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Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable (2)

LittleLambofJesus

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I believe souls in torment could speak to Abraham.
Not that it would help them much.
You would think so........

Kindgdom Bible Studies Template Page
rich man in torment Luke 16

"And he cried and said, Father Abraham! have mercy on me! and send Lazarus! that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame" (Lk. 16:24).
What? Think about it! If he is in a literal, raging flame, completely surrounded and engulfed by seething fires, would he be carrying on a conversation? Instantly his hair, eyebrows, eyelashes would have dissolved; his skin would begin blistering, and he would have only a fraction of a second to emit a bloodcurdling SCREAM! No, this conversation is not coming from a man who is completely engulfed in literal fire! What then is TORMENTING the rich man? Why, what he SEES! Notice: It says he "lift up his EYES..." even as Jesus warned the Pharisees,
You shall SEE Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the Kingdom, and you yourselves cast out!"
Shocked realization comes to the rich man's mind. According to the parable, he instantly recognizes Lazarus, and Abraham. He sees them as if in a glorious state; perhaps even engaged in partaking of a sumptuous banquet, not unlike the hundreds of banquets the rich man enjoyed during his life, all the while offering only the leavings of his table for Lazarus! The fire is a word, a burning word of authority, as Jeremiah said,
"Your word was in my heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones"
(Jer. 20:9).

Ah, it was the WORD OF THE KINGDOM brought by Jesus, which always angered, enraged, and infuriated the Jews! Provoked and indignant beyond explanation his mouth becomes completely dry, his tongue virtually cleaves to the roof of his mouth, and he cannot even moisten his lips! In mental anguish and paralyzing fright he calls out for Lazarus to at least "dip his finger in water" and COOL his Pharasaic TONGUE (doctrine of the Pharisees), for he was TORMENTED in this flame!

In the Greek, the word used here for "torment" is BASANOS which is what is commonly known in English as the "touchstone." Its proper usage in olden times was to try the genuineness of gold. The pure gold rubbed on the stone would leave a peculiar mark, different to that of other metals or alloys. Therefore it acquired a symbolic significance: a test or criterion for determining the quality or the genuineness of a thing; to test for purity or truth. The hell of the rich man was not a place where he was tortured by a torment sadistically inflicted, but a condition of testing for truth or purity. Our great God is not an almighty monster, a celestial Hitler or a heavenly Stalin, but ever the Lord of compassion and tender mercies. However, the best of earthly fathers must at times find it expedient to inflict a measure of pain and suffering on a son, to serve as a means of correction. That is the way in which the word "touchstone" is used in this parable. The rich man's torment, then, is that which is effected by the LIVING and ENERGETIC WORD of God, for this Word is the "discerner and analyzer and sifter (Wuest) of the thoughts and intents of the heart" (Heb. 4:12). When the rich man was being tormented in the flames, as he watched Lazarus from afar in Abraham's bosom, he was having his GENUINENESS AND QUALITY tested by the ESSENCE-WORD of God, which is the living spirit of prophecy, which is, in reality, God Himself - for in the beginning was the Word, and the Word WAS GOD! Truly, OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE!
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by Albion
I certainly do not believe in soul sleep, but the story of the rich man and Lazarus is almost universally considered AMONG ORTHODOX theologians to be just what you said--a parable, not literal teaching on the nature of the afterlife.
I have never really studied much on soul sleep.



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Rev Randy

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I have never really studied much on soul sleep.



.
It puts me to sleep.
I am wondering if it really matters if this was an actual event or Parable. I mean would it change the truth of it? A sister used some verses today that made me wonder.
Matthew 13:13 -15 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

13:16-17 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them

13:34-35 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake He not unto them: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus
I have never really studied much on soul sleep.

It puts me to sleep.

I am wondering if it really matters if this was an actual event or Parable. I mean would it change the truth of it? A sister used some verses today that made me wonder.
It would probably put me to sleep also....

http://www.christianforums.com/t7787336-43/#post64485000
soul sleep

Originally Posted by jsimms615
Do you believe you go to heaven immediately when you die? If not, what happens to your soul until the resurrection? Do you believe in the concept called "soul sleep"?


