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Rev 12:1 A Crown of Twelve Stars

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JeffreyLloyd

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Uncle Bud said:
Mr. Lloyd,

I think why LL is saying this is because of the Catholic publications that both her and I have that say that the woman is Israel. One that I have is the transl;ation notes in the New American Bible (Saint Joseph Edition).

Anyway I do think the OP asked for this to be a Protestant / Baptist discussion, so if it is possible to continue this amongst ourselves that would be great. Perhaps you could ask someone through PM about this question you have?

Thanks,
Uncle Bud
That's fine, and I will stay out of it, I was just asking some questions. And FWIW, Pope John Paul II made the connection between Mary and Rev 12 in Evangelium Vitae:

"A great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun" (Rev 12:1): the motherhood of Mary and of the Church

103. The mutual relationship between the mystery of the Church and Mary appears clearly in the "great portent" described in the Book of Revelation: "A great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars" (12:1). In this sign the Church recognizes an image of her own mystery: present in history, she knows that she transcends history, inasmuch as she constitutes on earth the "seed and beginning" of the Kingdom of God. The Church sees this mystery fulfilled in complete and exemplary fashion in Mary. She is the woman of glory in whom God's plan could be carried out with supreme perfection.

The "woman clothed with the sun"the Book of Revelation tells us "was with child" (12:2). The Church is fully aware that she bears within herself the Saviour of the world, Christ the Lord. She is aware that she is called to offer Christ to the world, giving men and women new birth into God's own life. But the Church cannot forget that her mission was made possible by the motherhood of Mary, who conceived and bore the One who is "God from God", "true God from true God". Mary is truly the Mother of God, the Theotokos, in whose motherhood the vocation to motherhood bestowed by God on every woman is raised to its highest level. Thus Mary becomes the model of the Church, called to be the "new Eve", the mother of believers, the mother of the "living" (cf. Gen 3:20).

The Church's spiritual motherhood is only achieved--the Church knows this too--through the pangs and "the labour" of childbirth (cf. Rev 12:2), that is to say, in constant tension with the forces of evil which still roam the world and affect human hearts, offering resistance to Christ: "In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it" (Jn 1:4-5).

Like the Church, Mary too had to live her motherhood amid suffering: "This child is set ... for a sign that is spoken against--and a sword will pierce through your own soul also--that thoughts out of many hearts may be revealed" (Lk 2:34-35). The words which Simeon addresses to Mary at the very beginning of the Saviour's earthly life sum up and prefigure the rejection of Jesus, and with him of Mary, a rejection which will reach its culmination on Calvary. "Standing by the cross of Jesus" (Jn 19:25), Mary shares in the gift which the Son makes of himself: she offers Jesus, gives him over, and begets him to the end for our sake. The "yes" spoken on the day of the Annunciation reaches full maturity on the day of the Cross, when the time comes for Mary to receive and beget as her children all those who become disciples, pouring out upon them the saving love of her Son: "When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, ?Woman, behold, your son!' " (Jn 19:26).

"And the dragon stood before the woman ... that he might devour her child when she brought it forth" (Rev 12:4): life menaced by the forces of evil

104. In the Book of Revelation, the "great portent" of the "woman" (12:1) is accompanied by "another portent which appeared in heaven": "a great red dragon" (Rev 12:3), which represents Satan, the personal power of evil, as well as all the powers of evil at work in history and opposing the Church's mission.

Here too Mary sheds light on the Community of Believers. The hostility of the powers of evil is, in fact, an insidious opposition which, before affecting the disciples of Jesus, is directed against his mother. To save the life of her Son from those who fear him as a dangerous threat, Mary has to flee with Joseph and the Child into Egypt (cf. Mt 2:13-15).

Mary thus helps the Church to realize that life is always at the centre of a great struggle between good and evil, between light and darkness. The dragon wishes to devour "the child brought forth" (cf. Rev 12:4), a figure of Christ, whom Mary brought forth "in the fullness of time" (Gal 4:4) and whom the Church must unceasingly offer to people in every age. But in a way that child is also a figure of every person, every child, especially every helpless baby whose life is threatened, because--as the Council reminds us--"by his Incarnation the Son of God has united himself in some fashion with every person". It is precisely in the "flesh" of every person that Christ continues to reveal himself and to enter into fellowship with us, so that rejection of human life, in whatever form that rejection takes, is really a rejection of Christ. This is the fascinating but also demanding truth which Christ reveals to us and which his Church continues untiringly to proclaim: "Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me" (Mt 18:5); "Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me" (Mt 25:40).

