Rfk drops ball

[Say it aint so]

Measles Is Roaring Back. We Are Not Ready.​

The erosion of public confidence in vaccines alongside the increasing strain on hospitals may lead to catastrophic results for children and their families. Measles has already been seen in at least 30 states in 2026, with an estimated 92 percent of cases in people who are unvaccinated. In 2025, 11 percent of the 2,284 people infected with measles were hospitalized, and three died. As a result, the United States is at risk of losing its measles elimination status, a designation given to countries that haven’t had continuous spread of the disease for over a year.

NYT

Judge Strikes Down Kennedy’s Vaccine Policies​

In a severe blow to the Trump administration’s health agenda, a federal judge in Massachusetts on Monday blocked the government from implementing a series of decisions on vaccines made over the last year by Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

The ruling also reversed, at least for the time being, all decisions made by the panelists that Mr. Kennedy appointed to the Advisory Committee for Immunization Practices, which makes recommendations on which vaccines Americans should take. The court decision will prevent the committee from meeting later this week, as it was scheduled to do.

The judge’s ruling brought an abrupt halt to the major changes that Mr. Kennedy, who has long been skeptical of vaccines, had set in motion, upending national vaccine policy and making sweeping revisions to the recommendations for what shots are given and when. Those included cutting down the number of diseases covered by routine immunization, and restricting access to Covid vaccines, two pillars of Mr. Kennedy’s vaccine agenda.

It's mind boggling we are going through this in the USof A, year 2026.
Elections have consequences, and we are seeing those consequences negatively effecting not only health, but events all around the world.
Can we stop electing folks unfit for office who turn around and appoint people unfit for that appointment?

 

[probinson]

It's mind boggling we are going through this in the USof A, year 2026.
Elections have consequences, and we are seeing those consequences negatively effecting not only health, but events all around the world.
Can we stop electing folks unfit for office who turn around and appoint people unfit for that appointment?

The election of Trump is not why there has been such a rapid erosion of trust in vaccines. You may recall that before this election, there was a pandemic. And you may recall that the way public health responded was erratic, irrational and ineffective. And you may recall that there was a new vaccine mandated to the point you had to show your papers to eat out in NYC. And you may recall that the vaccine was not anywhere near as effective as promised. And if you were on this forum, you may recall some people (like me) warning of the dangers of overpromising on the efficacy, mandating it, and the deleterious effects it would have on ALL vaccines. On May 18, 2021, I said this in this forum:

What's at stake is trust in all vaccinations. All it will take is for one confirmed cases of an AE that kills an otherwise healthy child as a result of the vaccine, and public trust in not only this vaccination, but all vaccinations, will plummet. We need to be able to trust that our public health experts and regulatory systems are doing their jobs based on sound data, not panic and public pressure.​

And now, just a few years later, here we are. While RFK is a convenient scapegoat, the bottom line is, trust in public health took a nosedive because of the astonishingly inept response to COVID and the vaccine mandates. The people that mandated and supported the mandating of the COVID vaccine should own this collapse in the public's trust and stop trying to blame RFK for their failures.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

The election of Trump is not why there has been such a rapid erosion of trust in vaccines. You may recall that before this election, there was a pandemic. And you may recall that the way public health responded was erratic, irrational and ineffective. And you may recall that there was a new vaccine mandated to the point you had to show your papers to eat out in NYC. And you may recall that the vaccine was not anywhere near as effective as promised. And if you were on this forum, you may recall some people (like me) warning of the dangers of overpromising on the efficacy, mandating it, and the deleterious effects it would have on ALL vaccines. On May 18, 2021, I said this in this forum:

What's at stake is trust in all vaccinations. All it will take is for one confirmed cases of an AE that kills an otherwise healthy child as a result of the vaccine, and public trust in not only this vaccination, but all vaccinations, will plummet. We need to be able to trust that our public health experts and regulatory systems are doing their jobs based on sound data, not panic and public pressure.​

And now, just a few years later, here we are. While RFK is a convenient scapegoat, the bottom line is, trust in public health took a nosedive because of the astonishingly inept response to COVID and the vaccine mandates. The people that mandated and supported the mandating of the COVID vaccine should own this collapse in the public's trust and stop trying to blame RFK for their failures.

I know that you are not suggesting that President Trump made a mistake with the COVID-19 vaccines and Operation Light Speed.