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LittleLambofJesus

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I would like more input from members on this. Thanks....

http://www.christianforums.com/t7306890-100/#post49298833

Original OP:

Greetings. How do others view that story Jesus told to the Jews in Luke 16 concerning the rich-man and lazarus. A parable or true story? This is one of the largest studies I have of the NT/NC.

I myself humbly view it as a "Covenantle" parable, but would like to here views from other fellow Christians of it. Thanks.......:wave:

Matthew 3:9 "And no ye should be thinking to say in yourselves 'a Father we are having, the Abraham'. For I am saying unto ye, that is able the God out of the Stones, these, to raise-up offsprings/children to the Abraham. [Luke 3:8/16:24]

Luke 16:24 And he sounding said: "Father Abraham! be thou merciful to-me! and send Lazarus!, that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water, and should be cooling down the tongue of me,--that I am being pained in this Flame."




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LittleLambofJesus

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The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable.
Many notable commentators agree with it being a parable.

Here is a favorite of mine:

Kindgdom Bible Studies Template Page

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is without question one of the least understood of all the teachings of our Lord. What is its aim? It is a similitude of something; for all the parables are similitudes, even though, like the parables of the prodigal son, and the unjust steward, both of which are in direct connection with this one, they are uttered like simple narratives, always beginning with, “A certain man,” or “There was a certain man.” Of what, then, is this parable the similitude?
Whom does the rich man represent? Who is the poor neglected beggar full of sores, lying at the rich man’s gate?

At the beginning of Jesus’ discourse in chapter fifteen of Luke the statement is made that
“He spoke this parable unto them, saying,”
(Lk. 15:3). The Greek is very definite in making the word for parable clearly a singular noun. It is “the parable this..” This statement is followed by five separate stories, the first of which is the story of the lost sheep, and the last is the story of the rich man and Lazarus. You see, the teaching in chapter sixteen is but the continuation of the discourse in chapter fifteen, without interruption.


Now, which of the five stories He gave them in this sermon was called a parable? The only one of the five which is prefaced by the claim,
“And He spoke this parable unto them,”
was the story about the lost sheep. Was the lost sheep the only one that could be called a parable?


And yet, any preacher or believer that I know will answer that the story of the lost coin, as well as the prodigal son, were also parables. Then why was the singular used - “this parable”? It should be clear to any thinking mind that all these stories were ONE PARABLE, like the facets of a diamond, as they turn each scintillates with new brilliance. Each was illustrating a view point of one great truth, and together they compose a whole. And this parabolic discourse of Jesus is continued into chapter sixteen of Luke, including the story of the rich man and Lazarus.


The truth is that all five stories are each a fractional part of the complete parable, and when we read, “He spoke this parable unto them,” this embraces the entire collection of symbol-pictures which in their completeness constituted the parable which He spoke. It is a careless assumption and an unfounded assertion to argue that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable!


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Timothew

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Jewish Story of Rich Man/Poor Man

Here is a post I found at Rethinkinghell.com, I did not write it, but I found it to be excellent and challenging:

Most scholars today recognize this passage as a parable. It is cast amongst parables, and in it we find familiar themes. The one argument against it being a parable (Jesus using a name for one of the characters), is settled quickly when the significance of the name is born out, adding depth to the overall interpretation of the parable. With that being said,

The parable doesn't discuss salvation through Christ and really doesn't focus on what happens as a result. Rather it is a parable centered around the immediate circumstances they found themselves in. The main focus of the parable is the great class disparity we find. He begged at the gate. He begged for bread. Bread to the rich was not used primarily to eat, but as napkins. Lazarus begged for the napkins of the rich, so that he could eat. How is that for economic disparity? His vulnerability is vividly expressed in the account of the dogs licking his wounds. He was unclean, unable to keep himself from becoming even fruther unclean. He was weak and broken, could not compete for jobs, he was forced to beg. He knew his end was near.

Now typically, he would not have been allowed to reside at the gate of the rich man. He would have been cleared out, much like we find today in certain districts of the city. Jesus however uses creative license to bring together two images that were structurally and intentionally kept apart by the wealthy.

An interesting note is that the poor man, who is nameless in society is named in Jesus’ parable. He is not faceless, he is significant. At the same time, the rich man who is well known and has amassed reputation with his wealth, is unknown and has no name to associate with in the parable.

