Resurrection, First Resurrection and New Birth

[Zao is life]

So, i will take this as a reluctant admission that Premil has no corroboration for its opinion of the first resurrection.

Believe what you will. Your rocket is lost in space because you've lost ground control. Your rocket = "spiritual" resurrection. Ground control = bodily resurrection by virtue of a new birth from above, by the Spirit, and the death and bodily resurrection of Christ.

 

[Zao is life]

The martyred souls in Rev 20 were not resurrected from the dead. You are adding 'resurrection' to the verse, but it is not there.

Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The verse simply says that John saw disembodied souls with Christ in heaven. And I know heaven is not mentioned in the verse, but since that is where Christ went when He ascended to the Father, it is correct to view these souls as being in heaven and not on the earth.

As I said there is no mention of resurrection in the verse, and for that matter the verse does not even say they had to come to life, but only that John saw those who have physically died in heaven, living and reigning with Christ a thousand years.

There is no physical life mentioned here because the souls are spiritual bodies, not physical bodies. They died in faith, so in death they went as spiritual body to be with the Lord in heaven through His life giving Spirit in them. Them leaving the natural body and being raised to heaven as a spiritual body is only possible because in life they partook of the first resurrection from the dead; i.e. Christ, Jesus our Lord.

You've just taken away from the scriptures to force-fit your theology:

...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years.

It's because of the fact that you ignore the context of scripture so that you can force-fit the square peg of your eisegesis into the Bible's perfectly round spiritual birth and bodily resurrection that your rocket is lost in space because you've lost ground control. Your rocket = "spiritual" resurrection. Ground control = bodily resurrection by virtue of birth from above by the Spirit of God, and the death and bodily resurrection of Christ. Your rocket is lost in space.

 

[Zao is life]

My interpretation is that it was Messiah that was cut off (Daniel 9:26) and it’s believing Israel that becomes beheaded. So those who were resurrected in Matthew 27:51-53 can be seen as those who were beheaded in Revelation 20:4.

Recognizing that it’s the first resurrection does help to eliminate some views, I don’t build an entire doctrine around that but I won’t ignore it either. Until you can show a reasonable explanation of how the first resurrection can be future while a resurrection has already taken place in the past, I can’t accept your view on this.

It's easy if you believe the Bible (every part of it).

Paul knew what he was talking about. It's you who doesn't know what you're talking about:

1 Cor 15
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since death is through man, the resurrection of the dead also is through a Man.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;

I'm not going to explain it to you. You need to let scripture adjust your thinking instead of allowing your thinking to adjust what scripture says.

 

[rwb]

You've just taken away from the scriptures to force-fit your theology:

...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years.

It's because of the fact that you ignore the context of scripture so that you can force-fit the square peg of your eisegesis into the Bible's perfectly round spiritual birth and bodily resurrection that your rocket is lost in space because you've lost ground control. Your rocket = "spiritual" resurrection. Ground control = bodily resurrection by virtue of birth from above by the Spirit of God. Your rocket is lost in space.

Where is there any mention of the beheaded souls in heaven having been resurrected (v4)? They lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years...this is the first resurrection. Which is not bodily, but spiritual through the resurrection of Christ, because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God (1Co 15:50). The rest of the dead do not live and reign with Christ a thousand years, so how can they be among the first resurrection? The rest of the dead are in fact those who will be bodily resurrected for the Great White Throne Judgment after Satan has his little season. They are not the living and reigning with Christ, they are "THE DEAD".

 

[Zao is life]

If Christ had not been the first resurrection from the dead, to die no more, then no human could be born again by His Spirit in us. It was at Pentecost that the Spirit was given to indwell every believer, giving them Spiritual life. Christ had to die, defeat death and return to the Father so He could send His life giving Spirit to us. Then the Holy Spirit will give believers everlasting spiritual life.

