Revelation is in Code

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

Everyone knows Revelation is deep code, but if you talk to many self-styled prophecy experts, they will make claims otherwise -- though, by their own explanations, they show they agree. This is where they believe they have value, by deciphering that code for you.

It just so happens that their often very complicated decipherings - which are mainstream, usually - end up teaching a message that is from the eternal darkness, the Abyss, and not from the eternal light, God.

Jesus spoke of this, 'they are ever hearing, ever seeing, but never perceiving'.

God spoke of this to Moses, in a response to Aaron and Miriam's challenge of Moses, saying,

Numbers 12

'6 he said, “Listen to my words:

“When there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, reveal myself to them in visions,
I speak to them in dreams.
7 But this is not true of my servant Moses;
he is faithful in all my house.
8 With him I speak face to face,
clearly and not in riddles;
he sees the form of the Lord.
Why then were you not afraid
to speak against my servant Moses?”'

Indeed, it is true, God spoke in riddle to the Prophets, and in all prophecy.

Someone can argue that the Apostles did not speak this way, but in regards to end times prophecy, this is certainly true. They spoke of mysteries, and they spoke in terms of riddles. Jesus, himself stated, as to the 'last hour', that 'only the Father, who is in Heaven, knows'.

However, this does not mean it would always be this way, as it is Jesus who gives us Revelation. Part of the mystery there is Jesus points out that 'I sat on my father's throne', when he divulges that he is the one given John Revelation, through his angel.

Indeed, as I already pointed out, though Jesus 'always spoke to the people in parable' - which is certainly synonymous with 'code' or 'riddle' - he did speak to be heard by the elect. So, how did the apostles hear his teachings? How do the elect decipher what Jesus teaches? But, through the Spirit, the Spirit of the Son and of the Father, who 'teaches us all things'.

John pointed out, 'you do not need a teacher, for the Spirit will teach you all things'.

These things said, to end times prophecy, specifically, especially in regards to the very difficult code of Revelation...

If you perform much research here, in terms of looking at popular interpretations, you can easily be waylaid by the vast confusion - the 'muddying of waters' - put on it through the centuries. In fact, people would argue that there is only two ways to look at these matters: an "idealist" or "allegorical" way, or the literal way. Even though, with Revelation, especially, there is no literal way, and you will never meet anyone who espouses interpretations of it in an absolute literal way. Again, as I stated above, they may claim this, when it is convenient for them -- but, the very fact that they are offering interpretations shows that they believe there is something to interpret.

Approaching Revelation as code, is, in fact, the best literal way to approach it.

A good example of this is how the Catholic Church and other figureheads of the 'religious establishment' argue that they reign already with Christ. They do this primarily through the teachings of Augustine's 'City of God'. Augustine posited that Christians could say they are already in the Millennium, and so are already reigning with Christ, on earth.

Augustine also put forth that Constantine was the rider on the white horse.

Both of these teachings even the Catholic Church does not put enough stock into to include in their official teachings, as espoused by the "catechism", but it is, still, their official stance. And so in their official teachings, but simply not directly. This is only because it is such an indefensible position to take.

The literal reading of that passage, Revelation 20, is obvious. It depicts not only the return of Jesus, with the Angels, but also the killing of all flesh on earth. It depicts this as happening after Babylon is destroyed by the Beast, and after the Beast and False Prophet are captured and thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Right after all flesh on earth is not only killed, but 'gorged upon by the birds', then it is depicted that those who 'did not receive the mark of the beast on their hand or forehead', those 'beheaded by the Beast', are resurrected from the dead, and 'reign with Christ for a thousand years'.

Obviously, these things have not happened, yet.

Taking those matters as code, or some manner of figurative speech, is certainly a daunting task, but so is it with much of Revelation.

It is important here to remember that even the elect can have hard spirits. And this is well demonstrated by Jesus, when, after the feeding of the masses, Jesus found the apostles arguing among themselves about 'bread'. Jesus had warned against the 'bread of the Pharisees', and the Apostles were taking this to mean literal bread of the Pharisees. He pointed out to them that their hearts were hard, dull, that he obviously was not arguing about literal bread, asking them the rhetorical question about how he had just shown them they do not need to worry about literal food, at all -- he had just fed the masses by miracle, calling forth food from 'as if' 'thin air'.

In the end times, which it has been since Jesus taught, and certainly is very much so, right now, people are very interested in the meanings behind the code of Revelation. But, there is also a dire warning given there, at the end of the book. Not to add anything to it, nor to take anything away from it.

For those who put all the curses of Scripture on other people, this is the path they will take. The 'blind leading the blind, into a pit'. 'Pride comes before a fall'. And you can certainly know Revelation was designed with them in mind.

The pride God has allowed to fester on earth, is staggeringly high. It is compared to the Tower of Babel, by the depiction of the Christian religious establishment as "Babylon", pointing out that the 'adulteries' of 'Babylon' have mad the world drunk on the maddening wine of the blood of the witnesses.

You can certainly observe this pride in full force, today. You have the Catholic Church spinning its' wheels to try and avoid a major crisis which is in play, one which has implicated even the Pope, already, in multiple instances. Where a church is covering up, systematically, and across centuries, sex crimes against children -- even to the point of systematically placing these sex criminals back into not only the church, but continued access to their victims. Further, they have been caught doing this not only once or twice, but already tens of thousands of times. And, they had previously sworn they would not do this again, after the disclosures during the turn of the millennium.

Yet, somehow, the basic understanding that this "Babylon" spoken of is not the 'Christian religious establishment' fails to hit with many. Just as they fail to perceive that the dead in Christ have not resurrected, and they are certainly not reigning already with Christ 'for a thousand years'.

Likewise, 'the Beast', of Revelation, is often depicted as 'one person'. What one person has ten kingdoms on their head, or seven heads, for that matter?

Just because you have come to consider these interpretations as true, even having held that possibility as open for a long time, does not mean you are not elect. For we see the call in even Revelation, to the elect, crying, "Come out of Babylon, so you do not share in her punishment for her sins".

Do not think "Babylon" is only the "Catholic Church", either. It is the 'Christian religious establishment'. I just finished reading a paper last night in a Catholic paper that argued they were concerned about heavy Catholic investment in Trump, arguing that he was going to fall, and this would cause a lot of problems for Catholics. That is, Catholics who had invested heavily in Trump. Seeing him as their leader.

All across Revelation, there are obtuse riddles put forth, very often these are put forth in terms people have a very difficult time fathoming as riddles at all. We all know this.

The 'two witnesses' are a good example of this. Many rest on their readings of Revelation, trusting in the 'false prophets', who like most of the "Christian" 'false prophets' of today were mere interpreters of prophecy, not claiming God actually spoke to them.

This was said of Jesus, that he spoke with authority, unlike the Pharisees.

And, today, we have to be wary of the bread of the modern Pharisees. The "Christian" religious establishment. An establishment such as the world is established. Where the strong and the cunning push their way through intrigue to the top of the heap. In the world.

Where Satan shows them favor, placing them in positions of wealth and power. Both in the State, and in the Christian religious establishment that is of the world. (Reader take note here, I am speaking of the false Christianity that is of the world, not the true Christianity that is not of this world. As for this distinction, even they, themselves, ultimately view themselves as being 'of the world'. This is part of the curse of equating the reigning of Christ with the reigning of Satan. The curse of equating the world, with the Kingdom of God. Love of the world, with love of God.)

