Revelation is in Code

[Marilyn C]

Thank you for clearing that up.

You wrote, 'revelation is not written in code for man to decipher'. This is true, in the sense that only God can decipher its' meanings.

Hi DreamerOfTheheart,

God has given us His word and He interprets it for us. The two witnesses, olive trees, lampstands were sent of God because they witnessed some things of Christ. Very clear. Christ is the centre of God`s word and purposes, and He would have the two witnesses witness of Him - His death, resurrection and ascension, to Israel to reveal who Jesus is - their Messiah, the Saviour and Lord.

I find that you do not want to discuss scripture but give long comments of your own thoughts. Thus I will leave our conversation there.

Marilyn.

 

[Dr. D Bunker]

bye

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

Hi DreamerOfTheheart,

God has given us His word and He interprets it for us. The two witnesses, olive trees, lampstands were sent of God because they witnessed some things of Christ. Very clear. Christ is the centre of God`s word and purposes, and He would have the two witnesses witness of Him - His death, resurrection and ascension, to Israel to reveal who Jesus is - their Messiah, the Saviour and Lord.

I find that you do not want to discuss scripture but give long comments of your own thoughts. Thus I will leave our conversation there.

Marilyn.

*shrug*

Not my thoughts, mostly. Nor motives.

Israel sees the two olive trees as the two messiahs. The Orthodox do anyway. They are correct, as this is what they are called. But, they are not correct if they think they are Moses and Elijah, which they do not think. Some ancient Jewish tradition did predict both Moses and Elijah would come. They do expect Elijah to come with the Messiah.

The 'Jerusalem' spoken of in Revelation 11 is not literal, physical Jerusalem.

It would be interesting to see how 'what people expect' might be used for and against them. Jew & gentile, alike.

Israel is expecting the messiah. As Zechariah calls the 'two witnesses'. Many gentiles are expecting the messiah to Israel to be the anti-christ.

That would not be in the plans. Quite the reverse.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

Marilyn is the nicest most humble person. I'm surprised she's still discussing things with you. Look at what you said to her. I haven't seen this level of arrogance on a forum is 20 years!

Arrogance has nothing to do with lying.
____________________________________________
how you believe you are more approved then I am.,

God has not told humankind every mystery under Heaven, as you seem to be trying to claim, I know the answers to these questions,

You ripped that response off, not including the context. It must have been clear to you I was not claiming to know everything under Heaven. So, you ripped it off, to be dishonest, and murder my words, to win your argument.

I claimed to know the answers to the specific questions I asked her.

She appeared to be making claims to know everything under Heaven. If I assumed this was impossible, my response would have been rude. I was not making such an assumption. She might know everything under Heaven, as far as I know.

I was not sure if she was arguing semantics, or arguing that Revelation was not in code, because she understood it all.

I was merely being blunt, to the point.

I forewent most pleasantries and flattery.

She could have misunderstood it, too. For all I know. She did not seem to.

 

[Dr. D Bunker]

bye

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

No dishonesty on my part, you wrote it. Just arrogance on yours.

Grabbing the quote, you not only snipped my comment off, you put together other comments many words apart to make your ludicrous claim.

What I stated:

That said, I stated what I stated. What then do the two candlesticks who stand before the Lord mean? Who are they? How do you know?

What is Babylon?

What is the stars falling from the sky as if a scroll or book being closed?

Who, or what, is the Beast, and what is the head of the Beast which as if 'died by the sword', but is as if resurrected and lives again?

These are codes. Metaphors.

Your statement from Ephesians has no relation to this.

God has not told humankind every mystery under Heaven, as you seem to be trying to claim.

What is Ezekiel's wheels? What does that represent?

I know the answers to these questions, but there is plenty I do not know.

You claimed I stated:

God has not told humankind every mystery under Heaven, as you seem to be trying to claim, I know the answers to these questions

You really had to cut and snip to make me say what you wanted me to say.

You snipped out the actual questions I asked her, and cut off the sentence I responded to her with, putting them together to have me say something quite the opposite of what I was saying.

Why? Besides the 'strawman argument'.

Whatever the case, I do not care.

If she took me rudely, I apologize.

If you have something to respond on topic, maybe I will respond. Probably not.


... footnote... looking back on this thread, I see that my response was completely inline with many responses here. Including your interactions between 'lost4words' and your own self.

Whatever the case! Please do not post on such things more here, you should stay on topic.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

Oh, I do! In fact, Hermeneutics is one of my areas of study ... and has been for a long time.



