Rev. 20:4, No Mention of Physical Earthly Reign

BukiRob · Nov 15, 2015

Jan001 said:
Revelation 20:4-6
And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. nkjv

When did the very first resurrection occur? It happened when Jesus Christ died on the cross. These same saints which rose from the dead at that time are ruling in heaven with Jesus Christ right now and they have been ruling with Him in heaven for almost 2000 years already. There cannot possibly be another first resurrection in the future.

Matthew 27:50-53
And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many. nkjv

Every person who dies and is approved to enter into heaven will reign there with Jesus until it is time for His second appearing/coming. His second coming will signal that it is time for the sheep and goats judgment.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us. nkjv

Eternal life is not formally granted to the righteous until after the sheep and goats judgment. Matthew 25:31-46

The Resurrection of MAN is twofold. The Resurrection that Paul speaks of where the dead in Christ rise and we put on Immortality and our corruptible flesh puts on incorruptible bodies.

The second Resurrection is the Resurrection to Judgement. Which takes place after the millennial events take place... this is where the grave (hell) and death is cast into the Lake of Fire.

ewq1938 · Nov 15, 2015

BukiRob said:
This all has its root in replacement theology which is a false doctrine.

Israel is NOT replaced by the "church" Believers who are gentiles are grafted in we do not replace...

I didn't say they were replaced. God decides who is Israel and who is not based on whether one is a Christian. Non Christians are removed and Christians are grafted in. That is not replacement. One can only be a part of Israel if they believe in Christ:

The people of God are branches on a certain olive tree. When the NT came, those who did not believe in Christ were removed from that tree and those that did believe were allowed to remain. In addition, branches from other olive trees (gentiles) were taken and added to this special tree. This tree is Israel, the people of God, but now it is not based on race but on the heart and Spirit.

It has to do with faith and belief. All natural branches of Israel that deny the Messiah have been pruned off and all the "wild branches" of gentiles that believe have been added into the olive vine. That right there is replacement but not arbitrarily. Those that were removed deserved it and those that were added in deserved it. It is not a whole and complete replacement but only a replacement of branches that produced no fruit (essentially dead spiritually) with living, fruit producing branches!

Romans 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh - who are called the uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands--

Eph 2:12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel & strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Eph 2:19 Now, therefore, you are NO LONGER STRANGERS and FOREIGNERS, but FELLOW CITIZENS with the saints and members of the household of God,

When a gentile becomes a "fellow citizen" with a Christian Jew he is an Israelite just as the Jew is. On the flip side, Jews that do not believe in Christ are cast out and are no longer "citizens" of Israel.

Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

"Israel" was a name that belonged to no one until God re-named Jacob and thus all of Jacob's children shared in that name. Just as God took that name and placed it on Jacob, he can take it away and give it to someone else! That's what happened. Now there are the racial, former Israelites and the new every-race Israel commonly known as spiritual Israel.

What makes someone a Jew is no longer the outwardly meaning the flesh, your bloodline or parents. You can only be a Jew if you are one spiritually, of a circumcised heart and that ONLY can be achieved by being in Christ. At one time all people were gentiles, then God chose 12 brothers and decided that they would father a new people, and after God divorced these people for Adultery he sent his Son to die for the sins of all peoples, all now equal, no chosen race of people any longer. Now to be a Jew, to be of Israel it is to be in Christ. God no longer favors someone over another based on their race.

BukiRob · Nov 15, 2015

ewq1938 said:
I didn't say they were replaced. God decides who is Israel and who is not based on whether one is a Christian. Non Christians are removed and Christians are grafted in. That is not replacement. One can only be a part of Israel if they believe in Christ:

The people of God are branches on a certain olive tree. When the NT came, those who did not believe in Christ were removed from that tree and those that did believe were allowed to remain. In addition, branches from other olive trees (gentiles) were taken and added to this special tree. This tree is Israel, the people of God, but now it is not based on race but on the heart and Spirit.

this is replacement theology. Gentiles are grafted in to Israel... the Jewish people do not cease to be Israel because they are blind.

ewq1938 said:
It has to do with faith and belief. All natural branches of Israel that deny the Messiah have been pruned off and all the "wild branches" of gentiles that believe have been added into the olive vine. That right there is replacement but not arbitrarily. Those that were removed deserved it and those that were added in deserved it. It is not a whole and complete replacement but only a replacement of branches that produced no fruit (essentially dead spiritually) with living, fruit producing branches!

