Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable

[LittleLambofJesus]

well, if you must, you must.

Here are the facts.
1. The definition of Parable doesn't include a name restriction.
2. Jesus Christ often spoke in Parables.
3. Parables from extra-biblical sources often include proper names.
4. This story is usually included in lists of the parables of Jesus Christ.

My conclusion: There is no reason to believe that the story of Lazarus and Dives is not a parable.

1. According to who and in what scope?
2. True
3. While true, completely irrelevant
4. based on someone else's opinion, unless Jesus or a disciple comprised the list

My conclusion: There is no reason to believe that the story of Lazarus and Dives is not a parable based on your opinion and personal theological beliefs, as they do not correlate.

The same can also be said about your opinion and personal theological beliefs

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[x141]

The same can also be said about your opinion and personal theological beliefs

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a manna left over a day, becomes filled with worms ... not unlike the city of Cain, ... an observation I live by ... by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

 

[x141]

Flesh men see only flesh fornications when in fact it is a spiritual matter.

s

Luk 16:29-31 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Right back to the beginning (so to speak) of the discourse ...

Luk 16:16-17 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

The face of him who sits on a throne ...

 

[squint]

Luk 16:29-31 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Right back to the beginning (so to speak) of the discourse ...

Luk 16:16-17 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

The face of him who sits on a throne ...

It is the press to live by Every Word of God that a believer finds His Life.

Therein, the matter of the 'rich man' is a matter of personal understanding for me unto life, and God will work His Own way with the enemy, that rich man who can not pass the divide to touch Lazarus. Not even a finger wet from one to the other.

Let that rich man suffer in the thirst that will not and can not be quenched.

It is impossible as Abraham noted:

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

This is the fact of our own deliverance from EVIL. We do not give the heavenly to that wanderer of dry tormenting places one drop of mercy, as it is not possible. If that one had any truth to give to his brothers, he would have given it himself, but he did not because he is in fact a LIAR and has always been a LIAR as are his brothers who will not and can not listen.

The one who cries for mercy is the one who never gave any in his dark life.

So yes, we are advised to think carefully 'how we measure.'

1 Corinthians 15:50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

The coming of our HOPE in new habitation clothed will be incorruptible, not as the body we currently have, subject to corruption, dishonor, weakness and the natural. All conditions of every believer currently.

It will be far easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a 'rich man' to enter the Kingdom. When Jesus advised the rich young ruler to 'sell everything you have' he went away, sad. They are the current possessors unwilling to give up their rule.

The rich man and Lazarus is a personal account for us all on both sides of the measures, that we know the differences. We are not 'rich men' as believers nor should we seek mercy for such that we ourselves carry.

We do not bless the corrupt with mercy. And even if the attempt is made, it is vain and futile.

Micah 6:12
For the rich men thereof are full of violence, and the inhabitants thereof have spoken lies, and their tongue is deceitful in their mouth.

Know your own rich man.

James 2:6
But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?

Yes, you will see the external exhibits aplenty.

But who can take the measure of fact within their own temple? That is the abode of the oppressors.

James 5:1
Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.

It's a guaranteed certainty. And everyone who looks in their wallet or bank account for the ruling on this matter is not looking close enough, nor can they.

enjoy!

squint

 

[x141]

The Richman, the abomination that makes the holy place desolate ...

 

[98cwitr]

The same can also be said about your opinion and personal theological beliefs

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True enough sir!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus
The same can also be said about your opinion and personal theological beliefs

True enough sir!

Now back to our regularly scheduled program of the rich-man/poor-man parable


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[dollarsbill]

Who made up that definition? Find me another parable with a proper name and I'll buy it

That's a reasonable request. Don't hold your breath waiting for any proof. There doesn't seem to be any. It is clearly literal and consistent with the NT teaching of punishment in the ETERNAL fire.

Matthew 25:41 (NASB)
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by 98cwitr Who made up that definition? Find me another parable with a proper name and I'll buy it

That's a reasonable request. Don't hold your breath waiting for any proof. There doesn't seem to be any. It is clearly literal and consistent with the NT teaching of punishment in the ETERNAL fire.

