Response to "Doc"

[thelasttrumpet]

In Isaiah 66:24, it is said of those who will be excluded from the new heavens and the new earth which the prophet had predicted, "that their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." To show contempt a victorious army would often leave the corpses of the enemy and deny them a proper burial. As a former homicide detective, I have seen these maggots. However, these maggots die when the body changes into another state. Thus, here Isaiah speaks of something different and eternal – non-dying maggots, eternal torture – for the hell-body is never fully consumed. A fire that cannot be quenched …..

The “new heavens and new earth” is not the “eternal state.” It is not a post-mortem, heavenly existence. It is simply a figurative description of the world in the age of the Messianic kingdom – the age in which we live today, and have been living in for nearly 2,000 years. Isaiah envisioned this world as being inhabited by sinners as well as saints (Isa 65:20). We also read of “New Moons,” “Sabbaths” and “dead bodies” (vv. 23-24) – clearly descriptions of a temporal existence. In John’s vision, we find that nations exist there, and are in need of healing (Rev 22:2).

What, then, of fire that “shall not be quenched?” Leviticus 6:12-13 speaks of the fire in the altar as being one that “shall always be burning” and “shall never go out.” Similarly, an “unquenchable fire” is not a fire that burns without end throughout “all eternity.” What we read of in Isaiah 66:24 is simply typical OT language used to describe temporal judgments:

Jeremiah 17:27
“But if you will not heed Me to hallow the Sabbath day, such as not carrying a burden when entering the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath day, then I will kindle a fire in its gates, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.”

Isaiah 34:9-10
“Its streams shall be turned into pitch, and its dust into brimstone; its land shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night or day; its smoke shall ascend forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; no one shall pass through it forever and ever.”

Ezekiel 20:47-48
“Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree and every dry tree in you; the blazing flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be scorched by it. All flesh shall see that I, the LORD, have kindled it; it shall not be quenched.”

And regarding the “undying worms,” it’s just as absurd to argue from Isaiah 66:24 that “immortal maggots” will be endlessly eating away at immortal bodies for “all eternity” as it is to argue from Mark 9:43-47 that some immortal bodies will be missing hands, feet and eyes. Neither Isaiah nor Jesus has the immortal state in view in these verses. Isaiah even specifically refers to those being burned by fire and eaten away by maggots as corpses:

"And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."


It is the "dead bodies" of the wicked that are being eaten by worms and burned with fire. It is those who are dead that are depicted as being “loathsome to all mankind.”

The prophet Daniel 12:1-2 speaks of an appointed time (e.g. 11:35-40) and says of the wicked, that they "shall awake.... to shame and everlasting contempt." Here everlasting is used of the eternal destiny of the wicked – and not just an age.

The timeframe for when this “awakening” was to take place is fixed by the surrounding context. It is said to take place during a “time of trouble” for Daniel’s people (i.e., the Jews), when everyone among his people whose names were found written in the book were “delivered” (Daniel 12:1). Employing hyperbolic language that was common among the Jewish people, Christ speaks of this as taking place at the time of Jerusalem’s destruction: "For then shall there be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matt 24:21; cf. Luke 21:20-23). Christ also told his disciples, “By your endurance you will gain your lives” (Luke 21:10; cf. Matt 24:13). Only those Jews who believed on Christ and heeded his words to flee to the mountains when the time came (Luke 21:21; cf. Matt 24:15-18) were delivered from the awful judgment that fell upon the unfaithful Jewish natin at this time.

It is also said to take place during the time when the “daily sacrifice” would be “taken away,” and the “abomination that makes desolate” would be set up (Daniel 11:31, 12:11; cf. 9:26-27). In Matthew 24:15, 21 (cf. Luke 21:20) Jesus quotes Daniel and refers the language to those events surrounding Jerusalem’s destruction, when the Roman armies began to surround the city. This was the sign of the imminent desolation of the city and temple.

Finally, we read that the time when all the things of which Gabriel spoke would be finished was when the “power of the holy people” was “shattered.” Again, this is a clear reference to the second and final overthrow of the Jewish nation by the Romans in 70 AD.

What of the “awakening” of those who “sleep” that was said to take place at this time? The language of the text does not at all demand a literal interpretation. It was not uncommon among the Hebrew people to use the word “sleep” to represent a state of spiritual stupor or sloth from which an individual or nation was called to “awaken” (Isaiah 29:10, 51:17, 52:1, 60:1; Rom 13:11; 1 Cor 15:34; Ephesians 5:14; 1 Thess 5:4-6). Similarly, “dust” often signifies a low, subjected or degraded condition (Gen 3:14; Psalm 44:25; Isaiah 25:12, 26:5, 29:4; Nahum 3:18), with deliverance from this condition being spoken of as being raised from the dust, shaking oneself from the dust, or awakening from the dust (1 Sam 2:8; 1 Kings 16:2; Psalm 113:7; Isaiah 26:5, 19; 52:2).

The word translated as “everlasting” (olam, which is the Hebrew equivalent of the Greek aion and its adjective, aionios) is a relative term, and denotes a time period of uninterrupted, indefinite duration in this world - not endless duration in “eternity.” While the duration signified by olam is continuous and uninterrupted as long as it lasts, it is never endless in an absolute sense. All duration expressed by olam is limited; not even the longest period expressed by olam extends beyond this temporal world. In light of this usage of olam in the Old Testament, there is no justification for understanding either the “life” or the “shame and contempt” of Daniel 12:2 as referring to anyone’s experience in the immortal state (notice also that it is "contempt" which is said to be olam - this need not be something they experience; as in Isaiah 66:24, it is likely how others view them after their being judged).

Finally, the “life olam” (or aionion life) of Daniel 12:2 is nowhere spoken of in the New Testament as being a post-mortem blessing for anyone. Instead, it is spoken of as something that one can possess and enjoy in this life (see John 3:36, 6:47; 1 John 3:15, 5:11-13, etc.). In John 17:3, Jesus defines this life in the following way: “And this is aionion life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.” This is the life believers enjoy during the Messianic age, not the life that resurrected humans will enjoy in heaven.

The non-elect will NEVER stop sinning.

That anyone will go on sinning for “all eternity” is an unscriptural assertion. Nowhere are we taught that some people will be raised immortal in an imperfect, sinful condition. Paul tells us that those who have died have been set free (“justified&#8221 from sin (Rom 6:7), and we have good reason to think that all who are “made alive in Christ” (i.e., all who die in Adam) will be raised free from sin as well. We are explicitly told that all sinners will be made righteous (Rom 5:18-19), all will be reconciled to God (Col1:15-20) all will be “summed up together” in Christ (Eph 1:10), all will be subjected to Christ (1 Cor 15:28; Phil 3:20-21), and all will worship him as Lord (Phil. 2:10-11).

David Kingdon observes that unbelievers in hell may go on sinning and receiving punishment for their sin, but never repenting, and notes that Revelation 22:11 points in this direction

This verse has absolutely nothing to do with anyone’s post-mortem existence.

They have no desire to stop (Rom. 3:9-17).

These verses have absolutely nothing to do with anyone’s post-mortem existence.

They have no Savior to empower them to stop (2 Tim. 2:24-26).

These verses have absolutely nothing to do with anyone’s post-mortem state (and yes, all people do have a Savior to empower them to stop sinning - 1 Tim 4:10).

Thus, if their sin in Hell is perpetual [occurring continually] then their punishment must necessarily be perpetual – otherwise God would be unjust for rewarding continued unrighteousness!

This is a false conclusion following from a false premise. Scripture speaks of no post-mortem place in the immortal state in which anyone will perpetually sin.

As Hodge states,

Quote:
It is admitted that the doctrine of the perpetuity of the future punishment of the wicked was held by the Jews under the old dispensation, and at the time of Christ. Neither our Lord nor his Apostles ever contradicted that doctrine. They reproved the false teachers of their day for doctrinal errors on many points, but they never corrected their faith in this doctrine. They never teach anything inconsistent with it.

Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology.

1) There were many false doctrines and pagan teachings held by Jew and Gentile alike at that time that were not explicitly “contradicted” by our Lord and his apostles. This doesn’t mean they endorsed the doctrines as truth.

2) It is begging the question to assert that they taught nothing “inconsistent with it.” This can only be asserted under the premise that they did not teach universal salvation. But since they did, this premise is mistaken.

3) The generation of Jews at the time of Christ were the most corrupt and morally depraved of any generation. Apparently, the doctrine of endless, post-mortem punishment (to which many of them held since the time of the Babylonian captivity) didn't succeed in deterring them from their sins.

 

[thelasttrumpet]

Moreover, the punishment of the wicked glorifies God (Rom. 9:14-23).

These verses have absolutely nothing to do with anyone’s post-mortem existence.

Furthermore, the word eternal may mean “endless.” In the Greek, the word “aionios” may be translated as “eternal” or “everlasting.” This word comes from word “aion” meaning primarily “the age” (or, ages of ages, etc.).

"May mean endless?"

Unless “age” means “an endless duration of time” or “eternity,” the adjective form cannot mean “endless” or “eternal.”

Shedd states,
Quote:
An incidental proof that the adjective “aionios” has the unlimited signification when applied to future punishment is the fact that the destiny of lost men is bound up with that of Satan and his angels: “Then shall he say unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matt. 25:41). These are represented in Scripture as hopelessly lost: “The devil that deceived them shall be tormented day and night forever and ever” (Rev. 20:10). The Jews to whom Christ spoke understood the perdition of the lost angels to be absolute. If the positions of the restorationist are true in reference to man, they are also in reference to devils. But Scripture teaches that there is no redemption for the lost angels: “Christ took not on him the nature of angels” (Heb. 2:16).

William Greenough Thayer Shedd and Alan W. Gomes, Dogmatic Theology.

Neither Matthew 25:41 nor any other verse in Scripture teaches the existence of fallen, immortal beings. “The devil” of Revelation 20:10 is not a fallen immortal being, nor is there any scriptural proof that a fallen immortal being is in view here. There was no need for Christ to take on the nature of the heavenly beings in view in Heb 2:16 because such beings are in no need of redemption.

According to Buis, in the NT, “aionios” is used 66 times: 51 times of the happiness of the righteous, two times of the duration of God and His glory, 6 other times of meaning endless [context], and 7 times of the punishment of the wicked. “Aion” is used 95 times: 55 times of unlimited duration, 31 times of duration that has limits, and 9 times to denote the duration of future punishment. A clear example of the usage of the word to express endless duration is seen in 2 Corinthians 4:18 saying, “So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.” Here more than a mere age is the meaning of eternal – as a mere age is “temporary.”

The word translated “temporal” (proskairos) is not used by Paul to contrast limited time with unlimited time. It is simply used to contrast a shorter measure of time (the passing of which is observable) with a longer measure of time (the passing of which is not observable). Christ employs this same word in Matthew 13:21, where it is used in reference to those who hear the Gospel and endure in their faith for only “a short while” (proskairos) in contrast to those who, after hearing the word, keep it and go on to produce fruit.

Paul is contrasting the present period of hardship and suffering he and other believers were experiencing, with the future blessing in store for them that pertains to the Messianic age. He represents their resurrection bodies as being kept for them “in the heavens” (5:1) for an aionion duration of time (Paul speaks of our new bodies as already being in existence because it is so certain that we are to be clothed with them). Because these bodies are incorruptible, Paul pictures them as enduring throughout the coming age until the time comes for mortals to finally acquire possession of them.

Moreover, even if the meaning of “aionios” is “age” (age of ages, or ages of ages), one cannot provide any evidence that “every age” has a termination point. Certainly, the Eternal God will not terminate himself and come to His end? – God is ageless.

1) The meaning of “aionios” is not “age.” Aionios is the adjective form of “age.”
2) There is no scriptural evidence that any age is endless.
3) “Ageless” and “aionion” are two completely different words.

Moreover, one must wonder how an “eternal sin” (Mark 3:29) against the “eternal Spirit” (Heb. 9:14) would not be punished forever and ever. If only for an age of ages, then the Holy Spirit must live only for “an age of ages,” for otherwise He would be offended in that complete justice was not carried out over the remainder of His existence – which is forever and ever – eternity – without end. Thus, the “eternal sin” must necessarily be eternally punished, unless of course one denies the doctrine of the eternal Trinity.

One need not “wonder” at this, for an “aionion sin” is simply a sin that cannot be pardoned during the ages which Christ has in view (the age in which he spoke, and “the age to come” – the Messianic age which began before that generation passed away). And an “unpardonable sin” is not a sin for which endless torment is necessary. It is simply a sin of which it is impossible to escape the consequences (in this case, the sin is ascribing to an evil spirit the power by which Christ worked his miracles). Once committed, one must experience a just punishment. Nowhere, however, is the punishment said to be endless in duration.

