Revival

[th1bill]

2Ch 7:14 if my people, who are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.


Our Church Family began the move towards Revival last night with our new Pastor, now, at the helm. Revival has assumed a false identity in the Christian Church today largely, I believe because of our lust for excitement. In this verse we find God's view on this matter and we, His people, should begin at this point if we, in our hearts, seek to please Him.


To begin, we see that the verse is not addressed to the Lost Man. The LORD is addressing His people and the World does not have much to do with the Judea-Christian God and tends to completely discredit Him. And then we see to people defined, clearly, as those called by His name.


Now, the New Testament and the New Covenant Christian is, at best, a misnomer but they will explain to us that all of the Old Testament has been superseded or over-turned by the writing and sayings of Jesus. Let's examine that Rabbit Trail for just a moment. In Genesis 1:1 we learn that God, and this is often thought of as God the Father, created all that is. And then in Mal. 3:6 we learn one absolute fact and one more true principal about God. First He does not change, as men do. And the principal has to do with God's permissive will, because of it, much is not destroyed!


And to clarify what began this distraction, Jesus is the God of the Old Testament. (John 1:1-3) In Matt. 5:17 Jesus even took the time to point out that the Law, the first five books, and the words of the prophets will never pass away, go without effect on our daily lives, until everything is completed. All of the Christian version of the Bible is the word of God and that makes 2Chro. 7:14 important to us.


Next we find that we must humble ourselves and the requires self control! When I was on stage I liked to have at least two of my Guitars there... it impresses girls and that is false pride. I liked to make an impression when I walked in, so I wore my Silver Belly Stetson or one of my other expensive toppers and my boots, belt, buckle and the other gear... all to impress. When I converted and began to follow my LORD all of that went into the toilet. I began to exercise control, as I never had in my previous forty-five years. All that I do, say or wear is planned to bring honor and glory to Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God the Father. (I do not always succeed but I try.)


And the we must do what we were doing when we turned our lives over to God in the first place and often forget to do with time, seek the face of God. When I was training for my purpose in the Army, Helicopter Crew Chief, I first had to learn to put my socks on correctly, clean my rifle, march and a complete list of the basics a professional soldier must know before I was ever allowed to even look at a Tool Box and I began to wonder if I would ever fly... it was almost six months of daily training before I could sit inside a Chopper.


The Christian is much more fortunate, from day one we can walk with God... if we seek after Him. When we seek Revival, yes, we hope to influence the Lost to turn from their evil ways and to be saved but that is Conversion, not Revival. Revival occurs when we revive our desire to serve God. Never had the desire in the first place? Maybe it's time you do a Spiritual Inventory and consult with your Pastor. Don't worry, you'll not upset his world but you might cause a revival in both of your lives.

 

[revrobor]

God was speaking to Solomon in a dream regarding His Israelite followers. 2 Cron. 7:14 is not a promise to the U.S.A. or to Christians.

 

[gideons300]

God was speaking to Solomon in a dream regarding His Israelite followers. 2 Cron. 7:14 is not a promise to the U.S.A. or to Christians.

What a sad, myoptic, hopeless, unbelief-filled answer. This verse is a principle of God's dealings with His creation as to what moves His hand on our behalf. Christians have been led into pastures that can barely support life, and pastors have muddied the waters with their feet and the sheep are scattered over every high hill, weary because of the way.

Our lack of hunger and brokenness and our contentment with nice tidy doctrines as a substutute for life flowing out of our bellies will keep us in this miserable state your answer so typifies, until we discover the cure for our lukewarmness is a deep tear-filled repentance (in sackcloth and ashes if needs be), a heart broken for our contentment without possessing the glorious liberty of the children of God. Only then will our eyes be able to see the amazing promises of God as the answer to our pharisee-imitating religious state. Or, we can sit around in our backslidden mess until God spews us out of His mouth. It is our choice.

Blessings and I am praying for you, and me and all of us,

Gideon

 

[revrobor]

What a sad, myoptic, hopeless, unbelief-filled answer. This verse is a principle of God's dealings with His creation as to what moves His hand on our behalf. Christians have been led into pastures that can barely support life, and pastors have muddied the waters with their feet and the sheep are scattered over every high hill, weary because of the way.

Our lack of hunger and brokenness and our contentment with nice tidy doctrines as a substutute for life flowing out of our bellies will keep us in this miserable state your answer so typifies, until we discover the cure for our lukewarmness is a deep tear-filled repentance (in sackcloth and ashes if needs be), a heart broken for our contentment without possessing the glorious liberty of the children of God. Only then will our eyes be able to see the amazing promises of God as the answer to our pharisee-imitating religious state. Or, we can sit around in our backslidden mess until God spews us out of His mouth. It is our choice.

