• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Returning to the Orthodox faith?

Yoder777

Senior Veteran
Nov 11, 2010
4,782
458
✟30,081.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
This book seems like a good introduction to Eastern Christianity from a Western perspective:
The Lost History of Christianity: The Thousand-Year Golden Age of the Church in the Middle East, Africa, and Asia--and How It Died: John Philip Jenkins: 9780061472817: Amazon.com: Books

Starred Review. Revisionist history is always great fun, and never more so than when it is persuasively and cogently argued. Jenkins, the Penn State history professor whose book The Next Christendom made waves several years ago, argues that it's not exactly a new thing that Christianity is making terrific inroads in Asia and Africa. A thousand years ago, those continents were more Christian than Europe, and Asian Christianity in particular was the locus of tremendous innovations in mysticism, monasticism, theology and secular knowledge. The little-told story of Christianity's decline in those two continents—hastened by Mongol invasions, the rise of Islam and Buddhism, and internecine quarrels—is sensitively and imaginatively rendered. Jenkins sometimes challenges the assertions of other scholars, including Karen Armstrong and Elaine Pagels, but provides compelling evidence for his views. The book is marvelously accessible for the lay reader and replete with fascinating details to help personalize the ambitious sweep of global history Jenkins undertakes. This is an important counterweight to previous histories that have focused almost exclusively on Christianity in the West. (Nov.)
The Lost History of Christianity: The Thousand-Year Golden Age of the Church in the Middle East, Africa, and Asia--and How It Died: John Philip Jenkins: 9780061472817: Amazon.com: Books
 
Upvote 0

Yoder777

Senior Veteran
Nov 11, 2010
4,782
458
✟30,081.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
When I said in this thread that I would avoid polemics, I didn't mean that I would avoid discussing difficult issues. I learned the hard way that one need not try to "win" an argument, which usually means hammering someone over the head with what you believe to be the truth, to discuss various issues with someone with whom you may disagree. When you discuss issues that might bring up bad feelings for people, it can actually be a healing process if discussed in a proper, non-confrontational manner.
 
Upvote 0
T

Thekla

Guest
This book also seems interesting:



...or it could be a polemical hate fest of an Orthodox convert against his former faith. Has anyone read it?

You may have received a response already, but this book does not have an "Orthodox tone" imo. And it's 'polemical'. I have refused to stock it in the 3 Parish bookstores where I have volunteered.
 
Upvote 0

Yoder777

Senior Veteran
Nov 11, 2010
4,782
458
✟30,081.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
You may have received a response already, but this book does not have an "Orthodox tone" imo. And it's 'polemical'. I have refused to stock it in the 3 Parish bookstores where I have volunteered.

That's interesting. My parish bookstore has it but I don't know why.
 
Upvote 0
T

Thekla

Guest
That's interesting. My parish bookstore has it but I don't know why.

Perhaps it's just me (though no priest has objected to my decision).

A similar point can be made without the fury (caveat: I didn't finish the book).

Why, in my view, use space and resources when the same information can be covered in a more Orthodox "tone". (We learn by timbre as well - and this for me is a measure when choosing inventory.)
 
Upvote 0

Yoder777

Senior Veteran
Nov 11, 2010
4,782
458
✟30,081.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
This time around, I don't plan on insisting on Orthodoxy as the one true church, at least not when relating to people outside the Orthodox faith. It may not sound possible to some, but one can be devoutly Orthodox and non-sectarian at the same time.

sectarian [sɛkˈtɛərɪən]adj1. of, belonging or relating to, or characteristic of sects or sectaries
2. adhering to a particular sect, faction, or doctrine
3. narrow-minded, esp as a result of rigid adherence to a particular sect

n a member of a sect or faction, esp one who is bigoted in his adherence to its doctrines or in his intolerance towards other sects, etc.sectarianism n
sectarian - definition of sectarian by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
The word "Orthodox" can mean "right belief" or "right worship." "Right worship" refers not just to the liturgy on Sunday morning but how we glorify God with our daily lives. If I am to attract people to the Orthodox faith, it will be through the life that I live, not the doctrines I use to hit them over the head.
 
