Revelation in chart form

Oldmantook said:

I specifically asked you to disprove my claims that Scofield was not convicted of forgery, did not abandon his family and did not possess a doctorate. I'm still waiting.

Click to expand...

Quasar92 said:

(David Dixon wrote: He is depicted as a beast with 7 heads, 10 horns with 10 crowns and blasphemous names written on them; I am not entirely certain that a great deal can be derived from the image with any degree of certainty or accuracy so instead I propose to look at the more clear things we do get directly out of the scriptures.

Click to expand...

Oldmantook said:

I won't do your homework for you Marvin. I specifically asked you to disprove my claims that Scofield was not convicted of forgery, did not abandon his family and did not possess a doctorate. I'm still waiting.

Click to expand...

Oldmantook said:

You asked me to prove it so may I presume you did not believe me?

Click to expand...

Oldmantook said:

I never wrote that you vouched for his character, but you never agreed with me either. So exactly, what is your position of Scofield's integrity or lack thereof, based on your own research?

Click to expand...

Oldmantook said:

No lies here. Did you not write your presumption stating "likely prejudice" and "unreliability of the internet? Really Marvin, is that your whole argument??

Click to expand...

Oldmantook said:

If it really gives your pause as you so claim, what exactly have you discovered that disproves my claims regarding Scofield then?

Click to expand...

Oldmantook said:

Feel free to cease discussing anytime Marvin, especially if you decline to show me where I'm wrong regarding Scofield's poor character, lest we keep going round in circles which neither you or I care for.

Click to expand...

Oldmantook said:

Did you not read Rev 16:15-16? It states Jesus is coming as a thief. Then comes Armageddon. Do you choose to simply ignore the proximity of Jesus' coming and the occurrence of Armageddon. What do you think it means as you have curiously not offered any interpretation of your own?

Click to expand...

Quasar92 said:

Your above post fails to address the fact that Israel has NEVER accepted the New Covenant,

Click to expand...

Quasar92 said:

No matter how loud you scream, dance and holler, the Church IS NOT Israel and never will be, as my last post of many has proven to you, in #43! Even more so, the Scripture DO NOT SAY SO, anywhere.


Quasar92

Click to expand...

Quasar92 said:

Your disdain for a highly esteemed man of God is a mark of your character. IMO, it is contemptible of an honorable theologian, author and lecturer in the service for the Lord, Jesus Christ.


Quasar92

Click to expand...

Quasar92 said:

The amazing works by Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum in his complete book of Revelation in chart form @:

[In Adobe PDF] http://www.arielm.org/outlines/o-rev-charts.pdf

About Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum:

Fruchtenbaum was born in 1943 in Siberia, Russia. The family escaped to Germany in 1947 after his father had been falsely accused of being a Nazi spy. At age 13, Fruchtenbaum came to believe that Jesus was the Messiah. His father opposed this and forbade him to read the Bible, attend meetings, or otherwise meet with Messianic Jews. The family moved to Los Angeles in 1958.

After being forced to leave the family home, in 1962 he began college education at Shelton College in New Jersey. He moved to Cedarville College in Ohio, where he graduated with a BA degree in Hebrew and Greek in 1966. He then moved to Israel, where he studied archeology, ancient history, historical geography, and Hebrew at the American Institute of Holy Land Studies and the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. During this time, he witnessed the Six Day War in 1967.

Later that year, Fruchtenbaum returned to the U.S. and entered Dallas Theological Seminary to continue his studies in Hebrew and the Old Testament. He also began working as a missionary with American Board of Missions to the Jews (ABMJ; today, Chosen People Ministries). Fruchtenbaum was married in 1968 to Mary Ann Morrow, a graduate of Gordon College, Massachusetts. Three years later (1971), he graduated with a Master of Theology degree from Dallas. He and his wife then moved to Israel and settled in Jerusalem to work with the local church and to train young Israeli Jewish believers for Christian service. They left Israel in 1973.

