Resurrection question

[razeontherock]

Unless you both apologize for

You construct strawmen and throw temper tantrums, and I apologize for it? Ok, I'm sorry you have to be that way.

 

[Feivel]

No one here has any idea of the understanding of Christianity you are working with if you don't tell us.

I'm asking you your understanding of the atonement, not that he didn't atone for the sins of man with his sacrifice. How do you not see the resurrection as integral to atoning for the sins of man? And why does the sacrifice need to be mentioned at all times or it becomes an issue for some reason? Why you are confused by the sacrifice and the resurrection being a part of the faith is really baffling me.

Read the OP over a few times until you see that I quoted Jesus word's saying it is finished. That was speaking about his atonement through the crucifixion . What my understanding of that has to do with his resurrection is beyond nonesense. I guess it was only a matter of time until someone who was trying to answer my OP got tired of their inability to give a clear answer and started questioning me so as to avoid any further attempts at answering.

 

[drich0150]

Let me spell it out for you since you and "Raze" are apparently to stubborn and arrogant to understand. Unless you both apologize for your arrogance and your idiotic and immature questioning of my motives I want nothing further to do with either of you or anything either of you two say. Is that clear enough for you?

So because you can not address the scripture given you wish to challenge our humility now?

then know it is with all honest and my most sincerest apologies to i approach you and ask for you forgiveness for my "stubborn and arrogant understandings, immature questioning of your motives.."

Now will you address the scripture we gave?

 

[Walter Kovacs]

RE the OP

With no risen Christ, we cannot become alive in Christ. Both the death AND resurrection are of equal importance. The death of Christ defeated death. 'It is finished.' Death was trampled down by death. His resurrection opened up the divine to us. From a friend of mine:


"In Romans 4.25 Paul writes that Christ "was delivered up [to death] for our trespasses and raised for our justification." Clearly Paul connects justification not just to the single moment of the crucifixion, but to the resurrection of Christ on the third day afterward. Any view of the atonement which speaks exclusively of Christ’s death as dealing with sin doesn’t do justice to Paul’s understanding of the role our Lord's resurrection played in effecting our justification. 1 Cor 15 not only says "Christ died for our sins..." (1 Cor 15:3) but also, "if Christ has not been raised your faith is futile and you are still in your sins" (1 Cor 15:17). It would seem that for Paul a dead savior is not enough to take away our sins. Restricting the atonement to the single moment of the crucifixion fails to explain why Paul holds the resurrection as integral to justification and essential to the atonement. According to Orthodox theology not only does our salvation reach forward from crucifixion to resurrection and glorification; it extends backward to the sufferings of Christ. Not just by His crucifixion, but by His stripes we are also healed."

 

[Feivel]

So because you can not address the scripture given you wish to challenge our humility now?

then know it is with all honest and my most sincerest apologies to i approach you and ask for you forgiveness for my "stubborn and arrogant understandings, immature questioning of your motives.."

Now will you address the scripture we gave?

Actually to you, no. Your last post to me was reported because you clearly called me a troll so you I want nothing to do with you. "Raze" made it clear he isn't apologizing for his actions. Basically what I am saying is that you two are doing nothing but wasting bandwidth here because I am not listening to either of you. I came here with an honest question and to be brutally honest, I have even sent in a report telling the mods that if I leave here (and it will happen tonight if these childish accusations don't stop) it will be you and "Raze" that ran me off this site. I don't believe in Christianity but if I was ever inclined to, I would think about you and "Raze" and forget the idea.

 

[razeontherock]

Read the OP over a few times until you see that I quoted Jesus word's saying it is finished. That was speaking about his atonement through the crucifixion . What my understanding of that has to do with his resurrection is

It's absolutely essential, to even begin to address the premise of your concern.

 

[Feivel]

RE the OP

With no risen Christ, we cannot become alive in Christ.

That is not clear to me. If the atonement was made by his death, where does the bible say we can't partake of it unless he was resurrected? When I am given scriptural answers at least they are clear (even if I misunderstand them) but when I am being given personal interpretations they are just muddying the waters and making this very unclear.

 

[ElijahW]

Read the OP over a few times until you see that I quoted Jesus word's saying it is finished. That was speaking about his atonement through the crucifixion . What my understanding of that has to do with his resurrection is beyond nonesense. I guess it was only a matter of time until someone who was trying to answer my OP got tired of their inability to give a clear answer and started questioning me so as to avoid any further attempts at answering.

You are just dodging answering simple questions. Why would you do that, instead of taking the time to write a couple paragraphs explaining what you think is going on, so the rest of us in the discussion can get some idea of the difficulty you are having with the verse?

What do you think he means with "it is finished"? The whole plan for mankind's salvation or his individual work? Or something else totally different? See if you explained how you think Jesus is atoning for mankind on the cross I would know where the conversation needs to go.

 

[razeontherock]

I came here with an honest question and to be brutally honest, I have even sent in a report telling the mods that if I leave here (and it will happen tonight if these childish accusations don't stop) it will be you and "Raze" that ran me off this site.

We have shone pure Light to you, as has Walter. If that repels you, who is to blame? To make no attempt to process info given in response to a query is strange, but such is "the offense of the Cross."

 

[Feivel]

You are just dodging answering simple questions. Why would you do that, instead of taking the time to write a couple paragraphs explaining what you think is going on, so the rest of us in the discussion can get some idea of the difficulty you are having with the verse?