Upvote 0

Ariadne_GR

Creative Writer
Dec 10, 2010
1,430
90
Freedom
✟24,488.00
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Private
Politics
AU-Labor
This time around, I don't plan on insisting on Orthodoxy as the one true church, at least not when relating to people outside the Orthodox faith. It may not sound possible to some, but one can be devoutly Orthodox and non-sectarian at the same time.

The word "Orthodox" can mean "right belief" or "right worship." "Right worship" refers not just to the liturgy on Sunday morning but how we glorify God with our daily lives. If I am to attract people to the Orthodox faith, it will be through the life that I live, not the doctrines I use to hit them over the head.

Yes. If only all Orthodox would realise that people are not going to come to Orthodoxy via being talked down to with a holier than thou attitude. It's not about how many doctrines you shove down their throat. You can be the holiest of holy but if you come across as an arrogant know it all, they will not be attracted to Orthodoxy, they will merely look for something else with people that are not only devoted to their faith but also humble and genuine.
 
Upvote 0

Yoder777

Senior Veteran
Nov 11, 2010
4,782
458
✟30,081.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
To be honest, folks, while I have a deep appreciation of Eastern Orthodoxy as a faith, I am still on the fence as to whether I plan on staying for the long-term. Like I said originally, I am returning after a four year absence to sort of test the waters.

My wife is from a Protestant background and it's unlikely that she'd ever be comfortable with converting to Orthodoxy. I therefore have to choose whether I want my wife and children to attend church with me, albeit a non-Orthodox church, or if I want to be a separate faith from my own family.

That's not an easy decision to make. I do know that I want to belong to a church that is sacramental, liturgical, and apostolic. In my estimation, that includes Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism and Anglicanism. Going from Protestant evangelical to Anglican would be a much shorter leap for my wife than going full on to Orthodoxy.

I am respectful toward a diversity of opinion on these matters and I am sorry if I am offending anyone for bringing them up. I've never visited an Anglican church before, though I am curious as to what their services are like and how faithfully they've preserved early church tradition.

There was a regular Anglican poster on an Eastern Orthodox forum a few years ago who didn't identify himself as Protestant. Instead, he considered himself a member of the historic Church of England that existed before the Vatican took control of it.
 
Upvote 0

Gnarwhal

☩ Broman Catholic ☩
Oct 31, 2008
20,862
12,593
38
Northern California
✟498,155.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
To be honest, folks, while I have a deep appreciation of Eastern Orthodoxy as a faith, I am still on the fence as to whether I plan on staying for the long-term. Like I said originally, I am returning after a four year absence to sort of test the waters.

My wife is from a Protestant background and it's unlikely that she'd ever be comfortable with converting to Orthodoxy. I therefore have to choose whether I want my wife and children to attend church with me, albeit a non-Orthodox church, or if I want to be a separate faith from my own family.

That's not an easy decision to make. I do know that I want to belong to a church that is sacramental, liturgical, and apostolic. In my estimation, that includes Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism and Anglicanism. Going from Protestant evangelical to Anglican would be a much shorter leap for my wife than going full on to Orthodoxy.

I am respectful toward a diversity of opinion on these matters and I am sorry if I am offending anyone for bringing them up. I've never visited an Anglican church before, though I am curious as to what their services are like and how faithfully they've preserved early church tradition.

There was a regular Anglican poster on an Eastern Orthodox forum a few years ago who didn't identify himself as Protestant. Instead, he considered himself a member of the historic Church of England that existed before the Vatican took control of it.

Hey bro, I think that I can sympathize with much of your predicament as I'm in nearly the exact same situation as you. The only differences may be that I'm not yet baptized into the Orthodox Church (where I think you said you were previously Orthodox) and I also don't have kids yet.