During the two years following, Fruchtenbaum served as a minister and as editor of "The Chosen People," a monthly publication . This was with ABMJ in New Jersey. Then in 1976 he joined the staff of The Christian Jew Foundation as associate director.

Fruchtenbaum originally was of the view that Jewish converts should attempt to integrate with local Gentile congregations, but later came to regard separate Jewish congregations as valid.[1]

At this time he struggled with the issue of discipleship and perceived a need for biblical and theological training for Jewish Messianic believers. This was discussed with other leaders and this turned into the ideas for Ariel Ministries. Late 1977, Ariel Ministries was established. Fruchtenbaum is the founding director of Ariel Ministries and continues in this role and as a speaker at conferences.

He travels internationally throughout Europe, Israel and the United States. This has given him a broad knowledge of the messianic movement. He has completed his doctoral dissertation, Israelology: The Missing Link in Systematic Theology at New York University in 1989. Fruchtenbaum has published a number of books.

Recommended Reading:

Footsteps of the Messiah
by Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum

Summary: Using the Book of Revelation as an end time road map, Dr. Fruchtenbaum weaves the prophetic writings of the Hebrew Scriptures and Messiah's teachings to reveal God's plan for the future of Israel and the world. Dr. Fruchtenbaum gathers the many pieces of the prophetic puzzle and places them in sequential order with the result summed up by Dr. Charles Ryrie in his foreword: "Those who read this book cannot help but be instructed and stimulated by his work."

Footsteps is detailed, thorough and scholarly, yet written in a style that the average reader can easily understand. With a wealth of wisdom drawn from his Jewish background and extensive research, the author even tackles the "problem passages" to provide a comprehensive overview of the entire range of prophetic truth. "In a thoroughly biblical, balanced, and clear presentation, Arnold Fruchtenbaum plainly lays out God's plan for the future while avoiding the sensational errors of other prophetic writers. I have relied on this book as a resource for years." Michael Rydelnik, Professor of Jewish Studies Program, Moody Bible Institute

Twenty years of teaching Eschatology since the original writing of this book has given Dr. Fruchtenbaum further reflections on some passages. This updated edition includes five new appendices to the book.



Quasar92

Click to expand...

Quasar92 said:

the Church IS NOT Israel and never will be

Click to expand...

• "This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
• This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:"

• ""Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called uncircumcision by that which is called the circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
• That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the Covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
• But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
• For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
• Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;[/l]
• And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
• And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
• For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
• Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
• And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;"

• "But now hath He obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also He is the mediator of a better Covenant, which was established upon better promises.
• For if that FIRST Covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
• For finding fault with them, He saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a New Covenant with the House of Israel and with the House of Judah:"

Quasar92 said:

Your ducking and dodging the the issues I posted for you to answer with a simple yes or no is NOT going to go away! Your above post fails to address the fact that Israel has NEVER accepted the New Covenant, no matter how hard and long you try remake Scripture into saying what you want it to say. Zech.12:10 and 14:4-5 are beyond the "second chance," but rather, they are the BOTTOM LINE, AFTER Jesus second coming!

Review the following from Zola Levitt Ministries:

Israel and the Church: the Differences
Search for:
by Thomas S. McCall

Dr. Thomas McCall, the Senior Theologian of our ministry, has written many articles for the Levitt Letter. He holds a Th.M. in Old Testament studies and a Th.D. in Semitic languages and Old Testament. He has served as Zola’s co-author, mentor, pastor, and friend for nearly 30 years.

This article appeared originally in the May 1996 Levitt Letter.

Page Contents (skip contents)

• Introduction
• The Church is Israel
• Israel & Church Different
• Church Decided Demise of Israel?
• Israel’s Future Demeans Church’s Glory?

Share This Site
Tell a friend about Zola Levitt Ministries and invite them to our website.