 

[Hans Blaster]

I know that you are not suggesting that President Trump made a mistake with the COVID-19 vaccines and Operation Light Speed.

Without looking, they probably are. It is sad.

 

[probinson]

I know that you are not suggesting that President Trump made a mistake with the COVID-19 vaccines and Operation Light Speed.

However one feels about the COVID vaccines themselves, public health's biggest unforced error was mandating them. Those mandates did immense amounts of harm to trust in public health, and even an amateur like me was able to predict the collapse of trust in all vaccines as a result that is now upon us.

 

[Say it aint so]

The election of Trump is not why there has been such a rapid erosion of trust in vaccines. You may recall that before this election, there was a pandemic. And you may recall that the way public health responded was erratic, irrational and ineffective. And you may recall that there was a new vaccine mandated to the point you had to show your papers to eat out in NYC. And you may recall that the vaccine was not anywhere near as effective as promised. And if you were on this forum, you may recall some people (like me) warning of the dangers of overpromising on the efficacy, mandating it, and the deleterious effects it would have on ALL vaccines. On May 18, 2021, I said this in this forum:

What's at stake is trust in all vaccinations. All it will take is for one confirmed cases of an AE that kills an otherwise healthy child as a result of the vaccine, and public trust in not only this vaccination, but all vaccinations, will plummet. We need to be able to trust that our public health experts and regulatory systems are doing their jobs based on sound data, not panic and public pressure.​

And now, just a few years later, here we are. While RFK is a convenient scapegoat, the bottom line is, trust in public health took a nosedive because of the astonishingly inept response to COVID and the vaccine mandates. The people that mandated and supported the mandating of the COVID vaccine should own this collapse in the public's trust and stop trying to blame RFK for their failures.

As related to the two articles I posted, the election is exactly the reason. There has been a long political platform of one party to convince their constituents to not trust institutions. Not to trust the people who have life long years of academic and career work in a variety fields. We see it from climate change to election results. As far as the covid vaccine being the reason why we are no longer stocking bodies like chord wood, given that efficiency come infection, severity, hospitalization, and mortality that outcome speaks for itself.

 

[rambot]

The election of Trump is not why there has been such a rapid erosion of trust in vaccines. You may recall that before this election, there was a pandemic. And you may recall that the way public health responded was erratic, irrational and ineffective. And you may recall that there was a new vaccine mandated to the point you had to show your papers to eat out in NYC. And you may recall that the vaccine was not anywhere near as effective as promised. And if you were on this forum, you may recall some people (like me) warning of the dangers of overpromising on the efficacy, mandating it, and the deleterious effects it would have on ALL vaccines. On May 18, 2021, I said this in this forum:

What's at stake is trust in all vaccinations. All it will take is for one confirmed cases of an AE that kills an otherwise healthy child as a result of the vaccine, and public trust in not only this vaccination, but all vaccinations, will plummet. We need to be able to trust that our public health experts and regulatory systems are doing their jobs based on sound data, not panic and public pressure.​

And now, just a few years later, here we are. While RFK is a convenient scapegoat, the bottom line is, trust in public health took a nosedive because of the astonishingly inept response to COVID and the vaccine mandates.

Keep blaming systems when it's a population problem. They are being fed "misleading" information about vaccines.

There is good information to be found. Not only that the success of vaccinations is so commonplace that people don't even see it as evidence of theri success.

Honestly, I think the biggest problem is the level of fear and and the inability to properly assess risk in the population. It doesn't help when there are individuals and groups ACTIVELY working to UNDERMINE America's trust in istitutions.

 

[probinson]

As related to the two articles I posted, the election is exactly the reason. There has been a long political platform of one party to convince their constituents to not trust institutions. Not to trust the people who have life long years of academic and career work in a variety fields. We see it from climate change to election results. As far as the covid vaccine being the reason why we are no longer stocking bodies like chord wood, given that efficiency come infection, severity, hospitalization, and mortality that outcome speaks for itself.

Uh huh. I see you're one of the adherents to the faulty belief that the COVID vaccines saved MILLIONS!!!!!!! of lives. Of course, that claim collapses even under a modicum of scrutiny.

As far as the loss of trust, it has been earned.

 

[Say it aint so]

Uh huh. I see you're one of the adherents to the faulty belief that the COVID vaccines saved MILLIONS!!!!!!! of lives. Of course, that claim collapses even under a modicum of scrutiny.

