Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable

[Der Alte]

All these things Jesus speaks in parables to the throngs, and apart from a parable He spoke nothing to them... Mat. 13:34.

In Luke 16 Jesus was NOT speaking to the throngs but his disciples see 16:1 and 17:1. I would suggest you more carefully consider your arguments.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

nm.....np

 

[Der Alte]

Luke 15:1 Now the tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to hear him. 2 And the Pharisees and the scribes grumbled, saying, "This man receives sinners and eats with them." 3 So he told them this parable ... 8 "Or ... 11 And he said A CERTAIN MAN ... 16:1 There was A CERTAIN RICH MAN ... 19 There was A CERTAIN RICH MAN ...

And your point is? In some ways Luke 16:19-32 does appear to be a parable, but for many reasons, it can be shown that it is not a parable.

The definition of a parable: Greek: "παραβολή/parabole is based on the Greek word, παραβάλλω, paraballo, "to throw or lay beside, to compare. "παραβολή or parable means to place something beside something else for the purpose of comparison. A Biblical parable uses a story from ordinary, every day events and objects that the intended audience is familiar with, then Jesus, explains or clarifies an unknown or misunderstood spiritual or Biblical truth by comparing it to what is known. The question is then, what is the unknown or misunderstood spiritual or Biblical truth in the story of Lazarus and the rich man? The spiritual truth of Luke 16:19-32, has or needs nothing to be "thrown beside" or compared to. Unlike the parables of the sower, lost coins, lost sheep which Jesus had to explain to be understood.

All parables, are ordinary, every day, realistic events and objects that could be readily understood. The only every day, ordinary event in Luke 16:19-31, is Lazarus and the rich man living their respective lives then dying. After that Jesus describes events after death, which nobody in Jesus’ immediate audience, or anyone who has lived since, could possibly have any knowledge of.

Everyone understands from human experience the parables of the sower, a widow losing coins, a man planting a field, etc! The view, that Luke 16:19-31 is a parable, miserably fails. The entire scene in the "grave" is totally outside the realm of human experience. And if this is a parable, then it is the ONLY one in the Bible where Jesus based his teaching on something totally unknown to his audience.

The fact that Lazarus is actually named gives strong evidence this is a true story. In none of the legitimate parables did Jesus ever give specific names. Although the story begins with "there was a certain..." this phrase alone does not indicate that it was a parable.

Further very strong evidence that Luke 16 is not a parable, is that an actual historical person is named, Abraham. The rich man addresses him as, “father Abraham.” Jesus could legitimately use the ordinary, everyday actions of anonymous men, widows, shepherds, absent landowners, etc., to clarify or illustrate Biblical truths. Throughout history people have lost and found sheep and coins, farmers have sown seed, sons have squandered their father’s money and returned home in shame, etc. But, since Jesus did not identify the story as a parable, make any other disclaimer, or ever explain the story to his disciples, if Abraham was not in that specific place, and did not speak the specific words Jesus quotes, then Jesus was lying. Jesus is not a liar.

Even conceding arguendo Luke 16:19- 31, might be a parable, it really makes no difference. Those who assert that it is a parable are still wrong! Without exception all legitimate parables are based upon REAL ordinary, every day events, NOT myths, legends, or the unknown. Some religious groups, JWs, etc. argue that the story of Lazarus and the rich man is an old Jewish myth or fable, or even a pagan Greek fable. Since Jesus condemned the extra-biblical teachings of the Pharisees, on many occasions, Matt 5:22, 28, 32, 34, 39, 44, 11:22,24; Luke 6:27, 10:12., etc., he certainly would not violate his own principles and scripture as expressed by the apostle Paul in Titus 1:14

Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.​

Some of this is from Bible.ca and other online sources.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

In Luke 16 Jesus was NOT speaking to the throngs but his disciples see 16:1 and 17:1. I would suggest you more carefully consider your arguments.

well, evidentally these characters must have been within earshot of Jesus


Luke 16:14 And also the Pharisees, being lovers of money, were hearing all these things, and were deriding Him,
15 and He said to them, "Ye are those declaring yourselves righteous before men, but God doth know your hearts; because that which among men is high, [is] abomination before God

 

[Der Alte]

In Luke 16 Jesus was NOT speaking to the throngs but his disciples see 16:1 and 17:1. I would suggest you more carefully consider your arguments.

well, evidentally these characters must have been within earshot of Jesus

Luke 16:14 And also the Pharisees, being lovers of money, were hearing all these things, and were deriding him,
15 and he said to them, `Ye are those declaring yourselves righteous before men, but God doth know your hearts; because that which among men is high, [is] abomination before God;

And your point is? Jesus' intended audience was his disciples, not the Pharisees or the throngs as YY said.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

And your point is? Jesus' intended audience was his disciples, not the Pharisees or the throngs as YY said.