41
Introduction
One of the great theological battlegrounds of orthodox Christianity throughout the centuries has been the nature and character of the Church, especially in relation to its biblical predecessor, Israel. The two major views are that:

1. The Church is a continuation of Israel
2. The Church is completely different from Israel

First View: The Church is Israel
The predominant view has been that the Church is the “new” Israel, a continuation of the concept of Israel which began in the Old Testament. In this view, the Church is the refinement and higher development of the concept of Israel. All of the promises made to Israel in the Scriptures find their fulfillment in the Church. Thus, the prophecies relating to the blessing and restoration of Israel to the Promised Land are “spiritualized” into promises of blessing to the Church. The prophecies of condemnation and judgment, though, are retained literally by the Jewish nation of Israel.

This view is sometimes called Replacement Theology, because the Church is seen to replace Israel in God’s economy. One of the problems with the view, among others, is the continuing existence of the Jewish people, especially with regard to the revival of the new modern state of Israel. If Israel has been condemned to extinction, and there is no divinely ordained future for the Jewish nation, how does one account for the supernatural survival of the Jewish people since the establishment of the Church, for almost 2,000 years against all odds? Furthermore, how does one account for Israel’s resurgence among the family of nations as an independent nation, victorious in several wars and flourishing economically?

Second View: Israel and the Church are Different
The other view, we believe, is clearly taught in the New Testament, but it has been suppressed throughout most of Church history. This view is that the Church is completely different and distinct from Israel, and the two should not be confused. In fact, the Church is an entirely new creation that came into being on the Day of Pentecost after Christ’s resurrection from the dead, and will continue until it is taken to Heaven at the Rapture return of the Lord Eph. 1:9-11). None of the curses or blessings pronounced upon Israel refer directly to the Church. The Church enters into the Abrahamic and New Covenants, for instance, only by divine application, not by original interpretation Matt 26:28).

This leaves all the covenants, promises, and warnings to Israel intact. Israel, the natural Jewish nation, is still Israel. To be sure, Israel has been side-lined during these past 1,900 years of the Diaspora. The Church has taken center stage in the Lord’s affairs as the Gospel has spread throughout the world. Nevertheless, God has carefully preserved the Jewish people, even in unbelief, through every kind of distress and persecution. Sometimes, the professing Church itself (I speak to our shame) has been a cause of these persecutions to the Jews.

Not only has God preserved the Jewish nation, but He has also kept His promise to save a remnant of Israel in every generation. The remnant of Israel in this age are the Jewish believers in Christ who have joined the Gentile believers, and form the Church, the Body of Christ Rom. 11:5). In this respect, then, a part of Israel (the believing remnant) intersects with the Church during the Church Age. But this does not make Israel the Church, or vice versa.

In the future, both God’s warnings and promises to Israel will come to pass. After the Lord is finished with the Church Age, and has taken the Church to Heaven in the Rapture 1 Thess. 4:16-18), God will restore Israel to center stage on the world’s divine theater. First comes the devastating “Time of Jacob’s Trouble” (Jer. 30:7) also known as the Great Tribulation. This is a dreadful period of seven years, which begins relatively lightly during the first half, but intensifies into full focus during the latter half. During this time the world is judged for rejecting Christ, but, more specifically, Israel is judged, purged and prepared through the fiery trials of the Great Tribulation for the Second Coming of the Messiah. This is the bad news.

The good news is that, when Christ does return to the earth at the end of the Tribulation, Israel will be ready, willing, and eager to receive Him, and proclaim, “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord” (Matt. 23:39). As the stumbling of Israel brought blessing to the world at Christ’s First Coming, the reception of Israel to Christ at His Second Advent will be like “life from the dead” (Rom. 11:15). The remnant of Israel which survives the Tribulation (some one-third of the Jewish people who enter the Tribulation), will be saved, and the Lord will establish His kingdom on the same earth and the same capital city, Jerusalem, that rejected Him centuries before. Israel will be the head of the nations, and no longer the tail, and all nations will send representatives to Jerusalem to honor and worship the King of Kings and Lord of Lords (Isa. 2:2-3;Micah 4:1). The Church will return with Christ, and will rule with Him for a thousand years (Rev. 20:1-5). He Himself told His disciples that they would rule over the 12 tribes of Israel in the restoration (Matt. 19:28). Thus, Israel has not been forgotten in God’s plan. While the Jewish nation still has a dark period facing it, there is a glorious finale to Israel’s long history.