Moreover, it is not at all the case that one need deny the doctrine of the Trinity in order to deny the argument above. That the Spirit is said to be aionion does not mean the Spirit is limited to the ages alone. It simply emphasizes the work of God’s Spirit throughout the ages of history, and especially his involvement during the age of the Messianic kingdom.

However, (as has already been brought out by others – as most of what I state here has been …) some of the clearest evidence though that the term “aionios” is meant to teach the endless punishment of the wicked is the fact that the same word is used to describe the blessed life of the godly (Matt. 25:46, etc.). In several instances, the two are used side by side and only the most violent twisting of the meaning of terms could be used to describe otherwise.

There is no scriptural proof that “aionion life” is endless life in heaven.

The fire is eternal.

The fire is aionion, and aionion pertains to an age, or to an uninterrupted, indefinite duration of time – not “eternity.”

The smoke of the torment rises forever and ever.

The words translated “forever and ever” do not mean endless duration (see, for example, Isaiah 34:9-10).Christ is said to reign “forever and ever,” but we know that his reign will end when all become subjected to him (1 Cor 15:24-28).

Hell is eternal punishment (Matt. 25:46) and “eternal punishment” is placed alongside of “eternal life” in such a way that the natural interpretation should keep them parallel.

They are indeed parallel. However, in neither expression is an absolute endless duration denoted. Nor does this verse have anything to do with the post-mortem state.

In addition, the whole understanding of “aionios” does not merely depend on the translation of itself alone. God protected his “words” not only with the context of them, but with other words as well There is the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched:
Quote:
Mark 9: 43-48

If in Mark 9:43-48 Christ is describing that judgment which is elsewhere spoken of as “aionion punishment” (and I fully agree that he is) then “aionion punishment” is a temporal judgment, because it is a temporal judgment that Christ is describing in Mark 9. The word translated “hell” is “Gehenna” (the Valley of Hinnom) which, since Jeremiah’s day, had become an emblem of national judgment upon Israel.

Additionally, the continual nature of God’s just punishment is seen in Revelation 4:11, where it is said that the wicked, “will have no rest day or night.”

This verse has absolutely nothing to do with anyone’s post-mortem existence. "Day or night" denotes temporality.

Jude 7 speaks of the punishment of “eternal fire.”

This verse has absolutely nothing to do with anyone’s post-mortem existence.

The endlessness of this punishment is also confirmed by the forceful pronouncement in Revelation 20:10, “They will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”

This verse has absolutely nothing to do with anyone’s post-mortem existence.

 

[thelasttrumpet]

Moreover, the very meaning of the term “immortal” would also discount the Universalist’s case. We see the immortality of the soul in Matthew 28:
Quote:
Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

The Greek word for kill is apokteino meaning to kill physically (Matt. 14:5; John 18:31; Rev. 2:13; 9:15; 11:13; 19:21). However, according to our text a person's SOUL (psuche) CANNOT be killed. Why? The soul is not physical but spiritual and immortal (see 1 Cor. 15:35-58). But, the "soul and body" together can be "destroyed" in hell. While the Greek word here is apollumi meaning "to destroy utterly" or "to perish" (Luke 13:3, 5; John 3:16; 10:28; 17:12; 1 Cor. 15:18; 2 Cor. 2:15; 4:3; 2 Thes. 2:10; 2 Pet. 3:9), this word apollumi cannot mean "annihilation" as some people argue. According to W.E. Vine the "idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being" (under "destroy") [no substance has ever been totally destroyed]. Besides this definition (and others like it), we know it does not refer to total extinction of being because the same word is used of demons in Luke 4:34 and Mark 1:24. But, the fate of demons is “eternal torment” not annihilation. Hence, "destroy" cannot mean annihilation or total extinction in this context.

1) Christ is not teaching the “immortality of the soul” in Matthew 10:28. The words “immortal” and “immortality” are not even used in this verse.

Of all places, Doc refers to 1 Corinthians 15:35-58 as proof that “the soul is not physical but spiritual and immortal.” But 1 Cor 15 is all about the resurrection of the dead - not “life after death” as an “immortal soul.” To even reference a verse from 1 Corinthians 15 in order to support the pagan notion of the “immortality of the soul” is to mock the scriptural doctrine of the resurrection. Our being “made alive in Christ” is our only hope of immortality; it is not an inherent aspect of our nature.

2) Christ is addressing his own disciples in private, on a particular occasion. These words were never repeated to them again. Nor was this language ever used by Christ or by any of his apostles in preaching to others. If the text involves the doctrine of “endless misery,” one would think that Jesus and his disciples would have plainly stated this same threat to the multitudes, and warned them of such a fearful doom. And other than the few times it appears in the synoptic Gospels, “Gehenna” is found only one other time in the NT - and that in an obviously figurative sense (James 3:6).

3) Christ is not talking about a post-mortem judgment. The expression, “destroy both soul and body,” was simply a common proverb of that day – a proverb with which Christ’s disciples were evidently well acquainted, and by which they understood the total destruction of any nation, or body of people, to which it was applied. There is no indication that Christ’s disciples misunderstood what he meant by the destruction "of soul and body in Gehenna." This is evident, because when they did not comprehend his meaning on other occasions, we hear them making all the necessary inquiries. But here, they made none. Thus, from this single circumstance it is evident that they did not learn the meaning of this passage from Jesus, but that it was instead a common proverb of that day.

Proof of this can be found in Isaiah 10:16-18, where we find God threatening a national judgment against Assyria (after having judged Israel):

Therefore the Lord GOD of hosts will send wasting sickness among his stout warriors, and under his glory a burning will be kindled, like the burning of fire. The light of Israel will become a fire, and his Holy One a flame, and it will burn and devour his thorns and briers in one day. The glory of his forest and of his fruitful land THE LORD WILL DESTROY, BOTH SOUL AND BODY, and it will be as when a sick man wastes away. Isaiah 10:16-18

Thus, we see that it was simply a proverbial expression to denote entire destruction as a nation, or body of people. In neither passage does “soul and body” refer to people on an individual basis. This proverbial expression is equivalent to the one we find in Malachi 4:1, where the wicked, as a group, are spoken of as being destroyed “root and branch” (obviously, plants are not literally being referred to here). Christ merely meant to impress upon the minds of his disciples that, if they apostatized for fear of men, God was able to destroy them along with the rest of the Jewish people, as a nation (and that, in such a manner as men were not able to destroy them as a church, or body of believers, under the care of their heavenly Father). In the case of the Jewish nation, their destruction would be final and irretrievable. The Jewish people would never again be restored to national life in their own land, nor enjoy the religion of Moses in their temple worship. But though men could persecute the members of Christ’s church (vv. 16-23), and even put some to death, yet they could never completely exterminate it (for it was built upon the Rock, and “the gates of Hades” could not prevail against it). To use the common proverbs of the day, men alone could not destroy it "soul and body," or "root and branch" (which was an equivalent proverbial expression). Only God himself had the power to do that; but Christ told his disciples to “fear not” (v. 31).

4) What closes the case on this is the fact that “Gehenna” (the Valley of Hinnom) was an emblem of national judgment against the Jewish nation (see Jer 19, whole chapter).

Yes, the doctrine of Hell is to be feared.

The “doctrine of hell” (i.e., endless, post-mortem torment) did not originate with divine revelation, but is of admittedly pagan origin. It’s a God-dishonoring teaching that blasphemes the Savior of the world, and pulls a veil of darkness over the minds of all who embrace it. As such, it should be feared only because of the evil effects it produces.

It should humble us.

No one has ever been humbled by this doctrine. Some have been driven to near insanity by it, but never humbled.

It is horrible to think of this type of existence for anyone.

Indeed; only a depraved mind could think up such a nightmarish idea, and then seek to impose it upon Scripture.

 

[thelasttrumpet]

However, it is a just punishment by the just God (Isa. 9:7; 59:14-21; 63:1-6).

God is indeed just, but none of these verses prove that endless torment is just.

Eternal suffering. Eternal torment. Eternal ???? However, it loses all its power to “snatch one out of the fire” (Jude 23) if it is only temporary in any sense of the term. What type of fear is God saving fear, which may lead to God saving eternal faith if it is only temporary?

The preaching of an “endless hell” never led anyone to saving faith, or reconciled anyone to God. The doctrine of endless, post-mortem torment is not part of the Gospel. It has no power to free anyone from sin, or lead anyone closer to God.

It loses its power – the stubborn heart, which will never seek God, will merely say: I will sit in Hell for 6000 years, but I can look forward to an eternal existence of peace – because I will not longer exist, or I will be in Heaven, or …. (depending on the heresy: (1) everyone goes to Heaven, (2) unbelievers get a second chance, (3) unbelievers are ultimately destroyed, or (4) life after death does not exist.

No one was ever freed from bondage to sin or from the carnal mind by believing in endless, post-mortem torment. It is, in fact, anti-Gospel.

These are they who make separations, sensual, having not the Spirit (Jude 19).

That Jude is describing those who deny the doctrine of endless torment is a baseless assertion. Given what we know about the pagans and the generation of Jews of that time, it is much more likely that those he is describing were firm believers in it.

This false doctrine endorses peace and final rest for those that continue to sin.

The doctrine of endless, post-mortem torment never saved anyone from bondage to sin or the carnal mind.

Thus, it embraces a view of an unjust God – who would be no God at all.

This conclusion does not at all follow.

The belief in the doctrine of an eternal Hell is one of the very foundations of Christianity.

This is false.

This is confirmed by Hebrews 6:1-3, where the writer with fervency writes to these almost-Christians Hebrews:
Quote:
Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And God permitting, we will do so.

Aionion judgment is not endless, post-mortem punishment in "hell." This is neither taught in the Old or New Testament. By "aionion judgment" the author is referring to past or future judgments pertaining to the ages of history (e.g., the age before the Law, the age under the Law, or the age under Messiah). God judges righteously in the earth, in every age of history. This fact is obvious from all who know the Scriptures.

The same term (aioniou) is used by the same writer is used in Hebrews 5:9; 9:14-15, and 13:20 for eternal salvation, eternal Spirit, and eternal inheritance (In 9:12 for “eternal redemption” (aionian)).

In none of these examples does aionion pertain to the post-mortem, immortal state. The salvation, inheritance and redemption in view are enjoyed in this world, and the Spirit is said to be aionion because of his involvement and interaction in the ages of history – especially the Messianic age (which was soon to be established at that time).

 

[bradfordl]

Yer trying hard, trump, but it just ain't a-workin'. Don't you ever get embarassed over your rank eisogesis? You have no shame, even when your own remarks concede your error. I think you know better, you just hate to admit defeat, so you keep regurgitating the same oft-disproven defenses of your heterodoxy. It gets to be ever so tiresome.

 

[DocNH]

Thelasttrumpet responded to my posts here:
http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=44374515#post44374515

Dear thelasttrumpet,

I have given you a response below. However, please note that the majority of your comments are not evidence or even exegesis – just opinion.

Moreover, in places, you state my view as originating from pagans and yet it is your position that has been condemned by the church – not mine [Fifth General Council, "Whoever says or thinks that the torments of the demons and of impious men are temporal, so that they will, at length, come to an end, or whoever holds a restoration either of the demons, or of the impious, let him be anathemas"].

Thus, sense I am here: (1) not to argue with your misleading opinions, but to present a biblical case – which was done in my first post (see link above) and (2) my time is limited, my reply shall be limited to just a few points.

I do pray though that the Spirit of God will communicate His truth to you and that you will be given space to repent of your thoughts on these matters.

Thelasttrumpet asserts,​

The “new heavens and new earth” is not the “eternal state.” It is not a post-mortem, heavenly existence. It is simply a figurative description of the world in the age of the Messianic kingdom – the age in which we live today, and have been living in for nearly 2,000 years. Isaiah envisioned this world as being inhabited by sinners as well as saints (Isa 65:20). We also read of “New Moons,” “Sabbaths” and “dead bodies” (vv. 23-24) – clearly descriptions of a temporal existence. In John’s vision, we find that nations exist there, and are in need of healing (Rev 22:2). ​

Respectfully, this would only be so if we accept your hermeneutic for interpretation. While I would agree that the Kingdom is here and now, I would also state that there is a “now, but not yet” reality to it. In Reformed Theology, the Kingdom of God is seen in three different phases: (1) inauguration, (2) continuation, and (3) consummation of the Kingdom (ICC). In the consummation of the Kingdom we see the eternality of things we read about in the scripture. You may read more concerning this here (What Is The Kingdom Of God?, http://www.thirdmill.org/newfiles/ric_pratt/TH.Pratt.kingdom.of.god.html

However, Isaiah does speak of the Kingdom of God and as Dr. Pratt states, “God will judge the wicked and bring redeemed humanity into a new creation (Isa. 65; Zech. 14).”