As far as the loss of trust, it has been earned.

Yep, trust lost. Right along with trust in a round earth and the moon landing.

 

[probinson]

Keep blaming systems when it's a population problem. They are being fed "misleading" information about vaccines.

If you say so. But if you lie to people long enough, they'll eventually stop listening altogether.

There is good information to be found. Not only that the success of vaccinations is so commonplace that people don't even see it as evidence of theri success.

Circular logic is circular?

Honestly, I think the biggest problem is the level of fear and and the inability to properly assess risk in the population.

Boy, is that ever the truth! Probably not the way you meant it, but it's true nonetheless.

It doesn't help when there are individuals and groups ACTIVELY working to UNDERMINE America's trust in istitutions.

It also doesn't help when our captured regulatory industries serve the interest of pharmaceutical companies and not the interests of people's health and wellbeing. There are countless examples if you just look.

 

[probinson]

Yep, trust lost. Right along with trust in a round earth and the moon landing.

Once upon a time, it was commonplace knowledge that mandating medical interventions was a guaranteed recipe for failure. I've posted this many times before. It's a pandemic preparedness plan that the ACLU published in 2008. Regarding mandates, it stated:

​

Lessons from History​

​

American history contains vivid reminders that grafting the values of law enforcement and national security onto public health is both ineffective and dangerous. Too often, fears aroused by disease and epidemics have justified abuses of state power. Highly discriminatory and forcible vaccination and quarantine measures adopted in response to outbreaks of the plague and smallpox over the past century have consistently accelerated rather than slowed the spread of disease, while fomenting public distrust and, in some cases, riots.​

​

The lessons from history should be kept in mind whenever we are told by government officials that “tough,” liberty-limiting actions are needed to protect us from dangerous diseases. Specifically:​

​

• Coercion and brute force are rarely necessary. In fact they are generally counterproductive—they gratuitously breed public distrust and encourage the people who are most in need of care to evade public health authorities.​

​

• On the other hand, effective, preventive strategies that rely on voluntary participation do work. Simply put, people do not want to contract smallpox, influenza or other dangerous diseases. They want positive government help in avoiding and treating disease. As long as public officials are working to help people rather than to punish them, people are likely to engage willingly in any and all efforts to keep their families and communities healthy.​

​

• Minorities and other socially disadvantaged populations tend to bear the brunt of tough public health measures.​

​

Pandemic Preparedness: The Need for a Public Health — Not a Law Enforcement/National Security — Approach | American Civil Liberties Union

www.aclu.org

​

​

These lessons from history were abjectly ignored during COVID, and the result, as predicted, was a collapse in the trust of the public. Public health cannot be effective without the trust of the public.

 

[Say it aint so]

Once upon a time, it was commonplace knowledge that mandating medical interventions was a guaranteed recipe for failure. I've posted this many times before. It's a pandemic preparedness plan that the ACLU published in 2008. Regarding mandates, it stated:

​

Lessons from History​

​

American history contains vivid reminders that grafting the values of law enforcement and national security onto public health is both ineffective and dangerous. Too often, fears aroused by disease and epidemics have justified abuses of state power. Highly discriminatory and forcible vaccination and quarantine measures adopted in response to outbreaks of the plague and smallpox over the past century have consistently accelerated rather than slowed the spread of disease, while fomenting public distrust and, in some cases, riots.​

​

The lessons from history should be kept in mind whenever we are told by government officials that “tough,” liberty-limiting actions are needed to protect us from dangerous diseases. Specifically:​

​

• Coercion and brute force are rarely necessary. In fact they are generally counterproductive—they gratuitously breed public distrust and encourage the people who are most in need of care to evade public health authorities.​

​

• On the other hand, effective, preventive strategies that rely on voluntary participation do work. Simply put, people do not want to contract smallpox, influenza or other dangerous diseases. They want positive government help in avoiding and treating disease. As long as public officials are working to help people rather than to punish them, people are likely to engage willingly in any and all efforts to keep their families and communities healthy.​

​

• Minorities and other socially disadvantaged populations tend to bear the brunt of tough public health measures.​

​

Pandemic Preparedness: The Need for a Public Health — Not a Law Enforcement/National Security — Approach | American Civil Liberties Union

www.aclu.org

​

​

These lessons from history were abjectly ignored during COVID, and the result, as predicted, was a collapse in the trust of the public. Public health cannot be effective without the trust of the public.

