Response to Confused about Hell

[Shrewd Manager]

I have to say though that I'm not entirely sure that Jesus' teachings in the Synoptic Gospels can actually be understood as consistent with Paul's. Reading Jesus' stories of judgement as not indicating eternal punishment seems like the most hopeful way of understanding them as consistent.

May I reiterate my earlier suggestion hedrick my man to the effect that you're losing sight of the glorious garden as you hack your way through the weeds. MAKE WAY FOR GOD'S GRACE AND MERCY. Incompatible with eternal damnation and irremediable capital punishment.

Without the touchstone of God's goodness and radical love for His creatures, you'll be tormented by uncertainty. Cast it down in Jesus' mighty name bro!

 

[hedrick]

So with Matthew 25, if punishment is not eternal then life is not eternal.

I've seen this in lots of similar discussions. I already rejected the parallelism. But I think something also should be said about eternal life. I believe that term may also be non-literal. No, I don't mean that whatever happens after death has a time limit. But I also don't think it's necessarily just like life now except it goes on forever. God is most likely in some sense outside of time. At least outside of our current timeline. This raises the possibility that eternal life is also.

 

[Anguspure]

I've seen this in lots of similar discussions. I already rejected the parallelism. But I think something also should be said about eternal life. I believe that term may also be non-literal. No, I don't mean that whatever happens after death has a time limit. But I also don't think it's necessarily just like life now except it goes on forever. God is most likely in some sense outside of time. At least outside of our current timeline. This raises the possibility that eternal life is also.

I also find it interesting that the residents of the New Jerusalem continue to make use of the water and the tree of Life.
"Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations."
Does this not imply that eternal life is not an automatic thing, that just as for Adam and Eve their life was sustained only by eating and drinking?

 

[hedrick]

I also find it interesting that the residents of the New Jerusalem continue to make use of the water and the tree of Life.
"Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations."
Does this not imply that eternal life is not an automatic thing, that just as for Adam and Eve their life was sustained only by eating and drinking?

First, it is very unlikely that the picture at the end of the Rev. is literal. It's very unlikely that we wash literal robes in blood. Yuck.

Second, note that the water comes from God. I think the symbolism here is that God and what comes from God sustains us.

I wouldn't push the symbolism beyond its intent, making the water something magical that you have to drink once every 24 hours or you turn to dust, or something like that. I believe the intent was that eternal life depends upon God. Christians have often said that even the current world is sustained by God.

"one does not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD." Deut 8:3, quoted by Jesus in Mat 4:4

 

[Anguspure]

First, it is very unlikely that the picture at the end of the Rev. is literal. It's very unlikely that we wash literal robes in blood. Yuck.

Second, note that the water comes from God. I think the symbolism here is that God and what comes from God sustains us.

I wouldn't push the symbolism beyond its intent, making the water something magical that you have to drink once every 24 hours or you turn to dust, or something like that. I believe the intent was that eternal life depends upon God. Christians have often said that even the current world is sustained by God.

He is our tree of Life.

 

[Hazelelponi]

...

I also find it interesting that the residents of the New Jerusalem continue to make use of the water and the tree of Life.
"Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations."
Does this not imply that eternal life is not an automatic thing, that just as for Adam and Eve their life was sustained only by eating and drinking?

The Bible tells you the water is the Holy Spirit (John 7:37-39) And the fruit of the tree is the fruit of the Holy Spirit.. This is New Covenant imagery..

 

[hedrick]

...


The Bible tells you the water is the Holy Spirit (John 7:37-39) And the fruit of the tree are the 12 fruits of the Holy Spirit..

Symbols don't have to mean just one thing. I suspect the Word of God is intended, per Deut 8:3 || Mat 4:4.

 

[dqhall]

To die forever is eternal condemnation. In as much as Jesus taught people to bless and not curse, torture is out. There is enough sorrow from illness, injury, violence, loss and poverty. These are not God’s fault.

Jesus stayed in Capernaum and did miracles in the name of God. The nearby villages of Chorazin and Bethsaida wanted miracles too, but they did not obey God. Not everyone will be saved.

Matthew 21 WEB - public domain
20 Then he began to denounce the cities in which most of his mighty works had been done, because they didn’t repent. 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon which were done in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23 You, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, you will go down to Hades. For if the mighty works had been done in Sodom which were done in you, it would have remained until today. 24 But I tell you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom on the day of judgment, than for you.”

 

[DamianWarS]

Yes I hear this a lot. Jesus spoke of eternal life and everlasting life often. Everyone agrees that’s what He speaks of except when He used the same word for punishment. Why is that?

the anthesis of eternal life would be eternal death which sounds more like annihilation.

 

[dqhall]

the anthesis of eternal life would be eternal death which sounds more like annihilation.

Isaiah 40 (WEB)
8 The grass withers,
the flower fades;
but the word of our God stands forever.