On 'the two witnesses', they believe they would be aware of this, if anything else is such matters they may not be aware of it. How could it happen without the whole world knowing who they are, is their reasoning.

But, they could and do, to some degree, say this with the rest of Revelation.

However, is that fire which comes from their mouth literal? Is the water turned to literal blood, as Moses turned the waters to literal blood? Is their death seen by the entire population of the world? Their resurrection, too? This is a misreading, which they believe is a correct reading. Though, the whole world does see the two witnesses.

(And am I saying the two witnesses have not already come? I do believe they have already come, but will not argue that point, here. But, I point this out merely to point out how I worded this, to fit with those who see this as a future event. The way in which I stated this does not mean that I am literally saying they are yet to be.)

How does the 'sky roll up like a scroll'? This, too, comes well before the two witnesses, and many other major events in Revelation? This would certainly be something the whole world would witness. And, we have, haven't we. We have a closed book on the sky, or the heavens, don't we? We have landed men on the moon, and have a vast view of the Heavens. We no longer see the sun as revolving around the earth, and countless other mysteries about the Heavens have been solved.

These things really started, and happened, long ago.

Likewise, we have already seen horrible plagues which have decimated the earth, again and again. Not only literal plagues, such as the black death, but also spiritual plagues, such as the vast tower of false teachings which rise above the earth as the tower of babel did.

In terms of the water turning to blood, Babylon sits on the waters, and is drunk with the blood of the witnesses, or martyrs. ("Martyr" is Greek for "Witness".)

When Moses turned the waters into blood, the false prophets, Jannes and Jambres, were able to repeat this plague. Adding to its' devastation.

(It should not be thought that what Jannes and Jambres did was anything more then magic tricks, however. I only illustrate this for purpose of answering the argument that a confused person might make, that I am stating 'Babylon' turns water into blood. 'Babylon's blood wine should be considered more like the modern concept of 'blood money'.)

There is much within Revelation people need to be asking the Lord on 'what does it mean'. The Spirit is within and 'leads into all truth'. But, one has to be open to hearing the truth, even though the Spirit of Truth does repeat, consistently, truth to you, in your heart.

Indeed, it is these very things I exhort believers to pay attention to: those things which have been often repeated to you, in your very heart. Often, over many years. Things which you should finally pay attention to.

The difficulty of the Spirit getting your attention on such matters as end times prophecy is that the world says very different things, in many different ways. And, it is daunting to shove all of that aside, judging your fellow Christians as being in the wrong, or possibly so.

We are asked to respect the authority of soldiers and police, as being authority of God. Likewise, should we truly question anyone placed into power in the world, even if they are of the 'Christian religious establishment'? But, we are certainly told we should not refrain from judging our own - or those who claim to be our own - while we are told we should not bother judging those of the world. ('As for those in the world, let God judge them', Paul. A plain and obvious exhortation, which is very clearly ignored by those who equate 'the world' with 'the Kingdom of God'.)

Regardless, there are many such things in Revelation which need to be discerned by Christians. Including the identity, or general substance of 'the Beast', so they are not fooled. This does include such matters as, 'what does it mean you can not buy or sell', and 'what does it mean to be beheaded by the beast'.

As for 'the Beast', the elect should be very aware of the tie in of 'the Beast' with the prophecies in Daniel. The 'statue of Nebuchadnezzar' has not fallen yet. There are other, related prophecies, in Daniel which also tie into 'the Beast'.

Though, it is true, the elect do see the substance of 'the Beast', in the sense, that they understand the world and worshipers of the world are chasing after a neverending (seemingly) dream. One of absolute futility, a world which has risen up out of the neverending darkness of the Abyss.

 

[HTacianas]

Everyone knows Revelation is deep code, but if you talk to many self-styled prophecy experts, they will make claims otherwise -- though, by their own explanations, they show they agree. This is where they believe they have value, by deciphering that code for you.

It just so happens that their often very complicated decipherings - which are mainstream, usually - end up teaching a message that is from the eternal darkness, the Abyss, and not from the eternal light, God.

Jesus spoke of this, 'they are ever hearing, ever seeing, but never perceiving'.

God spoke of this to Moses, in a response to Aaron and Miriam's challenge of Moses, saying,

Numbers 12

'6 he said, “Listen to my words:

“When there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, reveal myself to them in visions,
I speak to them in dreams.
7 But this is not true of my servant Moses;
he is faithful in all my house.
8 With him I speak face to face,
clearly and not in riddles;
he sees the form of the Lord.
Why then were you not afraid
to speak against my servant Moses?”'

Indeed, it is true, God spoke in riddle to the Prophets, and in all prophecy.

Someone can argue that the Apostles did not speak this way, but in regards to end times prophecy, this is certainly true. They spoke of mysteries, and they spoke in terms of riddles. Jesus, himself stated, as to the 'last hour', that 'only the Father, who is in Heaven, knows'.

However, this does not mean it would always be this way, as it is Jesus who gives us Revelation. Part of the mystery there is Jesus points out that 'I sat on my father's throne', when he divulges that he is the one given John Revelation, through his angel.

Indeed, as I already pointed out, though Jesus 'always spoke to the people in parable' - which is certainly synonymous with 'code' or 'riddle' - he did speak to be heard by the elect. So, how did the apostles hear his teachings? How do the elect decipher what Jesus teaches? But, through the Spirit, the Spirit of the Son and of the Father, who 'teaches us all things'.

John pointed out, 'you do not need a teacher, for the Spirit will teach you all things'.

These things said, to end times prophecy, specifically, especially in regards to the very difficult code of Revelation...

If you perform much research here, in terms of looking at popular interpretations, you can easily be waylaid by the vast confusion - the 'muddying of waters' - put on it through the centuries. In fact, people would argue that there is only two ways to look at these matters: an "idealist" or "allegorical" way, or the literal way. Even though, with Revelation, especially, there is no literal way, and you will never meet anyone who espouses interpretations of it in an absolute literal way. Again, as I stated above, they may claim this, when it is convenient for them -- but, the very fact that they are offering interpretations shows that they believe there is something to interpret.

Approaching Revelation as code, is, in fact, the best literal way to approach it.

A good example of this is how the Catholic Church and other figureheads of the 'religious establishment' argue that they reign already with Christ. They do this primarily through the teachings of Augustine's 'City of God'. Augustine posited that Christians could say they are already in the Millennium, and so are already reigning with Christ, on earth.

Augustine also put forth that Constantine was the rider on the white horse.

Both of these teachings even the Catholic Church does not put enough stock into to include in their official teachings, as espoused by the "catechism", but it is, still, their official stance. And so in their official teachings, but simply not directly. This is only because it is such an indefensible position to take.

The literal reading of that passage, Revelation 20, is obvious. It depicts not only the return of Jesus, with the Angels, but also the killing of all flesh on earth. It depicts this as happening after Babylon is destroyed by the Beast, and after the Beast and False Prophet are captured and thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Right after all flesh on earth is not only killed, but 'gorged upon by the birds', then it is depicted that those who 'did not receive the mark of the beast on their hand or forehead', those 'beheaded by the Beast', are resurrected from the dead, and 'reign with Christ for a thousand years'.

Obviously, these things have not happened, yet.

Taking those matters as code, or some manner of figurative speech, is certainly a daunting task, but so is it with much of Revelation.

