Response to Confused about Hell

[Basil the Great]

A new member posted a question in For New Christians that can't be answered there.

He noted that people make very convincing cases for annihilation, eternal torment, and universalism.

I share the concern, but I think there's a reason: The New Testament gives multiple views on judgement, and many of them aren't literal. This should be a clue that perhaps what is actually going to happen is something we wouldn't understand.

My summary

• Paul in 1 Cor 15 and elsewhere seems to advocate universalism.
• John 12:31 ff suggests something like 1 Cor 15. God overthrows the powers that oppressed humans. Once he does that, all are drawn to Christ.
• The Revelation advocates either annihilation or torment, depending upon how you understand the second death
• Jesus certainly describes judgement, but it's not clear whether it continues forever, and a number of his statements are obviously non-literal.

Complicating the problem is that fact that "eternal" is used in the OT for things that aren't literally eternal. Fires that no longer burn, everlasting doors that aren't (ps 24).

My reading of the second death (based on Jewish usage and the obvious meaning) is that it is probably destruction, though I don't think that's certain. I think you can unify Paul's views with the end of the Revelation if you assume that not many normal humans end up in the lake of fire, but only those who are so inalterably opposed to God that they're effectively part of the "powers" that Paul's picture shows as being destroyed. Paul's picture seems universalist. Once the powers that oppressed humans are destroyed, everything else is "in Christ." The powers in his view are primarily supernatural, but it's not impossible that they include some humans.

Jesus uses such a variety of images that it's hard to pin down just what the literal meaning is. He certainly speaks of varying rewards and punishments. But I don't think there's anything that is unambiguously eternal punishment. (Mat 25 depends upon what "eternal" means. I think it's often not literal.) It may be that the Synoptic Gospels, Paul, and John simply don't agree. But I think it's barely possible that the punishments in the Gospels aren't eternal torment, in which case the Gospels could be consistent with Paul interpreted as I've interpreted him.

This is equivalent to N T Wright's view in Rethinking the Tradition, in which most people end up with Christ, but some are effectively destroyed.

I have to say though that I'm not entirely sure that Jesus' teachings in the Synoptic Gospels can actually be understood as consistent with Paul's. Reading Jesus' stories of judgement as not indicating eternal punishment seems like the most hopeful way of understanding them as consistent.

A new member posted a question in For New Christians that can't be answered there.

He noted that people make very convincing cases for annihilation, eternal torment, and universalism.

I share the concern, but I think there's a reason: The New Testament gives multiple views on judgement, and many of them aren't literal. This should be a clue that perhaps what is actually going to happen is something we wouldn't understand.

My summary

• Paul in 1 Cor 15 and elsewhere seems to advocate universalism.
• John 12:31 ff suggests something like 1 Cor 15. God overthrows the powers that oppressed humans. Once he does that, all are drawn to Christ.
• The Revelation advocates either annihilation or torment, depending upon how you understand the second death
• Jesus certainly describes judgement, but it's not clear whether it continues forever, and a number of his statements are obviously non-literal.

Complicating the problem is that fact that "eternal" is used in the OT for things that aren't literally eternal. Fires that no longer burn, everlasting doors that aren't (ps 24).

My reading of the second death (based on Jewish usage and the obvious meaning) is that it is probably destruction, though I don't think that's certain. I think you can unify Paul's views with the end of the Revelation if you assume that not many normal humans end up in the lake of fire, but only those who are so inalterably opposed to God that they're effectively part of the "powers" that Paul's picture shows as being destroyed. Paul's picture seems universalist. Once the powers that oppressed humans are destroyed, everything else is "in Christ." The powers in his view are primarily supernatural, but it's not impossible that they include some humans.

Jesus uses such a variety of images that it's hard to pin down just what the literal meaning is. He certainly speaks of varying rewards and punishments. But I don't think there's anything that is unambiguously eternal punishment. (Mat 25 depends upon what "eternal" means. I think it's often not literal.) It may be that the Synoptic Gospels, Paul, and John simply don't agree. But I think it's barely possible that the punishments in the Gospels aren't eternal torment, in which case the Gospels could be consistent with Paul interpreted as I've interpreted him.

This is equivalent to N T Wright's view in Rethinking the Tradition, in which most people end up with Christ, but some are effectively destroyed.