Matthew 25:41 (NASB)
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Good verse!
Wonder how the Jews of today view that

http://www.christianforums.com/t7648154/
Eternal Fire SAVES not TORTURES


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[Timothew]

That's a reasonable request.

It's reasonable. 98cwitr can look up the definition of parable in a dictionary and find a definition very similar to the one posted.

It is also a reasonable request to ask to see the no-names-can-be-used-in-a-parable rule in writing. Otherwise, a person would never know if this is a real rule or not.

 

[2KnowHim]

Jesus uses the name (nature) of Lazarus for a reason, if you get hung up on if it's a parable or not because of this, your going to miss what, why, and who this was spoken to.

Lazarus---Means Eleazar in The Hebrew, Aaron's son, and speaks to and about the current Priesthood, that was about to changed.

That is why He uses this Name, and the Color of the Robes should be your first clue.

This Parable even though very true, was against the, then present Priesthood.

Because of their Rejection of The Messiah, He was depicting in story form their fate. Only those who do not have eyes to see, what the Spirit is revealing here, will argue over if it was a parable or not, and miss the entire point of the story.

And this "IS NOT" about Eternal Torment, Or "Eternal Damnation"
But the Judgement that was about to be upon the individual heart (Gate) of the person, because they did not believe in Him, they would die in their sin, perish, destroyed, destruction was about to be laid upon them and their house.

The Rich man--The body and Soul
Lazarus--The spirit
The Gate--The heart
The Crumbs--The Living Word
The sores--sin

Both dying, one returns to the dust (was buried)
The other returns to God who gave it. depicted as (Abraham's bosom).

Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Luk 1:53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.

Luk 12:16 And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:
Luk 12:17 And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?
Luk 12:18 And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.
Luk 12:19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
Luk 12:20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?
Luk 12:21 So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Jesus uses the name (nature) of Lazarus for a reason, if you get hung up on if it's a parable or not because of this, your going to miss what, why, and who this was spoken to.

Lazarus---Means Eleazar in The Hebrew, Aaron's son, and speaks to and about the current Priesthood, that was about to changed.

That is why He uses this Name, and the Color of the Robes should be your first clue.

This Parable even though very true, was against the, then present Priesthood.

Because of their Rejection of The Messiah, He was depicting in story form their fate. Only those who do not have eyes to see, what the Spirit is revealing here, will argue over if it was a parable or not, and miss the entire point of the story...

Excellent!

Reps 4U......

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
Jesus vs the Pharisees

The self-righteous Pharisees and scribes, acknowledged by Yeshua as the legitimate religious teachers of the Jews (Matt. 23:1-3), should have been the ones telling these people of God's love for them. They should have been the ones teaching these sinners, exhorting them to return to God and receive His love and forgiveness. However, because of their faith in their own righteousness and their contempt for these tax collectors and sinners who didn't measure up to their standards, the Pharisees and scribes excluded them and considered them accursed (John 7:49).

In contrast to the rich man, we now see Lazarus. The first thing to note is that he is depicted as a beggar. This is an apt description of the Gentiles who "laid at the gate" of Judah. Paul describes the predicament of the Gentiles before they accepted the Messiah in his letter to the Ephesians:

If the Pharisees and scribes understood Yeshua's prophetic parable, it must have astonished and infuriated them. How could the Jews become alienated from God while the elect Gentiles became the "seed of Abraham"? The implication that the House of Judah and those called from the Gentile nations were to change places would have been almost impossible for the Pharisees and scribes to believe.

The fact that the rich man has five brothers is a vital clue to his true symbolic identity. Judah, the progenitor of the Jews, was the son of Jacob through Leah (Gen. 29:35). He had five full-blooded brothers: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, and Zebulun (Gen. 35:23).

While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Yeshua was speaking. They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage. Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who he was referring to with this parable. This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the House of Judah, the Jews!