It is important here to remember that even the elect can have hard spirits. And this is well demonstrated by Jesus, when, after the feeding of the masses, Jesus found the apostles arguing among themselves about 'bread'. Jesus had warned against the 'bread of the Pharisees', and the Apostles were taking this to mean literal bread of the Pharisees. He pointed out to them that their hearts were hard, dull, that he obviously was not arguing about literal bread, asking them the rhetorical question about how he had just shown them they do not need to worry about literal food, at all -- he had just fed the masses by miracle, calling forth food from 'as if' 'thin air'.

In the end times, which it has been since Jesus taught, and certainly is very much so, right now, people are very interested in the meanings behind the code of Revelation. But, there is also a dire warning given there, at the end of the book. Not to add anything to it, nor to take anything away from it.

For those who put all the curses of Scripture on other people, this is the path they will take. The 'blind leading the blind, into a pit'. 'Pride comes before a fall'. And you can certainly know Revelation was designed with them in mind.

The pride God has allowed to fester on earth, is staggeringly high. It is compared to the Tower of Babel, by the depiction of the Christian religious establishment as "Babylon", pointing out that the 'adulteries' of 'Babylon' have mad the world drunk on the maddening wine of the blood of the witnesses.

You can certainly observe this pride in full force, today. You have the Catholic Church spinning its' wheels to try and avoid a major crisis which is in play, one which has implicated even the Pope, already, in multiple instances. Where a church is covering up, systematically, and across centuries, sex crimes against children -- even to the point of systematically placing these sex criminals back into not only the church, but continued access to their victims. Further, they have been caught doing this not only once or twice, but already tens of thousands of times. And, they had previously sworn they would not do this again, after the disclosures during the turn of the millennium.

Yet, somehow, the basic understanding that this "Babylon" spoken of is not the 'Christian religious establishment' fails to hit with many. Just as they fail to perceive that the dead in Christ have not resurrected, and they are certainly not reigning already with Christ 'for a thousand years'.

Likewise, 'the Beast', of Revelation, is often depicted as 'one person'. What one person has ten kingdoms on their head, or seven heads, for that matter?

Just because you have come to consider these interpretations as true, even having held that possibility as open for a long time, does not mean you are not elect. For we see the call in even Revelation, to the elect, crying, "Come out of Babylon, so you do not share in her punishment for her sins".

Do not think "Babylon" is only the "Catholic Church", either. It is the 'Christian religious establishment'. I just finished reading a paper last night in a Catholic paper that argued they were concerned about heavy Catholic investment in Trump, arguing that he was going to fall, and this would cause a lot of problems for Catholics. That is, Catholics who had invested heavily in Trump. Seeing him as their leader.

All across Revelation, there are obtuse riddles put forth, very often these are put forth in terms people have a very difficult time fathoming as riddles at all. We all know this.

The 'two witnesses' are a good example of this. Many rest on their readings of Revelation, trusting in the 'false prophets', who like most of the "Christian" 'false prophets' of today were mere interpreters of prophecy, not claiming God actually spoke to them.

This was said of Jesus, that he spoke with authority, unlike the Pharisees.

And, today, we have to be wary of the bread of the modern Pharisees. The "Christian" religious establishment. An establishment such as the world is established. Where the strong and the cunning push their way through intrigue to the top of the heap. In the world.

Where Satan shows them favor, placing them in positions of wealth and power. Both in the State, and in the Christian religious establishment that is of the world. (Reader take note here, I am speaking of the false Christianity that is of the world, not the true Christianity that is not of this world. As for this distinction, even they, themselves, ultimately view themselves as being 'of the world'. This is part of the curse of equating the reigning of Christ with the reigning of Satan. The curse of equating the world, with the Kingdom of God. Love of the world, with love of God.)

On 'the two witnesses', they believe they would be aware of this, if anything else is such matters they may not be aware of it. How could it happen without the whole world knowing who they are, is their reasoning.

But, they could and do, to some degree, say this with the rest of Revelation.

However, is that fire which comes from their mouth literal? Is the water turned to literal blood, as Moses turned the waters to literal blood? Is their death seen by the entire population of the world? Their resurrection, too? This is a misreading, which they believe is a correct reading. Though, the whole world does see the two witnesses.

(And am I saying the two witnesses have not already come? I do believe they have already come, but will not argue that point, here. But, I point this out merely to point out how I worded this, to fit with those who see this as a future event. The way in which I stated this does not mean that I am literally saying they are yet to be.)

How does the 'sky roll up like a scroll'? This, too, comes well before the two witnesses, and many other major events in Revelation? This would certainly be something the whole world would witness. And, we have, haven't we. We have a closed book on the sky, or the heavens, don't we? We have landed men on the moon, and have a vast view of the Heavens. We no longer see the sun as revolving around the earth, and countless other mysteries about the Heavens have been solved.

These things really started, and happened, long ago.

Likewise, we have already seen horrible plagues which have decimated the earth, again and again. Not only literal plagues, such as the black death, but also spiritual plagues, such as the vast tower of false teachings which rise above the earth as the tower of babel did.

In terms of the water turning to blood, Babylon sits on the waters, and is drunk with the blood of the witnesses, or martyrs. ("Martyr" is Greek for "Witness".)

When Moses turned the waters into blood, the false prophets, Jannes and Jambres, were able to repeat this plague. Adding to its' devastation.

(It should not be thought that what Jannes and Jambres did was anything more then magic tricks, however. I only illustrate this for purpose of answering the argument that a confused person might make, that I am stating 'Babylon' turns water into blood. 'Babylon's blood wine should be considered more like the modern concept of 'blood money'.)

There is much within Revelation people need to be asking the Lord on 'what does it mean'. The Spirit is within and 'leads into all truth'. But, one has to be open to hearing the truth, even though the Spirit of Truth does repeat, consistently, truth to you, in your heart.

Indeed, it is these very things I exhort believers to pay attention to: those things which have been often repeated to you, in your very heart. Often, over many years. Things which you should finally pay attention to.

The difficulty of the Spirit getting your attention on such matters as end times prophecy is that the world says very different things, in many different ways. And, it is daunting to shove all of that aside, judging your fellow Christians as being in the wrong, or possibly so.

We are asked to respect the authority of soldiers and police, as being authority of God. Likewise, should we truly question anyone placed into power in the world, even if they are of the 'Christian religious establishment'? But, we are certainly told we should not refrain from judging our own - or those who claim to be our own - while we are told we should not bother judging those of the world. ('As for those in the world, let God judge them', Paul. A plain and obvious exhortation, which is very clearly ignored by those who equate 'the world' with 'the Kingdom of God'.)

Regardless, there are many such things in Revelation which need to be discerned by Christians. Including the identity, or general substance of 'the Beast', so they are not fooled. This does include such matters as, 'what does it mean you can not buy or sell', and 'what does it mean to be beheaded by the beast'.

As for 'the Beast', the elect should be very aware of the tie in of 'the Beast' with the prophecies in Daniel. The 'statue of Nebuchadnezzar' has not fallen yet. There are other, related prophecies, in Daniel which also tie into 'the Beast'.

Though, it is true, the elect do see the substance of 'the Beast', in the sense, that they understand the world and worshipers of the world are chasing after a neverending (seemingly) dream. One of absolute futility, a world which has risen up out of the neverending darkness of the Abyss.