Other than that, Church has been a very tense issue between my wife and I over the past few months. Work has provided an escape of sorts because my boss has needed me to work Sundays, but I have had a couple Sundays off in the last year and when I have it's become a very difficult and sometimes heated discussion about where I'll be going to church. My wife has made it abundantly clear that she has absolutely no intention of ever attending an Orthodox church again, let alone becoming an Orthodox Christian, much to my dismay.

Her and I both come from Evangelical backgrounds, although she comes from a family who distrusts all forms of organized religion (including your garden variety non-denominational church) and they are extremely charismatic/pentecostal in their praxis, her mom regularly "speaks in tongues" (emphasis on the quotes) and believes in prophesy and all sorts of end-of-the-world conspiracy theorist nonsense. So spiritually, while my wife is a very solid Christian, her ecclesiological and theological background is a complete bag of cats!

For me, I just became completely disillusioned with the entire evangelical motif from the sermon to the worship style and have found that a liturgical style is much more proper.

It continues to be an issue though, and sadly I've somewhat swept it under the rug recently just because I haven't had the energy to get into a debate. I do deep down feel that I want to join the Orthodox Church though. My priest began to ask me if there was any indication that maybe my wife would approve of my becoming a catechumen and I had to tell him that there hadn't really been much discussion or movement in any regard just because I've been trying to maintain peace in my home.

Sorry for the long-winded post, I can be a blowhard sometimes. This is all to say that I can relate somewhat to your situation and if you ever want to chat about it feel free to shoot me a PM about it or something.
 
Upvote 0

Yoder777

Senior Veteran
Nov 11, 2010
4,782
458
✟30,081.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
For me, I just became completely disillusioned with the entire evangelical motif from the sermon to the worship style and have found that a liturgical style is much more proper.

I totally agree with this. What do you think of the view that the Anglican Church is the historic Church of England?
 
Upvote 0

Gnarwhal

☩ Broman Catholic ☩
Oct 31, 2008
20,862
12,593
38
Northern California
✟498,155.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I totally agree with this. What do you think of the view that the Anglican Church is the historic Church of England?

To be honest I haven't studied the Anglican Church itself much, although I read a lot of NT Wright's work (as if that counts for much, haha) prior to discovering Orthodoxy. Interestingly enough, my parents visited an Anglican parish for the first time today (it's an APCK parish which I don't know much about other than it stands apart form The Episcopal Church) so I've been reading about it a little bit. I can't say that I've taken a personal interest in Anglicanism, although I am keenly aware that it's probably closer to Orthodoxy than anything else, including Roman Catholicism, except when it comes to the sacraments, perhaps.
 
Upvote 0

Yoder777

Senior Veteran
Nov 11, 2010
4,782
458
✟30,081.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
To be honest I haven't studied the Anglican Church itself much, although I read a lot of NT Wright's work (as if that counts for much, haha) prior to discovering Orthodoxy. Interestingly enough, my parents visited an Anglican parish for the first time today (it's an APCK parish which I don't know much about other than it stands apart form The Episcopal Church) so I've been reading about it a little bit. I can't say that I've taken a personal interest in Anglicanism, although I am keenly aware that it's probably closer to Orthodoxy than anything else, including Roman Catholicism, except when it comes to the sacraments, perhaps.

From what I've heard, Anglicans believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist and receive it regularly.
 
Upvote 0

Yoder777

Senior Veteran
Nov 11, 2010
4,782
458
✟30,081.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
For a period of about two years after leaving Eastern Orthodoxy, I was a very committed Protestant. I was not the conservative Evangelical type. I was more of the Brian McLaren, N.T. Wright, Phyllis Tickle, Marcus Borg, etc. type.

For a period of time, I was very involved in the Salvation Army. I was attracted to the Salvation Army as a faith because of their work on behalf of the poor, something that was noticeably lacking in Orthodox churches. My wife and I were even married in the Salvation Army chapel.