John 16:7 (KJV) Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Again, this is only possible through the cross and resurrection of Christ. So once again this shows that the resurrection life we possess through His Spirit is not of our bodies being resurrected on the last day, but is partaking via our spirit, of the resurrection of Christ. We most assuredly must partake of the first resurrection through Christ' resurrection when we are born again. For this is the only way we are saved from the second death.

So even though Christ says we must be born from above spiritually, and not spiritually resurrected, we must nonetheless claim our part in the resurrection of Christ (first) to be saved, and enter the Kingdom of heaven.

When did you die spiritually? If you have been resurrected spiritually you must have been alive spiritually, died spiritually and then were resurrected spiritually.

You were born dead spiritually. You were not "resurrected" spiritually. It's not me who told you that you needed to be born from above by the Spirit of God.

 

[Zao is life]

Where is there any mention of the beheaded souls in heaven having been resurrected (v4)? They lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years...this is the first resurrection. Which is not bodily, but spiritual through the resurrection of Christ, because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God (1Co 15:50). The rest of the dead do not live and reign with Christ a thousand years, so how can they be among the first resurrection? The rest of the dead are in fact those who will be bodily resurrected for the Great White Throne Judgment after Satan has his little season. They are not the living and reigning with Christ, they are "THE DEAD".

The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. ..

If you can't read and take the text at face value then there's no point me trying to help you. Your rocket is lost in space because you've lost ground control. Your rocket = "spiritual" resurrection. Ground control = bodily resurrection by virtue of new birth from above by the Spirit of God, and the death and bodily resurrection of Christ. Until you were born from above by the Spirit of God, you were never alive spiritually so that you could die spiritually and experience "spiritual" resurrection.

 

[sovereigngrace]

When did you die spiritually? If you have been resurrected spiritually you must have been alive spiritually, died spiritually and then were resurrected spiritually.

You were born dead spiritually. You were not "resurrected" spiritually. It's not me who told you that you needed to be born from above by the Spirit of God.

That is your own faulty reasoning. We are born spiritually dead. Your problem is: you have no concept of total depravity, which is sad, because this is 101 Christianity. A young unindoctrinated convert can grasp the reality that we are born in sin and shapen in iniquity. Until you grasp this, you will never see your need of spiritual resurrection.

 

[rwb]

When did you die spiritually? If you have been resurrected spiritually you must have been alive spiritually, died spiritually and then were resurrected spiritually.

Spiritual life comes through the Spirit in me. I had not life through His Spirit before I believed the Gospel by grace through faith and the power or the Spirit. Before I was given spiritual life forever, I had only natural life from physical birth.

You were born dead spiritually. You were not "resurrected" spiritually. It's not me who told you that you needed to be born from above by the Spirit of God.

According to the Scripture, I was in need of new birth because my natural spirit was destined to die when my body breathed its last breath. Therefore to have life through His Spirit that would never die, I had to be born again of His Spirit. This I did by partaking of the first resurrection, which is to have part in the resurrection life of Christ, who is the first to be resurrected from the dead to never die again. In this manner I have been resurrected to spiritual life through the resurrection of Christ. So, praise be to God alone, I am of the first resurrection which began with my new birth in Christ.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Spiritual life comes through the Spirit in me. I had not life through His Spirit before I believed the Gospel by grace through faith and the power or the Spirit. Before I was given spiritual life forever, I had only natural life from physical birth.



According to the Scripture, I was in need of new birth because my natural spirit was destined to die when my body breathed its last breath. Therefore to have life through His Spirit that would never die, I had to be born again of His Spirit. This I did by partaking of the first resurrection, which is to have part in the resurrection life of Christ, who is the first to be resurrected from the dead to never die again. In this manner I have been resurrected to spiritual life through the resurrection of Christ. So, praise be to God alone, I am of the first resurrection which began with my new birth in Christ.

He does not seem to understand or believe in original sin or total depravity. He will never grasp spiritual resurrection until he sees that man outside of Christ is spiritually dead.

