Revelation and the Use of the Vav Consecutive and Kai in the Bible

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[m423156]

I was consoled in the spirit that the blatantly obvious, orderly and simple reading of Revelation as linear and sequential was true when I read
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And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last'.​

I am thankful that Jesus is not as confused and convoluted as those who would exegete his words, otherwise he might not know first things from last. If you want to confound the crooked reader, write in straight lines.

 

[ebedmelech]

Sorry, heard this false argument before. Readers: notice how this same Greek word is used in other verses to "make known or to "indicate":

Jhn 12:33 This he said, signifying G4591 what death he should die.

You do realize you're making my point? Did you read John 12:32?
32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”
The narrative makes the point that Jesus being "LIFTED UP" (as he was on the cross) was a sign as to how He would die.

Jhn 18:32 That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying G4591 what death he should die.

Once again it makes my point. This passage is pointing to crucifixion (which ONLY Rome could do), and actually goes back to John 12:32 also...Jesus, being LIFTED UP (as He was on the cross). Again a sign or symbol of how he would die.

Jhn 21:19 This spake he, signifying G4591 by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

You keep making my point Lamad! Look at John 21:18 where Jesus is prophesying to Peter:
8 Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were younger, you used to gird yourself and walk wherever you wished; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands and someone else will gird you, and bring you where you do not wish to go.”
The narrative of John 21:19 is telling you Jesus gave a sign in what He said, of how Peter would die.

Act 11:28 And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified G4591 by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.

You're making my point again. Though this passage doesn't say HOW Agubus did this, he did it by sign or symbolic language from the Holy Spirit, which is what "semaino" means.

Act 25:27 For it seemeth to me unreasonable to send a prisoner, and not withal to signify G4591 the crimes laid against him.

This is the clincher. The passage is saying no charge made against Paul was a SIGN that he had committed a crime! The point being nothing said painted the picture of the charge was brought against Paul.

Readers, DON'T BE FOOLED here. In the mind of God the CHURCH AGE is "tribulation."

Interesting you assume to know God's mind Lamad...especially when NOTHING speaks of a "church age". That is the erroneous interpretation that tries to MAKE the 7 existent churches Jesus had John wrote to church ages. Nothing can be further from the truth.

Readers beware: DON'T BE DECEIVED by what sounds possible.

You just showed the readers what you don't understand...but thanks for unintentionally making my point with those passages Lamad.

 

[m423156]

We see that the Revelation is an Unveiling and an Unsealing. It is not all done at once, it is done through time, in temporal sequence. The sequence of the Book is the sequence of time, and time is the book, and those portions of the book that are beyond the time are sequenced orderly after the present time and cosmic order today.

It may not all be comprehensible to one in their respective generation simply because it does not pertain to their generation. It is the unveiling of those things which imminently were to begin coming to pass in John's generation. Yet the unveiling continues all the way to the end of time. It is sequential and orderly. It is the procession of the kingdom of heaven from the beginning of Christ coming in the clouds of heaven in John's time all the way to his manifestation in appearance at the end. It is to all the servants of Christ for all time. It was for John's time, Clement's time, Jerome's time, Luther's time, our time, and after our time. It speaks of things that have been fulfilled, are being fulfilled, and are yet to be fulfilled. It speaks of them in orderly, linear temporal sequence through time. It is the Bycoming in procession of the Son of Man.

αποκαλυψις ιησου χριστου ην εδωκεν αυτω ο θεος δειξαι τοις δουλοις αυτου α δει γενεσθαι εν ταχει και εσημανεν αποστειλας δια του αγγελου αυτου τω δουλω αυτου ιωαννη [The Unveiling of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants, even the things which must imminently be coming to pass: and he sent and symbolized it by his angel to his servant John. - Rev. 1:1]​

λεγει ο μαρτυρων ταυτα ναι ερχομαι ταχυ αμην ναι ερχου κυριε ιησου [ He who witnesses these things says, Indeed, I am coming imminently. Amen, indeed! May the Lord Jesus be coming. - Rev. 22:20]​

 

[iamlamad]

The usage of the vav consecutive and the Hebraized use of kai through the Bible would argue against Revelation being anything but sequential. On linguistic grounds, no argument but a sequential one can really be made. It is not as if you are given definite time periods such as in Daniel where you can know that the visions are presented in non-sequential order. There is no sealing up of the vision in Revelation. Revelation is written like Genesis, with one thing after the next in sequential order, as an unfolding, a scroll being unrolled.