Thelasttrumpet asserts,​

What, then, of fire that “shall not be quenched?” Leviticus 6:12-13 speaks of the fire in the altar as being one that “shall always be burning” and “shall never go out.” Similarly, an “unquenchable fire” is not a fire that burns without end throughout “all eternity.” What we read of in Isaiah 66:24 is simply typical OT language used to describe temporal judgments:​

First, Lev. 6 has nothing to do with eternal punishment, thus your comparison is fruitless. Second, you fail to understand the meaning of the text. Leviticus does not say the fire “shall always be burning” and “shall never go out.” You have misrepresented the text. It is rather a precept saying, “Fire shall be kept burning upon the altar continually; it shall not go out.” In other words – you keep the fire burning and do not let it go out.

We must learn to distinguish between God's decrees and God's precepts: (1) the first has to do with what must and what will happen with certainty and (2) the second has to do with what God morally requires of mankind, and has nothing to do with whether man will or can actually do it. God's command here is what He wants man to do on a perceptive level. God's decree determines what actually happens. Concerning Isa. 66, see my reply concerning the three phases of the Kingdom above.

Thelasttrumpet proof text,​

Jeremiah 17:27​

“But if you will not heed Me to hallow the Sabbath day, such as not carrying a burden when entering the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath day, then I will kindle a fire in its gates, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.” ​

Jeremiah says that if they did not keep the Sabbath, God promised to destroy Jerusalem (26:12–19; cf. Mic. 3:12). Judah’s political autonomy would come to an end. Jerusalem would no longer be a place to bring sacrifices and offerings because the temple would have been destroyed. Thus, without the ability for the OT atonement economy all would have been eternally lost – i.e. there would be no redemption.

If there is no redemption: what is the punishment of sin – eternal torment! Physical fire represents eternal torment without Christ (at times we see physical patterns of eternal realities in scripture – Heb. 8:5; 9:23). Thus, this verse strengths our case and weakens yours.

Thelasttrumpet proof text, ​

Isaiah 34:9-10​

“Its streams shall be turned into pitch, and its dust into brimstone; its land shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night or day; its smoke shall ascend forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; no one shall pass through it forever and ever.”​

One wonders why you did not put “generation to generation it shall lie waste” in bold here. Clearly, the author gives us the meaning of verse 9 by saying, “From generation to generation it shall lie waste; no one shall pass through it forever and ever.”

Note that the land still exists – it was not consumed or annihilated (as some maintain), but it is desolate – without God’s presence, similar to those in Hell forever and ever (not spatial separation – for God is omnipresent, but separation from all God’s glory and thus grace(s) and if separated from his graces how could they ever be annihilated?

In 2 Thess. 1:9 – the Greek word olethros (translated “destruction&#8221 is qualified in an important way by the adjective aionios (“eternal&#8221, which serves to stress the idea of duration rather than extinction. The severance is explained not as extinction, but “from the presence of the Lord, and from the gory of his power” (compare Matt. 7:23; 25:41, etc), definitely implying existence. Thus, to be in the presence of God without a Saviour is to be in Hell, for our God is a consuming fire (Heb. 12:29). Since God cannot change, this consuming fire of God does not either and thus Hell is forever. Your view denies the very eternal nature of God himself.

Thelasttrumpet proof text,​

Ezekiel 20:47-48​

“Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree and every dry tree in you; the blazing flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be scorched by it. All flesh shall see that I, the LORD, have kindled it; it shall not be quenched.” ​

First, per Ezek 20:49, this is a parable, which you conveniently left out of the context. One wonders why? Is it to continue to lead others astray?

Second, to talk of a “literal forest fire” in the Negeb is foolishness for those that study scripture know that the Negeb was a great and treeless tract of land in the south of Judah.

Jerusalem is the subject. The word Negeb simply designates the south (and the road from Babylon to Judah approached Jerusalem from the north, leading south). In addition, the forest fire is the avenging sword of the Lord, drawn in judgment against the city in the south. As in the forest fire, both green and dry trees would burn, so in the judgment of Jerusalem, both righteous and wicked would perish physically.

Once again, this verse has nothing to do with eternal punishment, but it does reveal the totality of one’s punishment.

To be continued in next post.

Sincerely,
Doc

 

[DocNH]

continued from last post

Thelasttrumpet asserts,​

And regarding the “undying worms,” it’s just as absurd to argue from Isaiah 66:24 that “immortal maggots” will be endlessly eating away at immortal bodies for “all eternity” as it is to argue from Mark 9:43-47 that some immortal bodies will be missing hands, feet and eyes. Neither Isaiah nor Jesus has the immortal state in view in these verses. Isaiah even specifically refers to those being burned by fire and eaten away by maggots as corpses:​

"And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind." ​

It is the "dead bodies" of the wicked that are being eaten by worms and burned with fire. It is those who are dead that are depicted as being “loathsome to all mankind.”​

Worms eat on “decaying living flesh” before it dies. In some cases, this is how homicide detectives and forensic specialists determine how long someone has been dead. While the body may be dead, the flesh lives on for a time and worms feed upon the bodies living tissues – this is life after death. What is interesting and significant is actually, we do decompose before we die also. The thing is, we keep regenerating as long as we are alive. Skin cells, blood cells, bone cells, etc. are constantly dying and being replaced in the normal course of life. They just are not replaced any more after death.

Normally in the physical nature of things, once the flesh is dead – that is the “living” cells – the worms go away. However, the text says the worms remain (undying worms). Thus, the text teaches us that the unredeemed are stuck in-between total destruction and total renewal. They are not annihilated because the worms are seen as remaining – forever and they are not renewed because they have no Redeemer – they have not resurrection life.


In addition, our God is a consuming fire ….. and those without a Redeemer are eternally consumed. Basically, what we see here in Isaiah is the imagery of Jerusalem’s garbage dump, where unclean corpses were burned, which became symbolic of perpetual punishment and anguish:

Isa. 48:22 There is no peace, saith the LORD, unto the wicked.​

Isa. 57:20 But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt.​

Mark 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.​

In addition, your eschatology is way off balance concerning Dan. 2. You need to do some reading in the area of Amil. Simply Daniel 12:2 is a prediction of the bodily resurrection of the godly and ungodly prior to the final judgment (Matt. 25:46; John 5:28).

Thelasttrumpe asserts,​

The word translated as “everlasting” (olam, which is the Hebrew equivalent of the Greek aion and its adjective, aionios) is a relative term, and denotes a time period of uninterrupted, indefinite duration in this world - not endless duration in “eternity.” While the duration signified by olam is continuous and uninterrupted as long as it lasts, it is never endless in an absolute sense. All duration expressed by olam is limited; not even the longest period expressed by olam extends beyond this temporal world. In light of this usage of olam in the Old Testament, there is no justification for understanding either the “life” or the “shame and contempt” of Daniel 12:2 as referring to anyone’s experience in the immortal state (notice also that it is "contempt" which is said to be olam - this need not be something they experience; as in Isaiah 66:24, it is likely how others view them after their being judged).​

Assertion, but where’s the beef? Where is your evidence? Your one-sided definition of olam is once again incorrect.

In Eccl. 3:1-15 we read of God’s sovereign rule over people. Verse 11 records that God ‘hath made everything beautiful in its time’ and it is a reference to the divine purpose and harmony, which covers all areas of life. People are able to appreciate this providence only because God ‘set the world (olam) in their hearts.’ This implies a desire for “eternal” things which in turn implies a spiritual dimension and nature in man. It reveals the importance of the faculty of appreciating lasting things (H. C. Leupold, Exposition of Ecclesiastes, p. 90). Since this world is only a momentary image of eternal realties (i.e. there will be a New Heaven and a New Earth, et. al. ) olam here infers to “eternity.” God hath set eternity (olam) in our hearts.

Matthew 25:46 needs to be rightfully understood. The term used here means “everlasting.” For example, both in Romans 16:26 and in 1 Timothy 1:17 the word expresses the eternity of God; in Hebrews 9:14 it describes the eternal Spirit, and in Revelation 1:18 the endless reign of Christ. The fact that this same word is used twice in Matthew 25:46, both to describe the duration of “everlasting life” and to describe the duration of Hell, means that one cannot escape the conclusion that when descriptive of hell it has the same meaning.


As I brought up in my first post, the Bible consistently speaks of suffering and loss rather than annihilation after death for unbelievers. Furthermore, the fact that there are degrees of punishment in Hell is incompatible with annihilation. Coupled with the force and use of the adjective aionios and the fact that the character of sinners in Hell does not change, thereby incurring God’s wrath eternally, we must conclude that annihilation has no biblical warrant whatsoever. As J.C. Ryle states:

The misery of the lost, and the blessedness of the saved, are both alike forever: let no man deceive us on this point. It is clearly revealed in Scripture: the eternity of God, and heaven, and hell, all stand on the same foundation. As surely as God is eternal, so surely is heaven an endless day without night, and hell and endless night without day. [Expository Thoughts: Matthew, p. 344].​

Thelasttrumpe asserts,​

Finally, the “life olam” (or aionion life) of Daniel 12:2 is nowhere spoken of in the New Testament as being a post-mortem blessing for anyone. Instead, it is spoken of as something that one can possess and enjoy in this life (see John 3:36, 6:47; 1 John 3:15, 5:11-13, etc.). In John 17:3, Jesus defines this life in the following way: “And this is aionion life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.” This is the life believers enjoy during the Messianic age, not the life that resurrected humans will enjoy in heaven.​

Incorrect, eternal life (soul) begins when one is born into this world. For the elect (who were foreordained before the foundation of the word – Eph. 1) (1) they shall be regenerated and (2) they will be eternally in Heaven with Christ (Rom. 8:30), for the non-elect they will be forever in Hell (Matt. 25:41). The elect have eternal life in the present (I John 5:11-12).


Again, you fail to see the connection between the past, present and consummation ages of the Kingdom. Moreover, you fail to understand the nature of the soul.

Thelasttrumpe asserts,​

That anyone will go on sinning for “all eternity” is an unscriptural assertion.​

Another mere assertion, but where’s your evidence? Who is the non-elect’s Redeemer? They have none. How do these beasts and brutes stop sinning? They cannot because it is their very nature to sin. They do not seek after God – nor can they. God’s justice is eternal and thus his judgment eternal.

Thelasttrumpe asserts,​

Nowhere are we taught that some people will be raised immortal in an imperfect, sinful condition. Paul tells us that those who have died have been set free (“justified&#8221 from sin (Rom 6:7), and we have good reason to think that all who are “made alive in Christ” (i.e., all who die in Adam) will be raised free from sin as well. We are explicitly told that all sinners will be made righteous (Rom 5:18-19), all will be reconciled to God (Col1:15-20) all will be “summed up together” in Christ (Eph 1:10), all will be subjected to Christ (1 Cor 15:28; Phil 3:20-21), and all will worship him as Lord (Phil. 2:10-11).​

Once again you do injustice to the scripture removing it from its full context. Only those united to Christ (Rom 6:5) are justified. In addition, this is not speaking of a physical death, but a spiritual death. Rom. 5:18-19 speaks of MANY, not ALL. The ALL speaks of ALL the elect. While I do not have time to exegete Rom 5:12-18 you can read John Murray’s Redemption Accomplished and Applied for clarification.

In Col. “all things” will be reconciled to Christ, however reconciliation here includes God’s sovereign justice as well. Paul wrote this to Colosee because they had an inadequate view of Christ and it appears Universalists have that same problem not realizing that God is not only a God of 100% love, but also 100% justice.

All will bend their knee (Phil. 2:10-11) in the final consummation of things. Bending the knee - a work – does not mean one is necessarily saved, but conquered. Some have been conquered unto eternal life and others unto eternal death (Amos 9:1-4, etc.).

To be continued in next post.

Sincerely,
Doc

 

[DocNH]

continued from previous post

Thelasttrumpet asserts,​

(and yes, all people do have a Savior to empower them to stop sinning - 1 Tim 4:10). ​

If God desired all men to be saved - who could stop him? None can stay his hand (Dan. 4:35). Many are not chosen (Matt. 22:14). Either God is not sovereign or the text is being improperly understood out of its context. If God is not sovereign – then none could be saved – for he would not have all power to save them. Nor, could the Christian have confidence in his salvation – but even Paul the author of 1 Timothy has confidence (Rom. 8:35-39). So, that leaves the later.

