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keras, Israel was reunified in May 14, 1948, as a nation born in a single day, fulfilling Isaiah 66:8.Is America a Kingdom? Is Trump a King?
No; and the Bible never says that the Israelites of God will have any other King than Jesus.
But they will elect a leader - a President, as Prophesied, over the new nation of Beulah, in all of the Holy Land.
When Jesus Returns, He will become King over all the world.
Why don't you address the Prophesies I present?keras, Israel was reunified in May 14, 1948, as a nation born in a single day, fulfilling Isaiah 66:8.
Soon, the Gog/Magog event will take place, as Iran, and its affiliates of Hamas and Hezbollah, are already attacking Israel.
Not a 15 or 20 years down the road attack on a replacement nation (to the current nation of Israel) of Christians that you refer to as Beulah.
Because your interpretations are not correct as far as the current nation of Israel being replaced.Why don't you address the Prophesies I present?
Because; what the Prophets actually say, does not conform to your beliefs.Because your interpretations are not correct as far as the current nation of Israel being replaced.
I've been away from this forum for awhile, but just came back and just now saw this post. So, you acknowledge here that there is what you called "True or Faithful Israel" and you contrasted that with "Natural Israel". And, yet, you have a problem with me saying there are two Israels. Even though you do the same. I don't get it.Sure it did. Sometimes Paul uses literary conventions that don't always seem to make sense at face value. As Peter said, "Sometimes Paul says difficult to understand things that some get confused about." (paraphrased)
In this case, Paul most obviously is not saying that Israel is not Israel. That should be a clue that Paul is using some kind of literary convention. It wouldn't make sense unless you're following his train of thought. Or, perhaps you have to understand his Hebrew background.
A major factor in Hebrew life is the threat that if they refuse to live by the Law of Moses, they will be "cut off" from the people. It would mean that they stopped being assembled with "Israel." They should have to join another culture, or even be killed.
It is like telling a wayward son, "You are no longer my child. I disown you!" The child does not stop being a son, but he is being treated *as if* he is no longer a son.
Paul is therefore not denying that wayward Israel is "Israel." Rather, he is saying that for the sake of identifying Israel's unworthiness he is identifying them as "Untrue Israel" or "Wayward Israel."
Paul uses the example of Ishmael being rejected from being Israel as an example of how one unworthy of the name "Israel" might be looked as if he is another nation entirely--perhaps even a pagan nation? It isn't as if Paul is saying that any Jew is not "Israel" but that in acting like a pagan nation it appears as if they are not Israel any longer, lacking the faith they were called to display.
You misunderstand Paul, in my view. He is saying that *for purposes of establishing Faith* physical characteristics of Israel is not the exclusive basis for determining that. Faith is displayed on top of physical characteristics--physical characteristics are not being rejected, but only in terms of the exclusive means of establishing faith in Israel.
You have changed the equation. You are now saying the litmus test is for "God's children." That was not the litmus test being discussed. It involves "True Israel," which is concerned only with faith in Natural Israel.
It is not a matter of identifying who is Israel, but rather, who is "True or Faithful Israel." A "true Jew" must be both a Natural Jew (or a converted Jew) and be a Jew who has genuine faith. Being a Natural Jew is insufficient to establish his faithfulness.
A Jew who fails to display genuine faith does not cease being a Jew. He just ceases being a "true" or "faithful" Jew! This is not a matter of defining who a "Jew" is. Rather, it is God's way of showing who among the Jews are being rejected for final placement in that assembly.
You can't make sense of it because you assume I referred to "two Israels," when I didn't. It is "True Israel" within "Israel" proper. It is faithful Jews among many Jews, some of who remain and some of who leave forever. But all who remain, faithful or not, remain "Jews."I've been away from this forum for awhile, but just came back and just now saw this post. So, you acknowledge here that there is what you called "True or Faithful Israel" and you contrasted that with "Natural Israel". And, yet, you have a problem with me saying there are two Israels. Even though you do the same. I don't get it.