Blessings and I am praying for you, and me and all of us,

Gideon

Are those all the insulting adjectives you could find? God has wonderful things in store for us. But we just can't claim a verse not directed to us to say He has. There are plenty of other verses to build our confidence.

 

[gideons300]

Are those all the insulting adjectives you could find? God has wonderful things in store for us. But we just can't claim a verse not directed to us to say He has. There are plenty of other verses to build our confidence.

Please forgive me if I misread your answer, but you mentioned nothing of other scriptures that do indicate we can indeed move God's hand to bless us with revival by fervent prayer and hungering after more than we now possess.

I am simply tired of so many who have great trust that there will be a great falling away, and yet who stand staunchly that because there is not a clear cut prophetic word about an end time revival, that we must settle for lukewarm until the day Jesus shows up, and that we must be doing "OK".

It is at times like this that we ought to be like the widow woman who gave the king no rest until he granted her petition. The fact that we are content without revival, with dead prayer closets, with going-through-the-motions Christianity, with unburdened hearts for the unsaved, is lost on us and most simpy do not care. No wonder God is ready to spew this brand of Christianity out of His mouth. The evil king granted her request just to shut her up, so how much more shall our good God grant our fervent cries to Him for more of Him?

I stand by my take of 2 Chronicles 7:14 as the principle of how God acts with His people, whether they be with the Jews or with us today. If the Jews were backslidden, they at least had an excuse, for they labored under the heavy hand of the law. But for us, we have no such excuse. We do see the full sacrifice of what it cost God to set us free, we do see the extent of the love He has shown us, and for us to settle into lukewarmness of heart is a sin of gigantic proportions. One day we will see that

Again, brother, I meant nothing personally, and I do apologize for I realize my wording could have been better chosen. I was unduly harsh. Please forgive me.

Blessings,

Gideon

 

[th1bill]

gideons300,
God bless my brother.

Bob,
My first reaction was to ignore your remarks as just more of the bland New Testament Christianity. First of all, the Bible, all of it is relevant to every human being on the earth today, yesterday and tomorrow. I understand that you, likely attend one of those church buildings where they do not teach the paragraph in Matthew 5, composed of verses 17 through 20 but the fact is that Jesus taught us, the people of the Way, will never disregard the Old Testament, the bible He (John 1:1-3) wrote. How can a man or a woman of God ever ignore these words? The entirety of the New Testament is the Life Application Commentary on how to apply the Law and the words of the prophets to our daily lives.

gideon300 did not insult you except that what he wrote is true, thatś a matter for prayer on your part.

 

[revrobor]

gideons300,
God bless my brother.

Bob,
My first reaction was to ignore your remarks as just more of the bland New Testament Christianity. First of all, the Bible, all of it is relevant to every human being on the earth today, yesterday and tomorrow. I understand that you, likely attend one of those church buildings where they do not teach the paragraph in Matthew 5, composed of verses 17 through 20 but the fact is that Jesus taught us, the people of the Way, will never disregard the Old Testament, the bible He (John 1:1-3) wrote. How can a man or a woman of God ever ignore these words? The entirety of the New Testament is the Life Application Commentary on how to apply the Law and the words of the prophets to our daily lives.

gideon300 did not insult you except that what he wrote is true, thatś a matter for prayer on your part.

Not only is 2 Chron.7:14 not applicable to the Church today there are a number of verses that prophesy just the opposite will happen in the last days.

 

[gideons300]

Not only is 2 Chron.7:14 not applicable to the Church today there are a number of verses that prophesy just the opposite will happen in the last days.

Brother, I do not know if you readmy response to you but I suggest you re-read it. First of all, you assume that the verse in 2nd Chroniclesis not applicable to His people today. You have no way of knowing this for a fact, none, unless God Himself appeared to you to tell you directly. What is shared there by our Father is a principle of what moves His hand, what gets to His heart. Brokenness, Hunger. Repentance. Desire to be freed from the grip of sin, instead of being satisfied to stay in its power, but revelling in the forgiveness His grace offers.

We are a church have forgotten that there is another principle we need to walk out:

"Let every one that nameth the nameof the Lord depart from iniquity."

Why will there be a great falling away in the last days? Because our current take on the gospels churns out pharisees left and right, but there is not enough power to set a man free from the rebel flesh living inside him. We have limited our God with our unbelief and the promises of God that are to set us free indeed become "theory" to us, or "ideals", but certainly not for His children to walk out for the world to see in this life Right?