In context:

1 Tim 2:1-4 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.​

The text is rather clear if it remains within its context. The term “all” in this context means “all kinds of men” even “kings” and those “in authority” (who were persecuting the church at this time). Unlike Christ, who prayed for the elect – since he knew whom they were (John 17:9, 19, et. al.), we pray for “all” without exception understanding that only those who God predestined, will be called, justified, glorified, (Rom. 8:30) etc. Thus, God desires, in harmony with His eternal decree, to save all men without distinction (i.e., without respect to rank, station, race, or nationality) and bring them to the knowledge of the truth.

Thelasttrumpe asserts,​

Neither Matthew 25:41 nor any other verse in Scripture teaches the existence of fallen, immortal beings. “The devil” of Revelation 20:10 is not a fallen immortal being, nor is there any scriptural proof that a fallen immortal being is in view here. There was no need for Christ to take on the nature of the heavenly beings in view in Heb 2:16 because such beings are in no need of redemption.​

Again your exegesis is unscriptural. There are elect angels (1 Tim. 5:21) and non-elect angels (Jude 6). God has reserved final judgment for these non-elect angels. All unrepentant sinners will suffer with their master in Hell for eternity (Rev. 19:19-21; 20:10-15).

Thelasttrumpet asserts, concerning 2 Cor. 4:18,​

The word translated “temporal” (proskairos) is not used by Paul to contrast limited time with unlimited time. It is simply used to contrast a shorter measure of time (the passing of which is observable) with a longer measure of time (the passing of which is not observable). Christ employs this same word in Matthew 13:21, where it is used in reference to those who hear the Gospel and endure in their faith for only “a short while” (proskairos) in contrast to those who, after hearing the word, keep it and go on to produce fruit. ​

Paul is contrasting the present period of hardship and suffering he and other believers were experiencing, with the future blessing in store for them that pertains to the Messianic age. He represents their resurrection bodies as being kept for them “in the heavens” (5:1) for an aionion duration of time (Paul speaks of our new bodies as already being in existence because it is so certain that we are to be clothed with them). Because these bodies are incorruptible, Paul pictures them as enduring throughout the coming age until the time comes for mortals to finally acquire possession of them. ​

Once again, let us look at the context of the Scripture:

1 Cor. 4:15-18 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God. For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.​

Now according to your view “eternal” only means a longer period of time. Thus, you are asserting that eternal is but for a “limited time.” – it may be longer, but it is still limited. So, once again your view limits the “grace of God” and “glory of God” (vs. 15) to limited periods of time. This means [by your definition] that God is not really God because He has limited glory – only for a time. Indeed, this means that heaven is a farce – as it too must be for a limited time seeing that God’s grace is “limited” according to your view.

Paul’s teaching here is to look at that which cannot be seen for it is eternal. His inference is to look to God, his glory, his graces, his promises, etc. – who/which cannot be seen – as the author and finisher of our faith. God is eternal – not limited to a certain time(s). “For the things that are seen are for the moment (compare 1 Pet. 1:6; 5:10), but the things that are not seen are eternal.”


In relation to eternity, time is but a moment. Similarly, earthly treasures are unstable, but heavenly possessions last forever. Therefore, the inner self that is daily being renewed does not lose heart but looks at life from God’s “eternal” point of view and powers. The invisible things are those that we appropriate by faith in God (faith is the substance of things not seen … Heb. 11:1). We identify with the heroes of faith who saw these things “and welcomed them from a distance” (Heb. 11:13, i.e. they did not see them either, but had faith). And we keep our eyes fixed on Jesus the author and perfecter of our faith (Heb. 12:2).

DconNH stated, ​

Moreover, one must wonder how an “eternal sin” (Mark 3:29) against the “eternal Spirit” (Heb. 9:14) would not be punished forever and ever. If only for an age of ages, then the Holy Spirit must live only for “an age of ages,” for otherwise He would be offended in that complete justice was not carried out over the remainder of His existence – which is forever and ever – eternity – without end. Thus, the “eternal sin” must necessarily be eternally punished, unless of course one denies the doctrine of the eternal Trinity.​

Thelasttrumpe asserts,​

One need not “wonder” at this, for an “aionion sin” is simply a sin that cannot be pardoned during the ages which Christ has in view (the age in which he spoke, and “the age to come” – the Messianic age which began before that generation passed away). And an “unpardonable sin” is not a sin for which endless torment is necessary. It is simply a sin of which it is impossible to escape the consequences (in this case, the sin is ascribing to an evil spirit the power by which Christ worked his miracles). Once committed, one must experience a just punishment. Nowhere, however, is the punishment said to be endless in duration.​

Moreover, it is not at all the case that one need deny the doctrine of the Trinity in order to deny the argument above. That the Spirit is said to be aionion does not mean the Spirit is limited to the ages alone. It simply emphasizes the work of God’s Spirit throughout the ages of history, and especially his involvement during the age of the Messianic kingdom.​

If in Mark 9:43-48 Christ is describing that judgment which is elsewhere spoken of as “aionion punishment” (and I fully agree that he is) then “aionion punishment” is a temporal judgment, because it is a temporal judgment that Christ is describing in Mark 9. The word translated “hell” is “Gehenna” (the Valley of Hinnom) which, since Jeremiah’s day, had become an emblem of national judgment upon Israel.​

Once again, you twist, torture, and tickle the text with your faulty exegesis. However, Matthew 12:32 reveals that your thoughts are once again in error saying:

And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.​

If this sin [see side note below] cannot be forgiven “in this world, neither in the world to come,” then its punishment must be ongoing or justice will not be fully served. Not to punish this sin forever and ever would be to dishonor the one who was sinned against.


In addition, your view does deny the doctrine of the Trinity, as even the Holy Spirit’s works are eternal. The only works which are not eternal are those done and or maintained in sin. Moreover, the Devil, his demons, and their works shall be destroyed and the Lord will undo their damage and temporary destruction by creating a New Heavens and a New Earth (the Greek for “new” and “renewed” are the same and thus it is probably better to see them as “renewed”). What you are doing in your definition is making the eternal works of the Spirit of God temporary like Satan’s are!

Side note:​

The blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the result of gradual progress in sin. Grieving the Spirit (Eph. 4:30), if unrepented of, leads to resisting the Spirit (Acts 7:51), which, if persisted in, develops into quenching the Spirit (I Thess. 5:19). The true solution is found in Ps. 95:7b, 8a, “Today O that you would listen to his voice. Harden not your hearts!” Cf. Heb. 3:7, 8a.​

To be continued in the next post.

Sincerely,
Doc

 

[DocNH]

continued from previous post

DocNH states,​

Additionally, the continual nature of God’s just punishment is seen in Revelation 4:11, where it is said that the wicked, “will have no rest day or night.” ​

Thelasttrumpet asserts,​

This verse has absolutely nothing to do with anyone’s post-mortem existence. "Day or night" denotes temporality.​

News Cast – there will be day and night in eternity! Day and night may mean eternal! In the New Jerusalem, there will be no night (Rev. 21:23-26; cf. Isa. 60:19), however, in the New Heavens and the New Earth there will be light and darkness (Isa. 66:22).

As the creation was originally illuminated by the glory of God himself prior to the creation of the heavenly lights (Gen. 1:3 [cf. 2 Cor. 4:6], 14ff.), so the city of New Jerusalem has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it (Rev. 21: 23). It is illuminated by the One who declared himself to be the “Light of the world” (John 8:12); the Lamb is its light. The absence of natural light and having only the glory of God (the Shekinah) to provide light is another feature that links the imagery of the city with that of the Holy of Holies.

However, in Rev. 21:22-27 we see individuals coming back and forth thru the gates of the city. As Isaiah 66:22-24 states:

For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.​

According to Isaiah, there are still “new moons” – which rule by night and sabbaths – plural. Thus, we still have a progression of seven day weeks for “eternity.” Once again, we see how the temporary things upon this earth find their richer fulfillment in the eternal things of God. Once again we see the daily eternal suffering of the non-elect to the glory of God.

Thelasttrumpet asserts,​

Of all places, Doc refers to 1 Corinthians 15:35-58 as proof that “the soul is not physical but spiritual and immortal.” But 1 Cor 15 is all about the resurrection of the dead - not “life after death” as an “immortal soul.” To even reference a verse from 1 Corinthians 15 in order to support the pagan notion of the “immortality of the soul” is to mock the scriptural doctrine of the resurrection. Our being “made alive in Christ” is our only hope of immortality; it is not an inherent aspect of our nature.​

Right now, because of our fallen nature, we are in a state in which the fleshly body may die (Heb. 9:27), but after death our bodies take on a new form. In addition, what you fail to discern is that immortality is a state of the soul, which may exist in different bodies – an earthly or a heavenly (1 Cor. 15:48). You structure a false dichotomy of flesh = soul, which is not biblical (study Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy). While I would agree with you that the text speaks specifically about the resurrection of a new body, I also maintain that the new body is attached to the soul: otherwise, man could not be judged. Man will be judged in his new eternal body.

All human life will live forever – the only question is where? The soul lives forever – someplace.

In addition, the word “immortality” occurs 5 times in the AV where it is translated from two Greek words – athanasia and aphtharsia. Athanasia literally means “no death,” immunity from death: it is a never-ending existence or state of being incapable of death. The term is used in a redemptive, resurrection context in 1 Cor. 15:53 and 54. These verses tell us that when the bodies of unbelievers will be raised and changed, they will be immune from death forever. The same word is also used in relation to God in 1 Tim. 6:16, “who alone hath immortality.” In addition to its endless existence, “the concept of immortality means that God is life’s never-failing Fountain [William Hendriksen, 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus, p. 207-8]. In this double sense, only God has immortality in and of Himself.

Moreover, all men have been created in the image of God and therefore capable of unending existence – even in hell.

The second Greek word translated as immortality is aptharsia: used in Rom. 2:7; 1 Cor. 15. 42, 50, 52, 53-54 and 2 Tim. 1:10. Literally it means “no corruption” and “immunity from decay.” In the first reference, immortality has a future meaning and is associated with “glory and honor and …. eternal life." The picture of sowing and reaping is used in 1 Cor. 15:42. The bodies of believers are corruptible and subject to decay in this life. Although their bodies die and disintegrate, yet at the resurrection the bodies of Christians will be “raised in incorruption” and will never decay again. Verses 50, 52, 53-54 express the necessity and certainty of the bodies of believers being raised immortal and imperishable.

This, immortality actually means much more than just the continuity of the soul after death: it emphasizes, in particular, full participation in eternal life. Secondly, 1 Cor. 15:52-54 indicates that immortality is given to believers when the Lord raises their bodies from the graves at his parousia. Thus, immortality and resurrection are inseparably related for athanasia and aphtharsia are used in a physical, but redemptive and future context.

Thelasttrumpet asserts,​

Christ is addressing his own disciples in private, on a particular occasion. These words were never repeated to them again. Nor was this language ever used by Christ or by any of his apostles in preaching to others. If the text involves the doctrine of “endless misery,” one would think that Jesus and his disciples would have plainly stated this same threat to the multitudes, and warned them of such a fearful doom. And other than the few times it appears in the synoptic Gospels, “Gehenna” is found only one other time in the NT - and that in an obviously figurative sense (James 3:6).​

Never preached upon again! Have you read Jude or Revelation?

First, this is an eternal promise, by the eternal God.

Second, you do not have to use the exact words of scripture to preach a specific doctrine – the term Trinity is not in Scripture, etc. Moreover, some things in scripture are assumed by the original audience (OA) adressed (the name Moses or .... meant somthing to the OA). Have you studied the doctrine of election and reprobation in Ephesians 1 and Romans 9, etc.? These also speak about the doctrine of eternal punishment, etc.

Third, just because words are not repeated word-for-word elsewhere does not make them any less scripture than the rest of scripture. “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness” (2 Tim. 3:16). Your entire hermeneutic is to isolate certain texts and then twist and tickle them to your own meaning.

Something all of us need to realize is that no one can explain everything without exception in one simple phrase or another. In doing so, it would cause mass confusion and mis-understanding. A little saying I like is: One cannot say everything about something, for then he will end up saying nothing at all. Think about it – Thus, in scripture things will often go unsaid and are to be simply understood or are explained elsewhere. Thus, for there to be more complete understanding of any scripture all scripture must be examined.