"Death shall be no more" (Rev 21:4): the splendour of the Resurrection

105. The angel's Annunciation to Mary is framed by these reassuring words: "Do not be afraid, Mary" and "with God nothing will be impossible" (Lk 1:30, 37). The whole of the Virgin Mother's life is in fact pervaded by the certainty that God is near to her and that he accompanies her with his providential care. The same is true of the Church, which finds "a place prepared by God" (Rev 12:6) in the desert, the place of trial but also of the manifestation of God's love for his people (cf. Hos 2:16). Mary is a living word of comfort for the Church in her struggle against death. Showing us the Son, the Church assures us that in him the forces of death have already been defeated: "Death with life contended: combat strangely ended! Life's own Champion, slain, yet lives to reign".


Cheers!
 
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ZiSunka

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Hmm, well my Jerusalem Study Bible, my American Standard Study Bible and my Douay Rhiems Study Bible must all be wrong, as well as this Bible study bookelt published by the Leaflet Missal Company with both imprimatur and Nihil Obstat printed in it that was used when my mon's church did a study on Revelation 20 years ago. Oh well, there you have it. 20 (or 15years ago in the case of my Jerusalem Study Bible) years ago it was wrong to say the woman in Revelation 12 was Mary, but now the pope has decided that it is acceptable afterall. Does that mean my Bibles are now out of date and should be discarded?
 
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aReformedPatriot

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Thanks for the info Jeff! :)

My request for a a private discussion has nothing to do with not wanting RC input but rather, i just dont want to get shut down, it seems good convorsations get closed before they can run their due coarse especially when RC doctrine is involved.
 
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Matthan

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It is my understanding that there are a great many RC's scattered all over the world, and especially in the US, that have petitioned the pope to officially and infallibly declare Mary "queen of heaven". The last I heard, their petition had over 3 million names!

I have also read where the pope, while giving a speech to young people in Denver, proclaimed that he was asking Mary to protect them. Not Jesus. Not God! But Mary alone. And, after he was shot, the pope proclaimed officially and infallibly that Mary had saved his life. Based on that and other official, infallible declarations (including the one posted earlier in this thread), that he follows Mary quite seriously.

Matthan <J><
 
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ps139

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And, after he was shot, the pope proclaimed officially and infallibly that Mary had saved his life.
I hate to butt in, but the pope cannot proclaim that infallibly, its not a dogma that Mary protected him when he was shot. He would never have the right to and has never proclaimed that infallibly. Its just not possible.
 
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SumTinWong

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JeffreyLloyd said:
That's fine, and I will stay out of it, I was just asking some questions. And FWIW, Pope John Paul II made the connection between Mary and Rev 12 in Evangelium Vitae:
Cheers!
nevermind
 
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SumTinWong

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ps139 said:
I hate to butt in, but the pope cannot proclaim that infallibly, its not a dogma that Mary protected him when he was shot. He would never have the right to and has never proclaimed that infallibly. Its just not possible.
What you say is true, but really guys, try to refrain from posting in this thread so it does not deteriorate into a us against you thread.
 
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ZiSunka

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I'm going to bow out of this now because the thread has become moot. If Pope John Paul has recently declared that Mary IS the woman in Revelation 12, then that's that. Of course, she isn't, but there is no point in discussing where Catholics got the idea that she is, if it has been found that the pope now says she is, dispite 2000 years of teaching to the contrary.

It beats me, though, how something can be church teaching for 2000 years, and then all of a sudden, the church does a 180 on the subject. Does that mean that all thinking on the subject prior to the pope's declaration was in error, or that they didn't interpret scripture correctly until now? Why don't catholics question things like this? I know that if I were in a church where something that was previously taught as false suddenly became true, I would question that, not just idlely accept it.
 
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ZiSunka

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Okay, for 2004 years, it was taught by Christians of all faiths, including Baptists and the church that pre-existed the reformation, that the woman in Revelation was NOT Mary, but now the leader of one Christian denomination has reversed that and has declared that it is indeed Mary, even though all their writings on the subject prior to that most emphatically state that it is not.

How does that affect your own belief on the identity of the woman? Has anyone in B/A forum changed their mind about the identity of this woman based on the declaration of the leader of the other denomination?
 
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ZiSunka

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ps139 said:
Perhaps you should notice the mod hat message and not keep discussing Rome.
I believe I asked a question about how people in the B/A forum are affected by the declaration of the pope, and that is not against the rules, nor is it a violation of the mod warning, which asked us to keep the discussion to what B/A's think about the subject.
 
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ps139

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And what is the subject?
The Baptist interpretation of Rev 12:1? or what the Catholics believe?

RED that's ME said:
MOD HAT ON

This thread has become derailed. The OP started this thread for Baptists to discuss what the Baptists believe not what another faith believes. This needs to get back to the original intent.


MOD HAT OFF
 
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