 

[DamianWarS]

Isaiah 40 (WEB)
8 The grass withers,
the flower fades;
but the word of our God stands forever.

I'm not sure your intended meaning of this?

 

[redleghunter]

the anthesis of eternal life would be eternal death which sounds more like annihilation.

Except annihilation is finite and not eternal.

 

[~Zao~]

It is eternal for as long as the places exist or are in existence.

ya'k

 

[redleghunter]

Alright. Note the time frame of Matt. 25.
31When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne. 32All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will place the sheep on His right and the goats on His left.
V.31 states this judgment takes place when the Jesus comes in His glory with the angels = the Second Coming at the end of the tribulation period. He will sit on His glorious throne indicates the beginning of His Millennial Reign on the earth. The sheep and goats are those nations/peoples that are alive at his return and they are judged according to their works - how they treated the brethren during the tribulation prior to Jesus' return. Thus in v.46 Jesus allows the sheep nations to enter into 1,000 year reign of Christ on the earth. He then condemns the goats for the same period of time. Young's Literal Translation has the correct translation of this verse:
46And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.’
By contrast, the GWT judgment takes place after the Millennial Kingdom. Thus two different judgments which is why v.46 cannot mean eternal.

Thank you for the detailed response. Just to confirm you see Matthew 25:31-46 as the First Resurrection heading into the Millennial Kingdom? The below?

Revelation 20: NASB

1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the Abyss, holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3And he threw him into the Abyss, shut it, and sealed it over him, so that he could not deceive the nations until the thousand years were complete. After that, he must be released for a brief period of time.

4Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection.6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

7When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison,8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to assemble them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the seashore.

 

[Oldmantook]

I've seen this in lots of similar discussions. I already rejected the parallelism. But I think something also should be said about eternal life. I believe that term may also be non-literal. No, I don't mean that whatever happens after death has a time limit. But I also don't think it's necessarily just like life now except it goes on forever. God is most likely in some sense outside of time. At least outside of our current timeline. This raises the possibility that eternal life is also.

Eternal life is literal but the germane question is, does eternal life literally mean forever? I submit that it does not based on Jesus' own teaching. If you review the story about the rich young ruler's question to Jesus about how he might obtain eternal life, Jesus' explanation to his disciples is particularly instructive. Jesus used the terms kingdom of God and kingdom of heaven interchangeably in reference to eternal life. From this we can deduce that kingdom of God = kingdom of heaven = eternal life. It is a fact that the Jews were anticipating the arrival of their Messiah as a conquering king who would subdue their enemies and set up his physical kingdom on the earth. Thus the rich young ruler, who was a Jew asked Jesus about eternal life in reference to life during the Millennium - not life forever. Thus eternal life means life during the 1,000 year reign of Christ where those who overcome co-reign with Jesus during his millennial kingdom reign. We have misconstrued the word eternal to mean forever. Thus if eternal life is not forever, then eternal punishment is not forever either.

 

[Oldmantook]

Thank you for the detailed response. Just to confirm you see Matthew 25:31-46 as the First Resurrection heading into the Millennial Kingdom? The below?

Revelation 20: NASB

1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the Abyss, holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3And he threw him into the Abyss, shut it, and sealed it over him, so that he could not deceive the nations until the thousand years were complete. After that, he must be released for a brief period of time.

4Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection.6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

7When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison,8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to assemble them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the seashore.

Yes, the first resurrection occurs at Jesus' return but note that there are also people alive at his return who compose the sheep - goat nations. This is the beginning of the Millennial Age of Christ's rule on the earth and the sheep nations who are alive at the time are allowed to live on the earth during the millennium. V. 5 states that the "rest of the dead" did not come back to life until "the thousand years were complete." After the 1,000 years, these resurrected dead are the ones judged at the GWT judgment.

 

[redleghunter]

Yes, the first resurrection occurs at Jesus' return but note that there are also people alive at his return who compose the sheep - goat nations. This is the beginning of the Millennial Age of Christ's rule on the earth and the sheep nations who are alive at the time are allowed to live on the earth during the millennium. V. 5 states that the "rest of the dead" did not come back to life until "the thousand years were complete." After the 1,000 years, these resurrected dead are the ones judged at the GWT judgment.

Thanks. That seems to be the big question. In what I quoted from Revelation 20, there is no mention of anyone but those who did not take the mark. And the ones who don’t are Resurrected and become priests for God in the millennial kingdom.

Now we can read between the lines a bit and hypothesize there were survivors who were not saved or were saved but did not die and who enter the kingdom. But that is not certain from the passages.

And we don’t see in the passages a judgment for those who are goats. The ones who take the mark and worship the beast are dead and won’t be raised until Judgment day.

So there are some “eschatological holes” here. And perhaps maybe we being this up in a prophecy thread.