 

[doright]

it Is A True Story

The Same As Jesus Sayng He Saw Satan Fall From Heaven ,

And This Is Still In Our Future, But As God He Is In Our Future Maybe 10,000 Years Now

 

[Timothew]

There are those who insist that this is not a parable but it is a true story because it contains a name, Lazarus. Doesn't this put you in the unfortunate circumstance of also needing to say "Jack and the Beanstalk" is a true story because it also contains a name? Where do you buy your magic beans?

 

[doright]

There are those who insist that this is not a parable but it is a true story because it contains a name, Lazarus. Doesn't this put you in the unfortunate circumstance of also needing to say "Jack and the Beanstalk" is a true story because it also contains a name? Where do you buy your magic beans?

TWO DIFFERENT THINGS,
IF JESUS WERE THE ONE TELLING THE STORY THEN I WOULD SAY IT IS TRUE.

HE SAID A CERTAIN RICH MAN, HE DIDN'T GIVE THE NAME BECAUSE THERE WERE PEOPLE THERE THAT WERE KIN, OR KNEW HIM

 

[Timothew]

TWO DIFFERENT THINGS,
IF JESUS WERE THE ONE TELLING THE STORY THEN I WOULD SAY IT IS TRUE.

HE SAID A CERTAIN RICH MAN, HE DIDN'T GIVE THE NAME BECAUSE THERE WERE PEOPLE THERE THAT WERE KIN, OR KNEW HIM

Okay, so there isn't really a no-names rule. What matters is if Jesus told the story? So are all of the parables also true stories because Jesus spoke them? I haven't really heard this theory before.

How about this one?
And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods. And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward. Then the steward said within himself, What shall I do? for my lord taketh away from me the stewardship: I cannot dig; to beg I am ashamed. I am resolved what to do, that, when I am put out of the stewardship, they may receive me into their houses. So he called every one of his lord's debtors unto him, and said unto the first, How much owest thou unto my lord? And he said, An hundred measures of oil. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and sit down quickly, and write fifty. Then said he to another, And how much owest thou? And he said, An hundred measures of wheat. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and write fourscore. And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely.

 

[Timothew]

TWO DIFFERENT THINGS,
IF JESUS WERE THE ONE TELLING THE STORY THEN I WOULD SAY IT IS TRUE.

HE SAID A CERTAIN RICH MAN, HE DIDN'T GIVE THE NAME BECAUSE THERE WERE PEOPLE THERE THAT WERE KIN, OR KNEW HIM

The question really was to those who tell me the parable of Lazarus and "Dives" is a true story because it contains a name. As if all stories with names in them are factual accounts.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

it Is A True Story

The Same As Jesus Sayng He Saw Satan Fall From Heaven ,

And This Is Still In Our Future, But As God He Is In Our Future Maybe 10,000 Years Now

Maybe, maybe not . I started a thread on that some years back for those interested

http://www.christianforums.com/t5536744/
Satan Falling in Luke 10 question

This is taken from another thread on "Satan".
I decided to do a translation on this verse and compare it to verses in revelation.
In my view, it appears that "Star" in revelation 9:1 could be the same event Jesus is speaking of in Luke 10:18. Any thought on this?
Btw, how do the Catholics view that "Star" since they are the interpreters for all Christiandom.
Thanks.


Luke 10:18 He said yet to them: "I beheld the Satan as lightning out of the heaven falling/pesonta <4098> (5631) ".


Reve 9:1 And the 5th messenger sounds a trumpet, and I saw a Star/astera <792> out of the heaven having fallen/peptwkota <4098>(5761) into/to the land, and was given to him the key of the well/pit of the Abyss,
2 and he opens up the well/pit of the abyss, and did ascend smoke out of the well/pit, as smoke of great furnace,

 

[Touma]

I think it is a true story.

Also, I'm here for the reps.


But truly, what can I add that hasn't already been said. I feel like when I read that story that Jesus was telling it as so.

But regardless of whether it is true or a parable, shouldn't we take the meaning to be the same? There will be a great separation between the righteous and unrighteous in death.

 

[visionary]

Satan hasn't fall from heaven yet..