You're right that it is in "code". That code is the language of the old testament. The Revelation uses that code to describe a brief history of Christianity and then the end of the old covenant in the form of the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Everyone knows Revelation is deep code, but if you talk to many self-styled prophecy experts, they will make claims otherwise -- though, by their own explanations, they show they agree. This is where they believe they have value, by deciphering that code for you.

It just so happens that their often very complicated decipherings - which are mainstream, usually - end up teaching a message that is from the eternal darkness, the Abyss, and not from the eternal light, God.

Jesus spoke of this, 'they are ever hearing, ever seeing, but never perceiving'.

God spoke of this to Moses, in a response to Aaron and Miriam's challenge of Moses, saying,

Numbers 12

'6 he said, “Listen to my words:

“When there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, reveal myself to them in visions,
I speak to them in dreams.
7 But this is not true of my servant Moses;
he is faithful in all my house.
8 With him I speak face to face,
clearly and not in riddles;
he sees the form of the Lord.
Why then were you not afraid
to speak against my servant Moses?”'

Indeed, it is true, God spoke in riddle to the Prophets, and in all prophecy.

Someone can argue that the Apostles did not speak this way, but in regards to end times prophecy, this is certainly true. They spoke of mysteries, and they spoke in terms of riddles. Jesus, himself stated, as to the 'last hour', that 'only the Father, who is in Heaven, knows'.

However, this does not mean it would always be this way, as it is Jesus who gives us Revelation. Part of the mystery there is Jesus points out that 'I sat on my father's throne', when he divulges that he is the one given John Revelation, through his angel.

Indeed, as I already pointed out, though Jesus 'always spoke to the people in parable' - which is certainly synonymous with 'code' or 'riddle' - he did speak to be heard by the elect. So, how did the apostles hear his teachings? How do the elect decipher what Jesus teaches? But, through the Spirit, the Spirit of the Son and of the Father, who 'teaches us all things'.

John pointed out, 'you do not need a teacher, for the Spirit will teach you all things'.

These things said, to end times prophecy, specifically, especially in regards to the very difficult code of Revelation...

If you perform much research here, in terms of looking at popular interpretations, you can easily be waylaid by the vast confusion - the 'muddying of waters' - put on it through the centuries. In fact, people would argue that there is only two ways to look at these matters: an "idealist" or "allegorical" way, or the literal way. Even though, with Revelation, especially, there is no literal way, and you will never meet anyone who espouses interpretations of it in an absolute literal way. Again, as I stated above, they may claim this, when it is convenient for them -- but, the very fact that they are offering interpretations shows that they believe there is something to interpret.

Approaching Revelation as code, is, in fact, the best literal way to approach it.

A good example of this is how the Catholic Church and other figureheads of the 'religious establishment' argue that they reign already with Christ. They do this primarily through the teachings of Augustine's 'City of God'. Augustine posited that Christians could say they are already in the Millennium, and so are already reigning with Christ, on earth.

Augustine also put forth that Constantine was the rider on the white horse.

Both of these teachings even the Catholic Church does not put enough stock into to include in their official teachings, as espoused by the "catechism", but it is, still, their official stance. And so in their official teachings, but simply not directly. This is only because it is such an indefensible position to take.

The literal reading of that passage, Revelation 20, is obvious. It depicts not only the return of Jesus, with the Angels, but also the killing of all flesh on earth. It depicts this as happening after Babylon is destroyed by the Beast, and after the Beast and False Prophet are captured and thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Right after all flesh on earth is not only killed, but 'gorged upon by the birds', then it is depicted that those who 'did not receive the mark of the beast on their hand or forehead', those 'beheaded by the Beast', are resurrected from the dead, and 'reign with Christ for a thousand years'.

Obviously, these things have not happened, yet.

Taking those matters as code, or some manner of figurative speech, is certainly a daunting task, but so is it with much of Revelation.

It is important here to remember that even the elect can have hard spirits. And this is well demonstrated by Jesus, when, after the feeding of the masses, Jesus found the apostles arguing among themselves about 'bread'. Jesus had warned against the 'bread of the Pharisees', and the Apostles were taking this to mean literal bread of the Pharisees. He pointed out to them that their hearts were hard, dull, that he obviously was not arguing about literal bread, asking them the rhetorical question about how he had just shown them they do not need to worry about literal food, at all -- he had just fed the masses by miracle, calling forth food from 'as if' 'thin air'.

In the end times, which it has been since Jesus taught, and certainly is very much so, right now, people are very interested in the meanings behind the code of Revelation. But, there is also a dire warning given there, at the end of the book. Not to add anything to it, nor to take anything away from it.

For those who put all the curses of Scripture on other people, this is the path they will take. The 'blind leading the blind, into a pit'. 'Pride comes before a fall'. And you can certainly know Revelation was designed with them in mind.

The pride God has allowed to fester on earth, is staggeringly high. It is compared to the Tower of Babel, by the depiction of the Christian religious establishment as "Babylon", pointing out that the 'adulteries' of 'Babylon' have mad the world drunk on the maddening wine of the blood of the witnesses.

You can certainly observe this pride in full force, today. You have the Catholic Church spinning its' wheels to try and avoid a major crisis which is in play, one which has implicated even the Pope, already, in multiple instances. Where a church is covering up, systematically, and across centuries, sex crimes against children -- even to the point of systematically placing these sex criminals back into not only the church, but continued access to their victims. Further, they have been caught doing this not only once or twice, but already tens of thousands of times. And, they had previously sworn they would not do this again, after the disclosures during the turn of the millennium.

Yet, somehow, the basic understanding that this "Babylon" spoken of is not the 'Christian religious establishment' fails to hit with many. Just as they fail to perceive that the dead in Christ have not resurrected, and they are certainly not reigning already with Christ 'for a thousand years'.

Likewise, 'the Beast', of Revelation, is often depicted as 'one person'. What one person has ten kingdoms on their head, or seven heads, for that matter?

Just because you have come to consider these interpretations as true, even having held that possibility as open for a long time, does not mean you are not elect. For we see the call in even Revelation, to the elect, crying, "Come out of Babylon, so you do not share in her punishment for her sins".

Do not think "Babylon" is only the "Catholic Church", either. It is the 'Christian religious establishment'. I just finished reading a paper last night in a Catholic paper that argued they were concerned about heavy Catholic investment in Trump, arguing that he was going to fall, and this would cause a lot of problems for Catholics. That is, Catholics who had invested heavily in Trump. Seeing him as their leader.

All across Revelation, there are obtuse riddles put forth, very often these are put forth in terms people have a very difficult time fathoming as riddles at all. We all know this.

The 'two witnesses' are a good example of this. Many rest on their readings of Revelation, trusting in the 'false prophets', who like most of the "Christian" 'false prophets' of today were mere interpreters of prophecy, not claiming God actually spoke to them.

This was said of Jesus, that he spoke with authority, unlike the Pharisees.

And, today, we have to be wary of the bread of the modern Pharisees. The "Christian" religious establishment. An establishment such as the world is established. Where the strong and the cunning push their way through intrigue to the top of the heap. In the world.

Where Satan shows them favor, placing them in positions of wealth and power. Both in the State, and in the Christian religious establishment that is of the world. (Reader take note here, I am speaking of the false Christianity that is of the world, not the true Christianity that is not of this world. As for this distinction, even they, themselves, ultimately view themselves as being 'of the world'. This is part of the curse of equating the reigning of Christ with the reigning of Satan. The curse of equating the world, with the Kingdom of God. Love of the world, with love of God.)