Thelasttrumpet asserts,​

Christ is not talking about a post-mortem judgment. The expression, “destroy both soul and body,” was simply a common proverb of that day – a proverb with which Christ’s disciples were evidently well acquainted, and by which they understood the total destruction of any nation, or body of people, to which it was applied. There is no indication that Christ’s disciples misunderstood what he meant by the destruction "of soul and body in Gehenna." This is evident, because when they did not comprehend his meaning on other occasions, we hear them making all the necessary inquiries. But here, they made none. Thus, from this single circumstance it is evident that they did not learn the meaning of this passage from Jesus, but that it was instead a common proverb of that day. ​

Proof of this can be found in Isaiah 10:16-18, where we find God threatening a national judgment against Assyria (after having judged Israel):​

Therefore the Lord GOD of hosts will send wasting sickness among his stout warriors, and under his glory a burning will be kindled, like the burning of fire. The light of Israel will become a fire, and his Holy One a flame, and it will burn and devour his thorns and briers in one day. The glory of his forest and of his fruitful land THE LORD WILL DESTROY, BOTH SOUL AND BODY, and it will be as when a sick man wastes away. Isaiah 10:16-18 ​

Once, the body is dead the soul cannot repent (Heb. 9:27). Judgment follows immediately. Thus, here a bodily death may be seen in bring forth an eternal death – as there is no repentance after physical death. Note what the text says, “the LORD will destroy” (compare to Matt. 10:28). Far from disproving my case – you made it! God destroys not only temporarily, but continually and eternally.

This will be continued in the next post.

Sincerely,
Doc

 

[DocNH]

Continued from previous post. The last one in this series against the heresy of Universalism.

Thelasttrumpet asserts,​

Thus, we see that it was simply a proverbial expression to denote entire destruction as a nation, or body of people. In neither passage does “soul and body” refer to people on an individual basis. ​

Last, I checked nations were made up of individual people. Do you have evidence to the contrary? As matter a fact, individual people at times can even refer to whole nations. Nineveh, was the capital and greatest city of Assyria. We find it first in scripture at Genesis 10:11. It is a city from the descendents of Ham, who is representative of the reprobate seed, who shall be destroyed forever and ever from the presence of the Lord.

Thelasttrumpet asserts,​

This proverbial expression is equivalent to the one we find in Malachi 4:1, where the wicked, as a group, are spoken of as being destroyed “root and branch” (obviously, plants are not literally being referred to here). Christ merely meant to impress upon the minds of his disciples that, if they apostatized for fear of men, God was able to destroy them along with the rest of the Jewish people, as a nation (and that, in such a manner as men were not able to destroy them as a church, or body of believers, under the care of their heavenly Father). In the case of the Jewish nation, their destruction would be final and irretrievable. The Jewish people would never again be restored to national life in their own land, nor enjoy the religion of Moses in their temple worship. But though men could persecute the members of Christ’s church (vv. 16-23), and even put some to death, yet they could never completely exterminate it (for it was built upon the Rock, and “the gates of Hades” could not prevail against it). To use the common proverbs of the day, men alone could not destroy it "soul and body," or "root and branch" (which was an equivalent proverbial expression). Only God himself had the power to do that; but Christ told his disciples to “fear not” (v. 31).​

Mal. 4:1 states, “For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.” This speaks about a complete judgment (roots and branches). Complete as in every part of one’s being. This includes the soul! Matt. 10:28! Once again you have proven my case.

Thelasttrumpet asserts,​

What closes the case on this is the fact that “Gehenna” (the Valley of Hinnom) was an emblem of national judgment against the Jewish nation (see Jer 19, whole chapter). ​

Close the case. Surely, you jest. Again, nations are made up of individual people.

Thelasttrumpet asserts,​

The preaching of an “endless hell” never led anyone to saving faith, or reconciled anyone to God. The doctrine of endless, post-mortem torment is not part of the Gospel. It has no power to free anyone from sin, or lead anyone closer to God.​

Really? Be sure to tell Jonathan Edwards. Jonathan Edwards, in preaching on Revelation 6:15-16 said, “Wicked men will hereafter earnestly wish to be turned to nothing and forever cease to be that they may escape the wrath of God.” (John H. Gerstner, Jonathan Edwards on Heaven and Hell [Orlando: Ligonier Ministries], 75). Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God is a classic and we really need more sermons like this today. Great revival came about because of God’s sovereignty in the use of this sermon!


Again, you desire to isolate certain scripture away from others to make your claims. You may be able to quote John 3:16, but can you quote John 3:17-18:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. ​

Uhmm, Jesus’ gospel is a little different – complete as compared to yours. Jesus stated that he came to declare the gospel (Luke 4:16-19, et. al.). Now did Jesus ever mention Hell in his discourses? Uhmm? Matthew 5:22; Matthew 8:12; Matthew 13:42; Matthew 24:51; Matthew 25:41,46; Mark 9:43-47; Luke 12:5; Luke 16:23-24; John 5:29. (BTW, all scripture is Christ’s gospel. Thus, any verse on Hell is Christ’s teaching on Hell). As R.C. Sproul states:

The suffering of hell is beyond any experience of misery found in this world. Hell is clearly included in the teaching of Jesus. If the biblical descriptions of hell are symbols, then the reality will be worse than the symbols. Hell is the presence of God in His wrath and judgment. There is no cruelty in hell. Hell will be a place of perfect justice. Hell is eternal. There is no escape through either repentance or annihilation. ​

Thelasttrumpet asserts,​

No one was ever freed from bondage to sin or from the carnal mind by believing in endless, post-mortem torment. It is, in fact, anti-Gospel. ​

The early church, when they taught the almost-Hebrew Christians (Heb. 6:1-2), did not think the doctrine of “eternal punishment” was “anti-Gospel,” rather it was one of the elementary teachings of the church which some had difficulty with.


Some Jews had a difficult time believing that some of Israel would be lost. They misunderstood God’s purpose and plan in election (Rom. 2:28-29; 9; 11) and thus misunderstood much about “eternal judgment.” The plea of the writer of Hebrews was for them to get it – understand, but then the writer states that this was possible “only if the Lord permit” (Heb. 6:3). The situation is similar for Universlaists today.

Thus, our appeal to you, according to scripture, is repent and believe in Jesus and then the doctrine of Hell will begin to become more clear to you. Put away Fudge, stop fudging on scripture, and embrace the Father.

Sincerely,
Doc

 

[thelasttrumpet]

(My apologies for the inconsistency in the font!)

Dear thelasttrumpet,

I have given you a response below. However, please note that the majority of your comments are not evidence or even exegesis – just opinion.

If anything, my response simply reflects the nature of your original comments. I found your posts to be greatly lacking in evidence and exegesis as well. It is full of question-begging and unsupported assertions. I believe the assertions made in my response are better informed by scripture (or at least by a more reasonable interpretation of scripture), while it seems your assertions were more informed by church tradition than anything else.

Moreover, in places, you state my view as originating from pagans and yet it is your position that has been condemned by the church – not mine [Fifth General Council, "Whoever says or thinks that the torments of the demons and of impious men are temporal, so that they will, at length, come to an end, or whoever holds a restoration either of the demons, or of the impious, let him be anathemas"].

Feel free to cling to church traditions, but at no time in history has the church (especially when wedded to the state) been infallible. The decrees of the “Fifth General Council” don’t carry any weight or authority, in my view. I believe their decision to condemn universal salvation was just as influenced by uninspired, pagan beliefs as the traditions of many Jews during the time of Christ. Though you may question my assertion that neither the OT nor the NT teaches endless, post-mortem torments, it cannot be denied that this belief was cherished by the pagans before and during the time in which the OT was being written. It was only a matter of time before the Hebrew people began to borrow from the pagan religions, and incorporate uninspired beliefs (such as that of post-mortem torments) into their own belief system. It seems that Jewish belief in post-mortem torments did not began to appear until after the OT cannon was closed. This pagan belief was never sanctioned by God.

Thus, sense I am here: (1) not to argue with your misleading opinions, but to present a biblical case – which was done in my first post (see link above) and (2) my time is limited, my reply shall be limited to just a few points.

I do pray though that the Spirit of God will communicate His truth to you and that you will be given space to repent of your thoughts on these matters.

I, too, pray for you - that the Spirit of God may pull the veil of darkness from your eyes so that the truth of the Gospel may find a place in your heart.


Doc asserts:

Respectfully, this would only be so if we accept your hermeneutic for interpretation. While I would agree that the Kingdom is here and now, I would also state that there is a “now, but not yet” reality to it. In Reformed Theology, the Kingdom of God is seen in three different phases: (1) inauguration, (2) continuation, and (3) consummation of the Kingdom (ICC). In the consummation of the Kingdom we see the eternality of things we read about in the scripture.

However, Isaiah does speak of the Kingdom of God and as Dr. Pratt states, “God will judge the wicked and bring redeemed humanity into a new creation (Isa. 65; Zech. 14).”

Actually, I never denied that there was a “now, but not yet” reality to God’s kingdom. I believe the Messianic kingdom was inaugurated during Christ’s earthly ministry, and that it came “in power” before that generation passed away (in 70 AD at the overthrow of the Jewish nation). However, I believe there will be a “consummation” of God’s kingdom following the resurrection (i.e., after Christ delivers up the kingdom to the Father). This is what I understand the “not yet” stage of God’s kingdom to be – that which will follow the Messianic kingdom, and will embrace all people (for God is said to then become “all in all&#8221. It is clear from Isaiah’s description of the “new heavens and new earth” that he is not referring to the “consummated kingdom” following the immortal resurrection (the stage of the kingdom which “flesh and blood” cannot inherit), but to the temporal kingdom under Christ’s reign, which we must be “born anew” in order to “see” and “enter.”

And regarding what Dr. Richard Pratt stated, I believe Scripture teaches that Christ came to judge the wicked before that generation passed away, and has brought redeemed humanity into a new covenant-defined world. And neither Isaiah 65 nor Zech 14 teaches anything that contradicts this eschatalogical view.

Thelasttrumpet asserts,
What, then, of fire that “shall not be quenched?” Leviticus 6:12-13 speaks of the fire in the altar as being one that “shall always be burning” and “shall never go out.” Similarly, an “unquenchable fire” is not a fire that burns without end throughout “all eternity.” What we read of in Isaiah 66:24 is simply typical OT language used to describe temporal judgments:
First, Lev. 6 has nothing to do with eternal punishment, thus your comparison is fruitless.

My comparison would only be "fruitless" if the text did have something to do with “eternal punishment.” The fact that neither this text nor the others I provided refer to “eternal punishment” proves my point that such language (“continually burning,” ‘shall not go out,” etc.) refers to temporal fire, in this world. Your talk about “decrees” and “precepts” is pointless, and is only a distraction from the real issue.

Thelasttrumpet proof text,
Jeremiah 17:27
“But if you will not heed Me to hallow the Sabbath day, such as not carrying a burden when entering the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath day, then I will kindle a fire in its gates, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.”
Jeremiah says that if they did not keep the Sabbath, God promised to destroy Jerusalem (26:12–19; cf. Mic. 3:12). Judah’s political autonomy would come to an end. Jerusalem would no longer be a place to bring sacrifices and offerings because the temple would have been destroyed.

This I agree with.

Thus, without the ability for the OT atonement economy all would have been eternally lost – i.e. there would be no redemption.

If there is no redemption: what is the punishment of sin – eternal torment!

These are baseless assertions, Doc. Your opinions.

Jeremiah 17:27 is a clear reference to a temporal judgment, and has nothing to do with anyone’s post-mortem destiny. You have not and cannot prove otherwise. Nor can you prove that any punishment for sin is “eternal torment.” I deny that the word translated “eternal” in modern versions (aionios) is ever used in scripture to refer to endless duration in a post-mortem existence. You can’t prove that aionion is ever used in this way. Even if one understand aionion to mean “perpetual,” the duration need not be understood to extend beyond the confines of this temporal existence.

Physical fire represents eternal torment without Christ

Another baseless assertion from you.

(at times we see physical patterns of eternal realities in scripture – Heb. 8:5; 9:23).

Sorry, but this doesn’t support your unscriptural assertion that “physical fire represents eternal torment without Christ” in the least.

 

[thelasttrumpet]

Thelasttrumpet proof text,
Isaiah 34:9-10
“Its streams shall be turned into pitch, and its dust into brimstone; its land shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night or day; its smoke shall ascend forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; no one shall pass through it forever and ever.”
One wonders why you did not put “generation to generation it shall lie waste” in bold here. Clearly, the author gives us the meaning of verse 9 by saying, “From generation to generation it shall lie waste; no one shall pass through it forever and ever.”

