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Rethinking Hell-Redux

Der Alte

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My ¢¢ My feelings have been hardened in eyeball to eyeball armed conflict with communist forces. In Vietnam I flew helicopters and was shot down 5 times and injured once. I will not turn tail and run.
Below are quotes from three Jewish sources; the 1917 Jewish Encyclopedia, 1972 Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud. Which to date have not been, and I am convinced cannot be, refuted.
= = = = =
…..It is very enticing to claim that the Christian concept of "Hell" was somehow derived from Dante's 14th century writing “Inferno,” or some later writing. But according to these three sources, at least 16 centuries before Dante even scribbled one line, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom. Sheol and gehinnom are written Hades and Gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT. As can be seen by the citations in this post The Jews later called both Sheol/Hades, and Ge Hinnom/Gehenna, “Hell."
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not disprove anything in this post.

[1]1925 Jewish Encyclopedia,
Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the sons of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this paragraph would be about 700 BC +/-, DA]
Note: This is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA
…..This refutes the false narrative that the eleven [11] times Jesus mentioned “Gehenna” He was referring to the valley of GeHinnom/Gehenna where trash and bodies were supposedly always burning. It never happened!

”(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai [30 BC-90 AD] wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
“But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab [Talmud]. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
“… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b).[Talmud] “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; [Talmud] comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b)[Talmud].

Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
[2]1972 Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.

…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Link:
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
= = = = = = = = = =

[3]Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
When Jesus taught e.g.,
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6 [A fate worse than death. DA]
• “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. …And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24 [A fate worse than death]
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
[A fate worse than death. DA]
…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, c.f. Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and Talmud, supra.
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death, without mercy, is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. [A fate worse than death. DA]
…..how much sorer punishment,””Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord,””It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” these deprecations certainly do not sound like everyone will be saved, no matter what.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say “eternal death,” in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment/aionios kolasis.
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, see Acts of the Apostles 23:8. They knew that everybody died; rich, poor; young, old; good, bad; men, women; children, infants; sick, healthy, and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment.
When Jesus taught, e.g., “eternal punishment” the Sadducees would not have understood it as simply death, it very likely would have meant something worse to them.
…..Re: Matt 25:46 concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
…..Jesus attended Temple and synagogues for about 25 years +/-. He undoubtedly knew what the Jews believed about the fate of the unrighteous. He opposed the Jewish leaders many times, If the Jewish teaching on hell was wrong, why wouldn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, e.g.
"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"[/i] ([Judith xvi:17]Judith xvi. 17).
Link: Judith, CHAPTER 16
 
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Pavel Mosko

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Well I did write this kind of Blog style post for Facebook on Universal Reconciliation. I use to have some debates on this sort of thing, on another message board that died out 10 years back.


I have a problem with UR (Universal Reconciliation) because if that was the will of God he could have communicated it better in the various parables, sermons etc. I have some Blog type entries that I will repost from Facebook, as well as reposted here on some threads.


1) But in a nutshell if that really was the will of God that could have been communicated much better than it was in the Bible. Basically, I'm a smart guy, and educated guy, but everything we know about the reputation of Jesus from the Bible as a "teacher", him being the Second Person of the Trinity etc. he should be able to run circles around me.


But even I can frame parables etc. that could communicate UCR type message. I for instance would tell the story of the Foolish Young virgins and the Feast, that they were only locked out of the feast for the first day or second day, but were able to buy oil from a shop keeper and later somewhere on the second day of the feast they bump into someone who lets them in.... so their sadness eventually is turned into joy.



2) But there is just a lot of Biblical language that is against the basic idea. In our day, recycling to save the environment is a big deal. In the days of the Bible, when there was no mass manufacturing recycling and refurbishing broken, damaged and worn out products was even a bigger deal. If UR was the will of God it would have been easy to include such a parable or metaphor in the Bible. Comparing a sinner as something like a broken sandal or maybe a broken sword that needs to be re-forged in the furnace. But we see no such parable made by Jesus. The Bible throughout actually does the opposite using words like chafe, dross etc. to describe the wicked. These are things that were considered waste products and thrown out, burned etc.



3) And then there is the problem of Satan.... IF UR is true will he be redeemed eventually? IF that is true why hasn't he already repented, he has had thousands of years to do so?


This actually is a kind of a good "thought experiment" type question because it actually gets at some of the theoretical aspects of what people believe not just about Soteriology, but other basic assumptions the differences between the creation of man vs. the angels and what difference that potentially makes in what God intends for each.




