Reverance for the Altar and our King.

[Studeclunker]

You know, sometimes I think the Roman Catholics have at least something right. You never see them take the altar or Communion lightly. When the Cross is carried into their midst they treat it with the greatest reverance and respect. Now, I know they go way too far... still...

Take the congregation I'm currently attending with. They approach the altar with little reverance or care. Chatting away in line then toddling up the steps without acknowledging the altar they (at least) kneel at the rail for communion. Then when leaving they just turn their backs and trot away without another thought. They toss the disposable cups (shudder) into the trash recepticals and off they go. Many people even leave at that point.

Let's take the regent of England, Elizabeth Rex. When she enters the room, the occupants give her the greatest of respect. They bow, kneel, curtsey, etc... Should we, the subjects of Christ not do the same for him? I would think his presence in and under the wine and bread would equate to some kind of respect for the altar and it's furniture. The staff with a cross on it (I forget what it's called) is carried out into the midst of the congregation (where I attend) when the Gospel lesson is read. No one acknowledges it. Does'nt this staff and cross represent the presence of Christ? Should'nt we give the effigy of our King just a little respect?

Then again, am I getting stressed out on the little things again?

 

[seajoy]

I agree about the chatting in line. That's just awful.....but what does one do with the little cups, but put them in a container? I do set mine down gently, I've never thrown it down.

I guess I just wonder what the very first Lord's Supper was like. How formal was it? We have to watch that it doesn't turn into a show....but humility is a must...afterall, we are there because we are sinners. We are taking the Lord's body and blood, and He is our King of Kings.

I understand how your church bothers you so in this area. I'm sure you have talked to your Pastor. Perhaps another chat with him would be a good idea. Maybe he doesn't notice what is going on around him during the service.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

You know, sometimes I think the Roman Catholics have at least something right. You never see them take the altar or Communion lightly. When the Cross is carried into their midst they treat it with the greatest reverance and respect. Now, I know they go way too far... still...

Take the congregation I'm currently attending with. They approach the altar with little reverance or care. Chatting away in line then toddling up the steps without acknowledging the altar they (at least) kneel at the rail for communion. Then when leaving they just turn their backs and trot away without another thought. They toss the disposable cups (shudder) into the trash recepticals and off they go. Many people even leave at that point.

Let's take the regent of England, Elizabeth Rex. When she enters the room, the occupants give her the greatest of respect. They bow, kneel, curtsey, etc... Should we, the subjects of Christ not do the same for him? I would think his presence in and under the wine and bread would equate to some kind of respect for the altar and it's furniture. The staff with a cross on it (I forget what it's called) is carried out into the midst of the congregation (where I attend) when the Gospel lesson is read. No one acknowledges it. Does'nt this staff and cross represent the presence of Christ? Should'nt we give the effigy of our King just a little respect?

Then again, am I getting stressed out on the little things again?

I agree.

In our congregation, everyone reverences the altar. When any of us enter the chancel to do anything, we bow at the entrance of the chancel, and when we approach the altar we bow at the altar. Our communion is ushered, and is solemn and reverent.

The altar is not holy in and of itself, but what it represents is.

Mark

 

[RadMan]

I agree.

In our congregation, everyone reverences the altar. When any of us enter the chancel to do anything, we bow at the entrance of the chancel, and when we approach the altar we bow at the altar. Our communion is ushered, and is solemn and reverent.

The altar is not holy in and of itself, but what it represents is.

Mark

Therein lies the problem. Then it starts being icon worship and not just a symbol. God does not live in the altar or the cross. God's presence is with us when two or three are gathered together. That could be anyplace. Church, meeting hall home, etc.

If a practice like that continues in a church then the average laymen will think that the altar is a Holy Sanctuary like the RCC and EO.

The reason for reverence when coming into the service is to reflect on our sins and the service that we are going to attend and/or the Lord's Supper.

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[TCat]

Interesting post...I mostly attend contemporary service at my church which is in the gym but I like taking communion in the traditional worship a few times a year because of the solemn nature and the quiet reflection time as we comptemplate and repent.

In contemporary service although it is still a solemn time of reflection and most everyone is reverent and quiet there is no altar to kneel at, I do miss that one thing from traditional worship.

I might suggest that the pastor and elders do some training and education of the congregation to remind them of the importance of what they are recieveing in communion and how it is to be approached.

Even in my large church with mutiple services going on at the same time in various venues there is quiet reflection and respect when taking communion. Rarely does one see people talking in line, or tossing the communion cups. It is to serious a time for frivolity and the children need to be educated from the beginning, it all starts at the leadership level.