Then they shouldn't have butted in

Matthew 23:15 Woe to ye Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
That ye are going about the sea and the dry/xhran <3584> to make one proselyte, and whenever he may be becoming, ye are making him a son of geennhV<1067> twofold-more of ye-selves

Matt 23:33 "Serpents! produce of vipers! how? ye may be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV <1067>

Ezekiel 39:12 And house of Israel bury them so that to purify/cleanse the Land seven months. And all of people of the Land bury them.

 

[Der Alte]

Are the interpretations of the ECFs you set forth absolutely the one and only official dogma of the church with respect to the interpretation of this passage?

Don't know, don't care! I don't recognize the two CCC sources you quoted. Whatever they are they are NOT any part of my church.

Indeed it would seem that some people have different designs on this particular passage

Irrelevant! There are a bunch of false religious groups which came into existence in, or after, the late 19th century; JW, LDS, OP, UU, WWCG, anti-trin MJ, kristadelfian, etc.

The mere fact that all the ECFs you cite understand the passage to signify different things tells us something. Ireneaeus says continued existence. Tertullian says corporeality. Cyprian says punishments in mouth and tongue. Methodius says bodily form arises before resurrection.

Logical fallacy, argument from silence. Did any of them specifically deny what any other said?

 

[Der Alte]

Then they shouldn't have butted in

Matthew 23:15 Woe to ye Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
That ye are going about the sea and the dry/xhran <3584> to make one proselyte, and whenever he may be becoming, ye are making him a son of geennhV<1067> twofold-more of ye-selves

Matt 23:33 "Serpents! produce of vipers! how? ye may be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV <1067>

Ezekiel 39:12 And house of Israel bury them so that to purify/cleanse the Land seven months. And all of people of the Land bury them.

I have to agree with that. They would have been better off minding their own business.

 

[Jig]

OK. But John the Baptist also said Jesus was the lamb of God but not that Jesus was "like" the lamb of God. Does that mean Jesus is going to grow wool and sprout horns? Yes I'm being facetious. Point is though when do we know something is a metaphor and when do we know it isn't? How do we know for sure the parable isn't about the Pharisees?

The issue is not whether or not we can identify metaphors. The issue is whether or not Jesus' parables contain real and/or possible locations/things/events/etc.

Let's say Jesus told a parable about a woman singing by a lake and a hill with flowers. Sure, that person may be fictional and what she was doing may have never happened BUT is there such things as lakes, hills, flowers, people, singing?

Yes. This is my point. Jesus never seemed to tell a parable that included fake and/or impossible locations/things/events/etc.

Could the parable of the Prodigal Son have happened in real life? Yes. Though it probably didn't.
Could the parable of the hidden treasure have happened in real life? Yes. Though it probably didn't.
The ten virgins? Yes.
Etc.

 

[Jig]

You will observe that I said "specific location or geography."

Did you catch one of my earlier posts where I mentioned parables that included geography and locations such as mountains, vineyards, distant countries, fields, lakes...?

 

[Der Alte]

Did you catch one of my earlier posts where I mentioned parables that included geography and locations such as mountains, vineyards, distant countries, fields, lakes...?

Yes I did. I misunderstood your reference before.

 

[Yab Yum]

Yes. This is my point. Jesus never seemed to tell a parable that included fake and/or impossible locations/things/events/etc.

Am I just tired or is what you and Der Alter are saying is that this passage must signify real things because it includes "fake and/or impossible" things?

Makes sense to me - then again I have multiple personality disorder. Or maybe not.

 

[Yab Yum]

Could the parable of the Prodigal Son have happened in real life? Yes. Though it probably didn't.
Could the parable of the hidden treasure have happened in real life? Yes. Though it probably didn't.
The ten virgins? Yes.
Etc.
[/B]

"Can the passage about Lazarus have happened in real life? No. Therefore it must not be a parable, it must refer to real, yes real things".

Ahem.

Dudes, sometimes you just have to cut the Gordian knot ya know?

 

[Yab Yum]

All parables, are ordinary, every day, realistic events and objects that could be readily understood.

I've never seen Satan going around picking up seeds from the ground.

The entire scene in the "grave" is totally outside the realm of human experience. And if this is a parable, then it is the ONLY one in the Bible where Jesus based his teaching on something totally unknown to his audience.

"It's completely unknown therefore it must be real" doesn't follow.

The fact that Lazarus is actually named gives strong evidence this is a true story.

Mark 4:15 (New International Version)

15Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them.