One wonders why you would even bring attention to this. “Generation to generation” is a description of temporal duration, and is hardly “eternal,” Doc. It was a temporal judgment, and has nothing to do with anyone’s post-mortem destiny. And once again, you can’t prove otherwise.

Moreoever, I happen to believe that the expression “from generation to generation” (and similar expressions in the OT) is simply another way of saying “forever and ever.”

Note that the land still exists – it was not consumed or annihilated (as some maintain), but it is desolate – without God’s presence, similar to those in Hell forever and ever (not spatial separation – for God is omnipresent, but separation from all God’s glory and thus grace(s) and if separated from his graces how could they ever be annihilated?

Again, this was a temporal judgment. It’s your unscriptural opinion that it has anything to do with was an endless, post-mortem punishment. It does not.

In 2 Thess. 1:9 – the Greek word olethros (translated “destruction”) is qualified in an important way by the adjective aionios (“eternal”), which serves to stress the idea of duration rather than extinction. The severance is explained not as extinction, but “from the presence of the Lord, and from the gory of his power” (compare Matt. 7:23; 25:41, etc), definitely implying existence. Thus, to be in the presence of God without a Saviour is to be in Hell, for our God is a consuming fire (Heb. 12:29). Since God cannot change, this consuming fire of God does not either and thus Hell is forever. Your view denies the very eternal nature of God himself.

Sorry, Doc, but you can’t prove that 2 Thess 1:9 has anything to do with anyone’s post-mortem destiny.

We are told both in Acts 17:5-9 and in 1 Thess 2:14-16 that the principle persecutors of the Christians of Thessalonica were the unbelieving Jewish people. Furthermore, Christ tells us that these people (who were a part of his own generation) were to be repaid with tribulation for their works just a few years from the time of his earthly ministry (see, for example, Matt. 16:27-28; 23:36; 24:21, 34; Luke 21:20-24, etc.). Unless you wish to go beyond what the Bible says, and use your own vain imagination, no other persons than the unbelieving Jews had, or can have any part in, the punishment which Paul here describes.

What, then, is "the presence of the Lord?" In the Old Testament, “the presence of the Lord” is an expression denoting God's approbation (Gen 4:16; Ex. 33:14; Psalm 139:7-8; Jonah 1:3). The Jews considered the land of Judea especially, and particularly the temple, to be the place of God’s peculiar presence. Under the old covenant, the Shekinah that dwelt between the cherubim which overshadowed the Mercy Seat was considered the presence of the Lord, where God’s glory was especially manifest. Hence David exclaims, “Thou that dwellest between the cherubim, shine forth” (Psalm 80:1).

We are told that Jonah, after being commissioned by God to proclaim repentance to the Ninevites, “rose to flee to Tarshish from the presence of the Lord” (Jonah 1:3). In other words, he fled to where he supposed “the presence of the Lord” was not. In Jonah 2:4, we learn where he believed the presence of the Lord to be: “I am driven away from your sight; yet I shall look again upon your holy temple.” There dwelt “the presence of the Lord,” and there the glory of his power was uniquely displayed for the Jewish people.

God's presence, then, was enjoyed by the Jews in Judea, and especially in their temple service. Thus, to be “cast out of the Lord’s presence” was to be banished from Judea into captivity, and from all the covenant privileges and blessings that the Jews enjoyed in their land - especially temple worship. This “casting out” was the same as destroying them.In 2 Kings 13:23, we read: “But the LORD was gracious to them and had compassion on them, and he turned toward them, because of his covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and would not DESTROY THEM, nor has he CAST THEM FROM HIS PRESENCE until now.”

What God says he would not do to this people at this time, in the following passage we find that he does: “For because of the anger of the LORD it came to the point in Jerusalem and Judah that HE CAST THEM OUT FROM HIS PRESENCE” (2 Kings 24:20). The prophet Jeremiah had long before applied these very terms to them as a people, and to their sorrows in this world:

“Therefore, behold I, even I will utterly forget you, and I WILL FORSAKE YOU AND THE CITY THAT I GAVE YOU AND YOUR FATHERS, and CAST YOU OUT OF MY PRSENCE; and I will bring an EVERLASTING REPROACH upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten” (Jer. 23:39-40; cf. Jer. 52:3).

They were thus “cast out of the Lord's presence” for seventy years during their captivity in Babylon, in that they were banished from their land and from their holy temple, where God’s presence was especially manifest. During this time, they were said to be utterly forgotten and forsaken by God, and under an “everlasting reproach” and a “perpetual shame” which would “not be forgotten.” But after 70 years, God "remembered them," and they were brought back from this captivity to once again enjoy God's presence in their own land, and in their temple service.

At the time Paul wrote to the Thessalonian believers, the time was quickly drawing near when the Jews, as a people, were to be again cast out of the Lord’s presence, and dispersed among all nations (Luke 21:20-24, 32). Paul adopts the very language of the above passages (used in speaking of their former destruction and captivity) to describe the judgment of God that awaited them - both in their being cast out of their land, and in their city and temple being utterly destroyed – which he describes as “everlasting destruction” from the presence of the Lord. This destruction from their land and temple was to be a second "death" for the nation of Israel (the Babylonian captivity is described as being the first).

Following the Roman siege of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple, the Jews were just as certainly “destroyed from the presence of the Lord” as they were during their seventy years' captivity in Babylon. If the Scriptures are allowed to interpret themselves, Paul only describes the temporal destruction and banishment of the Jews in the very language by which the prophets before him had described their former punishments.

Thelasttrumpet proof text,
Ezekiel 20:47-48
“Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree and every dry tree in you; the blazing flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be scorched by it. All flesh shall see that I, the LORD, have kindled it; it shall not be quenched.”
First, per Ezek 20:49, this is a parable, which you conveniently left out of the context.

That’s irrelevant, Doc. It pertains to a temporal judgment, in this world. It has nothing to do with anyone’s post-mortem destiny. You’re simply distracting from the real issue.

Second, to talk of a “literal forest fire” in the Negeb is foolishness for those that study scripture know that the Negeb was a great and treeless tract of land in the south of Judah.

Did I talk of a “literal forest fire” in the Negeb, Doc? Why are you continuing to distract from the main point? Is it to continue to lead others astray?

 

[thelasttrumpet]

Jerusalem is the subject. The word Negeb simply designates the south (and the road from Babylon to Judah approached Jerusalem from the north, leading south). In addition, the forest fire is the avenging sword of the Lord, drawn in judgment against the city in the south. As in the forest fire, both green and dry trees would burn, so in the judgment of Jerusalem, both righteous and wicked would perish physically.

Once again, this verse has nothing to do with eternal punishment, but it does reveal the totality of one’s punishment.

Your observations are correct; this has absolutely nothing to do with “eternal punishment.” The “totality” of punishment described was in this world. It has nothing to do with anyone’s post-mortem destiny.

Worms eat on “decaying living flesh” before it dies. In some cases, this is how homicide detectives and forensic specialists determine how long someone has been dead. While the body may be dead, the flesh lives on for a time and worms feed upon the bodies living tissues – this is life after death. What is interesting and significant is actually, we do decompose before we die also. The thing is, we keep regenerating as long as we are alive. Skin cells, blood cells, bone cells, etc. are constantly dying and being replaced in the normal course of life. They just are not replaced any more after death.

Normally in the physical nature of things, once the flesh is dead – that is the “living” cells – the worms go away. However, the text says the worms remain (undying worms). Thus, the text teaches us that the unredeemed are stuck in-between total destruction and total renewal. They are not annihilated because the worms are seen as remaining – forever and they are not renewed because they have no Redeemer – they have not resurrection life.

Wrong. It’s a hyperbolic figure of speech, just like “fire that shall not be quenched.” All your talk about “immortal maggots” (which sounds like something straight out of Dante’s Inferno) and about the unredeemed being “stuck in-between total destruction and total renewal” is utter unsubstantiated nonsense. It’s completely your own opinion.

In addition, our God is a consuming fire ….. and those without a Redeemer are eternally consumed.

You quote scripture and then throw in an unscriptural comment. Is that to continue to lead others astray as well?

Basically, what we see here in Isaiah is the imagery of Jerusalem’s garbage dump, where unclean corpses were burned, which became symbolic of perpetual punishment and anguish:

Wrong. Gehenna (“Jerusalem’s garbage dumb&#8221 became an emblem of national punishment against Israel (see Jeremiah 19, whole chapter). You have zero scriptural evidence that Christ employs the word to refer to anything other than this.

Isa. 48:22 There is no peace, saith the LORD, unto the wicked.
Isa. 57:20 But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt.

You have zero proof that these verses pertain to any life other than this one.

Mark 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Sorry, but the expressions, “fire is not quenched” and “worm dieth not” refer to temporal judgments. And you can’t prove otherwise. Moreover, if in verse 48 you think Christ is talking about worms that will literally never die, do you think Christ was also speaking literally in verses 43-47?

In addition, your eschatology is way off balance concerning Dan. 2. You need to do some reading in the area of Amil.

Having held to that eschatological view for a few years, I’ve done a lot of reading in “the area of Amil.” Any further reading would be a waste of my time. I see nothing in this view that would persuade me to understand Daniel 12 any differently than I do now. Perhaps instead of reading books about Amillennialism, you should simply read the Bible a little more carefully (and without taking so many unscriptural beliefs for granted while doing so).

Simply Daniel 12:2 is a prediction of the bodily resurrection of the godly and ungodly prior to the final judgment (Matt. 25:46; John 5:28).

Once again, this is your own opinion. And simply referencing Matt 25:46 and John 5:29 isn’t going to change that. I agree that all three passages refer to the same event, but I deny that they speak of a judgment that is still future. All of the scriptural evidence points to a past fulfillment.

Assertion, but where’s the beef? Where is your evidence? Your one-sided definition of olam is once again incorrect.

Apparently you’ve jumped into this debate without reading any of my other posts, because I’ve provided ample evidence that olam is not used to mean “endless duration” in an absolute sense.

In Eccl. 3:1-15 we read of God’s sovereign rule over people. Verse 11 records that God ‘hath made everything beautiful in its time’ and it is a reference to the divine purpose and harmony, which covers all areas of life. People are able to appreciate this providence only because God ‘set the world (olam) in their hearts.’ This implies a desire for “eternal” things which in turn implies a spiritual dimension and nature in man.

Your assertion that “this implies a desire for “eternal” things which in turn implies a spiritual dimension and nature in man” is unsubstantiated. I see no evidence for this.

It reveals the importance of the faculty of appreciating lasting things (H. C. Leupold, Exposition of Ecclesiastes, p. 90). Since this world is only a momentary image of eternal realties (i.e. there will be a New Heaven and a New Earth, et. al.) olam here infers to “eternity.” God hath set eternity (olam) in our hearts.

I believe both you and H.C. Leupold are mistaken about this verse. Everything Solomon is talking about is that which takes place “under heaven.” He’s talking about life in this temporal realm – that which is done “under the sun.” “What God has done” refers to that which God has done in the ages of this temporal world (which has a “beginning” and an “end&#8221. The fact that God has “set olam in our hearts” means nothing more than the fact that, in spite of our inability to discern “what God has done from the beginning to the end” (which again refers to God’s involvement in this temporal creation) we are still able to appreciate things “under heaven” that last longer than our own short lifespans. Your assertion that “this world is only a momentary image of eternal realties” sounds more Platonic than anything else (which doesn’t surprise me, since this seems to be where you’ve derived your understanding of aionion).

 

[thelasttrumpet]

Matthew 25:46 needs to be rightfully understood. The term used here means “everlasting.” For example, both in Romans 16:26 and in 1 Timothy 1:17 the word expresses the eternity of God; in Hebrews 9:14 it describes the eternal Spirit, and in Revelation 1:18 the endless reign of Christ.

It does need to be rightfully understood; however, I deny that you’ve rightfully understood it.

The “aionion punishment” is the punishment God brought upon the Jewish nation for their iniquity. It is not unlike the punishment God brought upon the nation of Israel years before, when Jerusalem was overthrown by the Babylonians (see, for example, the book of Lamentations, especially chapter 4, v. 6 and v. 22). The biggest difference is that Israel’s punishment at the hands of the Romans has lasted much longer than 70 years (nearly 2,000 years, in fact). It is thus said to be aionion.