On 'the two witnesses', they believe they would be aware of this, if anything else is such matters they may not be aware of it. How could it happen without the whole world knowing who they are, is their reasoning.

But, they could and do, to some degree, say this with the rest of Revelation.

However, is that fire which comes from their mouth literal? Is the water turned to literal blood, as Moses turned the waters to literal blood? Is their death seen by the entire population of the world? Their resurrection, too? This is a misreading, which they believe is a correct reading. Though, the whole world does see the two witnesses.

(And am I saying the two witnesses have not already come? I do believe they have already come, but will not argue that point, here. But, I point this out merely to point out how I worded this, to fit with those who see this as a future event. The way in which I stated this does not mean that I am literally saying they are yet to be.)

How does the 'sky roll up like a scroll'? This, too, comes well before the two witnesses, and many other major events in Revelation? This would certainly be something the whole world would witness. And, we have, haven't we. We have a closed book on the sky, or the heavens, don't we? We have landed men on the moon, and have a vast view of the Heavens. We no longer see the sun as revolving around the earth, and countless other mysteries about the Heavens have been solved.

These things really started, and happened, long ago.

Likewise, we have already seen horrible plagues which have decimated the earth, again and again. Not only literal plagues, such as the black death, but also spiritual plagues, such as the vast tower of false teachings which rise above the earth as the tower of babel did.

In terms of the water turning to blood, Babylon sits on the waters, and is drunk with the blood of the witnesses, or martyrs. ("Martyr" is Greek for "Witness".)

When Moses turned the waters into blood, the false prophets, Jannes and Jambres, were able to repeat this plague. Adding to its' devastation.

(It should not be thought that what Jannes and Jambres did was anything more then magic tricks, however. I only illustrate this for purpose of answering the argument that a confused person might make, that I am stating 'Babylon' turns water into blood. 'Babylon's blood wine should be considered more like the modern concept of 'blood money'.)

There is much within Revelation people need to be asking the Lord on 'what does it mean'. The Spirit is within and 'leads into all truth'. But, one has to be open to hearing the truth, even though the Spirit of Truth does repeat, consistently, truth to you, in your heart.

Indeed, it is these very things I exhort believers to pay attention to: those things which have been often repeated to you, in your very heart. Often, over many years. Things which you should finally pay attention to.

The difficulty of the Spirit getting your attention on such matters as end times prophecy is that the world says very different things, in many different ways. And, it is daunting to shove all of that aside, judging your fellow Christians as being in the wrong, or possibly so.

We are asked to respect the authority of soldiers and police, as being authority of God. Likewise, should we truly question anyone placed into power in the world, even if they are of the 'Christian religious establishment'? But, we are certainly told we should not refrain from judging our own - or those who claim to be our own - while we are told we should not bother judging those of the world. ('As for those in the world, let God judge them', Paul. A plain and obvious exhortation, which is very clearly ignored by those who equate 'the world' with 'the Kingdom of God'.)

Regardless, there are many such things in Revelation which need to be discerned by Christians. Including the identity, or general substance of 'the Beast', so they are not fooled. This does include such matters as, 'what does it mean you can not buy or sell', and 'what does it mean to be beheaded by the beast'.

As for 'the Beast', the elect should be very aware of the tie in of 'the Beast' with the prophecies in Daniel. The 'statue of Nebuchadnezzar' has not fallen yet. There are other, related prophecies, in Daniel which also tie into 'the Beast'.

Though, it is true, the elect do see the substance of 'the Beast', in the sense, that they understand the world and worshipers of the world are chasing after a neverending (seemingly) dream. One of absolute futility, a world which has risen up out of the neverending darkness of the Abyss.

DreamerOfTheHeart, you obviously have been doing some studying in eschatology, and I can appreciate your desire to get to the heart of these prophetic matters. I even agree with your general evaluation about the nature of prophecy, that much of what we see in Daniel and Revelation is given in "riddles" or metaphorical and figurative language.

However, just be careful when inferring that "all things prophetic are given in riddles" and then turn around and make what sound like firm statements of prophetic truth, as when you say, "Do not think "Babylon" is only the "Catholic Church", either. It is the 'Christian religious establishment'." This may or may not be the case, even if you are correct when implying that we all hear and see prophecy through a 'mirror dimly.'

Just something to consider, brother, especially since we all have to look through the same mirror.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[iamlamad]

I disagree with your theory of "code." One of the biggest problems with understanding this book is that people continually pull verses out of their context. The first seal is a glaring example. It was opened by Jesus as soon as He ascended and took the book from the Father - yet many insist that it represents the Beast of chapter 13.
Another example is the harlot of Babylon. IN CONTEXT it is referring to events and things associated with the last half of the future 70th week of Daniel. John wrote that it was "that great city" but few can believe John was talking about a literal city. He was, in fact, talking about the city of Jerusalem.

 

[com7fy8]

right now, people are very interested in the meanings behind the code of Revelation.

Well, are we first getting all which Revelation can give us about how to be in love and how to live in God's love? Ones can right away get into trying to figure out what the historical items mean and the judgments. And then they can be so busy with pointing at others, rather than at how they themselves need to become in love with God.

The messages to the seven churches can help us to know how to be with God and how to live in our own lives now. And there are other things. How does it all mean for us to become now? There is this love meaning.

One thing I notice is how John says he was in the Holy Spirit when this revelation vision came to him; yet, later during this vision John fell down to worship and angel. That was sinning, I would say, right while John was getting a heavenly vision. So, this can mean we ourselves, though spiritual, need to always stay submissive to God and His self control in us, always stay sensitive to Him Himself in us.

 

[Dr. D Bunker]

bye

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

I disagree with your theory of "code." One of the biggest problems with understanding this book is that people continually pull verses out of their context. The first seal is a glaring example. It was opened by Jesus as soon as He ascended and took the book from the Father - yet many insist that it represents the Beast of chapter 13.
Another example is the harlot of Babylon. IN CONTEXT it is referring to events and things associated with the last half of the future 70th week of Daniel. John wrote that it was "that great city" but few can believe John was talking about a literal city. He was, in fact, talking about the city of Jerusalem.

That would still be code.

You believe you have deciphered it. A riddle you believe you have solved. Semantics, there. Riddle, complicated metaphors, code, cipher, parables, and so on.

(And it does not matter if someone else deciphered it, or your own self -- indeed, no man can decipher any of the codes of biblical prophecy, but only the Lord, through the Spirit of the Lord.)

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

Can't agree with that. Not one portion of any beast has anything to do with the church, Catholicism, or of any Christian unification. To say that it does means all the evils we read about to come in the last days are attributed to the church. The end-time church will not be against itself.

Never said the Catholic Church nor the 'Christian religious establishment' was 'the Beast'.

'The Beast' is related to the statue of Nebuchadnezzar. It has to do with 'the world', not a church.

I take this as an honest mistake, on your part. However, it is frequently seen on this forum where people put words in other people's mouths.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

DreamerOfTheHeart, you obviously have been doing some studying in eschatology, and I can appreciate your desire to get to the heart of these prophetic matters. I even agree with your general evaluation about the nature of prophecy, that much of what we see in Daniel and Revelation is given in "riddles" or metaphorical and figurative language.