Even further is that his (Lazarus’) name is significant. It may simply mean "God has helped." It may refer to Eliezer (gen 15:2) who according to the midrashic tradition was sent to "observe how the 'tenants' [were] dealing with [their] property" and their obligation to show hospitality.

Now they both die, but the rich man alone is said to be buried. His prestige afforded him a proper burial.

Now the first part of the parable discusses the great chasm between the rich and poor on earth. The gate serves as a boundary marker. It shuts out Lazarus and symbolizes the power and elite nature of the rich man. However, the bible also has a great tradition of the gate being a place of judgment, and Jesus' hearers certainly would have recalled this to mind as the parable was told (ie Amos 5:12,15a).

Lazarus is brought to Abraham's bosom? What is this? The idea of returning to their fathers? Image of a child in his fathers lap? A place of rest for martyrs? An image of honor reclining at the bosom of the host (John 13:23)? Or does this confirm the connection as Eliezer returning home to Abraham? Whatever the case, the honor and prestige and comfort of Abraham's bosom is highlighted. This feast would now be contrasted with the great feasts of the rich man in our story.

We know the rich man went to Hades, which we must not confuse with hell. It was a place of death, where everyone was thought to attend. The rich man continues to call Abraham "father" and Abraham still calls him his "child." The point here is the great role reversal. Lazarus is now on top and the rich man is now on the bottom. In fact while Lazarus begged for bread, bread that was often used as napkins, the rich man now begs for what is even MORE common, water. What a reversal! This point rings in the ears of those who lived through this sort of thing every day. And another still, as the gate protected and separated the two on earth, the chasm now does the same in reverse order in Jesus parable.

The rich man makes requests, as though he is still privileged and accustomed to his will being carried out. He perceives himself as an elite, and Lazarus an errand boy. His perspective does not seem to have changed. His character and identity of roles remains consistent with his behavior on earth. Even further he KNEW Lazarus, which exposes him even further. He knew who he was, even though he ignored him in the parable. And as his commands are ignored he begs, never wailing, never repenting. Even in his begging, he only considers his family, those of the same social structure he has belonged to. He has not changed, his concern is for himself and those like him. He still strives to maintain the chasm he has always operated with, never acknowledging Lazarus as an equal in any way that would demand change upon him.

Abraham referenced the Torah, which apparently the rich man was familiar with. But in those days, much like today, the Torah was manipulated and it can be said there were two Torahs. One that spoke of justice, peace, and equality. And another that validated and substantiated disparity and injustice. He argues his case with Abraham, "No, Abraham." He is still an elite, still seeing religion as a keeper of his lifestyle, documenting righteous and wicked according to their prosperity. He bargains for special treatment even to the end for his family. He always used insider information, used priveledge to his advantage and even now in the predictment he is in he does the same. And since Torah does not seem to help him, he requires even yet ANOTHER messenger.

Even seeing everything he has seen, the Rich man still doesnt change, repent, think differently. The irony is apparent. He asks for someone to be sent to speak to his own loved ones thinking they will get the message, even though he has still yet to get it himself.

Bultmann argues the main point is that of signs, as Jesus often denounces to this wicked generation. The rich man thinks the signs are more adequate even than the Torah and prophets!

Still others see it as a warning to those who may be considered "brothers" that are ignoring the Torah (Jeremias; Schweizer).

I see it as an indictment. The rich man's position proved him callous, ignoring the kinship he shared and the commitment therein he had towards all of creation. Lazarus on the other hand never is said to be pious or patient or humble or even believing. Simply he was weak and vulnerable and outcasted (Mt 5/Lk. 6 anyone?).

The rich man asks for Lazarus to go back as a sign? There are COUNTLESS Lazarus' on every corner! Being shut out from society, being broken by immoral structures, validated by a selfish interpretation and application of Torah. Jesus says we will always have the poor with us. The question is, is that to suggest we should not trip? Or is it to suggest, according to this parable, that we should work hard and take care of them to make it not so (ie Dt. 15?).

Therefore the parable uses the every day scent of class disparity prepares for the second portion where we are exhorted to read Moses and the Prophets. The scriptures are being upheld as sufficient and evident of Jesus' message. It is an assault on the improper way it had been used to prop up the rich and shut out the poor.