And the life aionion (the “life of the age&#8221 that believers entered into is the life of the Messianic kingdom. Christ himself defines life aionion as knowing “the only true God, and Jesus Christ” whom God sent (John 17:3).

Though I agree with you that God is self-existent and is “without beginning or end,” I deny that Rom 16:26 and 1 Tim 1:17 express the “eternity of God.” This is an unsubstantiated assertion. Paul uses the word aionion twice in Romans 16:26, and I see on reason to think that he’s using it in two different ways. I submit that in both cases he’s using it to mean “aion-pertaining” (belonging to an age or ages).

And I disagree with your unsubstantiated assertion that Revelation 1:18 is describing the “endless reign of Christ” (which would contradict Paul in 1 Cor 15:23-28).

The fact that this same word is used twice in Matthew 25:46, both to describe the duration of “everlasting life” and to describe the duration of Hell, means that one cannot escape the conclusion that when descriptive of hell it has the same meaning.

If you read all of my response to you, you’d know that I agree that aionion has the same meaning in both cases. However, what I see no evidence for is your belief that Christ is referring to something post-mortem and endless in both cases. This, I believe to be completely unsubstantiated. There is no scriptural reason to understand either the life or the punishment as pertaining to anyone’s post-mortem experience. All you’re doing is begging the question.

And you keep referring to “Hell” as if this is even a legitimate translation of any word in Scripture. If by “Hell” you mean “Gehenna,” then I’m afraid you’re mistaken that this has anything to do with a place of endless, post-mortem torment. Gehenna is an emblem of national punishment against Israel.

As I brought up in my first post, the Bible consistently speaks of suffering and loss rather than annihilation after death for unbelievers.

Your assertion that the Bible speaks of any such thing is unsupported. The Bible speaks of no suffering for anyone following physical death. You can’t prove otherwise.

Furthermore, the fact that there are degrees of punishment in Hell is incompatible with annihilation.

If by “Hell” you mean a place of endless, post-mortem punishment, then the Bible teaches of no such place. Any “degrees of punishment” anyone experiences for their sins is in this world.

Coupled with the force and use of the adjective aionios…

Aionios pertains to an age or ages. The only duration inherent in this adjective is that which is uninterrupted and indefinite (IOW, the meaning of an “age&#8221. As it is used in Scripture, you have no proof that it has anything to do with absolute endlessness.

…and the fact that the character of sinners in Hell does not change, thereby incurring God’s wrath eternally…

You have not yet proven that there even is a place of punishment after death in which sinners will exist. I deny that Scripture teaches any such thing. You’re begging the question by even referring to “Hell” as such.

we must conclude that annihilation has no biblical warrant whatsoever.

I don’t even believe in “annihilation,” Doc. While I don’t believe that Scripture teaches that no one is still alive after they die, I believe all who die are to be raised immortal – not annihilated.

Incorrect, eternal life (soul) begins when one is born into this world. For the elect (who were foreordained before the foundation of the word – Eph. 1) (1) they shall be regenerated and (2) they will be eternally in Heaven with Christ (Rom. 8:30), for the non-elect they will be forever in Hell (Matt. 25:41). The elect have eternal life in the present (I John 5:11-12).

What do you mean by “eternal life (soul)?” And what do you mean when you say it “begins when one is born into the world?” Do you have Scripture to substantiate this assertion?

Moreover, you fail to understand the nature of the soul.

I think it’s you who misunderstands “the nature of the soul.” The nature of the soul is the nature of any living, breathing creature. The 'soul' simply refers to the person, body or self, or to a person’s natural life. Adam became a “living soul” when God breathed into him the breath of life (animals are referred to as “souls” as well – see Gen 1:20-21; cf. Rev 16:3). Because “soul” doesn’t refer to any immaterial, immortal aspect of a creature, souls are said to “die,” be “destroyed,” or “strangled” (Eze. 18:4, 22:27; Prov. 6:32, 18:7, 22:25; Job 7:15 Num. 15:27-31; Lev. 23:30; Josh. 11:11; cf. Josh. 10:30-39). Souls are even said to have blood (Jer. 2:34). Adam continued as a “living soul” until he died, and his spirit returned to God who gave it.

So how does your understanding of “the nature of the soul” differ from what Scripture tells us?

(To be continued, when I have more time)

 

[thelasttrumpet]

Thelasttrumpe asserts,
That anyone will go on sinning for “all eternity” is an unscriptural assertion.
Another mere assertion, but where’s your evidence? Who is the non-elect’s Redeemer? They have none. How do these beasts and brutes stop sinning? They cannot because it is their very nature to sin. They do not seek after God – nor can they. God’s justice is eternal and thus his judgment eternal.

It’s no more a “mere assertion” than your own, Doc. You’re the one making the unsubstantiated, unscriptural claim that anyone will still be sinning after they die, even though Scripture says no such thing. You also claim that they have no redeemer, when this is also an unsupported assertion. The fact that Christ is the redeemer of believers doesn’t mean he’s not the redeemer of unbelievers. Paul specifically tells Timothy that God is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

Thelasttrumpe asserts,
Nowhere are we taught that some people will be raised immortal in an imperfect, sinful condition. Paul tells us that those who have died have been set free (“justified”) from sin (Rom 6:7), and we have good reason to think that all who are “made alive in Christ” (i.e., all who die in Adam) will be raised free from sin as well. We are explicitly told that all sinners will be made righteous (Rom 5:18-19), all will be reconciled to God (Col1:15-20) all will be “summed up together” in Christ (Eph 1:10), all will be subjected to Christ (1 Cor 15:28; Phil 3:20-21), and all will worship him as Lord (Phil. 2:10-11).
Once again you do injustice to the scripture removing it from its full context.

I have done no such thing; this is your own opinion.

Only those united to Christ (Rom 6:5) are justified.

The justification of which Paul is speaking here is simply that of a dead person’s being set free from sin (i.e., being dead, he is no longer able to sin). This isn’t the justification that is in Christ, and enjoyed in this life by faith.

In addition, this is not speaking of a physical death, but a spiritual death.

There is a figurative death in view in this chapter, but that’s not what Paul’s saying in this verse. Paul is building off of the actual, literal fact that those who have physically expired have been justified from sin (since a dead person is no longer sinning – sin no longer has any power over them, since they’re dead). In light of this fact, he exhorts believers to reckon themselves as having died with Christ, as if they had died and been buried in the grave - completely unresponsive to temptation and sin – and then raised to new life with Christ.

Rom. 5:18-19 speaks of MANY, not ALL.

Certainly. But you need to read the text a little more carefully. Paul speaks of “many” being “made sinners” only in contrast with the “one” (Adam) whose disobedience resulted in this. And he speaks of “many” being “made righteous” in contrast with the “one” (Christ) whose obedience will result in this. In both cases, Paul has all mankind in view (see v. 12, cf. v. 18) – not just the elect. Paul shifts from talking about the elect in Rom 5:1-11 to speaking of all mankind in vv. 12-19. The “justification of life” and “righteousness” that is for “all men” is still in the future, and is the basis for the believer’s present enjoyment of justification by faith. In verse 20, Paul returns to the present to speak of the believer’s experience under this grace, in contrast with his former experience under the law. Paul goes into greater detail of the believer’s experience under grace in chapter 6.

The ALL speaks of ALL the elect.

This is a completely unsubstantiated assertion. Your opinion. I assert that the ALL speaks of ALL men, because Paul begins by speaking of all men in v. 12. Adam’s disobedience resulted in all of his posterity being made sinners, and placed all men under the condemnation of death. Paul’s point is that Christ’s obedience completely reverses what Adam’s transgression caused.

In Col. “all things” will be reconciled to Christ, however reconciliation here includes God’s sovereign justice as well.

This too is a completely unsubstantiated assertion. If by “sovereign justice” you mean that many (most?) of the “all” which are said to be reconciled to God as a result of the peace Christ made through his death on the cross, will actually remain un-reconciled to God for “all eternity,” then I have to reject such an absurd and unscriptural idea. I’m afraid you’re really grasping at straws here, Doc.

The word Paul uses for “reconciliation” (apokatallasso) is used only three times by Paul (twice in Colossians, and once in Ephesians 2:16). Both in Col1:22 and in Eph 2:16 it means the restoration of a harmonious relationship, following a state of alienation. You have no evidence that it means anything different in Col 1:20.

Paul wrote this to Colosee because they had an inadequate view of Christ and it appears Universalists have that same problem not realizing that God is not only a God of 100% love, but also 100% justice.

“God is love,” not “justice.” Though God is certainly just in all that he does (not in some things that he does, as you apparently believe – but in ALL things that he does), it is LOVE that unequivocally defines who God is. I submit that God’s justice is but an attribute of his love – his justice is the servant of his love. God is just in everything that he does BECAUSE he is love (not vice-versa), and I demand proof to the contrary.

All will bend their knee (Phil. 2:10-11) in the final consummation of things. Bending the knee - a work – does not mean one is necessarily saved, but conquered. Some have been conquered unto eternal life and others unto eternal death (Amos 9:1-4, etc.).

All will indeed be conquered by Christ (or, to be more scriptural, all will be “subjected” to him). This fact does not at all imply that any will be “conquered unto eternal life and others unto eternal death” (what’s with the unscriptural language, anyway, Doc? Where does Scripture even speak of “eternal death?” Is this to continue to lead others astray?). But to be subjected to Christ is to submit one’s will to him. And bowing the knee to Christ and confessing him as Lord is clearly an act of worship (and I demand evidence to the contrary). Paul tells us that it is only by the Holy Spirit that anyone can confess Jesus as Lord (1 Cor 12:3), and that those who confess that Jesus is Lord will be saved (Rom 10:9). Such confession is always spoken of as being salvific in nature – it is never said to be forced. God is glorified in our worship of him, not in our rebellion against him in our hearts (even if we’re “going through the motions,” as you believe God will force some people to do). I am unable to believe that Paul is “really” saying that God will be glorified by forcing people to confess Jesus with their lips, and to bow to him, while their hearts are far from him.

 

[thelasttrumpet]

Thelasttrumpet asserts,
(and yes, all people do have a Savior to empower them to stop sinning - 1 Tim 4:10).



If God desired all men to be saved - who could stop him? None can stay his hand (Dan. 4:35).

Well Scripture tells us that God does desire all men to be saved. And since “none can stay his hand,” it necessarily follows that all men will be saved. But let’s see how you try to contradict this truth.

Many are not chosen (Matt. 22:14).

Chosen for what, Doc? If it’s for the salvation that God desires all men to experience, then Scripture would contradict itself. But it doesn’t; thus, that for which only some are “chosen” is not the ultimate salvation that God wills that all men will experience. Christ has a temporal blessing in view in Matt 22:14 - entrance into the kingdom over which he now reigns as King. But Christ’s reign will one day end, and this kingdom will be delivered up to God (1 Cor 15:24-28).

Either God is not sovereign or the text is being improperly understood out of its context.

I submit that it’s both 1 Tim 4:10 and Matt 22:14 that are not being properly understood by you.

If God is not sovereign – then none could be saved – for he would not have all power to save them.

I fully agree with this, Doc!

In context:
1 Tim 2:1-4 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
The text is rather clear if it remains within its context. The term “all” in this context means “all kinds of men” even “kings” and those “in authority” (who were persecuting the church at this time). Unlike Christ, who prayed for the elect – since he knew whom they were (John 17:9, 19, et. al.), we pray for “all” without exception understanding that only those who God predestined, will be called, justified, glorified, (Rom. 8:30) etc. Thus, God desires, in harmony with His eternal decree, to save all men without distinction (i.e., without respect to rank, station, race, or nationality) and bring them to the knowledge of the truth.

I reject your interpretation of this text. "All" does not mean “all kinds of men” (or "all without distinction") in either verse. “Kings and all that are in authority” means kings and all in authority without exception (not all in authority without distinction). This group of people is but a subcategory of the “all men” of verse 4, which, as in verse 2, means “all without exception.” We are to pray for “all without exception” because God has willed that “all without exception” shall be saved.

There are elect angels (1 Tim. 5:21) and non-elect angels (Jude 6). God has reserved final judgment for these non-elect angels. All unrepentant sinners will suffer with their master in Hell for eternity (Rev. 19:19-21; 20:10-15).

I deny that the angels (“messengers”) of which Jude speaks are immortal, super-human beings. There is nothing that Jude says which suggests this. And neither Revelation 19:19-21 nor 20:10-1 has anything to do with a post-mortem judgment for anyone. I demand proof of this. What proof do you have?

