Revelation in chart form

Douggg · Feb 18, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Since the 70th week of Daniel occurred during the first century, based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Acts 10:38, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and Galatians 1:14-18, it will not happen "pre-70th week".

It was the time the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people, before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles.

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pre-70th shmita cycle, as it is on the shmita cycle that Moses set the requirement for the confirming of the Mt. Sinai covenant for 7 years, that God gave the land of Israel to the children of Israel as theirs forever, of all future leaders of Israel, on the feast of tabernacles. Go to Zechariah 14:16-20, its going to be done during millennium as well..

The next shmita year is September 2021-22. Then 2028 -29. If the fulfillment happens to land on those years - as far as when the 7 years begin. Will be able to tell more as those times approach - the EU will have to have formed into the ten leader form of government before then.

BABerean2 · Feb 18, 2018

Douggg said:
pre-70th shmita cycle, as it is on the shmita cycle that Moses set the requirement for the confirming of the Mt. Sinai covenant for 7 years, that God gave the land of Israel to the children of Israel as theirs forever, of all future leaders of Israel, on the feast of tabernacles. Go to Zechariah 14:16-20, its going to be done during millennium as well..

Luk 24:25 Then He said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!

Luk 24:26 Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?"

Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

Heb_7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

You may not know that the Sinai Covenant is now "obsolete", being fulfilled to the letter by Jesus Christ.

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Douggg · Feb 18, 2018

BABerean2 said:
You may not know that the Sinai Covenant is now "obsolete", being fulfilled to the letter by Jesus Christ.

God's promises that He made to the children of Israel that the land belongs to them forever was never made obsolete. So you will know, the feast of tabernacles done on the shmita cycle commemorating that promise will be done during the millennium and is in Zechariah 14:16-20.

God's promise regarding the land is also found in Ezekiel 37.

Truth7t7 · Feb 18, 2018

Marvin Knox said:
Then we would be wasting each other's time to continue.

If you don't believe a direct statement about the coming 1000 year kingdom - you will not believe a doctrine (the pretrib rapture) which requires you to look at several scriptures and concepts in a combined and systematic way to understand.

That isn't what the scriptures teach.

It's the revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must take place.

It is not the obscurance of Jesus Christ which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants the things which will not really take place.

Marv were on the pre-tribulation rapture that you desired to discuss, putting C.I. Scofield aside, "Here I Am Marv"

Which scripture below do you believe references the pre-trib rapture?

I'm trying to establish the "common" scripture used by pre-tribbers to start discussion.

You still have not answered the direct question, why?

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52KJV
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

seventysevens · Feb 18, 2018

with all the times you said there is no pre-trib rapture - and now you want to talk about it ?

Hmmm................

Truth7t7 said:
Marv were on the pre-tribulation rapture that you desired to discuss, putting C.I. Scofield aside, "Here I Am Marv"

Which scripture below do you believe references the pre-trib rapture?

I'm trying to establish the "common" scripture used by pre-tribbers to start discussion.

You still have not answered the direct question, why?

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52KJV
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

seventysevens · Feb 18, 2018

Truth7t7 said:
I talked to a Baptist pastor for 1 hr+ concerning this teaching, it's foundation, scriptural reference. At the conclusion he openly stated "He Agreed" the pre-tribulation rapture isn't found in scripture, as he stated he couldn't openly teach this because his provided home, income, and pension, were tied to the Baptist Denomination, and doing so would see him looking for new employment.

Sadly the case in today's church extremely rare to find any pastor that will teach on bible prophecy for that very reason -money- those who pay the salaries do not want prophecy taught at all - saying it is too controversial and that is what they steer away from - Churches in America are more focused on raising money -building bigger buildings to house larger crowds and focus on self -help -resulting in less and less teaching on Jesus and what he did for us.
If you focus on what was being taught by the apostles including the shmita cycles and Gods Holy Days - Feast Days you will really learn truth

BABerean2 · Feb 19, 2018

Douggg said:
God's promises that He made to the children of Israel that the land belongs to them forever was never made obsolete. So you will know, the feast of tabernacles done on the shmita cycle commemorating that promise will be done during the millennium and is in Zechariah 14:16-20.