I have to say though that I'm not entirely sure that Jesus' teachings in the Synoptic Gospels can actually be understood as consistent with Paul's. Reading Jesus' stories of judgement as not indicating eternal punishment seems like the most hopeful way of understanding them as consistent.

Likewise, I am not entirely sure that Jesus' emphasis upon salvation being achieved by our deeds (ex: Matthew 25: 31-46) can be be understood as consistent with Paul's emphasis upon salvation being dependent upon one's faith.

 

[hedrick]

Likewise, I am not entirely sure that Jesus' emphasis upon salvation being achieved by our deeds (ex: Matthew 25: 31-46) can be be understood as consistent with Paul's emphasis upon salvation being dependent upon one's faith.

To complicate things, Paul seems to teach justification by faith but judgement by works. That summary is agreed to be people from quite a wide range of theological perspectives, although they don't agree on exactly what it means.

 

[Oldmantook]

To complicate things, Paul seems to teach justification by faith but judgement by works. That summary is agreed to be people from quite a wide range of theological perspectives, although they don't agree on exactly what it means.

Paul taught justification by faith and not by works [of the law]. James taught justification by works and not by faith alone. Do they contradict each other? No, as Scripture does not contradict itself. Works of the law do not save any more than good works done in our flesh cause our salvation. However once we are saved, we are created to do good works (Eph 2:10) which are the outward evidence of genuine inward faith. That is why James wrote that faith without works is dead. That is why Jesus judges the genuineness of the faith of the 7 Churches in Revelation based upon their outward works, or lack thereof.

 

[section9+1]

So you really think Jesus expects his disciples to rip out their eyes or cut off their arms?

In a way, yes. He was illustrating how the Pharisees achieved their righteousness. Just before that he said righteousness needed to exceed that of the Pharisees. They weren't going far enough and it needed to be exceeded even to the point of self mutilation. That was the path they were on. It was of course the wrong path. There is another path that requires none of the Pharisaical excesses. In Christ the righteousness is a gift. In law the righteousness must be pursued to ridiculous extremes without ever having done enough.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Paul taught justification by faith and not by works [of the law]. James taught justification by works and not by faith alone. Do they contradict each other? No, as Scripture does not contradict itself. Works of the law do not save any more than good works done in our flesh cause our salvation. However once we are saved, we are created to do good works (Eph 2:10) which are the outward evidence of genuine inward faith. That is why James wrote that faith without works is dead. That is why Jesus judges the genuineness of the faith of the 7 Churches in Revelation based upon their outward works, or lack thereof.

My wife loves gardening. She looks at seeds, carefully plants them and sees if with the right environment they will sprout and start to grow leaves and develop. To her to say a seed is alive that does not sprout and produce leaves after a specific time, 4 weeks, normally means the seed is dead.

It is strange to me that someone believes a sinner can be filled with the Holy Spirit, God living in a person while showing no reality on the outside or change. This is impossible, and over a period of time just declares no encounter has taken place.

Good works are the sign of a loving spirit at work, of resolution to deep needs and a desire to overflow love to others, because dominance and putting others down is not their specific approach. You cannot fake these effects, because it is fruit of a work in ones heart, and unless it was there there is no point to show such things. God bless you

 

[Oldmantook]

My wife loves gardening. She looks at seeds, carefully plants them and sees if with the right environment they will sprout and start to grow leaves and develop. To her to say a seed is alive that does not sprout and produce leaves after a specific time, 4 weeks, normally means the seed is dead.

It is strange to me that someone believes a sinner can be filled with the Holy Spirit, God living in a person while showing no reality on the outside or change. This is impossible, and over a period of time just declares no encounter has taken place.

Good works are the sign of a loving spirit at work, of resolution to deep needs and a desire to overflow love to others, because dominance and putting others down is not their specific approach. You cannot fake these effects, because it is fruit of a work in ones heart, and unless it was there there is no point to show such things. God bless you