 

[DaRev]

You know, sometimes I think the Roman Catholics have at least something right. You never see them take the altar or Communion lightly. When the Cross is carried into their midst they treat it with the greatest reverance and respect. Now, I know they go way too far... still...

Take the congregation I'm currently attending with. They approach the altar with little reverance or care. Chatting away in line then toddling up the steps without acknowledging the altar they (at least) kneel at the rail for communion. Then when leaving they just turn their backs and trot away without another thought. They toss the disposable cups (shudder) into the trash recepticals and off they go. Many people even leave at that point.

Let's take the regent of England, Elizabeth Rex. When she enters the room, the occupants give her the greatest of respect. They bow, kneel, curtsey, etc... Should we, the subjects of Christ not do the same for him? I would think his presence in and under the wine and bread would equate to some kind of respect for the altar and it's furniture. The staff with a cross on it (I forget what it's called) is carried out into the midst of the congregation (where I attend) when the Gospel lesson is read. No one acknowledges it. Does'nt this staff and cross represent the presence of Christ? Should'nt we give the effigy of our King just a little respect?

Then again, am I getting stressed out on the little things again?

Preach it, brother!!

During the Divine Service, the altar is the presence of God in that place for that time. It is where he gives to us His gifts of the Means of Grace, where He gives to us the very body and blood of His Son, Jesus Christ. While we don't "worship" the altar or the cross, they do indicate the presence of God in the sanctuary. Anytime I am in the sanctuary, even when alone, I always give recognition to the cross on the altar with a slight bow. I teach our confirmands the same thing.

We also had the problem of people throwing the disposable shot glasses in the garbage. While my offer to purchase glass ones was vehemently rejected, I was at least able to convince them that the plastic ones should be rinsed before they are thrown out and the rinse water disposed of on the ground. (The piscina in our sacristy is unfortunately plumbed into the sewer.)

During a processional when the crucifer (the cross on the pole) is carried into the sanctuary, the people should turn and face it as it passes them by. Some do that, others don't.

It's all attributed to the infiltration of evangelical Reformed protestantism that has infiltrated the Lutheran Church.

 

[TCat]

I am pretty certain that the plastic cups used in our services are tossed out after communion but we do have baskets to place them in as we leave the altar. Perhaps someone might approach the altar guilde "shudder" and suggest the implamentation of such.

When I first began at my church I was not fond of the baskets used to recieve the cups post communion in the gym. They were little wicker things and were placed on stools. It just looked ugly, and as we had just partaken of the body and blood of christ I hated the thought that once we recieved that was it, toss it.

I suggested something more attractive and was ignored, so I went out, bought a few red cloth napkins, placed them in the closet with a note indicating what they were for and just put the whole thing out of my mind. The next Sunday I was happy to see the napkins in the baskets and a few weeks later someone else added nice linen drape for the stools. It is a small thing and of no consequence but still...

I do like that many people in my church bow to the cross post communion, I hope the pastor is continuing to teach that.

 

[dinkime]

to eliminate the "tossing of the plastic cups" our church has a (hidden) rail on the back of the communion railing -- it is wood & has holes just the right size to hold the individual cups (what most people opt for in my church since we are given the choice of individual or common)...no one can see the empty cups at the altar, but they are in one spot for proper disposal

 

[Melethiel]

Of course, the easy solution is to *gasp* use a common cup.

 

[TCat]

No thanks

 

[Zecryphon]

to eliminate the "tossing of the plastic cups" our church has a (hidden) rail on the back of the communion railing -- it is wood & has holes just the right size to hold the individual cups (what most people opt for in my church since we are given the choice of individual or common)...no one can see the empty cups at the altar, but they are in one spot for proper disposal

I have a couple of questions. When someone places their cup in this hidden rail after receiving the Sacrament, what does the next person who receives the Sacrament then do with their cup? Do they place it on top of the cup that's already there? Or are the cups removed after each wave of people have received Communion?

 

[LutheranChick]

Our communion service is quiet and respectful. We don't have a waiting line, the ushers indicate who goes up for each 'table' and the rest of the congregation sits quietly in reflection. We don't have a kneeler at the altar, everyone just stands in a row up front. Our pastor collects the cups back in the tray that the cups are served from, although, our new Vicar wasn't aware that we did that. The first time he did a communion service he did not collect the cups- boy talk about confused people! Everyone went back to their seat with their little cup, wondering what to do with it. We are SUCH creatures of habit...

 

[Studeclunker]

No, I don't like the common cup either. Rinsing out the disposable cups kind of defeats their purpose. Still, the contents is supposed to have the blood of Christ inbued in it somehow. It seems almost slightly sacrilegious to just toss them in the trash. Yes, yes, I know, "how R.C. of you, Ron," you might say. Still, if we do believe differently than the Reformed, Baptist, etc ad nauseum, then shouldn't we treat these wee lil' cups with just a bit more respect?

