(Rethinking) Gender

[ClarityofPurpose]

I don't have a problem with this except for the fact that we have no known method of "fixing the mind", at least in the case of GID. Studies appear to show that the gender of the brain is set sometime between the time a baby is born to possibly as late as the first year. Until we find a way of reversing the brain to reset it's gender, can you find me another treatment that has an equivalent or better success rate?

Why cut off your nose to spite your face? Success is a matter of perception. I cannot call mutilating a healthy body to comfort a damaged mind success.

 

[ClarityofPurpose]

So basically, despite having no idea what it is like, what the causes are, or really anything about it, you think you are qualified to tell me what I should do with my life?

I do not need to have the same experiences as you to "know what it is like" nor do I need to have the same problems as you to be able to discuss with you the moral and ethical thing to do.

Sorry if you disagree.

 

[quatona]

By that logic only people who have murdered should discuss murder, only people who have been molested should discuss molestation. Only people with dogs can discuss dog poop on someone lawn.

I notice that every single example you have given was about interaction, whereas the topic is the suffering and condition of a single person.
I agree, however, in that the statement "only those who are transgender" was too narrow. I would include experts in this field, but certainly not people who talk from their purely religious/philosophical pov about something they have no profound knowledge about.

 

[ClarityofPurpose]

I notice that every single example you have given was about interaction, whereas the topic is the suffering and condition of a single person.
I agree, however, in that the statement "only those who are transgender" was too narrow. I would include experts in this field, but certainly not people who talk from their purely religious/philosophical pov about something they have no profound knowledge about.

AH so what you are saying is - only those people who agree with you should be allowed to contribute to the conversation? Or do I misunderstand you?

 

[Mumei]

By that logic only people who have murdered should discuss murder, only people who have been molested should discuss molestation. Only people with dogs can discuss dog poop on someone lawn.

No, that's not quite correct.

In most situations, people have comparable experiences. They know how it feels to be angry enough at someone to want to kill them - but don't do it because they know it is wrong. They know how it feels to be just too lazy to do something, as in the case with the person and dog poop on someone's lawn. The only case you mentioned where I can't see someone getting a grip on conceptualizing it is being molested.

In this situation, no one who is not transgender has any set of experiences that allows them to properly understand what it is that they are going through. For example, you can conceptualize my being gay by saying, "I don't understand why he likes men that way - but I can get a grasp of it by saying, "He likes men the way I like women."

There's no similar "comparison" that the average person can make with someone who is transgender. That isn't to say that discussion shouldn't be done - only that the cheap pseudo-philosophy and "suck-it-up" attitudes are even worse in this situation.

I am however interested in your last statement that some people are hormonally one thing while physically another. Would you care you explain what you mean?

This was described to me by a MTF friend, so I may make a mistake; don't jump on me for it, please, thanks, 'kay? Excellent.

Take, for instance, a MTF . In this situation, what is between her legs is male genitalia. Penis and testes. Her body, however, produces a female chemical make-up. Her hormones are female - or rather, the make-up is female.

In this situation, the body's chemical make-up says "female," the physical appearance says "male," and the person "feels" female because the body is saying "female." The dissonance is probably created due to this experience.

 

[quatona]

AH so what you are saying is - only those people who agree with you should be allowed to contribute to the conversation? Or do I misunderstand you?

Yes, you are misunderstanding me, and since nothing in my post stated or implied anything to that effect, I have to wonder how this misunderstanding could come into being, in the first place.

1. I am not an expert
2. I do not have in depth knowledge what the experts say
3. I am not transgender
4. I haven´t advocated any particular solution in this thread.

So at what point do you conclude that my opinion on the subject had played any part in my suggestion to leave the discussion to those who are affected and the experts in this field? And how the heck do you know that the experts agree with me?

 

[ClarityofPurpose]

Yes, you are misunderstanding me, and since nothing in my post stated or implied anything to that effect, I have to wonder how this misunderstanding could come into being, in the first place.

1. I am not an expert
2. I do not have in depth knowledge what the experts say
3. I am not transgender
4. I haven´t advocated any particular solution in this thread.

So at what point do you conclude that my opinion on the subject had played any part in my suggestion to leave the discussion to those who are affected and the experts in this field? And how the heck do you know that the experts agree with me?

You are advocating in favor of one side of the discussion by attempting to silence the other. If you have no position one way or the other, I should think you would accept what ever input you could get.

 

[Mumei]

I do agree that if Expert says ______ and Random Person with no personal knowledge on the subject says _______ - which completely contradicts what said Expert said, you can probably reject it out of hand.

 

[ClarityofPurpose]

No, that's not quite correct.

In most situations, people have comparable experiences. They know how it feels to be angry enough at someone to want to kill them - but don't do it because they know it is wrong. They know how it feels to be just too lazy to do something, as in the case with the person and dog poop on someone's lawn. The only case you mentioned where I can't see someone getting a grip on conceptualizing it is being molested.