Good works are a sign of a loving spirit at work but not all genuine believers produce good works as that is a personal choice that one makes. Believers can choose to no longer believe. Believers can choose to disobey the Word or Holy Spirit. As such, they are not producing good works. Believers who are chronically disobedient by their very actions demonstrate that they are unrepentant and thus face the prospect of spiritual death (Rom 8:13). Since they practice sinning, they are of the devil (1 Jn 3:7-8). Only believers have the possibility of apostatizing which Scripture warns against. It is impossible for unbelievers to depart from the faith when they were never in the faith to begin with. Thus it is not strange to me at all that a genuine believer can be regenerated by the Spirit and yet not show any subsequent change in their character or demonstration of good works. And that is precisely why Scripture expressly warns against gravitating toward that spiritual state.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Good works are a sign of a loving spirit at work but not all genuine believers produce good works as that is a personal choice that one makes. Believers can choose to no longer believe. Believers can choose to disobey the Word or Holy Spirit. As such, they are not producing good works. Believers who are chronically disobedient by their very actions demonstrate that they are unrepentant and thus face the prospect of spiritual death (Rom 8:13). Since they practice sinning, they are of the devil (1 Jn 3:7-8). Only believers have the possibility of apostatizing which Scripture warns against. It is impossible for unbelievers to depart from the faith when they were never in the faith to begin with. Thus it is not strange to me at all that a genuine believer can be regenerated by the Spirit and yet not show any subsequent change in their character or demonstration of good works. And that is precisely why Scripture expressly warns against gravitating toward that spiritual state.

I was looking at the sins that resulted in death in the law.
One is a town that leaves faith in God in Israel. The people are commanded to kill everyone in the town and their animals.

15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. Destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock
Deut 13

30 But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or alien, blasphemes the LORD, and that person must be cut off from his people.
Num 15

God does not change. Those who believe they can stand in Christ while sinning defiantly and as a community turning from Him should know the Lord rejects them completely.

 

[Oldmantook]

I was looking at the sins that resulted in death in the law.
One is a town that leaves faith in God in Israel. The people are commanded to kill everyone in the town and their animals.

15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. Destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock
Deut 13

30 But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or alien, blasphemes the LORD, and that person must be cut off from his people.
Num 15

God does not change. Those who believe they can stand in Christ while sinning defiantly and as a community turning from Him should know the Lord rejects them completely.

So do you agree that a genuine believer who has been regenerated by the Spirit, who subsequently no longer believes and/or chronically disobeys and as a result, incurs spiritual death which is separation from God and loss of salvation? Yes or No?

 

[Kenny'sID]

This should be a clue that perhaps what is actually going to happen is something we wouldn't understand.

I've had the idea for a few years now, it's by design that we don't understand perfecly, but it's also by design we understand enough. However, yours is an interesting concept as well.

 

[LightLoveHope]

So do you agree that a genuine believer who has been regenerated by the Spirit, who subsequently no longer believes and/or chronically disobeys and as a result, incurs spiritual death which is separation from God and loss of salvation? Yes or No?

I believe God is warning this reality can take place.
This is the logical consequence of the physicality of salvation, rather than the view we have an eternal pure spirit born into us, which is salvation, irrespective of the physical and mind and soul nature of existence.

I suspect this all hangs on the concept we are unable to walk in Jesus's ways, because we find ourselves enslaved to behaviours we do not understand or know. But as I have grown and understood, our behaviour is always cause and effect. We need to be healed, transformed, set free which comes as a result of true obedience, openness of our hearts to Him to change, and real humbleness. I am a man undone, found, lost and alone, but my King, my Lord, my Saviour has healed, rebuilt me and made me whole. I am His, and His alone, to do as He desires.

So many put caviates, defences in their hearts, areas they refuse to let Him touch. Some even have told me I cannot even discuss the subject of love and openness in their hearts, because their hearts are evil beyond Gods ability to touch. This is so odd, as Jesus calls us to forgive from our hearts, to love Him with our hearts, soul and strength which is not possible unless He cleanses and purifies us.

I saw a program about Gaddafi which showed what happens to a man totally taken over by sexual desire and absolute power, a husk of a man, lost in his desires. We are called to be the opposite to know what love and care, doing good and being one with others actually is. God bless you.

 

[Oldmantook]

I believe God is warning this reality can take place.
This is the logical consequence of the physicality of salvation, rather than the view we have an eternal pure spirit born into us, which is salvation, irrespective of the physical and mind and soul nature of existence.

I suspect this all hangs on the concept we are unable to walk in Jesus's ways, because we find ourselves enslaved to behaviours we do not understand or know. But as I have grown and understood, our behaviour is always cause and effect. We need to be healed, transformed, set free which comes as a result of true obedience, openness of our hearts to Him to change, and real humbleness. I am a man undone, found, lost and alone, but my King, my Lord, my Saviour has healed, rebuilt me and made me whole. I am His, and His alone, to do as He desires.