Thelasttrumpet asserts, concerning 2 Cor. 4:18,
The word translated “temporal” (proskairos) is not used by Paul to contrast limited time with unlimited time. It is simply used to contrast a shorter measure of time (the passing of which is observable) with a longer measure of time (the passing of which is not observable). Christ employs this same word in Matthew 13:21, where it is used in reference to those who hear the Gospel and endure in their faith for only “a short while” (proskairos) in contrast to those who, after hearing the word, keep it and go on to produce fruit.
Paul is contrasting the present period of hardship and suffering he and other believers were experiencing, with the future blessing in store for them that pertains to the Messianic age. He represents their resurrection bodies as being kept for them “in the heavens” (5:1) for an aionion duration of time (Paul speaks of our new bodies as already being in existence because it is so certain that we are to be clothed with them). Because these bodies are incorruptible, Paul pictures them as enduring throughout the coming age until the time comes for mortals to finally acquire possession of them.
Once again, let us look at the context of the Scripture:
1 Cor. 4:15-18 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God. For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Now according to your view “eternal” only means a longer period of time. Thus, you are asserting that eternal is but for a “limited time.” – it may be longer, but it is still limited. So, once again your view limits the “grace of God” and “glory of God” (vs. 15) to limited periods of time.

Sorry Doc, but it doesn’t at all follow that, if aionion refers to a limited time, then the grace and glory of God referred to in v. 15 must be limited as well. This is an invalid argument.

This means [by your definition] that God is not really God because He has limited glory – only for a time. Indeed, this means that heaven is a farce – as it too must be for a limited time seeing that God’s grace is “limited” according to your view.

Nope, doesn’t follow. Try again.

Paul’s teaching here is to look at that which cannot be seen for it is eternal. His inference is to look to God, his glory, his graces, his promises, etc. – who/which cannot be seen – as the author and finisher of our faith. God is eternal – not limited to a certain time(s). “For the things that are seen are for the moment (compare 1 Pet. 1:6; 5:10), but the things that are not seen are eternal.”

Sorry, nothing you’ve said overturns my argument at all. All you’ve done is given assertions. And 1 Pet 1:6 and 5:10 don’t support your assertions in the least.

 

[thelasttrumpet]

Thelasttrumpe asserts,
One need not “wonder” at this, for an “aionion sin” is simply a sin that cannot be pardoned during the ages which Christ has in view (the age in which he spoke, and “the age to come” – the Messianic age which began before that generation passed away). And an “unpardonable sin” is not a sin for which endless torment is necessary. It is simply a sin of which it is impossible to escape the consequences (in this case, the sin is ascribing to an evil spirit the power by which Christ worked his miracles). Once committed, one must experience a just punishment. Nowhere, however, is the punishment said to be endless in duration.
Moreover, it is not at all the case that one need deny the doctrine of the Trinity in order to deny the argument above. That the Spirit is said to be aionion does not mean the Spirit is limited to the ages alone. It simply emphasizes the work of God’s Spirit throughout the ages of history, and especially his involvement during the age of the Messianic kingdom.
If in Mark 9:43-48 Christ is describing that judgment which is elsewhere spoken of as “aionion punishment” (and I fully agree that he is) then “aionion punishment” is a temporal judgment, because it is a temporal judgment that Christ is describing in Mark 9. The word translated “hell” is “Gehenna” (the Valley of Hinnom) which, since Jeremiah’s day, had become an emblem of national judgment upon Israel.


Once again, you twist, torture, and tickle the text with your faulty exegesis.

This is your opinion; you cannot substantiate your claim that I have done any such thing.

However, Matthew 12:32 reveals that your thoughts are once again in error saying:
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
If this sin [see side note below] cannot be forgiven “in this world, neither in the world to come,” then its punishment must be ongoing or justice will not be fully served. Not to punish this sin forever and ever would be to dishonor the one who was sinned against.

1) “World” should be translated “age.”
2) Once again, your argument does not follow. That a sin cannot be forgiven in the age in which Christ spoke, or the age that was then to come, does not in any way mean that a person must be punished endlessly for it. This is your own unscriptural opinion. You have no proof of this.

Moreover, the Devil, his demons, and their works shall be destroyed and the Lord will undo their damage and temporary destruction by creating a New Heavens and a New Earth (the Greek for “new” and “renewed” are the same and thus it is probably better to see them as “renewed”).

Where is your scriptural evidence that the devil’s works shall be destroyed by God creating the New Heavens and New Earth? I don’t think you have any. Another unsupported assertion.

What you are doing in your definition is making the eternal works of the Spirit of God temporary like Satan’s are!

Once again, your argument does not follow.

Thelasttrumpet asserts,
This verse has absolutely nothing to do with anyone’s post-mortem existence. "Day or night" denotes temporality.
News Cast – there will be day and night in eternity! Day and night may mean eternal! In the New Jerusalem, there will be no night (Rev. 21:23-26; cf. Isa. 60:19), however, in the New Heavens and the New Earth there will be light and darkness (Isa. 66:22).

News Flash – you’re begging the question by arguing that there will be night and day in “eternity” by demonstrating there is night and day in the new heavens and new earth. I deny that the new heavens and new earth has anything to do with “eternity.” You have not proven otherwise.

As the creation was originally illuminated by the glory of God himself prior to the creation of the heavenly lights (Gen. 1:3 [cf. 2 Cor. 4:6], 14ff.), so the city of New Jerusalem has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it (Rev. 21: 23). It is illuminated by the One who declared himself to be the “Light of the world” (John 8:12); the Lamb is its light. The absence of natural light and having only the glory of God (the Shekinah) to provide light is another feature that links the imagery of the city with that of the Holy of Holies.

However, in Rev. 21:22-27 we see individuals coming back and forth thru the gates of the city. As Isaiah 66:22-24 states:
For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
According to Isaiah, there are still “new moons” – which rule by night and sabbaths – plural. Thus, we still have a progression of seven day weeks for “eternity.” Once again, we see how the temporary things upon this earth find their richer fulfillment in the eternal things of God. Once again we see the daily eternal suffering of the non-elect to the glory of God.

And once again, you’re begging the question.

(To be continued when I have more time)

 

[bradfordl]

trumpet's debate strategy: If you can't blind 'em with brilliance, bury 'em in verbiage. And more verbiage. And more.... ad infinitum, ad nauseum. Same defeated arguments reworded for rumination.

 

[DocNH]

Lastrumpet,

While I am sure “you will continue,” (2 Tim. 4:3-4) you are presently wrestling with God’s word to your own destruction (2 Pet. 3:16). As already has been shown, your misunderstanding is more than just the area of eternal judgment: i.e. election, God’s nature and justice, regeneration, justification, glorification, etc. Lastrumpet, I hope you will listen to those (Bradford and others) who have very patiently endured both your heresies and “other remarks.”

We will continue to pray for your repentance so we can progress to yet weightier issues (Heb. 6:1-3; 2 Tim. 2:24-26). For now back to work.

In His Grace,
Doc

 

[thelasttrumpet]

Thelasttrumpet asserts,
Of all places, Doc refers to 1 Corinthians 15:35-58 as proof that “the soul is not physical but spiritual and immortal.” But 1 Cor 15 is all about the resurrection of the dead - not “life after death” as an “immortal soul.” To even reference a verse from 1 Corinthians 15 in order to support the pagan notion of the “immortality of the soul” is to mock the scriptural doctrine of the resurrection. Our being “made alive in Christ” is our only hope of immortality; it is not an inherent aspect of our nature.
Right now, because of our fallen nature, we are in a state in which the fleshly body may die (Heb. 9:27), but after death our bodies take on a new form.

If by this you mean that our bodies do not “take on a new form” until the resurrection (which is yet future), then I agree. The resurrection body is said to be incorruptible and glorious – in the very image of the “man of heaven.”

In addition, what you fail to discern is that immortality is a state of the soul, which may exist in different bodies – an earthly or a heavenly (1 Cor. 15:48).

I fail to discern this because it’s an unscriptural belief. You have no scriptural evidence that man possesses an “immortal soul” that “may exist in different bodies.” This is your unsubstantiated opinion.

You structure a false dichotomy of flesh = soul, which is not biblical (study Dichotomy vs. Trichotomy).

I think you need to do the studying, my friend. What proof do you have that the soul is an immortal part of man that continues to live after he dies? None at all. It’s your opinion, informed not by scripture, but by tradition.

While I would agree with you that the text speaks specifically about the resurrection of a new body, I also maintain that the new body is attached to the soul: otherwise, man could not be judged. Man will be judged in his new eternal body.

Adam “became a living soul.” He didn’t receive a living soul. “Soul” refers to a breathing being or person, not an immortal aspect of our nature. There is no part of us that continues to live after death. The very idea is unscriptural.

And nowhere are we told that “man will be judged in his new eternal body.” There is no judgment said to follow the immortal resurrection of all who die in Adam.

All human life will live forever – the only question is where? The soul lives forever – someplace.

Sorry Plato, but there is no such thing as an immortal soul that lives “someplace” after one dies. The idea is unscriptural. After man breathes his last, he does not live again until he is resurrected.

In addition, the word “immortality” occurs 5 times in the AV where it is translated from two Greek words – athanasia and aphtharsia. Athanasia literally means “no death,” immunity from death: it is a never-ending existence or state of being incapable of death. The term is used in a redemptive, resurrection context in 1 Cor. 15:53 and 54. These verses tell us that when the bodies of unbelievers will be raised and changed, they will be immune from death forever. The same word is also used in relation to God in 1 Tim. 6:16, “who alone hath immortality.” In addition to its endless existence, “the concept of immortality means that God is life’s never-failing Fountain [William Hendriksen, 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus, p. 207-8]. In this double sense, only God has immortality in and of Himself.

There is nothing in the above paragraph with which I disagree.

Moreover, all men have been created in the image of God and therefore capable of unending existence – even in hell.

It doesn’t at all follow from the fact that man has been created in the image of God that man was created with an “immortal soul” that will continue living after a person dies. And it certainly doesn’t prove that there is a post-mortem place called “hell” to which anyone will go. This is your own unsubstantiated opinion.

The second Greek word translated as immortality is aptharsia: used in Rom. 2:7; 1 Cor. 15. 42, 50, 52, 53-54 and 2 Tim. 1:10. Literally it means “no corruption” and “immunity from decay.” In the first reference, immortality has a future meaning and is associated with “glory and honor and …. eternal life. The picture of sowing and reaping is used in 1 Cor. 15:42. The bodies of believers are corruptible and subject to decay in this life. Although their bodies die and disintegrate, yet at the resurrection the bodies of Christians will be “raised in incorruption” and will never decay again. Verses 50, 52, 53-54 express the necessity and certainty of the bodies of believers being raised immortal and imperishable.

Again, I find nothing in the above paragraph that I disagree with.

This, immortality actually means much more than just the continuity of the soul after death:

You have not even proven that there is any “continuity of the soul after death.” You’re simply taking it for granted.

it emphasizes, in particular, full participation in eternal life.

An unsubstantiated assertion. Jesus defines aionion life for us in John 17, and says nothing about it having anything to do with endless duration of existence after we die.

Secondly, 1 Cor. 15:52-54 indicates that immortality is given to believers when the Lord raises their bodies from the graves at his parousia. Thus, immortality and resurrection are inseparably related for athanasia and aphtharsia are used in a physical, but redemptive and future context.

I’m not sure why you spent so much time on this subject, when I said nothing that indicates I believe otherwise.

Thelasttrumpet asserts,
Christ is addressing his own disciples in private, on a particular occasion. These words were never repeated to them again. Nor was this language ever used by Christ or by any of his apostles in preaching to others. If the text involves the doctrine of “endless misery,” one would think that Jesus and his disciples would have plainly stated this same threat to the multitudes, and warned them of such a fearful doom. And other than the few times it appears in the synoptic Gospels, “Gehenna” is found only one other time in the NT - and that in an obviously figurative sense (James 3:6).
Never preached upon again! Have you read Jude or Revelation?

Have you? If you have, then you should know that “Gehenna” is not used in either book. And there is nothing said about “destroying soul and body” in either of these books, either (though I believe the national judgment upon Israel of which Christ is speaking is spoken of by John in Revelation).

First, this is an eternal promise, by the eternal God.

Why do you keep using the word “eternal” when there is not a word in Scripture that means this?

Have you studied the doctrine of election and reprobation in Ephesians 1 and Romans 9, etc.? These also speak about the doctrine of eternal punishment, etc.

I studied this doctrine when I was a Calvinist. However, neither Romans 9 nor Ephesians 1 says anything about “eternal punishment.” Nor is human election said to pertain to any life other than this one.