord called him; and said to him: Thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all the debt, because thou besoughtest me: 33 Shouldst not thou then have had compassion also on thy fellow servant, even as I had compassion on thee? 34 And his lord being angry, delivered him to the torturers until he paid all the debt. 35 So also shall my heavenly Father do to you, if you forgive not every one his brother from your hearts.

Okay, I see how your analogy could be misconstrued to include torture jail time in Heaven, except for a few basic facts;

There are no more works to do upon cessation of biological life (this includes repentance).
When we die, we rest from our labours;

Revelation 14:13
And I heard the voice from heaven saying, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from henceforth: yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; for their works follow with them.

Was it not Jesus who spoke thus?

Luke 17:20-21
And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Which I believe is fitting in this instance, seeing as He has been expounding on morality along the very same lines as those mentioned previously quoted, as well as this tell-tale fact;

Mathew 18:15-23
Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants....

As well as this simple ditty;

1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Okay, I see how your analogy could be misconstrued to include torture jail time in Heaven, except for a few basic facts;

It's Jesus' analogy, not mine.
And like the Father will do if we do not forgive.

But note please - they will get out of jail when the debt is repaid.
And hell is eternal fire as Jesus said.

So there lies the quandry.
If it is strictly Heaven, then we are tortured. If it is hell, then we will not get out.

SO where is it, one should ask.

It is the process one must go thru before entering Heaven - to be sinless. For many die with sin and the residual affects of our choices.
Such as not forgiving someone... and holding a grudge.
An all too common malady that so few are able to resist.

This is about the debt of forgiveness owed to someone who we are holding a grudge against.

I suggest if anyone says they never held or do not hold a grudge - need to look within to see if there is a person they are not speaking to. Even for something small or serious.
Now - if we pray the Our Father - we are asking He forgive us our debts - AS WE FORGIVE THOSE WHO TRESPASS AGAINST US.

But if we refuse to speak to someone, or we avoid being kind to someone - we are holding a grudge and feeling self righteous in that choice because they hurt us.
And Jesus says - forgive 70 x 7...

What if we die holding that grudge??
We take that anger with us... and therefore, if we cannot forgive, and we make someone suffer who will also be purged for the debt of pain they gave to us - then two ppl must be purified.

This has always been doctrine of the Church.
Even the first Christians tombs seek prayer in their death.

You can check that out if you like.

There are no more works to do upon cessation of biological life (this includes repentance).
When we die, we rest from our labours;

True, we can no longer repent.

But what did Jesus say....?

Neither in this life, nor the one to come can we be forgiven for blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

So - what does this tell us?
That in the next life too, we can be forgiven of our debts... but not that one.
Obviously, to be forgiven one must pay the debt owed, and if He makes a distinction of being forgiven in either life, then we must atone for sin in either or.

So in the next life we will find we need forgiveness too. BUT once our mortal death - and we are given knowledge - we cannot repent of it in this life, but must make atonement for it in the next.

Revelation 14:13
And I heard the voice from heaven saying, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from henceforth: yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; for their works follow with them.

Some go straight to Heaven.
Again, we see a distinction...
...die in the Lord.
Die without sin, and in the Lord.

Was it not Jesus who spoke thus?

Luke 17:20-21
And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

The Kingdom of God is within our soul. Our thoughts words and actions, if they miss the mark, will need to be atoned for.
This does not make purging remiss, but only that purging is a process of forgiveness in the next life to come.

The Pharisees considered the Kingdom to be on earth. The soul is carried with us. We will pay retribution for all our sins one way or another rather than be completely thrown away for our choices.
And lo, Jesus says they will say to Him 'Lord, Lord...when did I see You hungry..?'
Obviously they did believe to call Him Lord. They just didnt see that even in the least of us He is in us.

Which I believe is fitting in this instance, seeing as He has been expounding on morality along the very same lines as those mentioned previously quoted, as well as this tell-tale fact;

Mathew 18:15-23
if he Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: i shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Good quote about the Authority of His Church.
And if he does not abide by the Church - after everything else was tried, then treat him as a heathen because he is insolent of what the Church has decided.

BUT that is not to say to mistreat or hate them or hold a grudge, but rather until he returns to the Church and obeys he should not be treated as part of the Church.

[No Communion ...etc]

Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants....

I already mentioned that we must forgive - in order for ourselves to be forgiven.

.

As well as this simple ditty;

1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

No clue what this is about in context.

When we love others, we will not hurt them.

Isn't a grudge being self righteous and hurting someone? How can we say we love if we refuse to forgive?

Which is why Jesus clearly said to Peter - look this is what it is - the Kingdom of Heaven will hold debtors who do not forgive. If the person indebted to them is not forgiven, neither shall the one owed the debt until the payment is made.
Prayer and penances for those departed.

Is jail permanent in this ? No.
Hell is permanent, Heaven is not pain.
Purging to enter Heaven is the fire that shall burn the works [useless works] but by it we shall be saved.
Thats in scriptures.

 

[RND]

But note please - they will get out of jail when the debt is repaid.

You mean Jesus' sacrifice wasn't enough? How unbiblical.

 

[WarriorAngel]

You mean Jesus' sacrifice wasn't enough? How unbiblical.

Show me where Jesus said we have nothing more to do.

Show me where He said all are now sinless and now earth is unnecessary because we are going to Heaven at His death without worrying about living a righteous life in Him.

Show me where we are not going to pay for our sins.

HIS death was sufficient for us to 'have' salvation and hope - a commonly used word in scriptures is HOPE.

No one, not one Apostle said our labor was over, and neither did Jesus.