However, just be careful when inferring that "all things prophetic are given in riddles" and then turn around and make what sound like firm statements of prophetic truth, as when you say, "Do not think "Babylon" is only the "Catholic Church", either. It is the 'Christian religious establishment'." This may or may not be the case, even if you are correct when implying that we all hear and see prophecy through a 'mirror dimly.'

Just something to consider, brother, especially since we all have to look through the same mirror.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

Depends on my definition of 'the Christian religious establishment'. I certainly there mean the evil parts of it.

The same sort of wide reaching metaphors, we use all the time, in ordinary speech. It is certainly used in Revelation, such as with 'the Beast' -- 'the Beast' is related to the 'statue of Nebuchadnezzar', and if we track it back to the kingdoms that followed Rome, we would certainly be stuck looking right at modern 'Western Civilization'. Especially the 'superpowers' therein. Not everything is 'of the Beast', just because it is American, or British, or what have you.

Certainly, not even every politician, every soldier, every cop, nor anything like that.

Rome was part of 'the Beast' ('five have fallen, one is'), but so was Israel, where Jesus ministered, and the Apostles came from. Peter worked from, not 'Babylon', but 'Rome', which 'Babylon' was code for.

Paul was a Roman citizen.

The person with the greatest faith Jesus came across was a Centurion. Which in our modern form, would be a mixture between a police officer and a soldier officer.

So, while I appreciate your 'liking' of my post, you should remember to treat metaphor carefully. As is the topic of the post.

However, I am sure your intent was merely to issue caution. But, too much caution is offered by many Christians these days on the 'religious establishment'. As it was with the Corinthians, Christians are all too eager to not judge even severe situations of error. Such as it was there, when a man was with his father's wife.

The Corinthians were not judging those of the world. But, it is in their rebuke, by Paul, where Paul pointed out it is not our place to judge those of the world. Something which Christians, today, are all too willing to do.

(Because they are under the erroneous belief that the 'world' is 'the Kingdom of God', 'the Church', which it certainly is not.)

(I might add here, while I do figure America into this equation of evil, above, I also believe America is the 'woman clothed with the sun, her feet above the moon'. As America was the first nation to land on the moon, and has many good principles in her founding. America was initially with twelve colonies, the thirteenth colony was declared by their own selves when they signed the declaration of independence, as an independent colony. Hence, the 'twelve stars over her head'. Besides the probability that the figurative '12 tribes' of the 144,000 are, at least, partially found here.)

Whatever the case, by any definition, the metaphors and metaphoric frameworks of Revelation are extremely difficult to make sense of.

The Spirit is our guide, who 'teaches us all things'. This does require sticking to the word Jesus spoke to us, however, something which the world, and the modern religious establishment keeps people away from. The Spirit also guides people into understanding how to see through even complex metaphors.

We all live in a world full of complex metaphors. Fiction, cinema, these present to us very complex metaphors all the time.

 

[Dr. D Bunker]

bye

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

No mistake on my part! I'm NOT putting words in your mouth. They came out of yours in the OP!

You said,

Do not think "Babylon" is only the "Catholic Church", either. It is the 'Christian religious establishment'.
_______________________________________
You're replies are long and ambiguous, but it's pretty clear what you said. ​

I have never replied to you before. Are you another poster who is using a pseudonym? My responses above, are quite clear and pretty short. Except to one poster, who was friendly.

This post will be long. And not ambiguous.

You did put words in my mouth, as I stated, I did not call the Catholic Church, nor the 'Christian religious establishment': "the Beast". As you accused me of doing.

You stated:

Can't agree with that. Not one portion of any beast has anything to do with the church, Catholicism, or of any Christian unification. To say that it does means all the evils we read about to come in the last days are attributed to the church. The end-time church will not be against itself.

"Babylon" is not "the Beast".

"Babylon" is a Christian organization, as one can tell from the description of it.

Revelation 17
"2 With her the kings of the earth committed adultery, and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries."

Keyword there is "adulteries", which indicates it is a christian group that is being discussed. Some argue that it is "judaism", but in Revelation Jesus points to a synagogue and says they are straight up of Satan. Not adulterous to Jesus.

Isaiah 47 speaks of "Babylon" saying God exiled the Church into Babylon, just as he exiled Israel into the literal Babylon. God said there, by doing so, he "desecrated his inheritance". God did not desecrate his inheritance by exiling Israel into literal, physical Babylon. So, clearly, God is talking about another Babylon there, and another instance of exiling.

So, yes, the "Babylon" in Revelation is certainly a "Christian" organization.

It can even still yet have some elect in it. Because, we see in Revelation the call for believers to "come out of Babylon".

As for the relationship to Babylon and the Beast, there is one. She rides the Beast.

Nothing hidden about that, the Catholic Church did not even exist until Rome's leadership converted to Christianity.

A lot of innocent and good people live in the Beast, or work in the Beast. That does not mean they worship the Beast. Rome was part of the Beast. As I responded to another poster. "Five were, one is". The one that was, was Rome. The power that ruled the earth during the time Revelation was given.

This points back to the 'state of Nebuchadnezzar'. The Beast is clearly related to that statue. Nobody denies that Rome was the calves of that statue. In retrospect, it is clear today, and it was clear in the first century.

Further, Peter was stated as being in "Babylon", but this was understood by Christian ancient writers, and the Catholic Church, to mean "Rome". It was and remains understood to mean "Rome". This is how they attribute Peter to Rome.

Because they used the word "Babylon" for it.

As for the many sins of the Catholic Church, there have been many books written about this. It is front page news, these days.

As for unification, I have no idea what you mean. There is no unification between the Catholic Church and any other church.

If you mean my term "Christian religious establishment", that does not imply "unification". But, both other branches of Christianity came from the Catholic Church. The Orthodox split near the last millennium, and the Protestants split about five hundred years ago.

Both major branches took many errors with them. Even the Protestant branch.

They are children of the Catholic Church.

For the most part, far less like their mother.

There are better churches and better denominations. But, brick and mortar does not save. The Kingdom of God is not of brick and mortar, nor flesh and blood, but the Spirit.

The one true and only Church is invisible and indivisible, for it is united in one Spirit, the Spirit of the Father and of the Son.

Nobody is saved by a church.

At best, a church can plant a seed and water it. But, it is Jesus who gives the growth. So, the church, its' self, is nothing.

As Paul said to the Corinthians, when one said "I am of Apollos", and another said, "I am of Paul".

Paul, speaking of, is the Apostle to the Gentiles, not Peter. Only reason Jesus said he would found his church on Peter was because of the dream Peter had, as explained in the Book of Acts.

Some Protestant churches do claim you must go to their church, to be saved. The "Church of Christ" has this error. "Jehovah Witnesses" have this error. "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" have this error. Some others do. And like the Catholic Church, they also impugn on their name this manner of claim. Which Revelation states is blasphemous.

It is, because churches do not save, and one is not damned for not going to this or that church.

Jesus alone saves.

Putting one's church on the same level as Jesus, the Lord, is equivalent to blasphemy.

Exactly as Revelation warns.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

You're right that it is in "code". That code is the language of the old testament. The Revelation uses that code to describe a brief history of Christianity and then the end of the old covenant in the form of the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans.

No idea what you are saying, but yes, I am right in what I wrote.

I do agree with you there.

The Law was not, however, put to death by the destruction of Jerusalem. The Law was put to death in Jesus Christ crucified.

As for the code of Revelation being the "language of the Old Testament", it is related to some of the prophetic portions of the Old Testament, obviously. But, it is much more obtuse and complicated. You can tell, however, it is the very same God behind it all.