Look at what Jesus says immediately preceding this parable:

14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, were listening to all these things and were scoffing at Him. 15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves in the sight of men, but God knows your hearts; for that which is highly esteemed among men is detestable in the sight of God. 16 "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. 17 "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.

This is exactly the point of the parable between the rich man and Lazarus. This is the proper interpretation of the parable that follows. He tells the parable to enforce this point.

Jesus prefaces His parable by talking about the elite being lovers of money and their public appearance. Their own sense of high esteem is nothing to God, but rather ones obligation to the scripture, and that provides a true status as belonging to the Kingdom of God. He concludes the parable saying this:

Luke 17:1 He said to His disciples, "It is inevitable that stumbling blocks come, but woe to him through whom they come! 2 "It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he would cause one of these little ones to stumble.

This is what Jesus is referencing. The privileged twisting of the law, the perverting of its justice to uphold the comfort of the wealthy and powerful. Likewise, these oral laws imposed man's law upon the people, masquerading as God's. This is the message that our parable is squeezed between. We can't assume that the message immediately preceding and immediately following the parable, while identical, have nothing to do with the proper interpretation of the parable in which they bookend? Of course it does!

In keeping with this then, it is very appropriate to see the rich man as representing the elite and powerful who still live on earth. And their attitude is one of privileged, barking orders and taking care of themselves.

Clearly this parable does not intend to teach about the afterlife, but rather the life we live in now. It is a parable, settled amongst parables​
 
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Der Alte

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Soooo, let me see if I understand. The rich man wasn't really rich in his earthly life and your thoughts on the subject are really pureed camel? Can I agree with the latter and disagree with the former? ;) Just kidding. :D

The 'eye of a needle', whether hyperbole or an actual architectural artifact (a low arch designed to keep camels out of the city), both convey the same idea; that it is supremely difficult to pass that barrier for the subject mentioned and under the circumstances given. In this case the comparison has to do with worldly wealth.

It is generally understood that the wealthy have a different world-view than people that are forced by circumstance to rely on others. Therefore, the inference is that a wealthy, self-sufficient individual would have to rely on Y'shua's instruction and agenda rather than his own devices to enter the kingdom of heaven.

For someone used to being in control and being completely self-sufficient, this is a very difficult transition to make. To me this seems like a perfectly reasonable conclusion considering all the formerly well-heeled clients I have had to counsel after loosing their wealth. They usually do not like the idea of having to rely on anyone and often rebel by 'acting out'.

My advice? Try to interpret the literal meaning of scripture first, stay away from pureed camel and never eat day-old sushi. :thumbsup: :D :clap:

I have often cited the well known maxim abolut scripture interpretation, "If the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to look for any other sense." If the story of Lazarus and the rich man was a parable, I wonder why all of the ECF who quote the story consider it to be factual.

Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Ireneaeus, 120-202 AD, was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John.

1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognised, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment.

ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1

On the Resurrection. But he figuratively designates the vulgar rabble, attached to ephemeral pleasure, flourishing for a little, loving ornament, loving praise, and being everything but truth-loving, good for nothing but to be burned with fire. “There was a certain man,” said the Lord, narrating, “very rich, who was clothed in purple and scarlet, enjoying himself splendidly every day.” This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.

Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]

In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.

The Epistles Of Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics

A good man out of the good treasure bringeth forth good things; and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.” Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.

Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah (A.D. 260-312)

But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.
 
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Der Alte

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You would think so........

Kindgdom Bible Studies Template Page
rich man in torment Luke 16

What? Think about it! If he is in a literal, raging flame, completely surrounded and engulfed by seething fires, would he be carrying on a conversation? Instantly his hair, eyebrows, eyelashes would have dissolved; his skin would begin blistering, and he would have only a fraction of a second to emit a bloodcurdling SCREAM! No, this conversation is not coming from a man who is completely engulfed in literal fire! What then is TORMENTING the rich man? Why, what he SEES! Notice: It says he "lift up his EYES..." even as Jesus warned the Pharisees, Shocked realization comes to the rich man's mind. According to the parable, he instantly recognizes Lazarus, and Abraham. He sees them as if in a glorious state; perhaps even engaged in partaking of a sumptuous banquet, not unlike the hundreds of banquets the rich man enjoyed during his life, all the while offering only the leavings of his table for Lazarus! The fire is a word, a burning word of authority, as Jeremiah said, (Jer. 20:9).