 

[rwb]

The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. ..

If you can't read and take the text at face value then there's no point me trying to help you. Your rocket is lost in space because you've lost ground control. Your rocket = "spiritual" resurrection. Ground control = bodily resurrection by virtue of new birth from above by the Spirit of God, and the death and bodily resurrection of Christ. Until you were born from above by the Spirit of God, you were never alive spiritually so that you could die spiritually and experience "spiritual" resurrection.

I think you are right! One of us is certainly having difficulty with the FACT that birth from above is partaking of the first resurrection through Christ. Since these martyred souls in Rev 4, in life, partook of resurrection spiritual life, or new birth from above, in Christ, John sees them STILL living in heaven, because the spiritual life they received by partaking of the first resurrection in Christ, means their spirit would never die. That's how John sees disembodied souls (living spirits) in heaven even though their bodies had died on earth.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Believe what you will. Your rocket is lost in space because you've lost ground control. Your rocket = "spiritual" resurrection. Ground control = bodily resurrection by virtue of a new birth from above, by the Spirit, and the death and bodily resurrection of Christ.

What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct physical resurrection days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+?

 

[Zao is life]

Where is there any mention of the beheaded souls in heaven having been resurrected (v4)? They lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years...this is the first resurrection. Which is not bodily, but spiritual through the resurrection of Christ, because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God (1Co 15:50). The rest of the dead do not live and reign with Christ a thousand years, so how can they be among the first resurrection? The rest of the dead are in fact those who will be bodily resurrected for the Great White Throne Judgment after Satan has his little season. They are not the living and reigning with Christ, they are "THE DEAD".

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So according to your eisegesis, the last nearly 2,000 years has seen saints being beheaded for their testimony to Christ and for the Word of God and for their refusal to worship the beast or receive his mark, and the same people who have been beheaded (and there are by now billions of them) have been living and reignng with Christ for the last nearly 2,000 years.

Wow. Pipe-smokin' stuff. The things that inspire science fiction novels. I don't know if I've been missing something but I haven't ever come across any headless people walking around alive since I was born.

 

[Zao is life]

What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct physical resurrection days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+?

I won't tell where they are. You won't understand.

You gotta crawl before your can walk brother. This isn't the kind of school where we will promote you to the next level "anyway" even though you have been dismally failing at the level you are stuck on. Your rocket is lost in space because you've lost ground control. Your rocket's name is "Eisegesis" and ground control is a bodily resurrection which comes by virtue of a new birth from above by the Spirit and the death and bodily resurrection of Christ.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I won't tell where they are. You won't understand.

You gotta crawl before your can walk brother. This isn't the kind of school where we will promote you to the next level "anyway" even though you have been dismally failing at the level you are stuck on. Your rocket is lost in space because you've lost ground control. Your rocket's name is "Eisegesis" and ground control is a bodily resurrection which comes by virtue of a new birth from above by the Spirit and the death and bodily resurrection of Christ.

Obviously, you have no support for your position. If you had, you would have given it long before now. But your continued avoidance speaks loud and clear. I do not know how you are happy holding to a doctrine that carries no other clear support and which interprets the rest of Scripture through the lens of one highly symbolic chapter, which is the most debated chapter in the Bible.

Until you furnish us with biblical support for your theory re Rev 20 you have no right to question what the rest of us believe. It is normally people like this that cause others of being in error.

 

[Zao is life]

Obviously, you have no support for your position. If you had you would given it long before now. But your continued avoidance speaks loud and clear. I do not know how you are happy holding to a doctrine that carries no other clear support and which interprets the rest of scripture through the lens of one highly symbolic, which is the most debated chapter in the Bible?

Until you furnish us with biblical support for your theory re Rev 20 you have no right to question what the rest of us believe. It is normally people like this that cause others of being in error.

