Revelation and the Use of the Vav Consecutive and Kai in the Bible

[iamlamad]

I did not intend to begin a quarrel over words in translating ἐσήμανεν as he symbolized, or he signed, or he signified. As long as it is understood as being communicated in signs and symbolic language, it shouldn't really matter.

ἐσήμανεν does not denote direct, literal communication, but rather sign and symbol. In fact, it would be more accurate to translate it as symbol seeing that the root of our English word 'symbol' comes directly from this word--sym, σήμ.

Except many take the entire book to be symbolic when much of it is to be taken literally.

 

[iamlamad]

Danoh,

If any of these events occurred in the past, then it has to be a part of history.

Who is the man child that will rule the nations with a rod of iron and where is He now?

Rev 12:5​

And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
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Psa 2:6​

Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. ​

Psa 2:7​

I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. ​

Psa 2:8​

Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. ​

Psa 2:9​

Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel
.

　

Have Satan and those angels who followed him been cast out of heaven?
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Rev 12:7​

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, ​

Rev 12:8​

And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. ​

Rev 12:9​

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
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Jud 1:6​

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

　
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Why do you confuse verses and attempt to make they say what they don't?

Please explain how fallen angels, bound in everlasting chains can me the princes of the power of the air? How can they be principalities and powers? The answer is, they CANNOT. Therefore Satan and untold millions of demonic spirits are NOT bound with everlasting chains, and will be (FUTURE) cast down to the earth at the midpoint of the 70th week.

The battle seen in Revelation, where Michael fights with Satan, is NOT ABOUT when Satan fell and took 1/3 of the angels with him. There could be many thousands of years between these two events.

 

[m423156]

Except many take the entire book to be symbolic when much of it is to be taken literally.

I will say that it is a book of literal prophetic events revealed in cipher and symbol. The book is for the learned and sage in Christ. If we do not understand a portion of prophecy we may inquire about it and study it, but it does not do to force anything or to ask questions whose answers we are not ready to bear.

My main critique of the pop approach to studying Revelation is that it is seen as a book of riddles for the busybody and ignoramus to speculate upon instead of a book of spiritual symbol portending the prophetic word for adepts and elect to be edified by.

 

[iamlamad]

A semantic quibble that is a matter of interpretation and bias.

However, that the Great Tribulation was current with John's time is clear, for those who were before God clothed in white had come out of the great tribulation.

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. -- Rev. 7

You have touched on an interesting point, and one that some do not believe: that there was/is/will be more than ONE (1) "great tribulation."

Jesus mentioned days of "great tribulation" greater than all others [meaning there WILL BE or was others] but 'those days" of "great tribulation" Jesus spoke of will be during the last half of the future 70th week of Daniel.

John said that that great crowd, too large to number, came "out of great tribulation." In His narrative he had not yet even opened the 70th week, much less arrived at the midpoint. The timing of this great crowed in heaven is BEFORE the trib' or before the 70th week. I am convinced this is the raptured church, and at the time of the rapture there will be great tribulation felt around the world. Just NOT the same days of GT Jesus spoke of. Today people in many nations of the world are being put to death because they believe in Jesus. It will get worse, and it will spread.

 

[Interplanner]

We all have to remember our roles here. We are servants of the Gospel, and it is enough that we know we have that Gospel and are to take it around. We do NOT have to know everything about the Rev to do so. All we need to know is in the teaching Paul did at Acts 17: God will judge this world in righteousness through Christ and in Christ there is righteousness by which to be saved. Proof of both lies in the resurrection.

Otherwise all you do and all these threads are just vapid attempts to solve something that cannot be solved, by people who think they need to know what they don't need to know.

The normal meaning of 70 is seventy, so the answer is that the 70 weeks happened in the events of the Gospel of Christ, except for the ensuing battle which was the DofJ.

 

[Danoh]

We all have to remember our roles here. We are servants of the Gospel, and it is enough that we know we have that Gospel and are to take it around. We do NOT have to know everything about the Rev to do so. All we need to know is in the teaching Paul did at Acts 17: God will judge this world in righteousness through Christ and in Christ there is righteousness by which to be saved. Proof of both lies in the resurrection.

Otherwise all you do and all these threads are just vapid attempts to solve something that cannot be solved, by people who think they need to know what they don't need to know.

The normal meaning of 70 is seventy, so the answer is that the 70 weeks happened in the events of the Gospel of Christ, except for the ensuing battle which was the DofJ.

In short, do not speculate about this and that, but here is my speculation about "the gospel," - oh, and about this and that also... got it Interplanner.

Have you actually studied much about why God would have be saved?

Is it just to keep them out of hell, but then remaining ignorant of His desire they grow now as to an understanding now as to their role in eternity then?

Where is any of that in all this generic gospel-lizing you just rant on and on about as if the Believer is to be some sort of an Energizer Bunny ever relying on the scholastic mysticism of "perhaps, maybe, not sure," as to God's intent "by the gospel of Christ"?



Oy vey, for short

 

[ebedmelech]

Except many take the entire book to be symbolic when much of it is to be taken literally.

Actually that to is a wrong conclusion. Revelation is heavily symbolic but some of it is literal also. The symbolism is heavily rooted in the OT prophets.

 

[Danoh]

It is all literal, as God's will and purpose are literal.

But it is just as often communicated directly through the literal as indirectly through the symbolic, allegorical, or figurative.

Why?

Because, just as "a picture is worth a thousand words," one symbolic image is that thousand words - the symbolism intended as an instant one image glimpse or capture of all that literal.

"Behold the Lamb of God" - a one shot image of so much literal.

There isn't a passage in all of the Revelation that fails to meet this principle.

While it is not always the literal case that "you can't fight city hall" its is ever the literal that you can't fight the literal the Scripture's symbolism always intends "a picture of..."

 

[m423156]

Yes. Revelation speaks of literal prophetic events by the use of symbolic language. It is written in the style of Daniel's symbology.