How Did the Church Decide the Demise of Israel?
The New Testament Church was very much involved with the vicissitudes of Israel. Jesus is an Israeli, as were all the apostles, and the concerns of Israel, spiritually and politically, were very much a part of their lives. The greatest struggles the early Church had were over the relationship between Israel and the Church, law and grace, and the fellowship between Jewish and Gentile believers in Christ (Galatians). Many of the Jewish believers were not comfortable with the Gentile believers at first; and as time went on and Gentiles began to predominate numerically, the attitudes were reversed. Galatians shows how the Jewish party tried to impose the Mosaic Law on Gentile Christians, and Romans shows how the Gentile party began to “boast against the branches” (Rom. 11:18), resenting the place of Israel in history and theology.

It took some time, perhaps a couple of centuries, but eventually the vast Gentile majority in the Church began to view Israel as a vestigial organ that had outlived its usefulness. In fact, the predominant Christian view was that the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple by the Romans in 70 AD signaled the official and divinely-ordained end of the Jewish nation, never more to be re-instituted as a national entity. The fact that Jerusalem lay in ruins and the Jewish people were scattered over the world was seen as conclusive evidence that God was forever finished with national Israel. If there were any purpose for the existence of the Jewish people, it was to remind the world of the severe judgment of God upon a disobedient people.

If this harsh view of Israel were true, though, what of the promises of God to Israel in the Old Testament? For those who claimed to believe in the entire Bible as the Word of God, this was a great problem. How could a faithful God not keep His promises to His ancient people? To deal with this took extraordinary theological dexterity and alchemy. The theologians had to propose that Israel in the Scriptures did not really mean Israel, especially when it came to the promises of eternal blessing. Instead, Israel meant something else, something that came to be known in the New Testament as the Church. The Church became the new Israel, and through this remarkable transformation, wherever blessing is promised to Israel in the Old Testament, it was interpreted to mean the Church. This is Replacement Theology, in which the Church has become Israel.

Replacement Theology was already around before the end of the First Century, but did not become the official position of professing Christian leadership until Augustine popularized the concept, primarily in THE CITY OF GOD, in the latter part of the Fourth Century. Augustine actually states that he was previously a Chiliast, meaning that he was a believer in the thousand-year reign of Christ on the earth after His return. This is the same as our current description of Premillennialism. However, he had come to the conclusion that this view was “carnal,” and had adopted the view that the reign of Christ would be something more “spiritual,” and would actually occur during the Church Age. Such a view necessitated the extinction of Israel, and the cancellation of all promises God made to the Jewish nation. These promises of blessing would now be fulfilled within the framework of the Church.

This view, which had been latent in Christendom, now flourished throughout the Byzantine world. From this point on, the theological legs were cut out from under Israel, and the predominant Christian theology was that there was no future for Israel. Replacement Theology has been the rule that has survived the Middle Ages, the Crusades and the Reformation in Church History. Only during the last Century or so has the Premillennial concept of the future of Israel come to the forefront in evangelical Christianity. Even so, it is a minority view.

Does Israel’s Future Demean the Church’s Glory?
Some suggest that if Israel has not ceased to exist in its covenant relationship to God, and if Israel still has a future in the divine plan, this somehow diminishes the position of the Church. Is such a concern valid? It is almost as though the Church has been jealous of Israel, and afraid that if it recognized Israel’s future promises, it would somehow demean Christ and the Church. Nothing could be further from the truth.