As to the Altar. Yes, in and of itself, it's just a fancy table with pretty decorations. Still, these pretty items are effigys of our Lord. Also, in the elements is the presence of our Lord. If our Lord is present in this manner, almost physically, shouldn't there be some appropriate respect at least paid to such?

 

[porterross]

Therein lies the problem. Then it starts being icon worship and not just a symbol. God does not live in the altar or the cross. God's presence is with us when two or three are gathered together. That could be anyplace. Church, meeting hall home, etc.

If a practice like that continues in a church then the average laymen will think that the altar is a Holy Sanctuary like the RCC and EO.

The reason for reverence when coming into the service is to reflect on our sins and the service that we are going to attend and/or the Lord's Supper.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Bowing at the altar before and after receiving communion is showing due reverence for the presence of the body and blood of our Savior. At least that's why I do it. In reality, I long for the opportunity to receive the sacrament and then spend some time flat on my face in humility and praise for all He's done for me.

This is why I appreciate the idea of multiple chapels/altars within a church and I have made use of them in CoE churches. They are open to the public most of the day, even when the choir is being used for something else.

Why did this type of church plan not continue in the US? The idea of being able to stop by the church any time of the day to kneel in prayer at an altar in a more intimate area, with a collared one nearby if necessary, is very appealing.

 

[Melethiel]

Bowing at the altar before and after receiving communion is showing due reverence for the presence of the body and blood of our Savior. At least that's why I do it. In reality, I long for the opportunity to receive the sacrament and then spend some time flat on my face in humility and praise for all He's done for me.

This is why I appreciate the idea of multiple chapels/altars within a church and I have made use of them in CoE churches. They are open to the public most of the day, even when the choir is being used for something else.

Why did this type of church plan not continue in the US? The idea of being able to stop by the church any time of the day to kneel in prayer at an altar in a more intimate area, with a collared one nearby if necessary, is very appealing.

I suppose it was "too Catholic" at a time in US history when anti-Catholicism was rampant...(just speculating here). Many of the Catholic churches I've been in (even in the US), especially the ones with historical significance, have an adjacent chapel/altar.

 

[porterross]

I'm sure you're right, Mel, and economics probably had a bit to do with it, too, as churches went up as settlers spread across the country. It's a real shame, though.

BTW, it's good to see you in the conservative area. Welcome.

 

[WildStrawberry]

<snip> Our pastor collects the cups back in the tray that the cups are served from<snip>

This is what's done in my church as well. Except, we have an Elder collect the cups after Pastor comes 'round with the common cup (my preferred method) We have an empty tray just for this purpose. In fact, before we had a common cup, as an acolyte, I would be the one collecting the cups...trailing after Pastor who was distributing the Blood. (we were a bit backwards in those days. These days, Pastor distributes the Body, as is appropriate, with the Elder following with the Blood.)

I don't bow at the Altar when I go up, I genuflect and then kneel. After communion, I'll bow and cross myself. I'd genuflect again but I'm having trouble with my knees now and...well...they're not working so well anymore.

Kae

 

[dinkime]

I have a couple of questions. When someone places their cup in this hidden rail after receiving the Sacrament, what does the next person who receives the Sacrament then do with their cup? Do they place it on top of the cup that's already there? Or are the cups removed after each wave of people have received Communion?

it holds quite a few cups -- more than we have people who take communion a week -- it is at the "kneeler"/alter railing and goes around the entire altar, so it is a good size and holds all we need

 

[DaRev]

Of course, the easy solution is to *gasp* use a common cup.

Preach it, sister!!!

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Bowing at the altar before and after receiving communion is showing due reverence for the presence of the body and blood of our Savior. At least that's why I do it. In reality, I long for the opportunity to receive the sacrament and then spend some time flat on my face in humility and praise for all He's done for me.

This is why I appreciate the idea of multiple chapels/altars within a church and I have made use of them in CoE churches. They are open to the public most of the day, even when the choir is being used for something else.

Why did this type of church plan not continue in the US? The idea of being able to stop by the church any time of the day to kneel in prayer at an altar in a more intimate area, with a collared one nearby if necessary, is very appealing.

Lutheran Churches have only ONE altar in the Sanctuary. Side altars in Roman Catholic Churches are usually dedicated to saints, not the Lord. Also in High Anglican and RC Churches here in Canada the side altar has a tabernacle where the consecrated host is reserved for adoration. High Anglicans and RCs usually have a "Lady Chapel" dedicated the the BVM.

These usages are not in line with Scripture, and therefore are not in line with Lutheran Doctrine.