We are trying to pawn off our religion as Christianity, and are duplicating the error the Jews made. Pride is our cornerstone, not brokenness, and it is no wonder at all that many will walk away in disgust.

But I am convinced there are others, the five virgins with oil who also are awakening from their deep religious, go-through-the-motions religious sleep and they are going to fulfill
2 Chronicles 7:14 whether it was written for them or not.

Like the Samaritan woman who was curtly told by Jesus that it was not right to take the childrens bread (the Jews, who Jesus was sent to) and to give it to dogs, these people will not care if they "qualify" or not. They will break before Him and cry out for freedom from the grip of sins, both secret and not so, from a religion that has a form of godliness but denies the power thereof. They will tire of drawing near Him with their lips and yet have their hearts far from Him. The will seek Him with all their heart, and guess what, Bob? They WILL find Him!

Now, our job is to decide which virgin we are going to be.

Blessings,

Gideon

 

[revrobor]

Gideon:

I am not part of the Christian religion. I am a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ. If I told you I heard that directly from God you would probably accuse me of being delusional. So I simply share what He has taught me.

 

[IisJustMe]

I find myself in agreement with Revrober, which as he well knows is highly unusual. But I can support the validity of this view quite easily (though perhaps lengthily).

Let’s examine this passage and see if there is any application at all to the USA and our current national problems.

Chapter 7 is about the dedication of the new temple Solomon had built in Jerusalem. But, it follows chapter 6, which includes a lengthy prayer by Solomon beseeching God to hear the nation when they sin if they turn back to God and repent. After all the ceremony, which took place over several days, God appeared to Solomon at night (7:12) and responded to his prayer. The verse in question is a verbatim response by God specifically to and exclusive of all else of Solomon's prayer. The entire context of God's appearance to Solomon confirms that.

2 Chronicles 7:14 NASB
12 Then the LORD appeared to Solomon at night and said to him, "I have heard your prayer and have chosen this place for Myself as a house of sacrifice.
13 "If I shut up the heavens so that there is no rain, or if I command the locust to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among My people,
14 and My people who are called by My name humble themselves and pray and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
15 "Now My eyes will be open and My ears attentive to the prayer offered in this place.
16 "For now I have chosen and consecrated this house that My name may be there forever , and My eyes and My heart will be there perpetually. [Emphasis added]
​

God said that if and when He brought trial upon Israel, if they would pray, and seek His face and turn from their sin, then He would hear from heaven and forgive them and heal their land. In v. 15, He says, "Now My eyes will be open and My ear attentive to the prayer offered in this place [the Temple]." We aren't in the Temple, as there is no Temple.

So, the promise of vs. 14 will be God’s action when Israel properly responds to God’s discipline. Now, an important thing to remember is that, from the beginning of the Mosaic covenant with Israel, there was a condition of obedience in order to be blessed. We can see this condition in passages such as Leviticus 26:3-46 where God gives an “if, then” promise: If Israel is careful to obey God’s commands, then God will give them physical blessings. In Deuteronomy chapters 28-30 we find that if Israel obeys God, then their blessings will include children, crops, increased livestock, peace in the land, prosperity, and establishment as God’s holy people. In those same chapters we learn that if Israel disobeyed God’s commands, then God would bring discipline -- curses -- upon them, which would result in a lack of children, poor crops, enemies triumphing over them, poverty, and they would be scattered.

So in context, this is what the passage says [with my annotations added for clarity]: If My people [Israel] who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land [in accordance with My covenant promises].

We know that the Old Testament is indeed for our instruction (Romans 15:4), but not every promise in it applies to the Christian; many were directed to specific individuals and incidents. Yes, Christians are now God’s people (and Israel still is also), and as a general rule, we know that God blesses those who obey him and disciplines those who disobey. But the promise of 2 Chronicles was a specific promise to a specific nation based on a specific covenant and in response to a specific prayer. Christians can not claim any part of this promise.

The promise of 2 Chronicles 7:14 is based on the covenant between God and Israel; it is not based on God and any other nation or people. When the passage talks about God’s people, it is not about anyone but Israel. The USA has never been God’s people; only the nation of Israel has borne that title. Christians are indeed God’s people, but not as a nation, but as individual believers. The promise of 2 Chronicles 7:14 is not for Christians.

That doesn't deny the power of God's people of whatever nation or denomination when they are collectively in prayer. Obviously prayer has incredible power and effective results. In that aspect, the teaching of 2 Chronicles can have an impact on our own habits as Christians. Not as a nation, because the nation as a whole will not pray, because not all are Christians and we have never had a covenant with God as a nation. So don't think either myself or (taking the liberty of speaking for him) Revrober are speaking against prayer. We aren't. But this passage is not a promise to anyone but Israel. The context forbids us from reading it any other way.