...the thing is, I'm thinking that there really is no single person, including myself, and including you as well, who has ALL of the necessary insights to understand the book of Daniel, Revelation, or the minor prophets, in a comprehensive manner. Sure, some of us may very well have a few details correct about this or that prophetic passage, but none of us should be hitting each other over the head in asserting the meaning of prophecy. It has been given to us encased in many metaphorical terms so none of us can afford to be dogmatic about it all.

'Hermeneutics'... looking up...

'the branch of knowledge that deals with interpretation, especially of the Bible or literary texts.'

Yes sir, definitely is something I love, as well, and have been also doing it for a long time.

Poetry, books, cinema... people and what they have to say and do. The world, things that happen. I read code for a living. [Not elaborating, for anonymity purposes.]

And, no, I do not know everything, in Daniel, Revelation, minor prophets. Nor much of end times prophecy. There are just over a handful of matters I feel really confident on.

I feel confident on the general nature of the Beast, and the head that was killed, but as if alive. But, not sure on what the full seven heads are, either. Much less the other attributes.

I have barely approached the end parts of Daniel. I puzzle over it, but it is obtuse.

Not entirely sure on the 'feet of iron and mixed with clay' is, either. Iron, likely, has to do with Rome. The clay? And, how so, with Rome, as really Germany took over. Albeit, as Voltaire pointed out, the 'holy roman empire was neither holy, nor roman, nor an empire'.

Not sure on the first woe. Not sure on the meaning of the 'sky rolling up like a scroll', though I generally take this to pointing out the advancements in astronomy, since Copernicus.

No clue on the seven seals and the book that has to be opened. Generally, take that as having happened in Heaven.

Long ago.

Not sure on the letters to the seven angels. These seven angels also seem to the the 'seven spirits of God', so that is an unusual set of letters to give them.

Zechariah, chapters 3 and 4, I feel pretty confident on.

But, would note, that the contrast between those two chapters and chapter eleven, of Revelation, is very odd. Two lampstands? There was one in Zechariah. For instance. There is some interesting 'duality', 'singularity', metaphors there, already. Which Revelation 11 appears to expand on.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

I don't think I will waste my time trying to decipher the book of revelation. For me it would be a waste of time. Maybe not for you though. Sure.

That said, the book of revelation does address some important issues, like letters to the churches which describe different blessings from God one might achieve, etc. Also it describes heaven and the lake of fire. Some of it is plain to read and not vision language. So I just stick with the portions that need no interpretation. But that's me.

Have fun deciphering

I would suggest the overcomer's post I made, in regards to those blessings.

To The Overcomers: The Ones w Ears to Hear


If one wishes to try and understand the meanings behind Revelation, it is good to perform your homework, and examine the major (and minor) theories on it. But, ultimately, you can not know for sure, without confirmation and leading of the Spirit. This is not true on all things.

I do not know much about what many things in Revelation states, only a few items.

The gospels are also in 'code', or 'parable', and that 'deciphering' is a routine, daily activity any believer applies. As the seed grows, various meanings and applications are used everyday, showing new insight into it.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

Interpretation. All end times experts on here have 'their' own interpretation on what Revelation means.

Nobody can be sure on what any interpretation is correct, except that God confirms it for them.

There are some exceptions to this rule. Such as with the statue of Nebuchadnezzar, which is pretty inarguable, except for the meaning of the feet of that statue.

'Interpretation', 'theory', 'deciphering', whatever. All the same thing.

There is not a whole lot in Revelation I know what it means.

Much I do not ask. Some I do.

 

[Dr. D Bunker]

bye

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

People have said to me that they know they're right because they have the holy spirit and the holy spirit wouldn't lie to them. We have to confirm things ourselves. The great statue is one example. People have been taught the sequence of kingdoms is Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome, but that is easily debunked by Isaiah and Jeremiah's prophecy.

The feet of the statue isn't difficult. The word ARAB/mixed is pretty direct as to who the iron and clay represents. Daniel describes the iron and clay well and Rome and the EU like most people interpret it just doesn't fit whatsoever.

If someone says 'the Spirit confirmed it for them', they are stating, effectively, "God told me so". I do not recall anyone else saying this, and God has only confirmed very few things with me on end times prophecy. [I do see, often, people claiming 'God said this', effectively, by their manner and claiming 'the bible says it', or 'the word of God says it'.]

I do not state what God has confirmed for me, in regards to end times prophecy, but very rarely. Even then, I use exegesis to make my argument.

Good exegesis.

There is good exegesis, which is wrong.