In this situation, no one who is not transgender has any set of experiences that allows them to properly understand what it is that they are going through. For example, you can conceptualize my being gay by saying, "I don't understand why he likes men that way - but I can get a grasp of it by saying, "He likes men the way I like women."

There's no similar "comparison" that the average person can make with someone who is transgender. That isn't to say that discussion shouldn't be done - only that the cheap pseudo-philosophy and "suck-it-up" attitudes are even worse in this situation.



This was described to me by a MTF friend, so I may make a mistake; don't jump on me for it, please, thanks, 'kay? Excellent.

Take, for instance, a MTF . In this situation, what is between her legs is male genitalia. Penis and testes. Her body, however, produces a female chemical make-up. Her hormones are female - or rather, the make-up is female.

In this situation, the body's chemical make-up says "female," the physical appearance says "male," and the person "feels" female because the body is saying "female." The dissonance is probably created due to this experience.

Sir, I do not need to be transgendered to understand what feels like to be uncomfortable in your own body. I do not need to be transgendered to understand the confusion and the desire to "feel" right. As for your example, I'm still not clear. Are you saying that the person is producing estrogen? But has male gonads?

 

[Mumei]

Sir, I do not need to be transgendered to understand what feels like to be uncomfortable in your own body. I do not need to be transgendered to understand the confusion and the desire to "feel" right.

I know what it is like to feel uncomfortable with my own body. That doesn't mean that I know what it feels like to have my body telling me one thing, society telling me another thing, and my mind being torn two ways. You really don't understand the experience. Neither of us does.

There is more to female chemical make-up than just estrogen. I'm afraid I can't describe specifics to you; I only got that general information. Essentially, women have more of some chemicals and less of others. More estrogen and less testosterone I suppose would be an example of that. In this example, the person's chemical make-up more closely resembles that of the other sex.

 

[kevin36]

All that I have to decipher your opinion is what I can glean from your posts. If you discount the only available method of effectively dealing with this condition - gender reassignment surgery - then, unless you say otherwise yourself, all I am left with is the assumption that you think that transgendered individuals should simply "tough it out" and wait for God to perform a miracle - which, though possible, is highly unlikely and certainly something that we're not meant to expect. You are correct in saying that all I should infer is what you've said; if I infer something incorrectly out of what you said, then you have no one to blame for misrepresenting your opinion than yourself.

Nice way to make your presumption my fault.

No, again, all you can infer from what I say is WHAT I SAY. Don't try to "decipher" anything. Take what I say as exactly what I say- no more, no less.

This thread has long since departed from being anything even remotely resembling a discussion, so unless something meaningful is presented besides a rehash of what has come before, I'll not be remarking on the subject again.

If anybody wishes to understand my view on it... look at what I've written.

God Bless

 

[Mumei]

No, again, all you can infer from what I say is WHAT I SAY. Don't try to "decipher" anything. Take what I say as exactly what I say- no more, no less.

From what you've written, I can infer that you dislike people attempting to infer anything about you personally from what you write.

This thread has long since departed from being anything even remotely resembling a discussion, so unless something meaningful is presented besides a rehash of what has come before, I'll not be remarking on the subject again.

It doesn't seem like a rehash of what has come before. It seems civil enough and there's plenty of good arguing going on.

 

[SimplyMe]

Why cut off your nose to spite your face? Success is a matter of perception. I cannot call mutilating a healthy body to comfort a damaged mind success.

Except you are trying to add facts that are not in evidence. Despite what you feel is a "damaged mind", the science does not support you. Every indicator supports this is an otherwise healthy mind that is simply the opposite gender of the body. In many ways, rather than calling this "mutilation", it is a surgery to remove an undesired body part -- such as a surgery to remove a tail on children.

Further, I would submit that you are correct, that" Issues such as this must be approached objectively and with reasoning not undue emotion." As such, it seems that your emotional appeals using words such as "mutilation" and "damaged mind" are out of place, especially since the experts and research on this subject objectively disagree with your viewpoints.

 

[ClarityofPurpose]

Except you are trying to add facts that are not in evidence. Despite what you feel is a "damaged mind", the science does not support you. Every indicator supports this is an otherwise healthy mind that is simply the opposite gender of the body. In many ways, rather than calling this "mutilation", it is a surgery to remove an undesired body part -- such as a surgery to remove a tail on children.

Further, I would submit that you are correct, that" Issues such as this must be approached objectively and with reasoning not undue emotion." As such, it seems that your emotional appeals using words such as "mutilation" and "damaged mind" are out of place, especially since the experts and research on this subject objectively disagree with your viewpoints.

If the "feelings" are in contradiction with the genetics, it's a damaged mind.

 

[SimplyMe]

If the "feelings" are in contradiction with the genetics, it's a damaged mind.