If this is your way of arguing that Revelation all happened before the destruction of Israel, why not just come out and say that? But, that seems to be an attempt to hijack this thread to push some strange full preterist teaching.

I can see why you would not come out and argue that, here. It is not allowed on this forum, according to the notice on the board.

But, this is not a thread arguing for nor against "full preterism" anyway.

I do not know why they have banned that here, but I expect they have a good reason to do so.

I certainly find that system of doctrines in error, but I also find a lot of the doctrines taught on this subforum full of errors. However, if I wish to argue against them here, I could do so by posting in threads marked for that topic, or I can respond to posters who respond to me when I make posts about their errors.

This post was not about the error of full preterism.

Please move on or clarify your statements.

 

[Dr. D Bunker]

bye

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

You said,


Let see how that fits compared to Islam. Quick commentary on Isaiah 47. Will edit and add to tomorrow.

Babylon is never associated with a Christian organization, and no matter how hard you try to make it fit, it doesn't. Babylon is associated with false religion and the region of the Arab/Babylonian Middle-East which today is dominated by Islam. If you think it describes a Christian organization, then you have a shoehorn.

"Come down, and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon, sit on the ground: there is no throne, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called tender and delicate. Take the millstones, and grind meal: uncover thy locks, make bare the leg, uncover the thigh, pass over the rivers. Thy nakedness shall be uncovered, yea, thy shame shall be seen: I will take vengeance, and I will not meet thee as a man."

She is Islam, Babylon the great, the mother of harlots/jihadist, she promises virgins in paradise for those who, "commit the abominations of the earth."

The Chaldeans...= the inhabitants of Chaldea, living on the lower Euphrates and Tigris...they aren't associated with Christians. They are with the Arabs and Muslim's.

...sit in the dust...=dry or loose earth, Mecca and Medina sit in the desert dust. She's a virgin in distress, no more throne, she's poor, no longer tender and delicate, sitting on the ground, she's in mourning, grinding at the millstone=degraded and laboring. Mecca no longer has a seat to sit on. Mecca is destroyed.

...: uncover thy locks,... Locks = the hijab!.. a woman's veil or head covering, head scarf...make bare the leg, uncover the thigh...the Khimar, the Abaya, the chador, BORKAH! Muslim women don't show skin.

...thy shame shall be seen,....the evil's of Islam is evident, ...virgins in paradise,??? the hypocrisy of Islam is now exposed.

Sit thou silent, and get thee into darkness, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called, The lady of kingdoms..... The followers of the harlot are ashamed to show their face,
...she's no longer called the lady of kingdoms....she is no longer the religion of many.

And thou saidst, I shall be a lady for ever: so that thou didst not lay these things to thy heart, neither didst remember the latter end of it.

Islam/Mecca is haughty, she thought she would remain a mistress forever, she ignorant and never thought her destruction would come.

Therefore hear now this, thou that art given to pleasures, that dwellest carelessly, that sayest in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me; I shall not sit as a widow, neither shall I know the loss of children:

....thou that art given to pleasures,...a slave to pleasure,...sex slaves, child brides, rape, the Koran sanctions the pimping out of their women.

...that dwellest carelessly....careless, she never thought her occupation would be disturbed or interrupted.

that sayest in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me; I shall not sit as a widow, neither shall I know the loss of children:

They believed there was no other religion besides her, she never thought she would remain desolate and experience the loss of her children/followers.

Rev. 18:7 I sit as a queen, and shall see no sorrow.
But these two things shall come to thee in a moment in one day, the loss of children, and widowhood: they shall come upon thee in their perfection for the multitude of thy sorceries, and for the great abundance of thine enchantments.

This may refer to the harlot (Mecca) being burned with fire. In a day she becomes desolate and childless....they shall come upon thee in their perfection for the multitude of thy sorceries,
...sorceries/incantations... often associated with whoredom,
...and for the great abundance of thine enchantments. Calling to prayer from the minarets, a charmer, a spell.

As you read the rest of the chapter, just keep the evils of Islam in mind....

For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness: (EVIL) thou hast said, None seeth me. Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee; (Koran, Hadiths, have perverted Islam..... and thou hast said in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me.
Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to put it off: and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, which thou shalt not know.

Stand now with thine enchantments, and with the multitude of thy sorceries, wherein thou hast laboured from thy youth; if so be thou shalt be able to profit, if so be thou mayest prevail.
Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators, stand up, and save thee from these things that shall come upon thee.
Mecca and/or Medina get nuked....

Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it.

Thus shall they be unto thee with whom thou hast laboured, even thy merchants, from thy youth: they shall wander every one to his quarter; none shall save thee.

Really, the point of this topic is about Revelation being in code, where instead there is a prevalence of people who teach on Revelation and claim that is not. Or, conversely, argue that such viewpoints are taking an "idealist" or "allegorical" stance which is distinct in and of its' self.

The biggest problem here is with those who take too literal of a stance, that is, misunderstanding what may appear to be straightforward as not metaphoric.

As if something can not be both metaphoric and literal at the same time.

For instance, the bread Jesus was talking about was metaphoric for the teachings of the Pharisees. It literally meant the teachings of the Pharisees. It did not literally mean literal, physical bread the Pharisees cooked.

As for the meaning of Babylon, I do not have much issue with it being taken as, for instance, Islam. I disagree, but at least that is not the view that it is Jerusalem. And the only reason I bother arguing against people on that, is because the view is anti-semitic.

Anti-Semitism in modern times is a relic of the failed "holy" "roman" empire. "Roman", in quotes, because it was German. Nazism and Communism was born from that wreck.

Both are pitiful and disgusting.

Like anything so pitiful, it can be laughable, at times. Albeit I have a very dark sense of humor.

Islam, however, is also irrelevant. So is literal, physical Jerusalem. God may choose the later for the base of operations during the reign of Christ. Or, not. Whatever the case, they will see nothing until they call Jesus, "Lord".

I, otherwise, do not have much problem with Israel, though they have some good capabilities, they also have some terribly incompetent capabilities.

Islam, I do not enjoy, but it is not worth mentioning in Revelation. They are very ignorant. They do not have the light of the gospel, or even the law and prophets. So there is only so much damage they could do.

Jerusalem, mentioned in Revelation 11 was not about the literal Jerusalem. And, that has already transpired. You will not convince me otherwise, and I have no desire to convince you.

Or, anyone.

... read the rest of your post...

Not much to say. I am afraid, the eye of the hurricane is a lot closer to home.

The takedown of Babylon, by the Beast is not a physical war. It is more like what we see today with exposure of serious crimes. Global shame.

Likewise, the Beast and False Prophet are not taken down by men with their tanks and their bombs. But by angels from Heaven. That is where the all important proof comes in. Evidence the world has long demanded, they will finally get. And this is significant enough that it will cause the entirety of human kind to be convinced.

People see this sort of thing in science fiction and fantasy movies, as their minds are being prepared for it. 'Who controls the media, controls the mind.'

I am speaking here of indirect communication as is found in the complicated metaphors of cinema. Not the news media, though they are needed and used in these last stages.

This is how all of Islam will see Jesus is Lord.

In real life, there is no true preparation for such evidence. The fiction just helps them receive the message, the evidence. The actual evidence will decimate all who have their belief investments in the wrong places.