So many put caviates, defences in their hearts, areas they refuse to let Him touch. Some even have told me I cannot even discuss the subject of love and openness in their hearts, because their hearts are evil beyond Gods ability to touch. This is so odd, as Jesus calls us to forgive from our hearts, to love Him with our hearts, soul and strength which is not possible unless He cleanses and purifies us.

I saw a program about Gaddafi which showed what happens to a man totally taken over by sexual desire and absolute power, a husk of a man, lost in his desires. We are called to be the opposite to know what love and care, doing good and being one with others actually is. God bless you.

So I presume your answer to my very simple question is a "yes."

 

[LightLoveHope]

So I presume your answer to my very simple question is a "yes."

I would say ultimately I do not know. The disciples did not know Judas would betray them.
Similarly people in the midst turned out to be false prophets, and no one knows whether a good tree can go bad. Jesus implies a good tree is good because of good fruit, and a bad tree is bad because of bad fruit.

I have debated with "christians" subjects around repentance and faith, showing fruit of the Holy Spirit and they have suggested I am inspired by satan, deceiving others, and going to hell, even though all I have shared is scriptural. Now their language unfortunately reflects on their own lack of spiritual understanding about what judgement is, and their accusation is close to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. So I actually leave this judgement up to God to make, and rather do not wish to judge anyone but just share Gods word and His encouragement and warnings.

I have seen the fruit of saying this group are evil and lost, rather I would say what Christ calls us to, and encourage those who are prepared to listen, to follow Jesus. I cannot call them brothers or sisters in Christ because their very condemnation excludes them from fellowship, but it is for God to ultimately judge. So I cannot ever be definitive in answer to your question nor would I say is my place. God bless you.

 

[hedrick]

Likewise, I am not entirely sure that Jesus' emphasis upon salvation being achieved by our deeds (ex: Matthew 25: 31-46) can be be understood as consistent with Paul's emphasis upon salvation being dependent upon one's faith.

This is a slightly different question than the one I was responding to in the OP. The original question was about judgement, whether anyone is rejected and if so what happens. You're asking about the criteria for judgement.

However it's true that Jesus' teaching in the Synoptics is not obviously consistent with Paul's.

I think there's at least a partial answer if you look at what Paul thinks the role of faith is. (I'm repeating something I just posted in a different thread.) Justification is by faith. But justification isn't salvation.

“Much more surely then, now that we have been justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath of God.e 10 For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more surely, having been reconciled, will we be saved by his life.” (Rom 5:9-10)

Dunn’s commentary on this passage notes that in Paul save is almost always in future tense. Justification establishes a new relationship with God through Christ; secure in that relationship we then have new life, not just in final judgement but (partially) now.

If salvation is eternal life, then it is conceptually distinct from justification but is built on it.

One of the distinctive properties of Jesus’ teaching is that he emphasizes motivation and intent. That’s clearest in Mat 5 but is present throughout his teaching. Good fruit comes from good trees. It’s hard to see how we can be justified and not also produce good fruit, but they are distinct things.

Implicit in my suggestion is a specific idea of what salvation is. I'm not so sure salvation is a reward that God bestows on people who meet his requirements. In Jesus' teaching salvation is used to refer both to people who turn their lives around now and final salvation. I would say salvation is eternal life, both the new life now and the continuing new life after the resurrection. This life is built in reconciliation with God, which is justification.

This is using Pauline terminology, but I think it's there in Jesus as well, in Jesus' concept of God as Father who loves us all, forgives us, and wants us to be his children. Jesus' teachings about judgement show people as being rejected for two different types of thing: lives that show that they are fundamentally opposed to God's purpose, and rejecting the Gospel. Note that Jesus never refers to what Christians typically call "sins." I think the concept of being children, or Jesus' followers, corresponds to justification by faith, and that like Paul, Jesus thinks that new life will follow. Good trees produce good fruit.