God was able to burn a bush without it being consumed and kept three men alive inside a furnace. I think He can keep people alive to suffer punishment in a fire.

Exo 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

Dan 3:21-25
(21)
Then these men were bound in their coats, their hosen, and their hats, and their other garments, and were cast into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
(22) Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.
(23) And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
(24) Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.
(25) He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.​

Ah, it was the WORD OF THE KINGDOM brought by Jesus, which always angered, enraged, and infuriated the Jews! Provoked and indignant beyond explanation his mouth becomes completely dry, his tongue virtually cleaves to the roof of his mouth, and he cannot even moisten his lips! In mental anguish and paralyzing fright he calls out for Lazarus to at least "dip his finger in water" and COOL his Pharasaic TONGUE (doctrine of the Pharisees), for he was TORMENTED in this flame!

See previous response, above. We do not need to find figurative meanings.

In the Greek, the word used here for "torment" is BASANOS which is what is commonly known in English as the "touchstone." Its proper usage in olden times was to try the genuineness of gold. The pure gold rubbed on the stone would leave a peculiar mark, different to that of other metals or alloys. Therefore it acquired a symbolic significance: a test or criterion for determining the quality or the genuineness of a thing; to test for purity or truth. The hell of the rich man was not a place where he was tortured by a torment sadistically inflicted, but a condition of testing for truth or purity. . .

The etymological fallacy, if a word meant something at one time then it always means that. The rich man was not gold or a black siliceous stone so the original meaning is not relevant.

G931 βάσανος basanos
Thayer Definition:
1) a touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
2) the rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth
3) torture, torment, acute pains
3a) of the pains of a disease
3b) of those in hell after death
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: perhaps remotely from the same as G939 (through the notion of going to the bottom)
Citing in TDNT: 1:561, 96​

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented [βάσανος] with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment [βάσανος] ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented [βάσανος] day and night for ever and ever.​
 
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LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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Jewish Story of Rich Man/Poor Man

Here is a post I found at Rethinkinghell.com, I did not write it, but I found it to be excellent and challenging:
Most scholars today recognize this passage as a parable. It is cast amongst parables, and in it we find familiar themes. The one argument against it being a parable (Jesus using a name for one of the characters), is settled quickly when the significance of the name is born out, adding depth to the overall interpretation of the parable. With that being said,

The parable doesn't discuss salvation through Christ and really doesn't focus on what happens as a result. Rather it is a parable centered around the immediate circumstances they found themselves in. The main focus of the parable is the great class disparity we find. He begged at the gate. He begged for bread. Bread to the rich was not used primarily to eat, but as napkins. Lazarus begged for the napkins of the rich, so that he could eat. How is that for economic disparity? His vulnerability is vividly expressed in the account of the dogs licking his wounds. He was unclean, unable to keep himself from becoming even fruther unclean. He was weak and broken, could not compete for jobs, he was forced to beg. He knew his end was near.

Now typically, he would not have been allowed to reside at the gate of the rich man. He would have been cleared out, much like we find today in certain districts of the city. Jesus however uses creative license to bring together two images that were structurally and intentionally kept apart by the wealthy.

An interesting note is that the poor man, who is nameless in society is named in Jesus’ parable. He is not faceless, he is significant. At the same time, the rich man who is well known and has amassed reputation with his wealth, is unknown and has no name to associate with in the parable.

Even further is that his (Lazarus’) name is significant. It may simply mean "God has helped." It may refer to Eliezer (gen 15:2) who according to the midrashic tradition was sent to "observe how the 'tenants' [were] dealing with [their] property" and their obligation to show hospitality.

Now they both die, but the rich man alone is said to be buried. His prestige afforded him a proper burial.

Now the first part of the parable discusses the great chasm between the rich and poor on earth. The gate serves as a boundary marker. It shuts out Lazarus and symbolizes the power and elite nature of the rich man. However, the bible also has a great tradition of the gate being a place of judgment, and Jesus' hearers certainly would have recalled this to mind as the parable was told (ie Amos 5:12,15a).