Romans 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh - who are called the uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands--

Eph 2:12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel & strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Eph 2:19 Now, therefore, you are NO LONGER STRANGERS and FOREIGNERS, but FELLOW CITIZENS with the saints and members of the household of God,

When a gentile becomes a "fellow citizen" with a Christian Jew he is an Israelite just as the Jew is. On the flip side, Jews that do not believe in Christ are cast out and are no longer "citizens" of Israel.

Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

"Israel" was a name that belonged to no one until God re-named Jacob and thus all of Jacob's children shared in that name. Just as God took that name and placed it on Jacob, he can take it away and give it to someone else! That's what happened. Now there are the racial, former Israelites and the new every-race Israel commonly known as spiritual Israel.

What makes someone a Jew is no longer the outwardly meaning the flesh, your bloodline or parents. You can only be a Jew if you are one spiritually, of a circumcised heart and that ONLY can be achieved by being in Christ. At one time all people were gentiles, then God chose 12 brothers and decided that they would father a new people, and after God divorced these people for Adultery he sent his Son to die for the sins of all peoples, all now equal, no chosen race of people any longer. Now to be a Jew, to be of Israel it is to be in Christ. God no longer favors someone over another based on their race.

You have done a wonderful job of articulating replacement theology.... Israel, the Jewish people do not cease being Israel. They will be redeemed and the veil of blindness will be removed and they WILL repent and be saved.

ewq1938 · Nov 15, 2015

BukiRob said:
this is replacement theology. Gentiles are grafted in to Israel... the Jewish people do not cease to be Israel because they are blind.

That's false. They are removed:

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

You have done a wonderful job of articulating replacement theology.

Also incorrect. There is no replacing involved. It's adding or subtracting members to or from Israel. No one is replaced.

... Israel, the Jewish people do not cease being Israel. They will be redeemed and the veil of blindness will be removed and they WILL repent and be saved.

Scripture does not present that. It says they can be grafted back only if they stop abiding in unbelief.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Scripture does not say there will come a time when all unbelieving Jews will suddenly accept Christ. I hope that happens but it isn't found in scripture. Likely it will be as it always has been. Some believe and accept Christ and some don't. That is true of any non-believers not just Jews.

BukiRob · Nov 16, 2015

ewq1938 said:
That's false. They are removed:

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Also incorrect. There is no replacing involved. It's adding or subtracting members to or from Israel. No one is replaced.

Scripture does not present that. It says they can be grafted back only if they stop abiding in unbelief.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Scripture does not say there will come a time when all unbelieving Jews will suddenly accept Christ. I hope that happens but it isn't found in scripture. Likely it will be as it always has been. Some believe and accept Christ and some don't. That is true of any non-believers not just Jews.

[/QUOTE]

You are parsing words. You position is that the Church replaces Israel in its covenantal relationship with Adonai

iamlamad · Nov 16, 2015

BukiRob said:
You are parsing words. You position is that the Church replaces Israel in its covenantal relationship with Adonai

The truth is, most Gentile Christians, if they were making the decision, would just write Israel off and give up on them. Thank God, HE NEVER FORGETS A PROMISE MADE, and He has made MANY promises to Israel as a nation and a people.

The very purpose of the 70th week (OF DANIEL) is to bring Israel to a place of complete hopelessness - as Daniel wrote, until their power is shattered completely. Today they trust in themselves and in THEIR power. God will get to to the place where they have no power left, and unless God comes, they will disappear forever as a nation, and a people. At this time, when all hope is gone, Jesus will show up, and they will see the nail prints in His hands.