 

[gideons300]

The promise of 2 Chronicles 7:14 is not for Christians.

My issue is not whether or not the verse in 2 Chronicles 7:14 is for us or not. There is a principle there that we have tried to ignore, and frankly, to our shame. Jesus Himself taught this principle in different words but it is the same principle.

Brokenness, repentance, humility, hunger, faith..... these are what move our God and just as Israel (not the nation", but Israel "His people") was told the pathway back to Him, we too are told. Unfortunately, like stiffnecked Israel, we too are not listening, at least so far. Thank God this is fixing to change.

I weary of explanations theologians have as to why this or that disqualifies us from revival, or why His promises do not really mean what they clearly seem to tell us. We are Laodecia or her twin sister, and the counsel to them in Revelation 3 is the same advice God gives us today. Repent, admit our lukewarmness, cry out to Him for empowerment to walk the life God has called us to.

If we do not know the pathay to overcome sin in our lives, there is no shame in that. The shame lies in the fact we have so lowered the standard of our walks with God that we do not cry out to Him to set us free just as He clearly promised.

In fact, if you want to be labeled a radical, an extremist, a religious nutcase, just tell people you believe that sin is not to have dominion over us, that we can walk in righteousness and holiness before Him all the days of our lives. But is this not what our God has promised us? Has he not clearly told us our shield of faith WILL quench all the fiery arrows of the enemy? Has He not promised that in EVERY temptation, He would make a way of escape? Has Jesus not told us that He will keep us from falling?

May God give us eye salve, so that like the Laodecians, we may see how far we have fallen, and find repentance to move the hand of God to pour out upon us a revival that will make the day of Pentecost look like child's play. Either that, or we will find out hat being sewed out of the mouth of God actually means. I am sure theologians have an explanation.

God has told us the latter rain will be greater than the former, and as for me, I care not what theologians tell me is possible and what is not. Repenting of our unbelief in His promises is a great place to start.

Blessings,

Gideon

 

[th1bill]

Not only is 2 Chron.7:14 not applicable to the Church today there are a number of verses that prophesy just the opposite will happen in the last days.

Sir,
If you do not fall into New Testament Christian group or one of it's subgroups, you are, at best a Deist and you are not a Deist! You, like the Atheist, argue against what the Holy Spirit teaches and you have yet to demonstrate the use or any familiarity of scripture. What you have demonstrated thus far is that you are full of arrogance and pride, both sins. You have slandered gideons300 with your baseless charges and you are refusing to converse without attacks... sin! You, like gideons399 and myself are full of sin but you run in here, not suppressing but rather reveling in your ability to be unreasonable and discuss your ideas.

That chip you are sporting on your shoulder is Satan and you need to calm down. pray, submit and study. Then, like one of God's people, reenter this conversation from the position of being led by the Spirit and not display all of the religkious pride you are djsplaying right now.

 

[IisJustMe]

My issue is not whether or not the verse in 2 Chronicles 7:14 is for us or not.

That's not what you said earlier in this thread. when you said ...

]

What a sad, myoptic, hopeless, unbelief-filled answer. This verse is a principle of God's dealings with His creation as to what moves His hand on our behalf.

Had you given my post a solid reading, you would see that I stated that this passage carries within it the principle of prayer, confession, repentance, etc. But the contention by both Bill and yourself that it is a passage "for the church" simply isn't true.[/SIZE]

There is a principle there that we have tried to ignore, and frankly, to our shame. Jesus Himself taught this principle in different words but it is the same principle.

You indictment of all Christianity that we have ignored this principle is hyperbole.

Brokenness, repentance, humility, hunger, faith..... these are what move our God and just as Israel (not the nation", but Israel "His people") was told the pathway back to Him, we too are told. Unfortunately, like stiffnecked Israel, we too are not listening, at least so far. Thank God this is fixing to change.

I don't disagree with this.

I weary of explanations theologians have as to why this or that disqualifies us from revival, or why His promises do not really mean what they clearly seem to tell us. We are Laodecia or her twin sister, and the counsel to them in Revelation 3 is the same advice God gives us today. Repent, admit our lukewarmness, cry out to Him for empowerment to walk the life God has called us to.

You "weary of explanations theologians have" and yet it is from those very theologians you disparage that we have the clear teaching of what the seven churches of Revelation 1-3 represent. It is essential we have solid teaching from biblical experts, men who dedicate themselves to intimate knowledge of God's word, so we don't go astray with false doctrine we make up out of our heads without the proper grounding to make a solid interpretation. For that reason, it is also essential that statements such as "this passage is for the church" when that clearly is not the case must be challenged.