It is when the Church recognizes Israel that the true distinctiveness and glory of the Body of Christ becomes evident. This called-out body, composed of believing Jews and Gentiles during the Church Age, is the highest entity the Lord has created, superior to the universe, all the Angels, the nations, and Israel. Our Head, our Husband, our Friend is the Son of God Himself. We shall reign with Him when He rules the earth, and our 12 Founding Apostles will rule over the 12 tribes of Israel. The Angels themselves will study us forever as the greatest exhibit of God’s grace, and we will actually judge the Angels. This is our destiny, and this writer, for one, would not trade his position in the Body of Christ with any creature in the universe! Why, then, be disturbed over what God has promised the Jewish people? Why be jealous over the future destiny of Israel? How short sighted of us! Indeed, the Church’s finest and most distinctive hour will be when Israel is restored nationally and spiritually to the Lord at the Second Coming of Christ. We will return from Heaven with Him as His glorious Bride to rule Israel and the world. What more could we ask?

So, if we are not to suffer from spiritual myopia, we must recognize what the Lord is doing with Israel, not shrinking from it as though our own interests will be overshadowed. Rather, we rejoice in these developments, with full assurance that our own redemption draws ever closer.

This article is scheduled to appear in the Dictionary of Premillennial Theology, to be published by Kregel Publications.


Quasar92

Click to expand...

Quasar92 said:

My studies of prophecy and eschatology totalled 36 years alone, and I earned my qualifications to teach it from Prairie Bible Institute, in Three Hills, Alberta, Canada; Liberty University. in Lynchburg, VA and Dallas Theological Seminary, in Dallas, TX.

Click to expand...

And where, may I ask did you obtain your credentials to teach the Bible?

Click to expand...

BABerean2 said:

Much of that information is found in the book "The Incredible Scofield and His Book" by Joseph M. Canfield.

https://www.amazon.com/Incredible-Scofield-Joseph-Canfield-2005-01-01/dp/B019NRIL8I/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1518612774&sr=8-2&keywords=the+incredible+scofield+and+his+book,+joseph+m.+canfield

.

Click to expand...

Oldmantook said:

Did you even read the book?? Page numbers to substantiate your claims? I'll give you page numbers from that same book that you cite which substantiate my claims that Scofield was a scoundrel and thief.

Scofield began courting his future second wife Hettie van Wark before the divorce was finalized and they got married only three months after it was. Joseph Canfield, The Incredible Scofield And His Book (Vallecito, CA: Ross House Books, 1988) p. 100

Cyrus Scofield had several other incidents of a downright dishonest nature after he supposedly became saved. The fact that in 1892 he began calling himself Doctor Scofield without producing any Doctorate degree from any Seminary or University is the least of his devious activities. Even the details he gave in his story of conversion are proven to be fabricated, including the time, place and other particularities, thereby placing doubt on the whole story. Canfield, op. cit., pp. 65-68

He was a self-promoter in every sense of the word, even lying about being able to comfort and calm the entire city of Belfast, Ireland with a sermon he delivered there the Sunday after the Titanic sunk. Canfield, op. cit., p.239-240

“ Cyrus I. Schofield, formerly of Kansas, late lawyer, politician and
shyster generally, has come to the surface again, and promises once more

to gather around himself that halo of notoriety that has made him so prominent in the past. The last personal knowledge that Kansans have had of this peer among scalawags, was when about four years ago, after a series of forgeries and confidence games he left the state and a destitute family and took refuge in Canada. For a time he kept undercover, nothing being heard of him until within the past two years when he turned up in St. Louis, where he had a wealthy widowed sister living who has generally come to the front and squared up Cyrus’ little follies and foibles by paying good round sums of money. Within the past year, however, Cyrus committed a series of St. Louis forgeries that could not be settled so easily, and the erratic young gentleman was compelled to linger in the St. Louis jail for a period of six months.