OF COURSE at this time it will be too late for them to join the bride of Christ, for that door will close, but they will be allowed entrance into the Millennial Kingdom. God WILL fulfill His promises to them.

ewq1938 · Nov 16, 2015

You are parsing words. You position is that the Church replaces Israel in its covenantal relationship with Adonai[/QUOTE]

No, that's your misinterpretation. Who and what Israel is now has been redefined by God. Israel now is not blood related by spiritually related. All who accept Christ are Israel. All who do not, are no longer Israel.

No one is replaced and that is addressed by scripture as being a false concept:

Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.(the idea of replacement theology which Paul says is not true)
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

They were broken off not to be replaced but solely because they were non believers. Adding new branches is not replacing.

iamlamad · Nov 16, 2015

ewq1938 said:
You are parsing words. You position is that the Church replaces Israel in its covenantal relationship with Adonai

No, that's your misinterpretation. Who and what Israel is now has been redefined by God. Israel now is not blood related by spiritually related. All who accept Christ are Israel. All who do not, are no longer Israel.

No one is replaced and that is addressed by scripture as being a false concept:

Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.(the idea of replacement theology which Paul says is not true)
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

They were broken off not to be replaced but solely because they were non believers. Adding new branches is not replacing.[/QUOTE]
So you think Israel becoming a nation once again is a happenstance or coincidence?

Jan001 · Nov 16, 2015

ewq1938 said:
First, congrats on understanding they resurrected the day he died not 3 days later as most people believe. Second, they count but that's not the first time someone was resurrected from the dead nor does it have any connection to the context and timing of the first of two resurrections in Rev 20.

No one was resurrected from the dead in the same way as Jesus was with an incorruptible and immortal body until after Jesus' death on the cross. Lazarus came out of his grave, but he physically died later on and his corruptible and mortal body was buried and it returned to dust.

To stay in context, who is being resurrection in the first part of Rev 20 and who is being resurrected a thousand years later?

Revelation 20:4-5
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. niv

The people who came to life when Jesus died are the ones reigning with Jesus right now. These are the people who were part of the first resurrection.

The people whose bodies rose from the dead when Jesus died on the cross came to life and it is they who are now spiritually reigning with Jesus in heaven over all the earth right now for the thousand years which is a figure of speech for the long time period between Jesus' first coming/appearing 2000 years ago and His second coming/appearing which will be at the end of time.

Also, all the saints on earth who die during the time period between Jesus' first coming/appearing 2000 years ago and His second coming/appearing in the future also spiritually reign with them in heaven over all the earth until the day of Judgment/His second coming/appearing.

2 Timothy 2:11-13
Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13 if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself. niv

Yes, so why are you taking the context of people rising at the cross and forcing it into Rev 20? It's different people being spoken of, particularly those that were beheaded for refusing the mark of the beast...the same beast Christ destroys in Rev 19. That beast exists when Christ returns and it only has 42 months to reign according to Rev 13 so the beast rises to power 42 months before the Rev 19 second coming which means the beheaded ones in Rev 20 refused the mark and were killed in that same 42 month period.

Rev. 19 was fulfilled when Jerusalem, its temple, and the unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem were destroyed between 67-70 A.D. This is the 42 month time period and the Roman armies were used by God to take vengeance on the unbelieving Jews who rejected His Son.

Before their destruction, the Jews continually persecuted the Christians. The Jews' power was destroyed by the Roman armies. Stephen is the first Christian martyr mentioned in Scripture who was killed by the Jews.

John the baptist and many other faithful Israelites and Jews were martyred by evildoers throughout the history of the Israelites.

The Book of Revelation describes the same events in different ways just as the Gospels describe the same resurrection of Jesus Christ in different ways. Satan was chained at the time of the death of Jesus Christ and he will continue to be chained until shortly before the time of Jesus' second appearing/coming. Satan is chained during this same time period that the saints of the first resurrection are spiritually reigning with Jesus in heaven. Satan will be unchained shortly before the time of the Antichrist. The Antichrist is killed/consumed by the breath of Jesus' mouth and the brightness of His second coming/appearing.