It does not challenge the principle of prayer and repentance, which is universal to the Bible. But this nation, the US, is not in covenant with God and He is under no obligation to respond to corporate prayer pleading for this nation's survival. In fact, as hedrick pointed out, it quite clear that this nation won't survive until the Tribulation. There is no entity in biblical prophecy resembling the US. Giving false hope through misuse of the Bible is warned against throughout the venerable book.[/size]

 

[revrobor]

Sir,
If you do not fall into New Testament Christian group or one of it's subgroups, you are, at best a Deist and you are not a Deist! You, like the Atheist, argue against what the Holy Spirit teaches and you have yet to demonstrate the use or any familiarity of scripture. What you have demonstrated thus far is that you are full of arrogance and pride, both sins. You have slandered gideons300 with your baseless charges and you are refusing to converse without attacks... sin! You, like gideons399 and myself are full of sin but you run in here, not suppressing but rather reveling in your ability to be unreasonable and discuss your ideas.

That chip you are sporting on your shoulder is Satan and you need to calm down. pray, submit and study. Then, like one of God's people, reenter this conversation from the position of being led by the Spirit and not display all of the religkious pride you are djsplaying right now.

I don't know who died and made you judge Bill but apparently you choose to call people instruments of Satan if they don't agree with you. I have left nothing I have posted unexplained. Could it be you just don't like truth that doesn't match up with what you believe?

 

[gideons300]

That's not what you said earlier in this thread. when you said ... Had you given my post a solid reading, you would see that I stated that this passage carries within it the principle of prayer, confession, repentance, etc. But the contention by both Bill and yourself that it is a passage "for the church" simply isn't true.You indictment of all Christianity that we have ignored this principle is hyperbole.I don't disagree with this.You "weary of explanations theologians have" and yet it is from those very theologians you disparage that we have the clear teaching of what the seven churches of Revelation 1-3 represent. It is essential we have solid teaching from biblical experts, men who dedicate themselves to intimate knowledge of God's word, so we don't go astray with false doctrine we make up out of our heads without the proper grounding to make a solid interpretation. For that reason, it is also essential that statements such as "this passage is for the church" when that clearly is not the case must be challenged.

It does not challenge the principle of prayer and repentance, which is universal to the Bible. But this nation, the US, is not in covenant with God and He is under no obligation to respond to corporate prayer pleading for this nation's survival. In fact, as hedrick pointed out, it quite clear that this nation won't survive until the Tribulation. There is no entity in biblical prophecy resembling the US. Giving false hope through misuse of the Bible is warned against throughout the venerable book.[/size]

The theologians you describe are the ones who become theoligians because of their relationship to their Father, not as a substitute for it. Most of them are dead.

My point in adding to this post is simple and I am not trying to stir up trouble. I am trying to stir up God's children to believe in their God and that what we have all assumed was the full extent of the gospel's power, forgiveness, is simply the down payment as to what God promises to do in each of our lives, to set us free not just from the penalty foe our sins, but from its POWER.

I pray God blesses all of us with the eyes of our understanding being enlightened that we might know the hope of His calling and the exceeding greatness of His power to usward who believe.

For our information, God is able and willing to do more than forgive sins.... a lot more.

Blessings,

Gideon

 

[th1bill]

I don't know who died and made you judge Bill but apparently you choose to call people instruments of Satan if they don't agree with you. I have left nothing I have posted unexplained. Could it be you just don't like truth that doesn't match up with what you believe?

In no manor true! Read your own posts, you've expressed opinions... no scripture. I've spent the past 22+ years in daily study and yet I still rely only on God and the scriptures and you have come here blasting from the hip with arrogance.

 

[th1bill]

Oh, and the scripture for your judge statement is Matt. 7:1 and the problem with your usage is that this is out of context with the rest of the paragraph it's found in, the rest of the chapter and the context of the rest of the Sermon of the Mount.

 

[revrobor]

Oh, and the scripture for your judge statement is Matt. 7:1 and the problem with your usage is that this is out of context with the rest of the paragraph it's found in, the rest of the chapter and the context of the rest of the Sermon of the Mount.

If what I believe a scripture means differs from what you believe it is because I believe what God has taught me. I find most people who disagree with me have bought into what men have taught them.

 

[th1bill]

If what I believe a scripture means differs from what you believe it is because I believe what God has taught me. I find most people who disagree with me have bought into what men have taught them.

And the final court of arbitration is the scripture until the soon return of Jesus and not yourn or is it my. opinion and yet, here you are, parading your pride!