I do view "Moses & Elijah as the two witnesses" as good exegesis which is wrong. Zechariah 3 & 4 disprove this, on very careful examination. There is a lot of evidence for it, but the evidence against it is authoritative. However, I do not easily cite that evidence. Because it is very difficult material. I believed "Moses & Elijah as the two witnesses" for about two decades. I was wrong.

"Jerusalem as Babylon" is good exegesis, which is wrong. There is good evidence for it, but it is incorrect. Babylon, however, is tied to 'spiritual Jerusalem'. That is the key there. But, difficult argument to make.


Claiming that the statue of Daniel is not Babylon/Mede-Persia/Greece/Rome is a very bold argument, and I do not think this is true. The evidence for this is strong. You would have to cite, in specifics, your argument from Jeremiah & Isaiah. I am highly skeptical, but am not so bold as to say 'God has confirmed that for me'. I go by the evidence that has been used for it.

You could be correct. I do not know. I am unaware of that evidence you cite, and you do not cite specifics.

I do not claim to know what the feet represent.


I would like to know your evidence for this.

 

[Dr. D Bunker]

bye

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

Read this post, #131..

Anti-Christ Location and Mystery Babylon?

If you want I can explain the iron and clay more.

Thanks, I will research this further. So, why is it called 'mede-persia'? Brief double check, mede is considering 'iranian', which is 'persia'. Is this the primary difference you are hitting at?

This means that the Mede's are the arms of silver, and the Persian's that thighs of bronze, and Greeks the legs of iron.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

DreamerOfTheHeart said: ↑
Depends on my definition of 'the Christian religious establishment'. I certainly there mean the evil parts of it.

The same sort of wide reaching metaphors, we use all the time, in ordinary speech. It is certainly used in Revelation, such as with 'the Beast' -- 'the Beast' is related to the 'statue of Nebuchadnezzar', and if we track it back to the kingdoms that followed Rome, we would certainly be stuck looking right at modern 'Western Civilization'. Especially the 'superpowers' therein. Not everything is 'of the Beast', just because it is American, or British, or what have you.

Certainly, not even every politician, every soldier, every cop, nor anything like that.

Rome was part of 'the Beast' ('five have fallen, one is'), but so was Israel, where Jesus ministered, and the Apostles came from. Peter worked from, not 'Babylon', but 'Rome', which 'Babylon' was code for.

Paul was a Roman citizen.

The person with the greatest faith Jesus came across was a Centurion. Which in our modern form, would be a mixture between a police officer and a soldier officer.

So, while I appreciate your 'liking' of my post, you should remember to treat metaphor carefully. As is the topic of the post.

2PhiloVoid said: ↑
Oh, I do! In fact, Hermeneutics is one of my areas of study ... and has been for a long time.

'Hermeneutics'... looking up...

.

Sounds good to me..............

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[Dr. D Bunker]

bye

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

People think in terms of Medo-Persia because of Daniel 8's ram with two horns. One smaller horn comes up first, (Medes) the taller horn comes up afterwards, (Persians). THEN they become the Ram or the thighs of Bronze.

Daniel 8:3 explains the inferior kingdom.
I was by the river of Ulai. Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had [two] horns: and the [two] horns [were] high; but one [was] higher than the other, and the higher came up last. I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither [was there any] that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

The higher horn that came up last is the Persian Empire. The other horn, the one that was not as high (smaller/inferior) that came up first is the Medes. The two eventually merged into the ram or the Persian Empire. This means that the Medes are the smaller kingdom that emerged first as the inferior kingdom of Daniel 2.

The Medes were superior warriors compared to the Persians. The Persians were better engineers and nation builders than the Medes. Cyrus married Darius' sister. (some say his cousin) They were confederate. But Darius, as Daniel, Isaiah and Jeremiah confirm, is the one who went into battle as it was the custom of that day for the elder to be first in battle. Darius did have some help from Persian troops but mostly in the form of logistics. The Median kingdom occupied Babylon for only a few years (about 6) before the Persian's under Cyrus had what I would call a family coup, where only about 100 people died to take over the kingdom. Then they combined their efforts to rule the kingdom. Darius took charge of a Northern province, and Cyrus the southern part.

Okay, wait, so the first explanation sounds good, and apologies for my ignorance here. (My focus had been primarily on other matters, in my research on eschatology, over the past few decades. Bizarrely, I suppose.)

So, the medes were *not* already consolidated with the persians when Babylon was taken?

The merger happened *after* Babylon was conquered?

The initial ram/horns vision/dream you explained well fits this scenario.


Looking it up, again, I see there are good references for this, which, otherwise I may get a book (references who refer to the medes and persians as two separate components following the Babylonian head).

Usually had come across the older view, probably from reading the old texts (protestant, catholic, orthodox).

