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Revealing the data behind the science of evolution

Loudmouth

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Sure, but the point if the original question was to demonstrate what a nested hierarchy IS. Not whether it is as significant as those in evolution. And these CAN be identified by characteristics, anyway. Different squads may be responsible for different tasks. Can there be other units at other posts which are responsible for the same task? Yes, of course. But that doesn't change the fact that the particular battalion we are looking at is organised in an hierarchical manner.

We can organize anything into a hierarchial fashion. What matters is if it is objective or not.

"Although it is trivial to classify anything subjectively in a hierarchical manner, only certain things can be classified objectively in a consistent, unique nested hierarchy. The difference drawn here between "subjective" and "objective" is crucial and requires some elaboration, and it is best illustrated by example. Different models of cars certainly could be classified hierarchically—perhaps one could classify cars first by color, then within each color by number of wheels, then within each wheel number by manufacturer, etc. However, another individual may classify the same cars first by manufacturer, then by size, then by year, then by color, etc. The particular classification scheme chosen for the cars is subjective. In contrast, human languages, which have common ancestors and are derived by descent with modification, generally can be classified in objective nested hierarchies (Pei 1949; Ringe 1999). Nobody would reasonably argue that Spanish should be categorized with German instead of with Portugese."
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#nested_hierarchy

The point is that a nested hierarchy is simply a particular way in which a group is organized. We hadn't yet arrived at the point of demonstrating how it is significant in evolution.

It is significant because we can observe the mechanisms or evolution producing nested hierarchies in living populations. We know that if evolution is responsible for the complex species we see today that they should fall into an objective nested hierarchy.
 
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The Cadet

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Given a sufficiently imaginative creator, anything is possible, even likely.

Yeah, sure. But let's say that imaginative creator wants us to know him, and to understand history as it actually is. Would it make sense for that creator to provide countless pieces of evidence that, while they could technically have been put there by him, point far more clearly to an alternative hypothesis? Why wouldn't he make it so that it wasn't that way? Why would he make it in a way he had to have known people would completely misunderstand?
 
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Loudmouth

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How can you prove that evolution would produce a nested hierarchy?

We observe evolution producing a nested hierarchy. One example is lab raised mouse strains.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1800920/

Also, you can predict that evolution will produce a nested hierarchy from first principles. The mechanisms of random mutation, natural selection, and speciation coupled with vertical inheritance can only produce a nested hierarchy. There is simply no way to move an adaptation from sharks into porpoises, for example. There is no mechanism that would allow for that in the process of evolution in complex animals. However, an intelligent designer would be free to move genes straight from sharks into porpoises, yet we never see anything like that. We only see the nested hierarchy that evolution should produce.
 
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pat34lee

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Some of the nested hierarchies we see in genetics deal with identifiable remnants of viruses, and also with genes that don't function in certain species. An omnipotent creator certainly COULD build his creatures with these genes in place, but are you okay with the idea he did? What would that mean about those inclusions? Why would he design our genomes in such a way that it APPEARS as though we have common viral remnants with other species?

You are assuming those viral remnants are mistakes; that they
had no purpose in more species than one.
 
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Loudmouth

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You are assuming those viral remnants are mistakes; that they
had no purpose in more species than one.

No such assumption is made. We don't have to determine if they are functional or not in order to evidence evolution. Function has absolutely nothing to do with it.
 
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juvenissun

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So you believe...JUST IN CASE he's real? You think your God can't see through that?

My faith is based on many reasons. The fundamental assumption for all these reasons is that God exists.

For you who has not consider all the reasons yet, it is a "just in case" attitude. For me, the foci is on the reasoning of issues. Believe it or not, it is a lot of fun to consider the problems by assuming that God exists.

Of course God knows my attitude. I think He would like it.
 
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The Cadet

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My faith is based on many reasons. The fundamental assumption for all these reasons is that God exists.
...But that's totally circular. You have faith because of reasons based on the presupposition that god exists. That... really doesn't work.
 
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pat34lee

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No such assumption is made. We don't have to determine if they are functional or not in order to evidence evolution. Function has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Function always follows if there is a creator and plan involved.
 
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pat34lee

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Yeah, sure. But let's say that imaginative creator wants us to know him, and to understand history as it actually is. Would it make sense for that creator to provide countless pieces of evidence that, while they could technically have been put there by him, point far more clearly to an alternative hypothesis? Why wouldn't he make it so that it wasn't that way? Why would he make it in a way he had to have known people would completely misunderstand?

People 'misunderstand' many facts on purpose in order to keep up
their denial of God.
 
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pat34lee

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juvenissun

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...But that's totally circular. You have faith because of reasons based on the presupposition that god exists. That... really doesn't work.

No. It is not. Faith based on logic, precisely speaking. (Logic permits assumptions, right?)
You need to walk across the first step of uncertainty. This is true for everything you do.
 
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The Cadet

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So, what is the reason that you do not?
Because I see no valid reason to, and more specifically because people keep coming back to "you have to have faith", and I consider faith to be a complete abrogation of critical thinking; a vice, rather than a virtue.
 
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The Cadet

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No. It is not. Faith based on logic, precisely speaking. (Logic permits assumptions, right?)
Okay, but if you're going to assume the thing you're trying to prove, you can save yourself quite a few steps.
 
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juvenissun

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Because I see no valid reason to, and more specifically because people keep coming back to "you have to have faith", and I consider faith to be a complete abrogation of critical thinking; a vice, rather than a virtue.

Why then many scientists found reasons to believe? Are you more reasonable than them?
 
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juvenissun

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Okay, but if you're going to assume the thing you're trying to prove, you can save yourself quite a few steps.

No. I am not trying to do that.
I made the assumption that God exists SO THAT I can reason the rest of the theology. Theology is not a study trying to prove the existence of God.
 
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