2 Thessalonians 2:8
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. nkjv

You just said this was after the second coming. You do realize Christ returns to the Earth and stays here right?

Heaven is temporary place for the Father and Son and angles. They all comes to the Earth to spend eternity so reigning on the earth is where the reign will be. Have you not read this verse about those who reign and live with Christ?

Where is Jesus preparing a place for us?

John 14:2
My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? niv

We do inherit the earth to enjoy, but our home seems to be in heaven where the Father lives now.

Psalm 103:19
The Lord has established his throne in heaven, and his kingdom rules over all. niv

Isaiah 66:1
This is what the Lord says: “Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Where is the house you will build for me? Where will my resting place be? niv

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

This is sung in heaven, yet they do not say we are reigning in heaven, but shall (future tense) reign on Earth. Rev 2 even states they will reign over the nations and guess where they are? The Earth.

All the elect in heaven right now are reigning spiritually with Jesus over all the earth.

Jan001 · Nov 16, 2015

ewq1938 said:
No, that isn't true. Rev 20 does not support that interpretation. In Rev 20 it is the period of time Christ reigns with his saints which resurrect in the same timeframe as his second coming which Paul also wrote about.

Eternal life is granted to the saved before the thousand years ever starts. The unsaved will only go to hell fire after the thousand years is over.

We will agree to disagree.

Jan001 · Nov 16, 2015

ewq1938 said:
No it didn't, nor is that when he resurrected, nor was it the fuirst resurrection ever, and lastly and most importantly the first ressurrection of Rev 20 much be contextual to what Rev 20 describes. It says a groups of formerly dead people are resurrected to reign with Christ.

There is only one first mass bodily resurrection of the dead in Rev 20. Any other kind of resurrection is out of context. Its called a contextual fallacy.

No, the saints have an Earthly reign not a heavenly reign, Rev 5:10.

We will agree to disagree.

ewq1938 · Nov 16, 2015

Jan001 said:
No one was resurrected from the dead in the same way as Jesus was with an incorruptible and immortal body until after Jesus' death on the cross. Lazarus came out of his grave, but he physically died later on and his corruptible and mortal body was buried and it returned to dust.

I know it wasn't "the same way" but you can't say Christ was the "first resurrection" because he wasn't plus that isn't the context of Rev 20 anyways.

Revelation 20:4-5

Click to expand...

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. niv

The people who came to life when Jesus died are the ones reigning with Jesus right now. These are the people who were part of the first resurrection.

Not according to the verses you just posted.

The people whose bodies rose from the dead when Jesus died on the cross came to life and it is they who are now spiritually reigning with Jesus in heaven over all the earth right now for the thousand years which is a figure of speech for the long time period between Jesus' first coming/appearing 2000 years ago and His second coming/appearing which will be at the end of time.

Wrong again. First you say Lazarus would have died again but you don't say the same about these people? Second, Rev 20 says the people of the first resurrection were beheaded for not taking the mark of the beast, which is the same beast Christ defeats in Rev 19 the second coming battle which means the beheaded saints that are the first resurrection died within a period of 42 months just prior to the second coming. So it is impossible that Rev 20 is speaking of people that lived, died and resurrected in the time of Christ's death.

Rev. 19 was fulfilled when Jerusalem, its temple, and the unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem were destroyed between 67-70 A.D. This is the 42 month time period and the Roman armies were used by God to take vengeance on the unbelieving Jews who rejected His Son.

No, that is wrong. Even most Amil's agree Rev 19 is the second coming.

All the elect in heaven right now are reigning spiritually with Jesus over all the earth.

Nope. Satan reigns the world currently according to Christ. That reign only ends when Christ returns and defeats the beast and false prophet and casts Satan into the pit.

Jan001 · Nov 16, 2015

jerry kelso said:
jan001,

1. Jesus resurrection had the first fruits. In Revelation 20:4-6 the first resurrection in context is to the tribulation saints who were beheaded by the beast kingdom. So, you saying the first resurrection is when Christ was resurrected was the first resurrection in being the same as Revelation 20:4-6 is incorrect to the context and is just an opinion disregarding context.