Further very strong evidence that Luke 16 is not a parable, is that an actual historical person is named, Abraham. The rich man addresses him as, “father Abraham.” Jesus could legitimately use the ordinary, everyday actions of anonymous men, widows, shepherds, absent landowners, etc., to clarify or illustrate Biblical truths. Throughout history people have lost and found sheep and coins, farmers have sown seed, sons have squandered their father’s money and returned home in shame, etc. But, since Jesus did not identify the story as a parable, make any other disclaimer, or ever explain the story to his disciples, if Abraham was not in that specific place, and did not speak the specific words Jesus quotes, then Jesus was lying. Jesus is not a liar.

Unless it's a parable. Again, I've never seen Satan picking up seeds.

Even conceding arguendo Luke 16:19- 31, might be a parable, it really makes no difference. Those who assert that it is a parable are still wrong! Without exception all legitimate parables are based upon REAL ordinary, every day events, NOT myths, legends, or the unknown.

Like Satan picking up seeds.

 

[Jig]

"Can the passage about Lazarus have happened in real life? No. Therefore it must not be a parable, it must refer to real, yes real things".

There is no way to prove what happened to Lazarus and the Rich Man could not happen.

I'm not sure if you understand my position.

I believe the parable about the Rich Man and Lazarus is most likely fictional. I do not think it needs to be a true story. I'm okay with your conclusion.

However, I believe that the description of Hades is real. This is what I've been arguing for in my last few posts.

 

[Yab Yum]

Oh, ok. Apologies for not understanding. I kind of jumped in to this thread after the train had left the station ...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Der Alter The fact that Lazarus is actually named gives strong evidence this is a true story.

Are Armegeddon and Gog-Magog literally places/entities?

Reve 16:16 And he together-assembled/sun-agagein <4863> (5629) them into the Place, the being called to Hebrew Armageddwn
[Reve 20:8]

Reve 20:8 And he shall be coming out to deceive the Nations, the in the four corners of the land, the Gog and the Magog, together-assembling/sun-agagein <4863> (5629) them into the Battle of which the Number as the Sand of the Sea.
[Reve 16:14]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7413416/
Armegeddon and Gog-Magog same event?

 

[Der Alte]

I've never seen Satan going around picking up seeds from the ground.

The real life event was the sower and the seed which was compared to Satan taking away the gospel from those who hear it. The parables always start with well known everyday things and events, which are used to clarify Bible truths.

"It's completely unknown therefore it must be real" doesn't follow.

That is NOT what I said is it? Perhaps you should reread my post and respond to what I did say.

Mark 4:15 (New International Version)

15Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them.

Unless it's a parable. Again, I've never seen Satan picking up seeds.

Still misrepresenting what is written. The real life events is the sower sowing seed, which is compared to Satan taking away the words that were sown/given to the people.

Like Satan picking up seeds.

See replies above. Let me know if you plan to read what I posted and reply to it, rather than your straw man.

 

[Der Alte]

Are Armegeddon and Gog-Magog literally places/entities?

Reve 16:16 And he together-assembled/sun-agagein <4863> (5629) them into the Place, the being called to Hebrew Armageddwn
[Reve 20:8]

Reve 20:8 And he shall be coming out to deceive the Nations, the in the four corners of the land, the Gog and the Magog, together-assembling/sun-agagein <4863> (5629) them into the Battle of which the Number as the Sand of the Sea.
[Reve 16:14]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7413416/
Armegeddon and Gog-Magog same event?

They were at the time the Bible was written. &#1492;&#1512; &#1502;&#1490;&#1497;&#1491;&#1493; Harmegiddo, i.e. the mountain of Megiddo is approximately 25 miles (40 km) west of the southern tip of the Sea of Galilee. Gog and Magog &#1490;&#1468;&#1493;&#1465;&#1490; &#1493;&#1468;&#1502;&#1464;&#1490;&#1493;&#1465;&#1490; are identified by Josephus as the Scythians.

This search took 0.32 seconds.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

They were at the time the Bible was written. &#1492;&#1512; &#1502;&#1490;&#1497;&#1491;&#1493; Harmegiddo, i.e. the mountain of Megiddo is approximately 25 miles (40 km) west of the southern tip of the Sea of Galilee. Gog and Magog &#1490;&#1468;&#1493;&#1465;&#1490; &#1493;&#1468;&#1502;&#1464;&#1490;&#1493;&#1465;&#1490; are identified by Josephus as the Scythians.

This search took 0.32 seconds.

Thks.
Did you know "gog" is also used in the transliterated greek word for "synagogue"

Reve 3:9 Behold! I am giving out of the synagogue/sun-agwghV <4864> of the Satan, to-the ones saying themselves Judeans to-be and not they are, but are false.
Behold! I shall be making them that they shall be arriving, and they shall be worshipping before the feet of thee, and they may be knowing that I love/hgaphsa <25> (5656) thee.