God's promise regarding the land is also found in Ezekiel 37.

What did Paul say below about those who go back to the bondage of the Old Covenant days, months, times, and years?

Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Who now owns the land, based on the words of Christ?

Mat 21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

Mat 21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

Mat 21:39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

Mat 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

Mat 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

In the passage above Christ reveals that the "son" is the "heir" to the land, instead of those who reject the "chief cornerstone".
Therefore the land promise is eternal, because He paid for the land with His blood at Calvary.

He also said that the kingdom would be taken from those who reject the "chief cornerstone" and it would be given to another nation who accepts the "chief cornerstone" and brings forth fruit.

Peter describes that "holy" nation, which accepted the "chief cornerstone", in 1 Peter 2:4-10.

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

In the passage above, those who do not accept God's Son have nothing.

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Douggg · Feb 19, 2018

BABerean2 said:
What did Paul say below about those who go back to the bondage of the Old Covenant days, months, times, and years?

Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Who now owns the land, based on the words of Christ?

Mat 21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

Mat 21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

Mat 21:39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

Mat 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

Mat 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

In the passage above Christ reveals that the "son" is the "heir" to the land, instead of those who reject the "chief cornerstone".
Therefore the land promise is eternal, because He paid for the land with His blood at Calvary.

He also said that the kingdom would be taken from those who reject the "chief cornerstone" and it would be given to another nation who accepts the "chief cornerstone" and brings forth fruit.

Peter describes that "holy" nation, which accepted the "chief cornerstone", in 1 Peter 2:4-10.

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

In the passage above, those who do not accept God's Son have nothing.

.

BAB2, be a berean. Figure it out. Here is what it says In Zechariah 14:

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

BABerean2 · Feb 19, 2018

Douggg said:
In Zechariah 14:

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

You have posted the shadow of what is fulfilled in the New Covenant of Christ.

He is the tabernacle.
He said so in His own words.

The Lord's Supper celebrated by Christians all over the world will one day be different when we sit down and enjoy it with Him in the New Heavens and the New Earth.

.

Douggg · Feb 19, 2018

BABerean2 said:
You have posted the shadow of what is fulfilled in the New Covenant of Christ.

He is the tabernacle.
He said so in His own words.

The Lord's Supper celebrated by Christians all over the world will one day be different when we sit down and enjoy it with Him in the New Heavens and the New Earth.

.

I don't see indication that this is a shadow. Read verse 17-19. Be a berean, figure it out.

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

BABerean2 · Feb 19, 2018

Douggg said:
I don't see indication that this is a shadow. Read verse 17-19. Be a berean, figure it out.

I already have, because Christ is our guide to what is found in the Old Testament.

Read Luke 24:25-27, if you still do not understand it.

On the road to Emaus He said the whole Old Testament is about Him.

Do you deny that He is the New Covenant "tabernacle"?

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Choose Wisely · Feb 19, 2018

Truth7t7 said:
1. Do you see the scripture presented below as being the same event?

2. Does this scripture represent your pre-tribulation rapture?

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52KJV
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The two scriptures are not the same event. 1 Thes 4 is the pretribulation rapture. 1 Cor 15 is the gathering harvest seen in Matt 24 and the end of Rev 14.

Bottom line is...........in such an hour as you think not........the son of man cometh.

BABerean2 · Feb 19, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
The two scriptures are not the same event. 1 Thes 4 is the pretribulation rapture. 1 Cor 15 is the gathering harvest seen in Matt 24 and the end of Rev 14.

The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove that it is the same event, which occurs on the day of the Lord, when He comes as a thief.

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Truth7t7 · Feb 19, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
The two scriptures are not the same event. 1 Thes 4 is the pretribulation rapture. 1 Cor 15 is the gathering harvest seen in Matt 24 and the end of Rev 14.

Bottom line is...........in such an hour as you think not........the son of man cometh.

Thanks for your response, waiting for Marv to respond.