Among the many malicious acts that characterized his career, was one peculiarly atrocious, that has come under our personal notice. Shortly after he left Kansas, leaving his wife and two children dependent upon the bounty of his wife’s mother, he wrote his wife that he could invest some $1,300 of her mother’s money, all she had, in a manner that would return big interest. After some correspondence he forwarded them a mortgage, signed and executed by one Chas. Best, purporting to convey valuable property in St. Louis. Upon this, the money was sent to him. Afterwards the mortgages were found to be base forgeries, no such person as Charles Best being in existence, and the property conveyed in the mortgage fictitious…” Canfield, op. cit., pp. 79-80 – as taken from the files of the Kansas State Historical Society.

Click to expand...

Marvin Knox said:

Why are you waiting for confirmation concerning something I never said I disagreed with?

I have clearly asked you time and time again to please provide the post where I claimed that anything you have said about Schofield was incorrect. You will not do it because there is no such statement by me.

How many times and how loud do I have to say it?

Click to expand...

Marvin Knox said:

No - that is not all you said.

You say that Darby first introduced the teaching in America. You said that Scholifield was the one who popularized Darby's teachng. Before that it was not the norm that it is now.

Click to expand...

Marvin Knox said:

Please produce the post where I asked you to prove it. I'm waiting.

Click to expand...

1. 1.
   reprimand or criticize someone severely for a fault or mistake.
   synonyms: rebuke, reprimand, reprove, reproach, remonstrate with, upbraid, scold, berate, castigate, lecture, censure, criticize, admonish, chide, chasten, arraign;

Marvin Knox said:

Why would I agree or disagree as to the character of a man I never met who lived many years ago and about whom I know little except hearsay?

It is not pertinent to the discussion concerning end time events. The scriptures are our source and not people long dead - be they saints or devils.

Click to expand...

Marvin Knox said:

Yes I did and I stand by it.

It is not my "whole argument" that we can't know for sure the things you and the internet allege. It does, however, appear to be your whole argument that Schofield was a scoundrel and therefore we should reject the rapture out of hand.

When it comes to actually arguing from the scriptures - you produce a statement by Jesus in the Book of Revelation and say that it says something it doesn't even say.

Click to expand...

Marvin Knox said:

Nothing.

Please produce the post where I claim that your charges against Schofield are not accurate. One more time - do it or shut up. Your duplicity is wearing thin.

Click to expand...

Marvin Knox said:

Simply produce where I said that Schofield did not have a poor character and I will either recant the statement or prove it.

Click to expand...

Marvin Knox said:

Nowhere in the Revelationpassage does He tell us that He comes as a thief just before a particular battle. He simply reminds us of what He has already said concerning that.

Can I assume that because you are reading the passage in Revelation now you believe that the battle at Megiddo is in the immediate offing?

It is your assumption that the battle must follow immediately after the Lord's warning to be on the look out for deceptions. In fact it is your apparent assumption that the Lord will come back as a thief just after issuing that warning. Those are your assumptions and they are ridiculous. I have asked you to show me where He does say those things and you will not.

When your argument against the rapture is not allowed to include slandering a man long since dead - your theology is shown to be based on assumptions and it falls flat.

You are right - we should end this now. You simply keep saying things which are not accurate. This is true concerning things I have and have not said and it is true concerning things the Lord has and has not said.

Next time we will stick to the scriptures or we will not engage at all. You have a nasty habit of presenting your assumptions and opinions as facts equal with the scriptures.

Until we meet again -

Click to expand...

jgr said:

I'm quite certain that Brother BAB2 is fully in agreement with you.

Click to expand...

Oldmantook said:

Did you even read the book??

Click to expand...

Quasar92 said:

The Israel of God, as recorded in Gal.6:16, are the BORN AGAIN Israeiite Christians who have received Jesus as their Messiah, who has baptized them with the Holy Spirit. recorded in, Mt.3:11, confirming their membership in the Body of Christ, His Church, as recorded in 1 Cor.12:12-13.


Quasar92

Click to expand...