There is even a big clue when it says,

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants, even the things which must imminently be coming to pass: and he sent and symbolized it by his angel to his servant John. - Rev. 1:1

Now you have hit the nail squarely on the head! Revelation IS in fact a scroll being unrolled....that is AFTER the 7 seals are broken so it can be unrolled. How anyone can even imagine flipping ahead or back a few chapters in a scroll is silly to the extreme. From chapter 8 on, what we read is what is INSIDE the scroll. The seals were broken so that the rest can be revealed and in fact, can take place.

 

[iamlamad]

Ebedmelech wrote,

Originally Posted by iamlamad

Sorry, heard this false argument before. Readers: notice how this same Greek word is used in other verses to "make known or to "indicate":

Jhn 12:33 This he said, signifying G4591 what death he should die.
​

You do realize you're making my point? Did you read John 12:32?
32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”
The narrative makes the point that Jesus being "LIFTED UP" (as he was on the cross) was a sign as to how He would die.
Originally Posted by iamlamad

Jhn 18:32 That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying G4591 what death he should die.
​

Once again it makes my point. This passage is pointing to crucifixion (which ONLY Rome could do), and actually goes back to John 12:32 also...Jesus, being LIFTED UP (as He was on the cross). Again a sign or symbol of how he would die.
Originally Posted by iamlamad

Jhn 21:19 This spake he, signifying G4591 by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.
​

You keep making my point Lamad! Look at John 21:18 where Jesus is prophesying to Peter:
8 Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were younger, you used to gird yourself and walk wherever you wished; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands and someone else will gird you, and bring you where you do not wish to go.”
The narrative of John 21:19 is telling you Jesus gave a sign in what He said, of how Peter would die.
Originally Posted by iamlamad

Act 11:28 And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified G4591 by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.
​

You're making my point again. Though this passage doesn't say HOW Agubus did this, he did it by sign or symbolic language from the Holy Spirit, which is what "semaino" means.
Originally Posted by iamlamad

Act 25:27 For it seemeth to me unreasonable to send a prisoner, and not withal to signify G4591 the crimes laid against him.
​

This is the clincher. The passage is saying no charge made against Paul was a SIGN that he had committed a crime! The point being nothing said painted the picture of the charge was brought against Paul.
Originally Posted by iamlamad

Readers, DON'T BE FOOLED here. In the mind of God the CHURCH AGE is "tribulation."
​

Interesting you assume to know God's mind Lamad...especially when NOTHING speaks of a "church age". That is the erroneous interpretation that tries to MAKE the 7 existent churches Jesus had John wrote to church ages. Nothing can be further from the truth.

Originally Posted by iamlamad

Readers beware: DON'T BE DECEIVED by what sounds possible.
​

You just showed the readers what you don't understand...but thanks for unintentionally making my point with those passages Lamad.

In EVERY CASE it is WORDS.....words just like in Revelation. Yes, there are symbols in Revelation, but most of them are found elsewhere in the bible. Maybe people wish to make what is NOT symbolic in Revelation but just plain text that makes sense in its literal sense into some kind of symbolic nonsense.

Jesus was INDICATING how He would die: by being lifted up. In those days all well understood what that meant.

Agabus INDICATED by the Holy Spirit that a famine was coming. No symbolism here; just words. Chances are about 100% that Agabus SPOKE.

It was, without a doubt, a written document INDICATING the crimes the prisoner had committed that Festus was seeking. Again, just words: no symbols.

In all these cases the word INDICATE fits the texts better than the word symbolize. Now if they were writing in Egyptian Hieroglyphics, that might be another story.

 

[iamlamad]

Lamad's comments in black:

The only way the book of Revelation could meet your requirement would be if the visions that John saw were presented to John in the sequence presented in the book. There is no way the events John saw could be in chronological order.

The harvest of chapter 14 cannot occur until the return of Christ.

It was symbolic prophecy: a foretelling of future events. Just as the verse "Look, I come like a thief!..." A prophecy cannot be out of sequence unless it is after the fact.

The birth of the man child and the fall of Satan in chapter 12 shows it to be a review of Church history.

This is written as a parenthesis with NO BEARING on chronology. Remember, John did not have the parenthesis marks that we have to show a parenthesis. We discover them my study and common sense. You have rightly discovered that these 5 verses do not fit in John's chronology. Just put a parenthesis around them and don't consider them for Chronology. The point is, what was written before these five verses and then after them is in Chronological order.

You, on the other hand, want to move the 6th seal to the 19th chapters, because in your theory that is where it should go. NOTHING about the 6th seal is written out of sequence or written as a parenthesis with no bearing on chronology. It is only your faulty theory that causes you to imagine it is out of sequence.

The kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ in chapter 11, however the battle of Armageddon occurs later.