No you've failed and are still failing. I have a principle about not answering people whose ears are dull of hearing. I can answer you because it's all in the Bible, but you don't believe the Bible with respect to everything it says but you have chosen to read into it things that are not there, and hence you are stuck where you are. You cannot be promoted to the next level while you are failing the subjects in the level you are stuck in now.

 

[DavidPT]

I think you are right! One of us is certainly having difficulty with the FACT that birth from above is partaking of the first resurrection through Christ. Since these martyred souls in Rev 4, in life, partook of resurrection spiritual life, or new birth from above, in Christ, John sees them STILL living in heaven, because the spiritual life they received by partaking of the first resurrection in Christ, means their spirit would never die. That's how John sees disembodied souls (living spirits) in heaven even though their bodies had died on earth.

Prior to the first resurrection there would be one big group, that being the dead. When the first resurrection occurs some of that group of the dead live again at that time, while the rest of them don't, thus how there can be rest of the dead following the first resurrection. The point being made about the souls of the martyrs John sees, is not that they remain in that state, not that they live and reign with Christ in that state, but because they have part in the first resurrection they no longer need to remain in that state, thus they are then bodily living and reigning with Christ instead.

To be resurrected means to live again. These martyrs in Revelation 20:4, do they need to live again after they have been martyred? The question that then needs to be asked and answered is this. In what sense do they need to live again after they have been martyred? In the same sense Christ needed to live again after He was martyred, that He needed to live again bodily, or do they need to live again in some other sense altogether after they have been martyred?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Prior to the first resurrection there would be one big group, that being the dead. When the first resurrection occurs some of that group of the dead live again at that time, while the rest of them don't, thus how there can be rest of the dead following the first resurrection. The point being made about the souls of the martyrs John sees, is not that they remain in that state, not that they live and reign with Christ in that state, but because they have part in the first resurrection they no longer need to remain in that state, thus they are then bodily living and reigning with Christ instead.

To be resurrected means to live again. These martyrs in Revelation 20:4, do they need to live again after they have been martyred? The question that then needs to be asked and answered is this. In what sense do they need to live again after they have been martyred? In the same sense Christ needed to live again after He was martyred, that He needed to live again bodily, or do they need to live again in some other sense altogether after they have been martyred?

A few posts back you acknowledged that Jesus is the first resurrection. Can i remind you that that resurrection happened 2000 years ago?

Also, what happens to Christians when they die now? What happens to martyrs? Where do they go?

 

[sovereigngrace]

I won't tell where they are. You won't understand.

You gotta crawl before your can walk brother. This isn't the kind of school where we will promote you to the next level "anyway" even though you have been dismally failing at the level you are stuck on. Your rocket is lost in space because you've lost ground control. Your rocket's name is "Eisegesis" and ground control is a bodily resurrection which comes by virtue of a new birth from above by the Spirit and the death and bodily resurrection of Christ.

Saying you refuse to answer an apt and simple question re Rev 20, I will try another:

What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct judgment days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+?

 

[nolidad]

Posts 2&3 biblically refute your claims.

YOu really think that?????

You do not even understand what the term resurrection means if you believe your own writing!

The word resurrection is: anastasia which mean a standing up AGAIN! In order for us to be resurrected spiritually, we had to be alive spiritually at one point, then died spiritually and then raised AGAIN spiritually!

No where do we see a person resurrected spiritually! We see being born of spirit, we see being born AGAIN (anew), we see being made a NEW creature for the old is passed, but we do not see any human (exept maybe adam and eve) being alive spiritually, died spiritually then restored spiritually.

 

[rwb]

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So according to your eisegesis, the last nearly 2,000 years has seen saints being beheaded for their testimony to Christ and for the Word of God and for their refusal to worship the beast or receive his mark, and the same people who have been beheaded (and there are by now billions of them) have been living and reignng with Christ for the last nearly 2,000 years.

Yep, that pretty pretty much sums it up! Though I cannot say there are billions, but there will certainly be a great multitude that no man can number.