Response to "Doc"

[thelasttrumpet]

Third, just because words are not repeated word-for-word elsewhere does not make them any less scripture than the rest of scripture. “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness” (2 Tim. 3:16). Your entire hermeneutic is to isolate certain texts and then twist and tickle them to your own meaning.

I disagree with your opinion about my “entire hermeneutic.” I could very well say the same thing about your own.

Something all of need to realize is that no one can explain everything without exception in one simple phrase or another. In doing so, it would cause mass confusion and mis-understanding. A little saying I like is: One cannot say everything about something, for then he will end up saying nothing at all. Think about it – Thus, in scripture things will often go unsaid and are to be simply understood or are explained elsewhere. Thus, for there to be more complete understanding of any scripture all scripture must be examined.

I do not disagree with this.

Once, the body is dead the soul cannot repent (Heb. 9:27). Judgment follows immediately. Thus, here a bodily death may be seen in bring forth an eternal death – as there is no repentance after physical death.

Can you prove from the context that the author of Hebrews even has physical death in view here?

Note what the text says, “the LORD will destroy” (compare to Matt. 10:28). Far from disproving my case – you made it! God destroys not only temporarily, but continually and eternally.

I have not “made your case,” because this was a temporal judgment, and has nothing to do with anyone’s post-mortem destiny. You can’t prove otherwise.

Thelasttrumpet asserts,
Thus, we see that it was simply a proverbial expression to denote entire destruction as a nation, or body of people. In neither passage does “soul and body” refer to people on an individual basis.
Last, I checked nations were made up of individual people. Do you have evidence to the contrary? As matter a fact, individual people at times can even refer to whole nations. Nineveh, was the capital and greatest city of Assyria. We find it first in scripture at Genesis 10:11. It is a city from the descendents of Ham, who is representative of the reprobate seed, who shall be destroyed forever and ever from the presence of the Lord.

When I said that the expression “soul and body” doesn’t “refer to people on an individual basis,” I thought I was clear that this meant no one individual’s “soul and body” is being referred to by Jesus (no more than the “soul and body” of any one particular tree is being referred to in Isaiah 10). It’s a proverbial expression. Neither Isaiah nor Christ are to be understood literally here. Christ is using the same expression used by Isaiah to refer to a national judgment against Israel. Neither Christ nor Isaiah has anyone’s post-mortem destiny in view.

Mal. 4:1 states, “For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.” This speaks about a complete judgment (roots and branches). Complete as in every part of one’s being. This includes the soul! Matt. 10:28! Once again you have proven my case.

I have hardly proven your case. If they’re completely destroyed, then they’re dead. Again, you have no proof that there is any part of man that survives death (that’s why the doctrine of the resurrection is so significant).

Thelasttrumpet asserts,
What closes the case on this is the fact that “Gehenna” (the Valley of Hinnom) was an emblem of national judgment against the Jewish nation (see Jer 19, whole chapter).
Close the case. Surely, you jest. Again, nations are made up of individual people.

Christ is speaking of individuals only so far as they make up the nation of Israel. This was a national judgment, in this world. See Jeremiah 19. No post-mortem punishment here.

Thelasttrumpet asserts,
The preaching of an “endless hell” never led anyone to saving faith, or reconciled anyone to God. The doctrine of endless, post-mortem torment is not part of the Gospel. It has no power to free anyone from sin, or lead anyone closer to God.
Really? Be sure to tell Jonathan Edwards. Jonathan Edwards, in preaching on Revelation 6:15-16 said, “Wicked men will hereafter earnestly wish to be turned to nothing and forever cease to be that they may escape the wrath of God.” (John H. Gerstner, Jonathan Edwards on Heaven and Hell [Orlando: Ligonier Ministries], 75). Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God is a classic and we really need more sermons like this today. Great revival came about because of God’s sovereignty in the use of this sermon!

Jonathan Edwards may have produced tormenting terror in the hearts of people, and converted multitudes to his unscriptural belief in endless, post-mortem punishment, but I deny that he ever reconciled anyone to God by preaching any such unscriptural sermons.

Again, you desire to isolate certain scripture away from others to make your claims. You may be able to quote John 3:16, but can you quote John 3:17-18:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I have no problem quoting this verse. What proof do you have that this condemnation pertains to any existence other than this one? What proof do you have that this condemnation extends beyond this temporal world? None at all.

Uhmm, Jesus’ gospel is a little different – complete as compared to yours. Jesus stated that he came to declare the gospel (Luke 4:16-19, et. al.). Now did Jesus ever mention Hell in his discourses? Uhmm? Matthew 5:22; Matthew 8:12; Matthew 13:42; Matthew 24:51; Matthew 25:41,46; Mark 9:43-47; Luke 12:5; Luke 16:23-24; John 5:29. (BTW, all scripture is Christ’s gospel. Thus, any verse on Hell is Christ’s teaching on Hell).

Jesus never once used the word “hell.” You’re putting uninspired words into his mouth. He said “Gehenna,” which we know from Jeremiah 19 was emblematic of a national judgment against Israel.

Thelasttrumpet asserts,
No one was ever freed from bondage to sin or from the carnal mind by believing in endless, post-mortem torment. It is, in fact, anti-Gospel.
The early church, when they taught the almost-Hebrew Christians (Heb. 6:1-2), did not think the doctrine of “eternal punishment” was “anti-Gospel,” rather it was one of the elementary teachings of the church which some had difficulty with.

Neither aionion punishment nor aionion judgment means endless, post-mortem torment, and you have no proof to the contrary.

Some Jews had a difficult time believing that some of Israel would be lost. They misunderstood God’s purpose and plan in election (Rom. 2:28-29; 9; 11) and thus misunderstood much about “eternal judgment.” The plea of the writer of Hebrews was for them to get it – understand, but then the writer states that this was possible “only if the Lord permit” (Heb. 6:3). The situation is similar for Universlaists today.

Thus, our appeal to you, according to scripture, is repent and believe in Jesus and then the doctrine of Hell will begin to become more clear to you. Put away Fudge, stop fudging on scripture, and embrace the Father.

I’ve never read any of Fudge’s works, I’m not fudging on Scripture, and I’ve already embraced the Father.


God bless,
Aaron