Faulty theory strikes again! There is NOTHING in these words that indicate Jesus coming or the battle of Armageddon. These verses are only indicated a CHANGE in ruler-ship: Satan lost, Jesus won. NO COMING. That is only your imagination. Why do you struggle so with this when John makes His REAL coming so clear?

The events at the end of chapter 6 describing the wrath of the Lamb occur at the battle of Armageddon.

Only in your wild imagination! Certainly not in John's thinking or the Holy Spirit's thinking.

Maybe your Greek terms do describe the order in which John saw the visions, but no more.

I doubt if you will ever change your theories until these events take place in the exact order that John wrote them. Then, PERHAPS, you will change your mind. However, I have my doubts even then.

 

[Interplanner]

Oh great another doctrine to divide disciples from each other. When will all realize you've got your heads in the trashbin?

The purpose of the material is not to provide a perfect chrono-mechanical map of a bunch of events. It is simply a montage of symbols and scenes that Christ is victorious and will judge the world in righteousness. Don't drown in micro issues.

You and your neighbors will be much further ahead if all you knew was Acts 17's presentation. The resurrection of Christ in the Gospel event proves that God will judge the world through Christ. Get that message out there and quit all this incessant, unresolveable puzzle work. It does not matter.

 

[BABerean2]

Danoh,

If any of these events occurred in the past, then it has to be a part of history.

Who is the man child that will rule the nations with a rod of iron and where is He now?

Rev 12:5​

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And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
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Psa 2:6​

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Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. ​

Psa 2:7​

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I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. ​

Psa 2:8​

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Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. ​

Psa 2:9​

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Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel
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Have Satan and those angels who followed him been cast out of heaven?
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Rev 12:7​

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And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, ​

Rev 12:8​

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And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. ​

Rev 12:9​

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And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
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Jud 1:6​

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And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

　
　
　
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[BABerean2]

Book'em Danoh...

Sorry, I could not resist.

I had to use my own little brain to see that Revelation 12 contains Church History. I did not find it in a book.

 

[ebedmelech]

Ebedmelech wrote,

In EVERY CASE it is WORDS.....words just like in Revelation. Yes, there are symbols in Revelation, but most of them are found elsewhere in the bible. Maybe people wish to make what is NOT symbolic in Revelation but just plain text that makes sense in its literal sense into some kind of symbolic nonsense.

Jesus was INDICATING how He would die: by being lifted up. In those days all well understood what that meant.

Actually the writer provides that information. Just as Jesus provided the information that Jonah, being in the belly of the fish was a SIGN.

Are you getting there?

Agabus INDICATED by the Holy Spirit that a famine was coming. No symbolism here; just words. Chances are about 100% that Agabus SPOKE.

The only thing missing Lamad is HOW Agabus spoke...and that is not provided. What is provided is that Agabus INDICATED there would be famine BY THE SPIRIT. I would hold that just as God often times speaks through His prophets by metaphor, allegory, or parable, Agabus did the same.

It was, without a doubt, a written document INDICATING the crimes the prisoner had committed that Festus was seeking. Again, just words: no symbols.

That's not the point Lamad, the point is whatever that document said was not a SIGN, or evidence...or paint the picture, that a crime was committed. This is what Agrippa is saying.

In all these cases the word INDICATE fits the texts better than the word symbolize. Now if they were writing in Egyptian Hieroglyphics, that might be another story.

That would be your opinion, but the fact is...in every instance except that of Acts 27, symbols or signs are used to communicate.

Just as when Jesus said in John 3:14:
14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;

Classic "semaino" communication by our Lord Lamad! Jesus did that type of communication many times...and so does John throughout Revelation!

 

[m423156]

I did not intend to begin a quarrel over words in translating ἐσήμανεν as he symbolized, or he signed, or he signified. As long as it is understood as being communicated in signs and symbolic language, it shouldn't really matter.

ἐσήμανεν does not denote direct, literal communication, but rather sign and symbol. In fact, it would be more accurate to translate it as symbol seeing that the root of our English word 'symbol' comes directly from this word--sym, σήμ.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[m423156]

John never claimed that he was in the great tribulation.

Revelation is about more than one scroll/book and in between the 6th seal
and the 7th -John saw visions.

I, John, your brother and partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and endurance in Christ Jesus, came to be on the island that is called Patmos on account of the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. -- Rev. 1:9

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[m423156]

I don't see the word - great.

tribulation and great tribulation are not the same times

A semantic quibble that is a matter of interpretation and bias.

However, that the Great Tribulation was current with John's time is clear, for those who were before God clothed in white had come out of the great tribulation.

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. -- Rev. 7