Lazarus is brought to Abraham's bosom? What is this? The idea of returning to their fathers? Image of a child in his fathers lap? A place of rest for martyrs? An image of honor reclining at the bosom of the host (John 13:23)? Or does this confirm the connection as Eliezer returning home to Abraham? Whatever the case, the honor and prestige and comfort of Abraham's bosom is highlighted. This feast would now be contrasted with the great feasts of the rich man in our story.

We know the rich man went to Hades, which we must not confuse with hell. It was a place of death, where everyone was thought to attend. The rich man continues to call Abraham "father" and Abraham still calls him his "child." The point here is the great role reversal. Lazarus is now on top and the rich man is now on the bottom. In fact while Lazarus begged for bread, bread that was often used as napkins, the rich man now begs for what is even MORE common, water. What a reversal! This point rings in the ears of those who lived through this sort of thing every day. And another still, as the gate protected and separated the two on earth, the chasm now does the same in reverse order in Jesus parable.

The rich man makes requests, as though he is still privileged and accustomed to his will being carried out. He perceives himself as an elite, and Lazarus an errand boy. His perspective does not seem to have changed. His character and identity of roles remains consistent with his behavior on earth. Even further he KNEW Lazarus, which exposes him even further. He knew who he was, even though he ignored him in the parable. And as his commands are ignored he begs, never wailing, never repenting. Even in his begging, he only considers his family, those of the same social structure he has belonged to. He has not changed, his concern is for himself and those like him. He still strives to maintain the chasm he has always operated with, never acknowledging Lazarus as an equal in any way that would demand change upon him.

Abraham referenced the Torah, which apparently the rich man was familiar with. But in those days, much like today, the Torah was manipulated and it can be said there were two Torahs. One that spoke of justice, peace, and equality. And another that validated and substantiated disparity and injustice. He argues his case with Abraham, "No, Abraham." He is still an elite, still seeing religion as a keeper of his lifestyle, documenting righteous and wicked according to their prosperity. He bargains for special treatment even to the end for his family. He always used insider information, used priveledge to his advantage and even now in the predictment he is in he does the same. And since Torah does not seem to help him, he requires even yet ANOTHER messenger.

Even seeing everything he has seen, the Rich man still doesnt change, repent, think differently. The irony is apparent. He asks for someone to be sent to speak to his own loved ones thinking they will get the message, even though he has still yet to get it himself.

Bultmann argues the main point is that of signs, as Jesus often denounces to this wicked generation. The rich man thinks the signs are more adequate even than the Torah and prophets!

Still others see it as a warning to those who may be considered "brothers" that are ignoring the Torah (Jeremias; Schweizer).

I see it as an indictment. The rich man's position proved him callous, ignoring the kinship he shared and the commitment therein he had towards all of creation. Lazarus on the other hand never is said to be pious or patient or humble or even believing. Simply he was weak and vulnerable and outcasted (Mt 5/Lk. 6 anyone?).

The rich man asks for Lazarus to go back as a sign? There are COUNTLESS Lazarus' on every corner! Being shut out from society, being broken by immoral structures, validated by a selfish interpretation and application of Torah. Jesus says we will always have the poor with us. The question is, is that to suggest we should not trip? Or is it to suggest, according to this parable, that we should work hard and take care of them to make it not so (ie Dt. 15?).

Therefore the parable uses the every day scent of class disparity prepares for the second portion where we are exhorted to read Moses and the Prophets. The scriptures are being upheld as sufficient and evident of Jesus' message. It is an assault on the improper way it had been used to prop up the rich and shut out the poor.

Look at what Jesus says immediately preceding this parable:

14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, were listening to all these things and were scoffing at Him. 15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves in the sight of men, but God knows your hearts; for that which is highly esteemed among men is detestable in the sight of God. 16 "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. 17 "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.

This is exactly the point of the parable between the rich man and Lazarus. This is the proper interpretation of the parable that follows. He tells the parable to enforce this point.

Jesus prefaces His parable by talking about the elite being lovers of money and their public appearance. Their own sense of high esteem is nothing to God, but rather ones obligation to the scripture, and that provides a true status as belonging to the Kingdom of God. He concludes the parable saying this:

Luke 17:1 He said to His disciples, "It is inevitable that stumbling blocks come, but woe to him through whom they come! 2 "It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he would cause one of these little ones to stumble.