2. The appearing and the kingdom are two different things. At the appearing and his kingdom should be concerning the appearing and his kingdom they should preach the word etc. Now you may think I am changing this wording but I am reconciling the scriptures together which show the appearing of the dead and the living in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 which takes place meeting in the air and the kingdom we come out of heaven to do battle. At the kingdom Christ will judge the nations in that day which are the sheep and the goat nations (Matthew 25).
It is an earthly reign because we are being trained to rule and reign on earth. Revelation 5:10 and hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall "REIGN ON THE EARTH".

3. Earth is God's footstool because he is creator from Heaven and this is just the earthly sphere that is a part of the universal KoG. This physical kingdom is out of harmony with the universal kingdom and has to be brought back into harmony with it. Daniel 7:14 shows that Christ will be given authority and dominion on earth. Well how could this be if the Lord already has complete authority in heaven and in earth. So your logic is not specific to the context and is the same logic as I have just explained that you are saying and makes no sense. One must understand the context otherwise it is at risk of being an opinion. Do you understand this? Jerry kelso

The Son of God had dominion over all the earth before He was made incarnate. Jesus who is the Son of God received dominion over all the earth once again and forevermore after He ascended into heaven which was shortly after His resurrection from the dead.

Colossians 3:1
If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. nkjv

In heaven right now, Jesus is ruling/reigning over all the earth and the heavens.

Acts 5:30-32
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered by hanging on a tree. 31 Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. 32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.” nkjv

Luke 22:69
Hereafter the Son of Man will sit on the right hand of the power of God. nkjv

1 Corinthians 15:22-26
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

Jesus is reigning right now in heaven over all the earth and He will continue to reign with His saints there in heaven over all things until the time of His second appearing/coming. At the time of His second appearing/coming Jesus will put an end to all rule and authority.

Dave Watchman · Nov 16, 2015

Jan001 said:
Jesus is reigning right now in heaven over all the earth and He will continue to reign with His saints there in heaven over all things until the time of His second appearing/coming. At the time of His second appearing/coming Jesus will put an end to all rule and authority.

That sure does sound like a nice thing but the 24 elders don't seem to agree with it in Revelation 11. They seem to be saying that Jesus has just then taken His great power
and at that point in the future began to reign" which is in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel at the close of the 1260 days of the tribulation.

As if He received the authority in Matthew 28, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me, but only begins using it at the end of the tribulation which initiates the thousand years of revelation 20.

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
who is and who was,
for you have taken your great power
and begun to reign.

They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years,

They will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

Jan001 · Nov 16, 2015

BukiRob said:
The Resurrection of MAN is twofold. The Resurrection that Paul speaks of where the dead in Christ rise and we put on Immortality and our corruptible flesh puts on incorruptible bodies.

The second Resurrection is the Resurrection to Judgement. Which takes place after the millennial events take place... this is where the grave (hell) and death is cast into the Lake of Fire.

There is only one more resurrection still to come.

This final resurrection occurs when Jesus returns at His second coming/appearing.

At the time of Jesus' second coming/appearing, the elect/saints who are still alive on earth will meet together in the air with Jesus and His angels and saints. Jesus and His angels and saints will come down from heaven to meet them so that they will always be together. Next is the judgment of all people, both the sheep and the goats, at the great white throne.

John 5:26-29
For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. nkjv

1 Corinthians 15:51-53
Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep [die], but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. nkjv

1 Corinthians 15:20-28
But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. nkjv

Death is destroyed forever at the sound of the last trumpet. The dust of the bodies of the people in the graves will resurrect into new bodies and then these bodies will rejoin with their spirits wherever they may be.

The mortal bodies of the elect/saints who are still alive on earth will instantly change to immortal bodies as these saints are rising to meet Jesus in the air at the time of His second appearing/coming.

Jan001 · Nov 16, 2015

ewq1938 said:
I know it wasn't "the same way" but you can't say Christ was the "first resurrection" because he wasn't plus that isn't the context of Rev 20 anyways.