 

[Dr. D Bunker]

bye

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

They were 'somewhat' confederate but the two didn't merge into the ram until after Darius conquered Babylon. The Median kingdom was to the north and west of the Persian kingdom.

The reason secular history ascribes the taking of Babylon to Cyrus is because there's little to no secular history on Darius. The bible is the historical authority on him and secularist don't accept the bible as a historically valid book.

The sequence of kingdom's I believe in goes back to before the time of Josephus. (Babylon, Medes, Persians, Greeks) Though the iron and clay back then was thought to be the Selucid's. I don't know who first added Rome to the mix but it was 'added' because of the Protestant's unfavorable opinion of Rome. I think they were convinced that since Rome crucified Christ, persecuted people, destroyed Jerusalem and the temple, and then continued with persecutions during the inquisition etc., they believed Rome would also emerge as the end-time 'beast'.

I think their conclusion that Rome was the legs of iron and then worked their way up the statue.

There's NO WAY that the iron and clay describes the Romans or Europeans. First, in every resource I have whether in book form or on-line, the word MIXED or MINGLED implies an Arab or Arabia. And the word Arab in the OT is the word 'arab' which is the word 'mixed'.

There're very few words that describe the gold, silver, brass, and iron, but well over 100 words that describe the iron and clay, so we should get a pretty good picture of what the people of iron and clay are like.

Most people would like you to believe these toes represent Rome and the European Union or the UN, but that just can't be.

"And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise."

The iron and clay breaks into pieces, subdues all things, (Islam has subdued every religion in the Arab world) bruises, is divided, partly strong and partly broken, not cleaved to one another, and mixed with the seed of men.

How can this apply to today's Rome, Italy, the EU, or the UN? Those are all united empires and organizations.

The description of the iron and clay just doesn't fit Rome, the EU, or the UN, but is certainly true of Arab Islamic people, their countries, and certainly true about the religion of Islam. Arab/Muslim countries throughout the Mid-East Region have always been divided, especially divided are the Sunni and Shia sects of Islam.

The Arab tribes have also divided themselves into hundreds of different tribes and clans and are heavily married into their extended family. (mixed with the seed of men) In Northern Africa alone there are over 250 different Arabic tribes and clans. Iraq also has well over 200. Their history, and especially today's world, proves they are divided and among the most intermarried people in the world. They are the people of iron and clay, NOT the Romans or Europeans!

The Arabs and Muslim's have subdued nearly every religion in the region.

Thank you, I will think on, and research more.


I do not view, though, "Rome", "the EU", "the UN", or really, ultimately - anywhere - as "the problem".

The problems on earth are many, and the worst of them is death. These are not problems humankind are going to solve on their own.


Why, might I ask, why have you needed to know these specifics? Are you doing work with Muslim nations? Or, with one of these other places, people seem bothered about?


For me, specifics, on this, are not very necessary. What is important on the statue of Daniel, is that the rock is 'not carved by human hands'. Emphasis on human.

To try and explain this to people is very difficult. Because it is like trying to explain matters of Japan, to someone who has never been there. The language is different, and lacking here. Bridges of communication have to be made.

I have to use metaphors to talk about it.

For instance, if someone is in the desert, and have run out of water, they may appear as a complete fool who is certainly going to die, if they just stop where they are and wait for water to come to them from the sky.

But, not if they are a downed pilot with gps location sent and satellite communication. Where their base, which is very real, has radioed back to them to 'sit tight' and wait for them to be picked up.

If they are not a downed pilot, there is no military base, they do not have radio communication established, and they have not seen this sort of routine performed before... then they are in trouble. They are crazy.

But, if they are, then they are right to 'sit tight and wait'.

 

[Dr. D Bunker]

bye

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

My problem with this is that evangelicals place most of the end-time evils upon Christians and the Church. They say the Pope is going to unite the world's religions, and many say the harlot of Babylon is "the apostate church." They claim the 'apostasy' of 2 Thes. 2 is about heretical Christians. They are demonizing the very church they are members of.

There's the problem. It's not the Church, it's ISLAM!

Hahaha.

My view of problems is that they are problems to be solved. People do the best they can, given the information they have, in the circumstances they find themselves in.

Approval and condemnation, carrot and stick.

End goal is very long term. And, good, the best interests, of everyone.

Not a soldier, not a spy. I am read on the problems there, and support intelligence and military operations. Not that this is very meaningful. I have tried reasoning with Islamists, and there really is no reasoning ground to be had.

Really, without a major action from 'up there', I do not have confidence that there will be meaningful change. I have some confidence in difficult, but effective, containment.