There's legal, which the ACLU is about. Then there is public healthcare. In fact, here is the ACLU's statement on covid mandates:

Far from compromising civil liberties, vaccine mandates actually further them. They protect the most vulnerable among us, including people with disabilities and fragile immune systems, children too young to be vaccinated, and communities of color hit hard by the disease.

 

[probinson]

There's legal, which the ACLU is about. Then there is public healthcare. In fact, here is the ACLU's statement on covid mandates:

So, let's compare. In 2008, the ACLU said this:

​

Highly discriminatory and forcible vaccination and quarantine measures adopted in response to outbreaks of the plague and smallpox over the past century have consistently accelerated rather than slowed the spread of disease, while fomenting public distrust and, in some cases, riots.​

The lessons from history should be kept in mind whenever we are told by government officials that “tough,” liberty-limiting actions are needed to protect us from dangerous diseases.​

​

Then during COIVD, they said this:

Far from compromising civil liberties, vaccine mandates actually further them. They protect the most vulnerable among us, including people with disabilities and fragile immune systems, children too young to be vaccinated, and communities of color hit hard by the disease.​

​

These are diametrically opposed statements coming from the same authority. Whether you meant to or not, you just provided a prime example of why trust was destroyed.

In 2008, when GWB was President, the ACLU was greatly concerned about "liberty-limiting actions" and listed "forcible vaccination" as one such action. In 2021, when Biden was President, the ACLU changed their tune completely.

Why?

Are we just supposed to accept this blatant contradiction because they are "experts"? What changed? Besides the party of the President in power, absolutely NOTHING. The "lessons from history" they warn about didn't change in 2021. Their idea that these things constitute "liberty-limiting actions" was based on what occurred OVER THE PAST CENTURY. It didn't change in 13 years.

No data informed the change of the ACLU's position. It was blatantly political in nature. If they believe what they wrote in 2008, that forcible vaccination OVER THE PAST CENTURY has consistently ACCELERATED rather than slowed the spread of disease, how could they then say that it protects the most vulnerable? That is highly illogical.

You may be willing to accept these blatant contradictions, but most people are not.

 

[hedrick]

The truth, as often, is complex. Biden started requirements at a time when there was jjustification. But he continued them when the original justificstion was gone. RFK, however, is using old resentments (many going beyond overreach with requirements for government workers) as part of a plan to attack vaccinations that are needed.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

So, let's compare. In 2008, the ACLU said this:

​

Highly discriminatory and forcible vaccination and quarantine measures adopted in response to outbreaks of the plague and smallpox over the past century have consistently accelerated rather than slowed the spread of disease, while fomenting public distrust and, in some cases, riots.​

The lessons from history should be kept in mind whenever we are told by government officials that “tough,” liberty-limiting actions are needed to protect us from dangerous diseases.​

​

Then during COIVD, they said this:

Far from compromising civil liberties, vaccine mandates actually further them. They protect the most vulnerable among us, including people with disabilities and fragile immune systems, children too young to be vaccinated, and communities of color hit hard by the disease.​

​

These are diametrically opposed statements coming from the same authority. Whether you meant to or not, you just provided a prime example of why trust was destroyed.

In 2008, when GWB was President, the ACLU was greatly concerned about "liberty-limiting actions" and listed "forcible vaccination" as one such action. In 2021, when Biden was President, the ACLU changed their tune completely.

Why?

Are we just supposed to accept this blatant contradiction because they are "experts"? What changed? Besides the party of the President in power, absolutely NOTHING. The "lessons from history" they warn about didn't change in 2021. Their idea that these things constitute "liberty-limiting actions" was based on what occurred OVER THE PAST CENTURY. It didn't change in 13 years.

No data informed the change of the ACLU's position. It was blatantly political in nature. If they believe what they wrote in 2008, that forcible vaccination OVER THE PAST CENTURY has consistently ACCELERATED rather than slowed the spread of disease, how could they then say that it protects the most vulnerable? That is highly illogical.

You may be willing to accept these blatant contradictions, but most people are not.

Ah, the ACLU, America's premier scientific and Healthcare authority.

 

[probinson]

Ah, the ACLU, America's premier scientific and Healthcare authority.