Similarly, you reference a "true Jew" in contrast to "a natural Jew". Is that not two different types of Jews? Yet, despite this, you probably still claim there is only one type of Jew just like you claim there are not two Israels, but only one? Sorry, but I can't make any sense of what you believe. So be it.
That's how it comes across.You can't make sense of it because you assume I referred to "two Israels," when I didn't.
That comes across as two different Israels. One that you call "Israel proper". The basis of being part of that Israel is only on one's DNA. And the other you call "True Israel" which consists only of "faithful Jews". You can say it's one Israel within another or a subset, but you are still coming across as if you are referring to two different Israels. One that's based on nationality and faith and one that's based on nationality only.It is "True Israel" within "Israel" proper.
So, in the case of the Jews, why not just call them either faithful or unfaithful instead of referring to "Natural Israel" and "True (or Faithful) Israel"?It is faithful Jews among many Jews, some of who remain and some of who leave forever. But all who remain, faithful or not, remain "Jews."
If I have a church full of people, and all of them are Christians I would say that they are all "Christians." But inasmuch as only *some* of them are "faithful" I can say that only some of them are "faithful Christians."
Why talk of them as a separate entity that you call "Faithful Israel" when you only believe in one Israel and not two Israels? Are you not interested in being clear? Why not just refer to faithful Israelites and unfaithful Israelites from (what you believe to be) the one Israel?The unfaithful Christians may decide to leave Christianity entirely, or they may eventually repent. But those who do not leave entirely do not stop being called "Christians."
Those who are unfaithful and do not leave Christianity entirely do not become "nonChristians." Rather, only *some* of them fall away completely, and these would no longer be Christians.
In the case of Israel we would call them all "Israel" and only *some* of them "Faithful Israel."
God's people are only those who have faith. Don't make something simple into something complicated. This doesn't mean that those who do not have faith right now can never come to have faith and become part of God's people, of course. But, this is very simple. God's people are those who have faith. If you don't have faith, you're not a child of God.In this case we know that God got so incensed with Unfaithful Israel that he disowned them and called them "Not My People."
I think that throws you off and makes you think that "Not My People" have stopped being "Israel." But this is just sort of a way of threatening those who are unfaithful with being cut off permanently. In reality, "Unfaithful Israel" was owned again to be called "Israel, My People." This is in Hosea.
Sorry, no, I don't understand your position. I think you make things far more complicated than they are.They never stopped being "Israel." But if they completely turn away from their God forever, they stop living in Israel as well and are forced to join another nation. They are apostates who then become a different nation. They are no longer part of Israel!
You don't have to agree. But I hope this helps you to understand my position?
Nowhere in the Scriptures do we see the word "two Israels."That's how it comes across.
Not at all. There is one group of Christians in our church. Some are faithful, and some are not. This does not make our church "two churches."That comes across as two different Israels. One that you call "Israel proper". The basis of being part of that Israel is only on one's DNA. And the other you call "True Israel" which consists only of "faithful Jews". You can say it's one Israel within another or a subset, but you are still coming across as if you are referring to two different Israels. One that's based on nationality and faith and one that's based on nationality only.
I've had to explain to you that the fact that there is a "true Israel" does not mean there is a "2nd Israel."So, in the case of the Jews, why not just call them either faithful or unfaithful instead of referring to "Natural Israel" and "True (or Faithful) Israel"?
I'm not talking about them as a "separate entity." Rather, I'm speaking of a single entity with one group being faithful and one group being unfaithful. The fact I group them as such is not creating separate "entities."Why talk of them as a separate entity that you call "Faithful Israel" when you only believe in one Israel and not two Israels?
That isn't true. God called Israel to have faith even before they fully had it--some didn't get it at all. Those who proved to be faithless were cut off.God's people are only those who have faith.
Don't agree. Israel is "Israel" before they have Christian faith. That has always been true.Don't make something simple into something complicated. This doesn't mean that those who do not have faith right now can never come to have faith and become part of God's people, of course. But, this is very simple. God's people are those who have faith. If you don't have faith, you're not a child of God.
Being "children" is different from being "Israel."Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
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