After attending services for about two years at the Salvation Army corps, I came to the realization that even though I liked the people there and the service work they do, I was very bored with hearing the same basic sermons over and over again and singing the same simplistic Hillsong United songs over and over again. Most of all, I missed the Eucharist, as the Salvation Army is a non-sacramental church.

Since I've never attended a Protestant church that is sacramental and liturgical, I can't say for certain that I would never attend one if it meant not having to belong to a separate faith as my wife. And in saying these things, I in no way intend on denigrating Eastern Orthodoxy as a faith. It's just a personal dilemma that many people of mixed marriages must grapple with.
 
Upvote 0

Gnarwhal

☩ Broman Catholic ☩
Oct 31, 2008
20,862
12,593
38
Northern California
✟498,155.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
From what I've heard, Anglicans believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist and receive it regularly.

I searched through STR earlier today about that subject and found one of the posters had quoted a priest's blog that said:

"The Body and Blood of Christ that comes to us in and through the consecrated bread and wine is a glorified body, a spiritual body. It requires a glorified spirit to be able to properly receive it and feed on it. But that does not mean that Christ is not really, truly present, in an objective way, by His own free gift of Himself. The spiritual nature of the Body does not make the Body any less of a real Body. Nor does our need to feed spiritually, through faith, make any difference in the reality of the gift that is given in the sacrament."

Unless I'm misunderstanding this, it kind of seemed like a two-sided view. As in, "Yes it's really his body and blood but it's really his spiritual body and blood". Which is a little... muddy, I guess.
 
Upvote 0

Yoder777

Senior Veteran
Nov 11, 2010
4,782
458
✟30,081.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
My interest in Orthodoxy is not a matter of "right beliefs." We live in a postmodern context in which absolute truth claims don't matter unless they produce real fruits in one's personal life. That's why I'd rather focus on Orthodoxy as "right worship," not just in the liturgy on Sunday but in how we glorify God in our daily life. If I am to stay in the Orthodox faith, it will not be to hit my wife over the head with it, but to set a good example of what an Orthodox Christian man lives and loves like.
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
42,369
21,044
Earth
✟1,672,519.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
My interest in Orthodoxy is not a matter of "right beliefs." We live in a postmodern context in which absolute truth claims don't matter unless they produce real fruits in one's personal life. That's why I'd rather focus on Orthodoxy as "right worship," not just in the liturgy on Sunday but in how we glorify God in our daily life. If I am to stay in the Orthodox faith, it will not be to hit my wife over the head with it, but to set a good example of what an Orthodox Christian man lives and loves like.

the two are connected though. right worship leads to right belief. it's not either or.
 
Upvote 0

Yoder777

Senior Veteran
Nov 11, 2010
4,782
458
✟30,081.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
the two are connected though. right worship leads to right belief. it's not either or.

If you look at the church fathers, especially the hesychasts, spiritual truth was not found through logical argumentation but in the personal experience of prayer and meditation. It's very different from the Cartesian understanding of truth that Westerners forced on the world.
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
42,369
21,044
Earth
✟1,672,519.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
If you look at the church fathers, especially the hesychasts, spiritual truth was not found through logical argumentation but in the personal experience of prayer and meditation. It's very different from the Cartesian understanding of truth that Westerners forced on the world.

I agree, that is why I said it is not either or. the personal encounter with Christ in right worship, leads to right belief, because you come to know Him. argumentation has nothing to do with it.
 
Upvote 0

Yoder777

Senior Veteran
Nov 11, 2010
4,782
458
✟30,081.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I agree, that is why I said it is not either or. the personal encounter with Christ in right worship, leads to right belief, because you come to know Him. argumentation has nothing to do with it.

I am glad we agree on that one. As Orthodox Christians, our goal is not to hit people over the head with our beliefs but to live them in our own personal lives in such a way that people see them as worth believing in the first place.
 
Upvote 0