Reverance for the Altar and our King.

[porterross]

Lutheran Churches have only ONE altar in the Sanctuary. Side altars in Roman Catholic Churches are usually dedicated to saints, not the Lord. Also in High Anglican and RC Churches here in Canada the side altar has a tabernacle where the consecrated host is reserved for adoration. High Anglicans and RCs usually have a "Lady Chapel" dedicated the the BVM.

These usages are not in line with Scripture, and therefore are not in line with Lutheran Doctrine.

Just because a practice is RC, doesn't make it bad and I wasn't talking about multiple altars in the sanctuary. Who says we have to dedicate additional chapels with altars to anyone other than Christ and where in Scripture is it forbidden to have more than one place to pray or receive the Sacrament within the church building?

Why would any of us want to make it so difficult for ANYONE seeking an altar, for whatever personal motivation by the Holy Spirit, to be able to have access to one? Christian churches should be open and accessible more often than not on any given day and smaller chapels would make that more possible in contrast to opening the larger sanctuary.

As a random member of a Lutheran church, would you be able to go in, approach the altar and pray for hours at a time if you wished? How many members would feel comfortable doing so or would they feel like they were imposing, especially if the altar guild, pastor or a trustee needed access to the sanctuary in preparation for a worship service?

I already know the answer to these questions, but you get my point. Many, many times I longed to be able to spend time at the altar in the church, but it simply wasn't possible or encouraged. That's the times when someone was actually at the church, which isn't as often as it should be and there is simply no excuse for that.

 

[Melethiel]

Just because a practice is RC, doesn't make it bad and I wasn't talking about multiple altars in the sanctuary. Who says we have to dedicate additional chapels with altars to anyone other than Christ and where in Scripture is it forbidden to have more than one place to pray or receive the Sacrament within the church building?

Why would any of us want to make it so difficult for ANYONE seeking an altar, for whatever personal motivation by the Holy Spirit, to be able to have access to one? Christian churches should be open and accessible more often than not on any given day and smaller chapels would make that more possible in contrast to opening the larger sanctuary.

As a random member of a Lutheran church, would you be able to go in, approach the altar and pray for hours at a time if you wished? How many members would feel comfortable doing so or would they feel like they were imposing, especially if the altar guild, pastor or a trustee needed access to the sanctuary in preparation for a worship service?

I already know the answer to these questions, but you get my point. Many, many times I longed to be able to spend time at the altar in the church, but it simply wasn't possible or encouraged. That's the times when someone was actually at the church, which isn't as often as it should be and there is simply no excuse for that.

One thing I really liked about Catholic/Orthodox churches in Europe is that they're open nearly all the time for people who wish to come in and pray. Compared to American churches, which are nearly always locked...

 

[porterross]

One thing I really liked about Catholic/Orthodox churches in Europe is that they're open nearly all the time for people who wish to come in and pray. Compared to American churches, which are nearly always locked...

Exactly, just like the CoE churches. It's easy to get spoiled very quickly when communion is offered every morning right around the corner and any time of the day you wander into the church, there are various activities taking place. It's as it should be.

 

[TCat]

I have only ever been a member of one LCMS church so I am unfamiliar with the lay out. Do most churches not have a small chapel for prayer? I know that nearly all the churches my father pastored had a sanctuary and a chapel and we have both at my church now.

As for it being unlocked all the time, well no, it is open during church office hours and most evenings when there is activity on campus (which is nearly every night).

 

[RadMan]

Just because a practice is RC, doesn't make it bad and I wasn't talking about multiple altars in the sanctuary. Who says we have to dedicate additional chapels with altars to anyone other than Christ and where in Scripture is it forbidden to have more than one place to pray or receive the Sacrament within the church building?

Why would any of us want to make it so difficult for ANYONE seeking an altar, for whatever personal motivation by the Holy Spirit, to be able to have access to one? Christian churches should be open and accessible more often than not on any given day and smaller chapels would make that more possible in contrast to opening the larger sanctuary.

As a random member of a Lutheran church, would you be able to go in, approach the altar and pray for hours at a time if you wished? How many members would feel comfortable doing so or would they feel like they were imposing, especially if the altar guild, pastor or a trustee needed access to the sanctuary in preparation for a worship service?