This is what Jesus is referencing. The privileged twisting of the law, the perverting of its justice to uphold the comfort of the wealthy and powerful. Likewise, these oral laws imposed man's law upon the people, masquerading as God's. This is the message that our parable is squeezed between. We can't assume that the message immediately preceding and immediately following the parable, while identical, have nothing to do with the proper interpretation of the parable in which they bookend? Of course it does!

In keeping with this then, it is very appropriate to see the rich man as representing the elite and powerful who still live on earth. And their attitude is one of privileged, barking orders and taking care of themselves.

Clearly this parable does not intend to teach about the afterlife, but rather the life we live in now. It is a parable, settled amongst parables
Thank you for that post and the link. Great stuff on there!

There seems to be no shortage of commentaries for that parable.
It is actually my own largest study of the Bible :)


https://www.google.com/search?hl=en....1ac.1.34.heirloom-hp..14.33.3374.eDX29pnfojA
Search: "Rich man and lazarus luke 16 commentaries"
About 72,000 results

http://www.tentmaker.org/

Commentary - The Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man has been the foundation for many of the erroneous beliefs about "hell" within traditional Christianity. Some have viewed it not as a parable, but as a true story Christ told to give details about the punishment of sinners in hell

For more material on Hell, Lake of Fire, Rich Man and Lazarus, damnation, etc. visit:
Hell

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Timothew

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God was able to burn a bush without it being consumed and kept three men alive inside a furnace. I think He can keep people alive to suffer punishment in a fire.

Good point Der Alter.

I agree that if anyone suffers eternal punishment in fire, it is because God must keep them alive in that fire to feel the eternal punishment.
 
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Timothew

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The question asked in the OP isn't really important. The real question should be:Is it truth?

To know the answer to the question "What is true?", A person has to understand what they are reading.

What was Jesus' point in telling this story?
What truth was He conveying to us?
Why did Luke include this story in his gospel?

If a person believes that the rich guy was an actual person who was in hades experiencing eternal torment in the flames, they come away with one version of "the truth". If a person reads this story as a parable that Jesus told, then they will look for the point Jesus was making by telling this parable.

We all agree that it is "truth". We disagree on the point of the parable.
 
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squint

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If anyone ever played Super Mario when it first came out and subsequently discovered that by jumping on the little turtle tumbling down the pyramid steps would produce dozens of new lives rather than the standard 3, they were delighted at finding that SHORTCUT.

There is a shortcut to understand all parables.

Jesus gave it to all of us in Mark 4.

There are 3 components to every parable. They are plain as day.

God
Man
Satan

If these 3 are incorporated into the understanding of any parable, then there is better assurance of accuracy. If any of the 3 are void, then the understanding is FALSE.

In the parable of the no name rich man, WHO do you think that represents?

It should be rather obvious.

s
 
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Mama Kidogo

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If anyone ever played Super Mario when it first came out and subsequently discovered that by jumping on the little turtle tumbling down the pyramid steps would produce dozens of new lives rather than the standard 3, they were delighted at finding that SHORTCUT.

There is a shortcut to understand all parables.

Jesus gave it to all of us in Mark 4.

There are 3 components to every parable. They are plain as day.

God
Man
Satan

If these 3 are incorporated into the understanding of any parable, then there is better assurance of accuracy. If any of the 3 are void, then the understanding is FALSE.

In the parable of the no name rich man, WHO do you think that represents?

It should be rather obvious.

s

You make a very good point there Squint. Too often we examine it from only one of those points and miss two thirds of the lesson being taught.
 
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squint

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You make a very good point there Squint. Too often we examine it from only one of those points and miss two thirds of the lesson being taught.

There are some rules that come with this engagement.

One, if any person thinks themselves personally exempt from the reality of Mark 4:15, then they are already under the lying denial of the occupying party and they will not understand, nor can they, as God Purposefully locks out all liars from understandings.

Once that door is opened by HONESTY, then a flood of information will come pouring in from ABOVE, from the scriptures.

The topic of the 'rich man' in the text is deep territory, but it is hidden from view in PLAIN SIGHT.

It's quite fascinating.

s
 
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