Sorry, no, that isn't true. Again, I point you to males that have an XX chromosome pair or females with an XY chromosome pair who are extremely happy as their current gender. While genetics is a blueprint, we live in a world where genetics is not always followed in the womb. Further, as I cited in another post, there is evidence that GID is genetic in and of itself.

I've listed objective peer-reviewed scientific studies on the success of GID treatment. Since you insist upon calling this "mutilation", what evidence do you have that shows this treatment does not work, other than your emotional appeals?

 

[Ave Maria]

I think that it is highly possible a human can be born the wrong gender, and it really says nothing about them, its a problem like greasy hair or a bad back. With medical science, society seems to have changed for the better

I agree. People are born with anomalies all the time. A gender anomaly is entirely possible as well. We should treat those with gender anomalies with respect and love.

 

[Secundulus]

Sir, I do not need to be transgendered to understand what feels like to be uncomfortable in your own body. I do not need to be transgendered to understand the confusion and the desire to "feel" right. As for your example, I'm still not clear. Are you saying that the person is producing estrogen? But has male gonads?

From your comments it is clear you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I and others have posted references to research which you apparently don't want to read.

Let me be very clear. The brain and the chromosomal sex develop independently of each other. Most of the time they develop to match. Sometimes, for reasons I have referenced, they do not. Neither the brain nor the body is damaged. They simply are not in agreement. By your continual statements that this is just something about not liking your gonads would indicate to me that you are one of those people that think that gender is just a social construct. It is not. Why is it not? I don't know. I suspect it has something to do with how God put us together.

I have stated that I am transsexual and you may have gathered that I have not transitioned. The reason is primarily because of my current life situation. Also, I am married and to me my first duty is to my wife and not to myself. I will give God the credit for giving me the grace to get past the constant suicidal temptations I was feeling a couple of years ago. But did he cure me, no. Why? You tell me.

To be perfectly honest if I knew when I was 13 what I know now I would have chosen differently. That was when my parents told me I was insane and sent me away to boarding school to get cured. It is also the time I began creating the alternate persona that I present to the world. I get by and have even been pretty successful, despite as you say being mentally damaged. I am who I am regardless of what anyone says or thinks.

And don't even start, like some of the amateur religious psychologists with saying I made this transgender thing up to compensate for some "masculine inadequacy." No, I expect that if we were to begin laying down "macho points" I would probably beat you hands down. If you actually bothered researching the subject you might find this is fairly common.

For tonight, maybe you should pray that prayer of the pharisees and say, "thank you God for not making me like that other guy." For me, I will pray instead, "Thank you God for forgiving my sins and giving me the grace to get through another day. Thy will be done."

 

[quatona]

You are advocating in favor of one side of the discussion by attempting to silence the other.

1. I´m not attempting to silence anyone. I am merely advocating not to pay attention to the uneducated opinions of people who have no knowledge on the subject.
2. I have not been talking nor implying that it was about sides, but about knowledge.

If you have no position one way or the other, I should think you would accept what ever input you could get.

Not so. I certainly prefer the input of knowledgeable experts over that of clueless laymen any time.

 

[KomissarSteve]

Nice way to make your presumption my fault.

I'm not the only one here who thinks this is your opinion, and I'm quite sure that those of us arguing against you aren't conspiring to "misunderstand" your posts.

No, again, all you can infer from what I say is WHAT I SAY. Don't try to "decipher" anything. Take what I say as exactly what I say- no more, no less.

I would be happy to, if you were a little more clear about your complete opinion, instead of leaving as much to the imagination as you have so far.

This thread has long since departed from being anything even remotely resembling a discussion, so unless something meaningful is presented besides a rehash of what has come before, I'll not be remarking on the subject again.

So far you've yet to explain why you believe that a benevolent and just God would want these individuals to live in misery, as they would if they were deprived of the operation.

If anybody wishes to understand my view on it... look at what I've written.

Right, and then wait for you to pop in again and tell us how wrong we are in interpreting your opinion.

 

[HaloHope]

I appreciate that you have a point of view directly affected my your own experiences. I also empathize with your plight, but do not think me unfeeling because I do not agree with your conclusions.

Issues such as this must be approached objectively and with reasoning not undue emotion. As much as I can relate to you wanting to make things right for yourself, I cannot agree that gender reassignment surgery is the right thing to do unless there is a genetic problem which is being corrected.

If a person is genetically male but their mind says otherwise, there can be no doubt but that there is some defect in the mind the same way there is a defect in the mind when a person believes themself to be a tree or a weevil.

Sadly, we have no treatment yet for the mind in cases such as these. In the mean time, until a treatment is developed, we should do everything in our power to make these people as comfortable as possible with who and what they are - verse what they believe themselves to be.

I am curious to know, what exactly would you propose someone suffering with GID should do? I mean if someone was suffering in a similar way to how I myself once was as a result of GID, what steps do you personally believe would be the ethical and moral way of dealing with this before the person involved commited suicide?