I already know the answer to these questions, but you get my point. Many, many times I longed to be able to spend time at the altar in the church, but it simply wasn't possible or encouraged. That's the times when someone was actually at the church, which isn't as often as it should be and there is simply no excuse for that.

I'm just curious as to your "longing", as you say, to want to go to a church and pray. The only reason that I could perceive is to eliminate all outside interference or do you consider it conducive to meditation? . Otherwise it could be done at home in private. Like the scriptures says.....praying in a closet..........

 

[DaRev]

Lutheran Churches have only ONE altar in the Sanctuary. Side altars in Roman Catholic Churches are usually dedicated to saints, not the Lord. Also in High Anglican and RC Churches here in Canada the side altar has a tabernacle where the consecrated host is reserved for adoration. High Anglicans and RCs usually have a "Lady Chapel" dedicated the the BVM.

These usages are not in line with Scripture, and therefore are not in line with Lutheran Doctrine.

I'm curious where you see in Scripture that a church can only have one altar area or cannot have a chaplet. I'm not familiar with such passages.

And she wasn't referring to side altars, but rather a small area seperated from the main sanctuary/nave that is available for prayer and meditation, such as the small chapels in hospitals. Many churches have such areas that are accessible. A number of Lutheran churches that I've seen do have small chapel areas that are not only available for private prayer and meditation, but are also used for midweek worship.

 

[RadMan]

I'm curious where you see in Scripture that a church can only have one altar area or cannot have a chaplet. I'm not familiar with such passages.

And she wasn't referring to side altars, but rather a small area seperated from the main sanctuary/nave that is available for prayer and meditation, such as the small chapels in hospitals. Many churches have such areas that are accessible. A number of Lutheran churches that I've seen do have small chapel areas that are not only available for private prayer and meditation, but are also used for midweek worship.

I'm curious as to where it says we even need an altar. In the OT altars were for making "sacrifices". Don't think we do that anymore unless a person belongs to an RCC or EO were their Mass is a sacrifice.

 

[DaRev]

I'm curious as to where it says we even need an altar. In the OT altars were for making "sacrifices". Don't think we do that anymore unless a person belongs to an RCC or EO were their Mass is a sacrifice.

The altar is the place where God presents the sacrifice of Christ's body and blood for us. The use of the altar has changed from a sacrificial place to a sacramental place. This is why it is the central focus in Lutheran churches, as per our doctrine and practice.

 

[RadMan]

Well I understand that but the "altar" doesn't seem to hold a physical presence as much as we give it. More of a sacrament place than a showpiece.

BOC--Apology
Article XXIV Of the Mass

50] And if we must speak of the outward appearance, attendance upon church is better among us than
among the adversaries. For the audiences are held by useful and clear sermons. But neither the people
nor the teachers have ever understood the doctrine of the adversaries. [There is nothing that so attaches
people to the church as good preaching. But our adversaries preach their people out of the churches; for
they teach nothing of the necessary parts of Christian doctrine; they narrate the legends of saints and
other fables.] And 51] the true adornment of the churches is godly, useful, and clear doctrine, the devout
use of the Sacraments, ardent prayer, and the like. Candles, golden vessels [tapers, altar-cloths, images),
and similar adornments are becoming, but they are not the adornment that properly belongs to the
Church. But if the adversaries make worship consist in such matters, and not in the preaching of the
Gospel, in faith, and the conflicts of faith, they are to be numbered among those whom Daniel describes
as worshiping their God with gold and silver, Dan. 11, 38.

That still doesn't explain why people are driven to pray in churches. They don't need an altar to focus.

 

[Studeclunker]

Gentlemen, if you will forgive us, the weaker bretheran who require a quieter, more focused enviornment for prayer. Also, some of us don't have a quiet place in our homes. Either it's shared with others or, in the case of many apartments, quiet is a luxury that isn't available. A chaplet provides an enviornment that encourages focus on our Lord and the quiet to keep that focus. I don't know about anybody on this forum, but I've lived in a number of places where prayer is difficult because of distraction. Be it noise from the street, neighbors (above, below, beside...), and /or interruption from family and roomates. A chaplet at the local church would be a, dare I say it, Godsend.

