It's Jesus' analogy, not mine.
And like the Father will do if we do not forgive.
Hon, I called it 'your' analogy because you attached the connotation of the afterlife to that which is in no way indicative of such. Reason being; Jesus was specifically speaking of forgiveness between brothers ON EARTH, even as He said;
Mathew 18:19
Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree
on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
But note please - they will get out of jail when the debt is repaid.
There is no
repentance in the grave WarriorAngel;
Ecclesiastes 9:4-6;Revelation 14:13 (for starters)
Therefore if God is to "purge of us our sins", He would have to kill us ALL OVER AGAIN;
Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the
second death.
Revelation 21:7-8
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in
the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Ergo, there IS
no purging process after biological cessation of life.
You're either in, or your out, no do-overs!
And hell is eternal fire as Jesus said.
So there lies the quandry.
If it is strictly Heaven, then we are tortured. If it is hell, then we will not get out.
SO where is it, one should ask.
It is the process one must go thru before entering Heaven - to be sinless. For many die with sin and the residual affects of our choices.
Such as not forgiving someone... and holding a grudge.
An all too common malady that so few are able to resist.
This is about the debt of forgiveness owed to someone who we are holding a grudge against.
I suggest if anyone says they never held or do not hold a grudge - need to look within to see if there is a person they are not speaking to. Even for something small or serious.
Now - if we pray the Our Father - we are asking He forgive us our debts - AS WE FORGIVE THOSE WHO TRESPASS AGAINST US.
But if we refuse to speak to someone, or we avoid being kind to someone - we are holding a grudge and feeling self righteous in that choice because they hurt us.
Do trolls count?
Must I speak and answer every bait they give me?
And Jesus says - forgive 70 x 7...
John 7:24
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
God alone see's the intent and purpose of your heart! If your heart is set to forgive your brother, He knows before you do
And your heart IS set to fogive your brother if you have been born again, for you have cast away from you your heart of stone and recieved a new heart of flesh in the Person of Christ.
Sometimes it's just not possible to go to someone we have offended and appologise, sometimes, even if we can, they recieve not our appology.. But God see's our heart!
The 'process' we go through is sanctification IN THIS LIFE, not in the afterlife;
Hebrews 6:1-3
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ,
let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit.
When Saint Paul emphatically proclaimed "let us go on to perfection" he wasn't talking about AFTER death, but before it! He even goes on to TESTIFY to this effect;
2 Timothy 4:7-8
I have fought a good fight,
I have finished my course,
I have kept the faith:
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
What he did, he did by the Grace of God by faith in Jesus Christ, through the FREEDOM offered by Jesus to one and all. Just as every man woman and child is called.. To
run the race, to
finish our course, not leaving a bunch of baggage that needs to burned off by the fire of God!
Romans 6:18
But
now being made free from sin, and become servants to God,
ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
What if we die holding that grudge??
Hebrews 6:9-20
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full
assurance of hope unto the end: That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. And so, after he had patiently endured, he
obtained the promise. For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to
lay hold upon the hope set before us:
Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Acts 13:37-39
But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption. Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
We take that anger with us...
Revelation 6:10
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
These are with Jesus, under the Throne
in Heaven, and white robes are given them. Yet, they are obviously angry, for they desire Justice of God.. Do you still believe the
Martyrs of the Lord must be 'purged' before entering Heaven?
Is it now
unjust to be angry and "hold a grudge"?
True, we can no longer repent.
Then how can you say we shall suffer torment!?!
If we cannot repent then God, our Merciful, Loving Father, would be beating us just to release His own anger, and not for any benefit to us!
This makes absolutely NO sense in light of further revealtion;
Hebrews 12:10
For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
And there is NO PROFIT
unless we
can repent!
Hebrews 12:9
Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
This Living, this LIFE, it's Jesus in the here and
now!
But what did Jesus say....?
Neither in this life, nor the one to come can we be forgiven for blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
I do not believe it is possible for a born again Christian to blaspheme the Holy Spirit;
John 17:20-26
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and
these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and
will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
So - what does this tell us?
That in the next life too, we can be forgiven of our debts... but not that one.
Obviously, to be forgiven one must pay the debt owed, and if He makes a distinction of being forgiven in either life, then we must atone for sin in either or.
So in the next life we will find we need forgiveness too. BUT once our mortal death - and we are given knowledge - we cannot repent of it in this life, but must make atonement for it in the next.
Some go straight to Heaven.
Again, we see a distinction...
...die in the Lord.
Die without sin, and in the Lord.
The Kingdom of God is within our soul. Our thoughts words and actions, if they miss the mark, will need to be atoned for.
Hebrews 7:22-27
By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
This does not make purging remiss, but only that purging is a process of forgiveness in the next life to come.
There is
NO FORGIVENESS offered by God in the 'next' life to come. For the 'next' "life to come" is but a (Glorified/risen) extension of this one.
We either accept Jesus here, on earth, or we NEVER accept Him, PERIOD.
We either love to God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength, or we DON'T love Him AT ALL! We either do good to Christ or NOT..
The Pharisees considered the Kingdom to be on earth. The soul is carried with us. We will pay retribution for all our sins one way or another rather than be completely thrown away for our choices.
And lo, Jesus says they will say to Him 'Lord, Lord...when did I see You hungry..?'
Obviously they did believe to call Him Lord. They just didnt see that even in the least of us He is in us.
Good quote about the Authority of His Church.
And if he does not abide by the Church - after everything else was tried, then treat him as a heathen because he is insolent of what the Church has decided.
BUT that is not to say to mistreat or hate them or hold a grudge, but rather until he returns to the Church and obeys he should not be treated as part of the Church.
[No Communion ...etc]
I already mentioned that we must forgive - in order for ourselves to be forgiven.
I believe that we must REPENT in order to be forgiven.
Acts 2:38, 3:19 (more, if you insist)
And I don't believe the dogma of falling down before a pope, rather than God. Or is the pope now God?
No clue what this is about in context.
When we love others, we will not hurt them.
Isn't a grudge being self righteous and hurting someone? How can we say we love if we refuse to forgive?
How can you say and uphold that God IS Love when you perceive Him as a vindictive God that punishes
only for His angers sake, and not for our GOOD?
If there was room for repentance than God would be just in punishing evil doers THAT side of Heaven, where there
is no room for repentance!
Jeremiah 10:24
O LORD, correct me, but with judgment; not in thine anger, lest thou bring me to nothing.
Will forty lashes minus one make Him happy as it did the centurians?
Which is why Jesus clearly said to Peter - look this is what it is - the Kingdom of Heaven will hold debtors who do not forgive. If the person indebted to them is not forgiven, neither shall the one owed the debt until the payment is made.
Prayer and penances for those departed.
I've already shown that Jesus used the words ON EARTH in the discourse He had with Peter and that I believe that's what He meant.
Prayer for the dearly departed? How's about praying for the quick and alive? Also, seeing as it's not possible for us to atone for one anothers sins, pennace is out of the question, as well.
Is jail permanent in this ? No.
Hell is permanent, Heaven is not pain.
Purging to enter Heaven is the fire that shall burn the works [useless works] but by it we shall be saved.
Thats in scriptures.
You said above, to which I concurr, that hell is permanent, and Heaven is NOT pain;
Just where do you suppose God to be doing this dirty business of torture, if not in Heaven or hell?
ON EARTH MAYHAPS?!?!