4) Problems with Freewill, Eternal Security etc.


Well I did eventually find how to access my old write up and will end my Blog post quoting my last summary point.



Point 4) on why I don't believe in Universal Reconciliation, 2 Potential Theological conundrums raised by it and a few side notes.

1) As much as it can be construed as an Act of Mercy, UR can actually be seen as an act of coercion (God is leaning on the person to make him or her say "uncle", so he/she will eventually do what he wants rather than eventually accepting their chose after he has wooed them for years on the Earth).


2) IF UR is true then that logically might mean that the eternal security of the the Church Triumphant might also be in jeopardy! (Now I don't believe that, but if UR is true on the hell side, then that might actually lead to that unfortunate drawback on the other.) Revelation 21:4 New International Version

He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."


3) I am also going to add a bullet point for those UR folks that like quoting the Church Fathers etc. I love the Fathers but some of them were very into Platonism. Platonism is great for many things (understanding a God that transcends His creation, is outside time etc.), but just as many modern Protestants I believe are deeply affected by their cultural philosophical heritage that affects their interpretation of the Bible, we likewise need to be realize that the same also applies to some of the Church Fathers.... (Certain quotes tend to reflect a Platonic interpretation of the Bible etc,)


4) Certain other Fathers, like Saint Isaac the Syrian, reflect a hope for the Salvation of humankind. This is very Christian attitude (of how we should orientate our lives) and something that we all should long for, pray for etc. It is not a dogmatic thing (something that is proclaimed that must happen as a official teaching), but a expression of love that we as Christians should have for the Lost.



Point 5) Why I don’t believe in Universal Reconciliation, Universal Reconciliation. Probably going to stop here (to not beat a dead horse). Besides some of the areas covered this forum discusses some other points of terminology I didn’t cover.

Properly Understanding the Greek word 'Aionios' and the Hebrew word 'Olam'. (Torah, purification) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum


UR depicts God as being a God that is inarticulate, inept or even secretive or deceptive at communicating his thoughts to humanity when it comes to the afterlife because most of the terminology, idioms, and implied messages about the after life from Jesus, the apostles and rest of the Bible depicts. This is a God who is very different than the one the prophets and the apostles knew and preached!


Matthew 5:37New International Version (NIV)

37 All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.


1 Corinthians 14:33King James Version (KJV)

33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.


Romans 10:20

And Isaiah boldly says, "I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me."


Amos 3:7

New International Version

Surely the Sovereign LORD does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets.


1 Corinthians 14:8

New International Version

Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle?


Isaiah 45:19 ►

Verse (Click for Chapter)

New International Version

I have not spoken in secret, from somewhere in a land of darkness; I have not said to Jacob's descendants, 'Seek me in vain.' I, the LORD, speak the truth; I declare what is right.
 
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Jipsah

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Below are quotes from three Jewish sources; the 1917 Jewish Encyclopedia, 1972 Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud. Which to date have not been, and I am convinced cannot be, refuted.
If I were a Jew I would certainly be impressed.

…..It is very enticing to claim that the Christian concept of "Hell" was somehow derived from ]]Dante's 14th century writing “Inferno,” or some later writing.
Not derived from but certainly influenced by. So what?

You've posted that same stuff ad infinitum.
 
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Der Alte

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Jipsah said:
If I were a Jew I would certainly be impressed.
Not derived from but certainly influenced by. So what?
You've posted that same stuff ad infinitum.
The concept of hell "certainly influenced by Dante's "Inferno?" I have shown historical evidence that among Jews before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of eternal of fiery punishment, ca. 1600 years before Dante scribbled one line. It is far more likely Dante got his ideas from the Jews.
Two, more recent threads on this topic were suddenly shut down, I wanted to keep the discussion going.
The same "Hell no!" arguments and the same "out-of-context" verses are posted repeatedly. Strange, I don't see anyone complaining about it.
Surely those who think that "there is no hell" should be able to put me in my place without breaking a sweat. Here I am.
 
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Der Alte

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The main issue of the OP is following a teaching from the Garden of Eden
Genesis 3:4
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Please do not attempt to tell me what my OP is about if you can't get it right. If you want to talk about the Garden of Eden start your own thread.
 