Most churches in the United States are locked for good reason. The incidence of vandalism increased to such an extent in the sixties that it became essential. I've seen several church sanctuaies reduced to wreckage because of this. In some of the larger cities, one can only gain access to the Church Office during the week. I know of one in Garden Grove (So. Cal.) where one has to push a button and speak with the secretary through a speaker and then be allowed in with an electric lock operated from her desk. Our cities have become dangerous places. Even for the chosen.

 

[porterross]

I'm just curious as to your "longing", as you say, to want to go to a church and pray. The only reason that I could perceive is to eliminate all outside interference or do you consider it conducive to meditation? . Otherwise it could be done at home in private. Like the scriptures says.....praying in a closet..........

It's very much a personal thing and as I have a gazillion questions, the idea of having a learned man nearby to answer them would be nice. Besides, if you saw how many shoes I had, you'd realize my closet is out of the question.

 

[RadMan]

Gentlemen, if you will forgive us, the weaker bretheran who require a quieter, more focused enviornment for prayer. Also, some of us don't have a quiet place in our homes. Either it's shared with others or, in the case of many apartments, quiet is a luxury that isn't available. A chaplet provides an enviornment that encourages focus on our Lord and the quiet to keep that focus. I don't know about anybody on this forum, but I've lived in a number of places where prayer is difficult because of distraction. Be it noise from the street, neighbors (above, below, beside...), and /or interruption from family and roomates. A chaplet at the local church would be a, dare I say it, Godsend.

Most churches in the United States are locked for good reason. The incidence of vandalism increased to such an extent in the sixties that it became essential. I've seen several church sanctuaies reduced to wreckage because of this. In some of the larger cities, one can only gain access to the Church Office during the week. I know of one in Garden Grove (So. Cal.) where one has to push a button and speak with the secretary through a speaker and then be allowed in with an electric lock operated from her desk. Our cities have become dangerous places. Even for the chosen.

You could start a chain of "sanctuaries". Buy up all the closed churches and charge admission. Then sell what ever a person wants like holy water or rosaries and a confessional. Put in foot rugs for muslims and finger bowls. Put in a statue of Maronie for some of the Utah friends. Make it a non denom sanctuary for everyone. It's the latest fashion.

 

[WildStrawberry]

I'm just curious as to your "longing", as you say, to want to go to a church and pray. The only reason that I could perceive is to eliminate all outside interference or do you consider it conducive to meditation? . Otherwise it could be done at home in private. Like the scriptures says.....praying in a closet..........

Sometimes, just sitting in the sanctuary, breathing in the beauty of the place, is just comforting. Being able to sit in a place of worship and let God speak to you in the utter stillness of the place...it's a feeling like no other.

That doesn't mean that you can't find that sort of beauty in your closet (unless you're Porter and have too many shoes) or sitting in the middle of a woods with a burbling creek nearby. (another of my favorite prayer spots) or even just laying in bed at night.

But there's something...more...when you're sitting in a quiet Sanctuary. I don't know how to explain it. I just know I enjoy it and I try to make it into Church early so I'm the only one there for a short time to gather my thoughts and focus on the worship I'm about to partake in. I wish that I could spend quiet nights just sitting in the Sanctuary...letting my mind and outside cares slip away. It's harder to do that when you're at home with the many distractions.

You could start a chain of "sanctuaries". Buy up all the closed churches and charge admission. Then sell what ever a person wants like holy water or rosaries and a confessional. Put in foot rugs for muslims and finger bowls. Put in a statue of Maronie for some of the Utah friends. Make it a non denom sanctuary for everyone. It's the latest fashion.

Now honestly. Was this needed? *hands on hips shaking finger at you* Stude was just saying that, for him and for others who don't have the luxury of acres of land between them and their nearest neighbor (ahem), it would be very nice to have a quiet chapel to go to without threat of being harmed or the chapel itself being defaced, defiled, destroyed.