It's also worth noting that for someone not committed to inerrancy, there's reason for a bit of concern about pictures of judgement taken from Matthew. Matthew speaks a lot more about judgement than the other Gospels, and in terms somewhat specific to Matthew. The context for 25:33 ff is pretty clearly the reaction of people to Christians, particularly in a situation of persecution. Jesus surely talked about judgement, but this passage shows some editorial influence from the late 1st Cent context. Another key passage that reflects this is Mat 7:13. In Luke 13:24 we have a city, with the normal wide public gate, and a small door that's used after the main gate is closed. The context is pretty clear that the message is "the main gate is already closed; come in before the small door closes too." At least in the current Lukan context it seems to be directed against his opponents. They will be rejected, but many others will come from East and West, North and South. In Matthew the message becomes how hard salvation is and how few reach it. In Luke I don't think the answer to "how many will be saved" is as clear, but I think the implication is "lots, but not the people who are rejecting me now."

 

[Basil the Great]

That was quite a discussion, hedrick. You always show yourself to be one of the deepest thinkers and one of the most knowledgeable posters on CF. Now, I know that I had raised a different point. I just wanted to let you know that I also find it hard to always reconcile the teachings of Jesus and Paul.

 

[Oldmantook]

I would say ultimately I do not know. The disciples did not know Judas would betray them.
Similarly people in the midst turned out to be false prophets, and no one knows whether a good tree can go bad. Jesus implies a good tree is good because of good fruit, and a bad tree is bad because of bad fruit.

I have debated with "christians" subjects around repentance and faith, showing fruit of the Holy Spirit and they have suggested I am inspired by satan, deceiving others, and going to hell, even though all I have shared is scriptural. Now their language unfortunately reflects on their own lack of spiritual understanding about what judgement is, and their accusation is close to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. So I actually leave this judgement up to God to make, and rather do not wish to judge anyone but just share Gods word and His encouragement and warnings.

I have seen the fruit of saying this group are evil and lost, rather I would say what Christ calls us to, and encourage those who are prepared to listen, to follow Jesus. I cannot call them brothers or sisters in Christ because their very condemnation excludes them from fellowship, but it is for God to ultimately judge. So I cannot ever be definitive in answer to your question nor would I say is my place. God bless you.

Thanks for your honest opinion. I would say that yes it is possible for a genuine believer to turn away from the faith because of no longer believing and/or habitual sin. That is why James wrote that if we see a wayward brother sinning and wandering from the truth we he have duty to point out to him and save his soul from death. Death of the soul is separation from God and loss of salvation.
My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, consider this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover over a multitude of sins. Js 5:19-20
So yes according to James, we can judge rightly and in doing save a fellow brother from the death of his soul. We have an obligation out of love to encourage, edify and rebuke if necessary. If we see someone drowning, we throw him a life preserver.

 

[Hillsage]

Thanks for your honest opinion. I would say that yes it is possible for a genuine believer to turn away from the faith because of no longer believing and/or habitual sin. That is why James wrote that if we see a wayward brother sinning and wandering from the truth we he have duty to point out to him and save his soul from death. Death of the soul is separation from God and loss of salvation.
My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, consider this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover over a multitude of sins. Js 5:19-20
So yes according to James, we can judge rightly and in doing save a fellow brother from the death of his soul. We have an obligation out of love to encourage, edify and rebuke if necessary. If we see someone drowning, we throw him a life preserver.

If you believe that man is a triune being of 'spirit, soul, and body', what was saved when you 'first believed'. IOW when you first 'got saved' was your spirit saved or was your soul saved or was your body saved? Or were all three saved, or just on or two out of three? If you don't believe man is triune, please just answer from your POV.

 

[Oldmantook]

If you believe that man is a triune being of 'spirit, soul, and body', what was saved when you 'first believed'. IOW when you first 'got saved' was your spirit saved or was your soul saved or was your body saved? Or were all three saved, or just on or two out of three? If you don't believe man is triune, please just answer from your POV.

When we were saved, we as whole persons were saved - spirit, soul and body. The body is the physical, fleshly part of man. The spirit is the nonphysical part of man. The soul is the combination of spirit and body; it is the whole person. In other words, man does not have a soul - he is a soul. The soul cannot be separated from the person as they are one and the same thing. Colloquial expressions such as that "poor soul" refer to the whole person, not just a part of that person. Gen 2:7 states "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Eze 18:4 states "Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine; the soul who sins shall die." Therefore, spiritual death of the soul refers to spiritual death of the person.

 

[Hillsage]

When we were saved, we as whole persons were saved - spirit, soul and body. The body is the physical, fleshly part of man. The spirit is the nonphysical part of man. The soul is the combination of spirit and body; it is the whole person. In other words, man does not have a soul - he is a soul.