Not according to the verses you just posted.

Wrong again. First you say Lazarus would have died again but you don't say the same about these people? Second, Rev 20 says the people of the first resurrection were beheaded for not taking the mark of the beast, which is the same beast Christ defeats in Rev 19 the second coming battle which means the beheaded saints that are the first resurrection died within a period of 42 months just prior to the second coming. So it is impossible that Rev 20 is speaking of people that lived, died and resurrected in the time of Christ's death.

No, that is wrong. Even most Amil's agree Rev 19 is the second coming.

Nope. Satan reigns the world currently according to Christ. That reign only ends when Christ returns and defeats the beast and false prophet and casts Satan into the pit.

We will agree to disagree.

iamlamad · Nov 16, 2015

Jan001 said:
There is only one more resurrection still to come.

This final resurrection occurs when Jesus returns at His second coming/appearing.

At the time of Jesus' second coming/appearing, the elect/saints who are still alive on earth will meet together in the air with Jesus and His angels and saints. Jesus and His angels and saints will come down from heaven to meet them so that they will always be together. Next is the judgment of all people, both the sheep and the goats, at the great white throne.

John 5:26-29
For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. nkjv

1 Corinthians 15:51-53
Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep [die], but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. nkjv

1 Corinthians 15:20-28
But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. nkjv

Death is destroyed forever at the sound of the last trumpet. The dust of the bodies of the people in the graves will resurrect into new bodies and then these bodies will rejoin with their spirits wherever they may be.

The mortal bodies of the elect/saints who are still alive on earth will instantly change to immortal bodies as these saints are rising to meet Jesus in the air at the time of His second appearing/coming.

This is a very confusing post: first it is said that there is only ONE more resurrection to come:

Then TWO resurrections are mentioned! Go figure! The FINAL will be at His coming. But then, "Next is the judgment of all people, both the sheep and the goats, at the great white throne.

Please think about this and correct it. You will be confusing people.

Then, you escape from reality yet again when you say that all will resurrect at the "last trumpet." Sorry, but the DEAD - spiritually speaking - the sinners in hell will not rise until after the 1000 year reign of Christ. It will be only those IN CHRIST that rise at the "last trump." I do hope you don't imagine this as the 7th trumpet of Revelation.

Next, keep in mind that Rev. 19 SHOWS His coming, but Paul in 1 Thes. mentions His coming at the pretrib rapture. So we have TWO comings. It is simply impossible to fit all verses on His "coming" into one coming. Many saints believe He will come first FOR His saints, and then in Rev. 19 WITH His saints.

BukiRob · Nov 16, 2015

Jan001 said:
There is only one more resurrection still to come.

This final resurrection occurs when Jesus returns at His second coming/appearing.

At the time of Jesus' second coming/appearing, the elect/saints who are still alive on earth will meet together in the air with Jesus and His angels and saints. Jesus and His angels and saints will come down from heaven to meet them so that they will always be together. Next is the judgment of all people, both the sheep and the goats, at the great white throne.

John 5:26-29
For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. nkjv

1 Corinthians 15:51-53
Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep [die], but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. nkjv

1 Corinthians 15:20-28
But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. nkjv

Death is destroyed forever at the sound of the last trumpet. The dust of the bodies of the people in the graves will resurrect into new bodies and then these bodies will rejoin with their spirits wherever they may be.

The mortal bodies of the elect/saints who are still alive on earth will instantly change to immortal bodies as these saints are rising to meet Jesus in the air at the time of His second appearing/coming.

So much wrong here... we can start here:
Death is not destroyed at the last trumpet as John tells us that Death and the Grave are thrown into the lake of fire.

ONLY the dead in Christ are raised upon his return.

iamlamad · Nov 16, 2015

Jan001 said:
No one was resurrected from the dead in the same way as Jesus was with an incorruptible and immortal body until after Jesus' death on the cross. Lazarus came out of his grave, but he physically died later on and his corruptible and mortal body was buried and it returned to dust.