Kae

 

[ctay]

I'm with Kae, I rather be in church when no one is there and pray, Had a lot of prayers answered that way plus going camping and being out in the woods with no one on any of the trails and sit down and pray. Its hard to do at home with everyone home, as soon as I think I get some peace at home someone starts hollering for me.

 

[porterross]

It's harder to do that when you're at home with the many distractions.

That's the kicker right there, especially for women. When I need to focus solely on Christ, I want to get away from all those distractions, especially if the house isn't perfectly clean or there are kids going in and out, phones ringing, etc.

Not all of us live alone or find it easy to have people accept that we aren't accessible if we're physically present. Jesus went off to be alone to pray, so this drive to be alone with Him makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Zecryphon]

My former church used to have and still does have a prayer garden. This was a little corner of the church property/campus that had a desert-landscape, three crosses and benches throughout. On the crosses were many nails so you could post prayer requests for the people coming to the garden. I went there frequently when I was a member of that church and it was surprisingly quiet, given that it was located pretty close to a major road in Scottsdale, AZ.

I really don't see the problem with going to a church chapel or sanctuary to pray. Maybe it's just how I was raised as a child, but I've always felt closer to God while in church. It's similar to how I felt when I walked into the Vatican in 1985. There was this feeling of holiness that just came over me. I still can't really describe it to this day. So I completely understand people that wish to go to a chapel and pray.

 

[dinkime]

if your church is locked, and you would like to be in there to pray, ect, ask the pastor about a key! we have a lot of keys to our church with members (our house has 2) and i can go to the church for whatever reason when i would like...if Pastor is not there, i have phone numbers & an email address if i need to get ahold of him

 

[LilLamb219]

The great thing about the church is that is purposely tries to keep out the outside world of things...stained glass windows, symbols of Christ throughout...etc... It's very beneficial for people, helping them focus when the world is calling. Some times people just need that and it's not a bad thing.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I'm curious where you see in Scripture that a church can only have one altar area or cannot have a chaplet. I'm not familiar with such passages.

And she wasn't referring to side altars, but rather a small area seperated from the main sanctuary/nave that is available for prayer and meditation, such as the small chapels in hospitals. Many churches have such areas that are accessible. A number of Lutheran churches that I've seen do have small chapel areas that are not only available for private prayer and meditation, but are also used for midweek worship.

Sorryhttp://www3.christianforums.com/images/smilies/oops.gif I misunderstood. Only one altar in the sanctuary, but the Church I now attend has an altar in the Sunday school room downstairs as well. The Church I grew up in also has a large altar in the in the main Sunday school room, and also a small altar in each of the two class rooms. The one in the kindergarten room is only two feet tall, complete with a brass cross, and two candle sticks. When the Church is locked, none are accessible without a key. As others have answered, to get a key at our Churches, all you need to do is be a member and ask the Pastor or one of the trustees. Mark

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Well I understand that but the "altar" doesn't seem to hold a physical presence as much as we give it. More of a sacrament place than a showpiece.

BOC--Apology
Article XXIV Of the Mass

50] And if we must speak of the outward appearance, attendance upon church is better among us than
among the adversaries. For the audiences are held by useful and clear sermons. But neither the people
nor the teachers have ever understood the doctrine of the adversaries. [There is nothing that so attaches
people to the church as good preaching. But our adversaries preach their people out of the churches; for
they teach nothing of the necessary parts of Christian doctrine; they narrate the legends of saints and
other fables.] And 51] the true adornment of the churches is godly, useful, and clear doctrine, the devout
use of the Sacraments, ardent prayer, and the like. Candles, golden vessels [tapers, altar-cloths, images),
and similar adornments are becoming, but they are not the adornment that properly belongs to the
Church. But if the adversaries make worship consist in such matters, and not in the preaching of the
Gospel, in faith, and the conflicts of faith, they are to be numbered among those whom Daniel describes
as worshiping their God with gold and silver, Dan. 11, 38.

That still doesn't explain why people are driven to pray in churches. They don't need an altar to focus.

We don't need all that stuff, but if it helps us focus, why not? When I pray at home, I often look at a Crucifix we have on the wall. It keeps me on track as to why I pray, and to whom.