Clearly not.

I could post other pandemic preparedness plans that say pretty much the same thing. But I don't believe you're interested in an earnest discussion.

In any event, the ACLU's flip-flop is just one of countless illogical edicts and mandates made throughout COVID that destroyed the public's trust.

 

[probinson]

The truth, as often, is complex. Biden started requirements at a time when there was jjustification.

There was NEVER any justification for mandates.

But he continued them when the original justificstion was gone.

I'm curious. What do you think the "original justification" was?

 

[DaisyDay]

It's not just vaccines — parents are refusing other routine preventive care for newborns

Doctors across the nation are alarmed that skepticism fueled by rising anti-science sentiment and medical mistrust is increasingly reaching beyond vaccines to other safe and routine care for babies.

www.ksl.com

Doctors across the nation are alarmed that skepticism fueled by rising anti-science sentiment and medical mistrust is increasingly reaching beyond vaccines to other proven, routine, preventive care for babies.

A recent study in the Journal of the American Medical Association, which analyzed more than 5 million births nationwide, found that refusals of vitamin K shots nearly doubled between 2017 and 2024, from 2.9% to 5.2%. Other research suggests that parents who decline vitamin K shots are much more likely to refuse getting their newborns the hepatitis B vaccine and an eye ointment to prevent potentially blinding infections. Rates for that vaccination at birth dropped in recent years, and doctors confirm that more parents are refusing the eye medication.

"I do think these families care deeply about their infants," said Dr. Kelly Wade, a Philadelphia neonatologist. "But I hear from families that it's hard to make decisions right now because they're hearing conflicting information."
​

 

[Say it aint so]

So, let's compare. In 2008, the ACLU said this:

​

Highly discriminatory and forcible vaccination and quarantine measures adopted in response to outbreaks of the plague and smallpox over the past century have consistently accelerated rather than slowed the spread of disease, while fomenting public distrust and, in some cases, riots.​

The lessons from history should be kept in mind whenever we are told by government officials that “tough,” liberty-limiting actions are needed to protect us from dangerous diseases.​

​

Then during COIVD, they said this:

Far from compromising civil liberties, vaccine mandates actually further them. They protect the most vulnerable among us, including people with disabilities and fragile immune systems, children too young to be vaccinated, and communities of color hit hard by the disease.​

​

These are diametrically opposed statements coming from the same authority. Whether you meant to or not, you just provided a prime example of why trust was destroyed.

In 2008, when GWB was President, the ACLU was greatly concerned about "liberty-limiting actions" and listed "forcible vaccination" as one such action. In 2021, when Biden was President, the ACLU changed their tune completely.

Why?

Are we just supposed to accept this blatant contradiction because they are "experts"? What changed? Besides the party of the President in power, absolutely NOTHING. The "lessons from history" they warn about didn't change in 2021. Their idea that these things constitute "liberty-limiting actions" was based on what occurred OVER THE PAST CENTURY. It didn't change in 13 years.

No data informed the change of the ACLU's position. It was blatantly political in nature. If they believe what they wrote in 2008, that forcible vaccination OVER THE PAST CENTURY has consistently ACCELERATED rather than slowed the spread of disease, how could they then say that it protects the most vulnerable? That is highly illogical.

You may be willing to accept these blatant contradictions, but most people are not.

I guess they reexamined their position once they seen people in ICUs on ventilators still gasping like a newly landed fish and seeing the covid dead being stacked up in make shift morgues like chord wood. None of the militarization they feared post 9/11 occurred.

 

[probinson]

I guess they reexamined their position once they seen people in ICUs on ventilators still gasping like a newly landed fish and seeing the covid dead being stacked up in make shift morgues like chord wood. None of the militarization they feared post 9/11 occurred.

If you're going to use hyperbole, it's cordwood, not "chord wood".

You should really do some research into those makeshift morgues. Nearly all of them were completely unused. But boy, the image of (almost entirely empty) refrigerated trucks was clearly effective propaganda, because here you are years later still invoking that image.

You've still glossed over the fact that the recommendations were based on what happened in the past century. Theatrics like refrigerated trucks driving in the streets do not change the fact that forcible vaccination and quarantine policies over the past ONE HUNDRED YEARS have CONSISTENTLY ACCELERATED the spread of disease and fomented distrust.