Exactly as Jesus described in his apocalyptic statements.

There is no way to explain such a thing to anyone who has not experienced it.

But, everyone who is believing the wrong way will have all those beliefs flatlined. With no turning back.

That is the result of spiritual warfare, when it reaches that level. Where it is met by the force of angels of God in numbers human beings can not comprehend. With capabilities human beings can not comprehend.

This will be a global disclosure, and as part of it, the lawless one - who is many - will be shown up for what and who they really are.

That is the appearance of the Kingdom of God, to the whole world.

It will break the powers of all the nations. Communist, Islamist, Fascist dictatorial, and even Democracies.

Exactly as Revelation mentions, multiple times.

Otherwise, I like democracies. I have worked to sustain them. It is better then the alternatives that man has available.

I hate Islam, and Mecca is deplorable. Laughable, they are worshipping a rock that fell from outer space there. But, also their nations are full of bigotry, religious hypocrisy, and violence.

Those who are this way, especially the more invested they are into these lies, will suffer all the more. Because it will be taken from them, and they will be exposed for the servants of Satan and enemies of God they really are.

But, I am not talking there about merely Islam.

...

Anyway, I get it. Humans think in terms of physical combat, and group efforts rooted in the power of gathering many together to accomplish singular goals.

The later is what they did with the tower of babel.

It is human nature. What they can do with their minds, their mouths, and their hands.

But, the Kingdom of God is about power. Angels are invisible and can control humans and reality its' self. They can appear in glorified bodies made of light and fire, or as a human being. One angel can appear as many human beings. Each can operate independently.

To lead King Ahab to his death, one angel possessed 400 prophets at once.

There were only 400 to possess. That was not the limit of what that one angel could do.

Ezkiel's wheel was not a spacecraft. It was real, but also a metaphor. Even the idea that humans would think aliens would need spacecrafts is absurd. When humans had chariots, they used chariots from outer space. It is what humans could understand. It is the language of heavenly beings translating to humans in their own language.

In order to get people to engage them, they have to appear as able to be engaged. Who would go against a known chessmaster? But if bets are laid and that chessmaster makes it appear they are an easy win...

Then the game gets engagement.

 

[Lost4words]

Interpretation. All end times experts on here have 'their' own interpretation on what Revelation means.

 

[Lost4words]

99.9% of Revelation has been and gone. Everyone likes to read it as future doom and gloom.

Every generation since it was written there have been 'end times experts' predicting the end was nigh.

Jesus came. Jesus conquered.

 

[Dr. D Bunker]

bye

 

[Lost4words]

It's one thing to say that, it's another to prove it. I expect you're a historicist as most Catholics are. God did not leave out of His Word the time when the planet would be most populated and go through the most troublesome time the earth would ever know. A time where one of the most evil and primitive religions in the world, would use some of the most horrific means know to man to dominate it. Islam and terrorism is written all over end-time prophecy.

The Catholic faith was murderous too remember? Very barbaric. As have been other faiths.

The destruction of Jerusalem was a VERY troublesome time in 70AD. I can imagine many thought it was the end of the world.

 

[iamlamad]

You said,


Let see how that fits compared to Islam. Quick commentary on Isaiah 47. Will edit and add to tomorrow.

Babylon is never associated with a Christian organization, and no matter how hard you try to make it fit, it doesn't. Babylon is associated with false religion and the region of the Arab/Babylonian Middle-East which today is dominated by Islam. If you think it describes a Christian organization, then you have a shoehorn.

"Come down, and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon, sit on the ground: there is no throne, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called tender and delicate. Take the millstones, and grind meal: uncover thy locks, make bare the leg, uncover the thigh, pass over the rivers. Thy nakedness shall be uncovered, yea, thy shame shall be seen: I will take vengeance, and I will not meet thee as a man."

She is Islam, Babylon the great, the mother of harlots/jihadist, she promises virgins in paradise for those who, "commit the abominations of the earth."

The Chaldeans...= the inhabitants of Chaldea, living on the lower Euphrates and Tigris...they aren't associated with Christians. They are with the Arabs and Muslim's.

...sit in the dust...=dry or loose earth, Mecca and Medina sit in the desert dust. She's a virgin in distress, no more throne, she's poor, no longer tender and delicate, sitting on the ground, she's in mourning, grinding at the millstone=degraded and laboring. Mecca no longer has a seat to sit on. Mecca is destroyed.

...: uncover thy locks,... Locks = the hijab!.. a woman's veil or head covering, head scarf...make bare the leg, uncover the thigh...the Khimar, the Abaya, the chador, BORKAH! Muslim women don't show skin.

...thy shame shall be seen,....the evil's of Islam is evident, ...virgins in paradise,??? the hypocrisy of Islam is now exposed.

Sit thou silent, and get thee into darkness, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called, The lady of kingdoms..... The followers of the harlot are ashamed to show their face,
...she's no longer called the lady of kingdoms....she is no longer the religion of many.

And thou saidst, I shall be a lady for ever: so that thou didst not lay these things to thy heart, neither didst remember the latter end of it.

Islam/Mecca is haughty, she thought she would remain a mistress forever, she ignorant and never thought her destruction would come.

Therefore hear now this, thou that art given to pleasures, that dwellest carelessly, that sayest in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me; I shall not sit as a widow, neither shall I know the loss of children:

....thou that art given to pleasures,...a slave to pleasure,...sex slaves, child brides, rape, the Koran sanctions the pimping out of their women.

...that dwellest carelessly....careless, she never thought her occupation would be disturbed or interrupted.

that sayest in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me; I shall not sit as a widow, neither shall I know the loss of children:

They believed there was no other religion besides her, she never thought she would remain desolate and experience the loss of her children/followers.

Rev. 18:7 I sit as a queen, and shall see no sorrow.
But these two things shall come to thee in a moment in one day, the loss of children, and widowhood: they shall come upon thee in their perfection for the multitude of thy sorceries, and for the great abundance of thine enchantments.

This may refer to the harlot (Mecca) being burned with fire. In a day she becomes desolate and childless....they shall come upon thee in their perfection for the multitude of thy sorceries,
...sorceries/incantations... often associated with whoredom,
...and for the great abundance of thine enchantments. Calling to prayer from the minarets, a charmer, a spell.

As you read the rest of the chapter, just keep the evils of Islam in mind....

For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness: (EVIL) thou hast said, None seeth me. Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee; (Koran, Hadiths, have perverted Islam..... and thou hast said in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me.
Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to put it off: and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, which thou shalt not know.

Stand now with thine enchantments, and with the multitude of thy sorceries, wherein thou hast laboured from thy youth; if so be thou shalt be able to profit, if so be thou mayest prevail.
Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators, stand up, and save thee from these things that shall come upon thee.
Mecca and/or Medina get nuked....

Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it.

Thus shall they be unto thee with whom thou hast laboured, even thy merchants, from thy youth: they shall wander every one to his quarter; none shall save thee.

I know the Beast and False Prophet will not be deceiving the world from Mecca. It will be from Jerusalem. However I have long believed that doctrine of the Beast and False Prophet will be Islam - except the Beast will claim to be Allah in person.

 

[iamlamad]

99.9% of Revelation has been and gone. Everyone likes to read it as future doom and gloom.

Every generation since it was written there have been 'end times experts' predicting the end was nigh.

Jesus came. Jesus conquered.

99.9999% of the christian world would disagree with you on that! So would John, the Author.