So if a soul (spirit/body) is saved, why does the body still die today? While the spirit returns to "God who is spirit" at death?

And why does scripture leave out the flesh/body in the born again experience which refers only to the spirit?

JOH 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born anew.'

And why does scripture leave out spirit when body and soul are destroyed in gehenna?

MAT 10:28 'And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.

And why does scripture separate all three in one verse?

1TH 5:23 May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The soul cannot be separated from the person as they are one and the same thing. Colloquial expressions such as that "poor soul" refer to the whole person, not just a part of that person. Gen 2:7 states "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Eze 18:4 states "Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine; the soul who sins shall die." Therefore, spiritual death of the soul refers to spiritual death of the person.

So when God said "Let us make man in our image" do you believe God was triune? Or that God had a body of flesh and a Holy Spirit?

How do you reconcile that with Jesus saying "God IS spirit" period, in John? I could go on with much more, but these are enough for you to realize my difficulty in the biparte makeup of man. As well as the limiting of man's full salvation salvation to a one time event as opposed to a three fold event which is a progressive salvation from spirit/justified to soul/being sanctified and awaiting a futuristic body/glorified.

And what do you do with scripture saying that the words for "living soul" are the same Hebrew words for "living creature" when talking about the animals. Are they too made in God's image?

GEN 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living/chay creature/nephesh after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

GEN 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living/chay soul/nephesh.

 

[Oldmantook]

So if a soul (spirit/body) is saved, why does the body still die today? While the spirit returns to "God who is spirit" at death?

Does not the body physically die and remain/decay in the grave? The spirit meanwhile which is the immaterial part of the body returns to God. I see no conflict in that as the body remains in the grave and the spirit returns to God.

And why does scripture leave out the flesh/body in the born again experience which refers only to the spirit?

Just because something is left out, we are not free to assume that it is not included as that may amount to sheer presumption on our part. Moreover, are not persons born again? I assume you as a person are born again. Therefore, you as soul/person with a body of flesh are born again. Again, I see no conflict here.

And why does scripture leave out spirit when body and soul are destroyed in gehenna?

The spirit is not left out. The soul is the person who consists of both body and spirit. Your assumption is unwarranted.

MAT 10:28 'And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.

Because you forget or do not acknowledge that the soul is a person consisting of both body AND spirit. Therefore men are able to kill/destroy the singular fleshly body of another man. However, they are not able to kill the soul which consists of BOTH the body AND the spirit of a man. Only God can destroy the soul.

So when God said "Let us make man in our image" do you believe God was triune? Or that God had a body of flesh and a Holy Spirit?

Not sure if God is triune or not. I haven't studied it enough. However that being said, just because God is triune it does not logically conclude that man has to be tripartite. May be a case of comparing apples and oranges.

How do you reconcile that with Jesus saying "God IS spirit" period, in John? I could go on with much more, but these are enough for you to realize my difficulty in the biparte makeup of man. As well as the limiting of man's full salvation salvation to a one time event as opposed to a three fold event which is a progressive salvation from spirit/justified to soul/being sanctified and awaiting a futuristic body/glorified.

God is Spirit. God is God. Man is not God so to attempt to compare the the two as if they possess similar make-up (triune and tripartite) is to force the comparison and could qualify as a logical fallacy. Salvation is a one-time event but also conditioned upon sanctification. If one does not continue to live a sanctified life and is instead habitually disobedient, salvation is no longer assured of.

And what do you do with scripture saying that the words for "living soul" are the same Hebrew words for "living creature" when talking about the animals. Are they too made in God's image?

As far as I'm aware Scripture makes no reference to animals as made in God's image. You have committed the logical fallacy of overgeneralizing. Just because something is a living soul, it does not automatically mean that also have to be made in God's image. Just guessing but I'm 99.9% certain that an ant who is a living creature is not made in God's image. That would be far-fetched.

 

[Pedra]

Gehenna was actually the garbage dump outside Jerusalem.

Yes that is one of the meanings of gehenna but this term "Gehenna" was used a couple of ways. In the "hell" reference was used as a description for a place of burning of rubbish. Read in this link that gives Biblical references to 'gehenna' and hell references, etc.

What is Gehenna? | GotQuestions.org