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Der Alte

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Bumping this thread.
About the fate of the unrighteous Jesus taught,
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.Matthew 18:6 [A fate worse than death. DA]
• “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. …And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. Matthew 26:24 [A fate worse than death]
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
[A fate worse than death. DA]
…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, c.f. Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and Talmud, supra.
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death, without mercy, is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. [A fate worse than death. DA]
…..how much sorer punishment,””Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord,””It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” these deprecations certainly do not sound like everyone will be saved, no matter what.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say “eternal death,” in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment/aionios kolasis.
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, see Acts of the Apostles 23:8. They knew that everybody died; rich, poor; young, old; good, bad; men, women; children, infants; sick, healthy, and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment.
When Jesus taught, e.g., “eternal punishment” the Sadducees would not have understood it as simply death, it very likely would have meant something worse to them.
…..Re: Matt 25:46 concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,
“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
…..Jesus attended Temple and synagogues for about 25 years +/-. He undoubtedly knew what the Jews believed about the fate of the unrighteous. He opposed the Jewish leaders many times, If the Jewish teaching on hell was wrong, why wouldn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, e.g.
"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"([Judith xvi:17] Judith xvi. 17).
Link: Judith, CHAPTER 16
 
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Original Happy Camper

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Bumping this thread.
About the fate of the unrighteous Jesus taught,
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.Matthew 18:6 [A fate worse than death. DA]
• “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. …And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. Matthew 26:24 [A fate worse than death]
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
[A fate worse than death. DA]
…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, c.f. Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and Talmud, supra.
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death, without mercy, is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. [A fate worse than death. DA]
…..how much sorer punishment,””Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord,””It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” these deprecations certainly do not sound like everyone will be saved, no matter what.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say “eternal death,” in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment/aionios kolasis.
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, see Acts of the Apostles 23:8. They knew that everybody died; rich, poor; young, old; good, bad; men, women; children, infants; sick, healthy, and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment.
When Jesus taught, e.g., “eternal punishment” the Sadducees would not have understood it as simply death, it very likely would have meant something worse to them.
…..Re: Matt 25:46 concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,
“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
…..Jesus attended Temple and synagogues for about 25 years +/-. He undoubtedly knew what the Jews believed about the fate of the unrighteous. He opposed the Jewish leaders many times, If the Jewish teaching on hell was wrong, why wouldn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, e.g.
"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"([Judith xvi:17] Judith xvi. 17).
Link: Judith, CHAPTER 16
un

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Malachi 4:3

And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.
 
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Der Alte

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un
Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Malachi 4:3
And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.
A very good example of selective out-of-context quoting. Malachi is not relevant because he is only speaking about what happens on one day in ancient Israel. Note, "in the day I shall do this." Also there will not be any saints in hell treading down the wicked.
Matt 10:28 Jesus did NOT say "Will destroy both body and soul in hell." What God created He is certainly able to destroy.
Also we need to look at other verses where Jesus was speaking about the fate of the wicked. see e.g. Matt 25:46

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[p. 96]
…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[p. 518]
In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correction” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. One cannot translate a noun as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
…..It is understood that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.
 
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P1LGR1M

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Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Your doctrine forces you to change what is written to this:


And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to kill both soul and body in hell.


There is a difference between someone being killed and someone being destroyed. You might want to take a look at the meaning of the words used in this verse and where it is used elsewhere.

And you will do this if truth is more important to you than a System of Theology.


Malachi 4:3
And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

As Der Alte pointed out, this has a temporal context, not an eternal context.


God bless.
 
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P1LGR1M

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A very good example of selective out-of-context quoting. Malachi is not relevant because he is only speaking about what happens on one day in ancient Israel. Note, "in the day I shall do this." Also there will not be any saints in hell treading down the wicked.
Matt 10:28 Jesus did NOT say "Will destroy both body and soul in hell." What God created He is certainly able to destroy.
Also we need to look at other verses where Jesus was speaking about the fate of the wicked. see e.g. Matt 25:46

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[p. 96]
…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[p. 518]
In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correction” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. One cannot translate a noun as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
…..It is understood that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.

My friend, you really need to put the cookie jar down on the bottom shelf. You are making some great points but I think many will not take the time to read what you are presenting, which is a shame, because there's some really good stuff in there.

Break it up a little for them.

God bless.
 
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Der Alte

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My friend, you really need to put the cookie jar down on the bottom shelf. You are making some great points but I think many will not take the time to read what you are presenting, which is a shame, because there's some really good stuff in there.
Break it up a little for them.
God bless.
I'm working on it. ;)
 
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