What do you think he means with "it is finished"? The whole plan for mankind's salvation or his individual work? Or something else totally different? See if you explained how you think Jesus is atoning for mankind on the cross I would know where the conversation needs to go.

It is finished means his sacrifice is finished. Last question I am answering on this thread PERIOD. Now count yourself as another cause if I do leave this forum tonight.

 

[ElijahW]

That is not clear to me. If the atonement was made by his death, where does the bible say we can't partake of it unless he was resurrected? When I am given scriptural answers at least they are clear (even if I misunderstand them) but when I am being given personal interpretations they are just muddying the waters and making this very unclear.

How could we partake in the salvation unless the ressurection is possible? How is salvation from death possible to someone who believes in the resurrection of the dead but turns out to be incorrect and there is no resurrection?

 

[ElijahW]

It is finished means his sacrifice is finished. Last question I am answering on this thread PERIOD. Now count yourself as another cause if I do leave this forum tonight.

Come back when you can explain yourself a little better and maybe we can offer better assistance.

 

[Feivel]

How could we partake in the salvation unless the ressurection is possible? How is salvation from death possible to someone who believes in the resurrection of the dead but turns out to be incorrect and there is no resurrection?

Who said anything about the resurrection being impossible. I don't appreciate having words attributed to me that I never said. So tell me, did I say the resurrection was impossible? If it wasn't me, who in this thread are you referring to?

 

[ElijahW]

Who said anything about the resurrection being impossible. I don't appreciate having words attributed to me that I never said. So tell me, did I say the resurrection was impossible? If it wasn't me, who in this thread are you referring to?

Paul. The one worried about his faith being in vain if Jesus wasn't raised.

edit

Good job misunderstanding something to respond to, instead of responding to the basic questions asked of you!!

 

[drich0150]

Actually to you, no. Your last post to me was reported because you clearly called me a troll so you I want nothing to do with you. "Raze" made it clear he isn't apologizing for his actions. Basically what I am saying is that you two are doing nothing but wasting bandwidth here because I am not listening to either of you. I came here with an honest question and to be brutally honest, I have even sent in a report telling the mods that if I leave here (and it will happen tonight if these childish accusations don't stop) it will be you and "Raze" that ran me off this site. I don't believe in Christianity but if I was ever inclined to, I would think about you and "Raze" and forget the idea.

So, again you have proved your actions to be deceitful. You demanded an apology for my actions and said your participation would only continue when you got one and now, you have again changed your mind.

Maybe you should take an honest look at your actions before you climb back upon your moral high horse.

I have pointed examples out deceit, hypocrisy, flaming, and trolling all to be found with in the boundaries of your own words and deeds. If you "leave" We (the mods and the members) know it will not be long before you realize that you can simply open another account (if your are not already a current agitator, which by the way you have compiled your message/challenges there is evidence that you are) with another email account. That is unless you had your pride wounded greatly enough to leave well enough alone.

You are not the innocent you are making yourself out to be. I have shown again and again that your intentions are not honorable as you have fooled yourself into thinking they are. to which i have no more qualms in pointing out your misdeeds.

Watch What you say, because i will be.

 

[Feivel]

Paul. The one worried about his faith being in vain if Jesus wasn't raised.

edit

Good job misunderstanding something to respond to, instead of responding to the basic questions asked of you!!

And good job being such an ambassador for Jesus in post #52. Now please stop wasting your time replying to me.

 

[Feivel]

So, again you have proved your actions to be deceitful. You demanded an apology for my actions and said your participation would only continue when you got one and now, you have again changed your mind.

Maybe you should take an honest look at your actions before you climb back upon your moral high horse.

I have pointed examples out deceit, hypocrisy, flaming, and trolling all to be found with in the boundaries of your own words and deeds. If you "leave" We (the mods and the members) know it will not be long before you realize that you can simply open another account (if your are not already a current agitator, which by the way you have compiled your message/challenges there is evidence that you are) with another email account. That is unless you had your pride wounded greatly enough to leave well enough alone.

You are not the innocent you are making yourself out to be. I have shown again and again that your intentions are not honorable as you have fooled yourself into thinking they are. to which i have no more qualms in pointing out your misdeeds.

Watch What you say, because i will be.

Have fun with your circlejerk. I hope you understand you just made Jesus puke with your actions.

 

[ElijahW]

And good job being such an ambassador for Jesus in post #52. Now please stop wasting your time replying to me.

I'm not an ambassador... I'm a servant. I'm sorry you found my post rude but there isn't much that can be discussed with someone who refuses to explain themselves. Either because you know telling us your beliefs would be the source or ridicule or because you haven't thought any of this out and Christianity is just a story you heard in passing that you've never really looked into before.

 

[hedrick]

Surprisingly, given the detailed theological standards for ideas such as the Trinity, there's not such a single official explanation for the atonement. The Bible uses more than one image, and there are a number of ideas out there. You don't have to choose: several can be true.

However most of them involve the idea that Christ is in some way united with and identified with us, so that he experiences our sin and takes it on, and we experience his triumph over sin and are regenerated by it.

The reason the resurrection is an essential part is because redemption isn't just him taking the suffering that we deserve, but also his triumphing over it. If he just died, we don't get anything different through him than if we just die. But if he goes through death and comes out the other side then through him we do too.

 

[razeontherock]

Kinda like why there was a ruckus over Jesus Christ Superstar ...