Revelation 20:4-5
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. niv

The people who came to life when Jesus died are the ones reigning with Jesus right now. These are the people who were part of the first resurrection.

The people whose bodies rose from the dead when Jesus died on the cross came to life and it is they who are now spiritually reigning with Jesus in heaven over all the earth right now for the thousand years which is a figure of speech for the long time period between Jesus' first coming/appearing 2000 years ago and His second coming/appearing which will be at the end of time.

Also, all the saints on earth who die during the time period between Jesus' first coming/appearing 2000 years ago and His second coming/appearing in the future also spiritually reign with them in heaven over all the earth until the day of Judgment/His second coming/appearing.

2 Timothy 2:11-13
Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13 if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself. niv

Rev. 19 was fulfilled when Jerusalem, its temple, and the unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem were destroyed between 67-70 A.D. This is the 42 month time period and the Roman armies were used by God to take vengeance on the unbelieving Jews who rejected His Son.

Before their destruction, the Jews continually persecuted the Christians. The Jews' power was destroyed by the Roman armies. Stephen is the first Christian martyr mentioned in Scripture who was killed by the Jews.

John the baptist and many other faithful Israelites and Jews were martyred by evildoers throughout the history of the Israelites.

The Book of Revelation describes the same events in different ways just as the Gospels describe the same resurrection of Jesus Christ in different ways. Satan was chained at the time of the death of Jesus Christ and he will continue to be chained until shortly before the time of Jesus' second appearing/coming. Satan is chained during this same time period that the saints of the first resurrection are spiritually reigning with Jesus in heaven. Satan will be unchained shortly before the time of the Antichrist. The Antichrist is killed/consumed by the breath of Jesus' mouth and the brightness of His second coming/appearing.

2 Thessalonians 2:8
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. nkjv

Where is Jesus preparing a place for us?

John 14:2
My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? niv

We do inherit the earth to enjoy, but our home seems to be in heaven where the Father lives now.

Psalm 103:19
The Lord has established his throne in heaven, and his kingdom rules over all. niv

Isaiah 66:1
This is what the Lord says: “Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Where is the house you will build for me? Where will my resting place be? niv

All the elect in heaven right now are reigning spiritually with Jesus over all the earth.

Preposterous and simply NOT scripture: This verse in chronology is right at the midpoint of the FUTURE 70th week:

Rev. 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 saying: "We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign.

The kingdoms of the world are now held by SATAN. So in truth, Satan is reigning, NOT CHRIST. Jesus Christ WILL begin to reign when Satan loses and is cast down at the midpoint of the week.

Make no mistake here, Jesus is reigning over the body of Christ on earth, for we belong to Him.

The people who came to life when Jesus died are the ones reigning with Jesus right now. These are the people who were part of the first resurrection.

You are MILES off from truth here. When Jesus died, there was a great earthquake, which God used to bring the dead bodies together and to the surface of the earth, but only of the ELDERS of the Old Testament. Perhaps 24 of them. After they were seen around town, then went to heaven and have been there ever since. Someone who went to heaven and had to come back because someone prayed, saw that Abraham looked different than others, and asked him. He replied that a few were resurrected when Jesus rose, so he already had his resurrection body.

I will agree, these INCLUDING JESUS are a part of the "first" or PRIMARY resurrection that is for the righteous. But this comes only from logic. In Revelation those in question are the Bride of Christ seen on thrones judging and then those who lost their head during the days of GT. Keep in mind, ALL or ANY righteous that are resurrected, have been resurrected or will be resurrected will be a part of this PRIMARY or CHIEF resurrection for the righteous.

iamlamad · Nov 16, 2015

BukiRob said:
So much wrong here... we can start here:
Death is not destroyed at the last trumpet as John tells us that Death and the Grave are thrown into the lake of fire.

ONLY the dead in Christ are raised upon his return.

RIGHT ON!

But those that are alive and in Christ are also raised up into the air, and also given a resurrection body, but we cannot say they "resurrected" for they were not dead.

Rev. 20:4, No Mention of Physical Earthly Reign

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