Douggg · Feb 19, 2018

BABerean2 said:
I already have, because Christ is our guide to what is found in the Old Testament.

Read Luke 24:25-27, if you still do not understand it.

On the road to Emaus He said the whole Old Testament is about Him.

Do you deny that He is the New Covenant "tabernacle"?

The feast of tabernacles is not talking about the temple. The tabernacles are temporary little tent like shacks. So, no you have not addressed the feast of tabernacles in Zechariah 14. Are you reading the text of what is going to happen? Here is Zechariah 14 again...

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Choose Wisely · Feb 19, 2018

BABerean2 said:
The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove that it is the same event, which occurs on the day of the Lord, when He comes as a thief.

.

1 Thes 5
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

If your response was correct it would say.........But of the TIME AND SEASON brethren. Notice the plural. That means more than one.

Try keeping things in context. It will make things easier to understand.

BABerean2 · Feb 19, 2018

Do you understand that the Greek does not use the "s" in the plural manner that you are depending on to make your doctrine work?

(KJV+) ButG1161 ofG4012 theG3588 timesG5550 andG2532 theG3588 seasons,G2540 brethren,G80 ye haveG2192 noG3756 needG5532 that I writeG1125 unto you.G5213

G5550
χρόνος
chronos
khron'-os
Of uncertain derivation; a space of time (in genitive case, and thus properly distinguished from G2540, which designates a fixed or special occasion; and from G165, which denotes a particular period) or interval; by extension an individual opportunity; by implication delay: - + years old, season, space, (X often-) time (-s), (a) while.
Total KJV occurrences: 53

G2540
καιρός
kairos
kahee-ros'
Of uncertain affinity; an occasion, that is, set or proper time: - X always, opportunity, (convenient, due) season, (due, short, while) time, a while. Compare G5550.
Total KJV occurrences: 86

In the explanation of the Greek words above we normally find the singular, instead of the plural.

Therefore, your explanation falls apart in the original Greek text.

.

Choose Wisely · Feb 19, 2018

Truth7t7 said:
Thanks for your response, waiting for Marv to respond.

That's cool. It always puzzles me when someone does not believe in the pretribulation rapture. Jesus clearly says that you will not know when He is coming. He tells you He is coming right after the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven, and yet he says that the GOODMAN will not know when he is coming. Sounds impossible..........unless..........there is more than one coming of the son of man.

Luke 17
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

What do you make of this verse in Luke 17, Truth7t7?

BABerean2 · Feb 19, 2018

Douggg said:
The tabernacles are temporary little tent like shacks.

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

There are two different examples of a tabernacle in the New Covenant.

One is Christ, and the other is Christians.

My flesh body is a "temporary little tent like shack", at this time.

It does not look as good as it did when it was 20 years old.

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Choose Wisely · Feb 19, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Do you understand that the Greek does not use the "s" in the plural manner that you are depending on to make your doctrine work?

(KJV+) ButG1161 ofG4012 theG3588 timesG5550 andG2532 theG3588 seasons,G2540 brethren,G80 ye haveG2192 noG3756 needG5532 that I writeG1125 unto you.G5213

G5550
χρόνος
chronos
khron'-os
Of uncertain derivation; a space of time (in genitive case, and thus properly distinguished from G2540, which designates a fixed or special occasion; and from G165, which denotes a particular period) or interval; by extension an individual opportunity; by implication delay: - + years old, season, space, (X often-) time (-s), (a) while.
Total KJV occurrences: 53

G2540
καιρός
kairos
kahee-ros'
Of uncertain affinity; an occasion, that is, set or proper time: - X always, opportunity, (convenient, due) season, (due, short, while) time, a while. Compare G5550.
Total KJV occurrences: 86

In the explanation of the Greek words above we normally find the singular, instead of the plural.

Therefore, your explanation falls apart in the original Greek text.

.

If you can convince all these expert translators that they have no clue what they are doing and that you know far more than them.......that would be a start. Then if you could get them to change their translations in the Bible, you might have an argument.

Until then.......I'll go with the experts.....

Revelation in chart form

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