 

[Oldmantook]

Thanks. That seems to be the big question. In what I quoted from Revelation 20, there is no mention of anyone but those who did not take the mark. And the ones who don’t are Resurrected and become priests for God in the millennial kingdom.

Now we can read between the lines a bit and hypothesize there were survivors who were not saved or were saved but did not die and who enter the kingdom. But that is not certain from the passages.

And we don’t see in the passages a judgment for those who are goats. The ones who take the mark and worship the beast are dead and won’t be raised until Judgment day.

So there are some “eschatological holes” here. And perhaps maybe we being this up in a prophecy thread.

Agreed, it can be a complicated subject. Those who did not take the mark and in fact got their heads chopped off for refusing the mark get to live and co-rein with Christ for a 1,000 years (Rev 20:5). My opinion is that the sheep who are alive at Jesus' return are not saved - only that they ministered good works to the brethren during the tribulation and a result they are allowed to inhabit the kingdom. The goats on the other hand are also unsaved but unlike the sheep they neglected to minister good works to the brethren and as a result Jesus commands them to depart. These are mortals who are still alive at Christ's return unlike the saints who were caught up at Jesus' return. The saints are the ones who are given rule and authority to reign over the sheep nations during the Millennium. These sheep are ruled by Jesus with a "rod of iron" during the Millennium.

 

[redleghunter]

Agreed, it can be a complicated subject. Those who did not take the mark and in fact got their heads chopped off for refusing the mark get to live and co-rein with Christ for a 1,000 years (Rev 20:5). My opinion is that the sheep who are alive at Jesus' return are not saved - only that they ministered good works to the brethren during the tribulation and a result they are allowed to inhabit the kingdom. The goats on the other hand are also unsaved but unlike the sheep they neglected to minister good works to the brethren and as a result Jesus commands them to depart. These are mortals who are still alive at Christ's return unlike the saints who were caught up at Jesus' return. The saints are the ones who are given rule and authority to reign over the sheep nations during the Millennium. These sheep are ruled by Jesus with a "rod of iron" during the Millennium.

Now that you got my prophecy radar up a bit, I may just have to explore this more. I made a decision 7 years ago not to get deeply involved in internet end times debates and discussions as you know how those threads end up. I’ve dabbled a bit in some here and other places when I see something interesting. Might have to at least look at the Gospel passages and compare again the OT passages along with the epistles and Revelation.

There was a decent book I picked up from a pile of donated books when I was on deployment over 10 years ago which compared the various futurist views of end times. Browsed it a bit looked as if it was even handed but got busy quick and left it back on the pile. Will have to see if I remember the title. Maybe you might know what I speak of. It was a collection of views, not the usual point counter point type book.

 

[Oldmantook]

Now that you got my prophecy radar up a bit, I may just have to explore this more. I made a decision 7 years ago not to get deeply involved in internet end times debates and discussions as you know how those threads end up. I’ve dabbled a bit in some here and other places when I see something interesting. Might have to at least look at the Gospel passages and compare again the OT passages along with the epistles and Revelation.

There was a decent book I picked up from a pile of donated books when I was on deployment over 10 years ago which compared the various futurist views of end times. Browsed it a bit looked as if it was even handed but got busy quick and left it back on the pile. Will have to see if I remember the title. Maybe you might know what I speak of. It was a collection of views, not the usual point counter point type book.

Yes I know what you mean. Discussions can get heated and become futile instead of edifying which is why I appreciate the tenor of your replies. The main take away for me at least is that I think we have been led into believing that eternal life is life forever with God in heaven when it actually means life during the age of Christ's Millennium on the earth - a finite; not infinite period of time. That is why interestingly, the parable of the talents in Matt 25 precedes the description of the sheep-goat judgment in the same chapter. Those believers who used their talents wisely in this church age are thus rewarded with ruling over the sheep in the next millennial age (finite period of time) based upon their stewardship of their talents in this life.

I don't know of which book you referred to. One major key/clue for me is Paul's use of the word "exanastasis" - only single occurrence is found in Phil 3:10-11. He wrote that he had not yet attained to it in v.11. What was he referring to? This word differs from the word resurrection as the prefix "ex" means "out" thus can be translated as "out-resurrection." Not all attain to it. Given Paul's example for us as a model Christian, what does that mean for us if Paul himself stated that he had not yet attained it? We know that Paul suffered greatly for Christ. It appears that he was like-minded in keeping with the Hebrew women described in Heb 11:35 who "were tortured, not accepting their deliverance that they might obtain a better resurrection." I believe the "better resurrection" is the "out-resurrection" which is ruling with Jesus for 1,000 years - not eternity with God in heaven.
Hope this makes some sense but I admit it is a hard pill to swallow given what we have been traditionally taught. And if so, the goal posts have been lowered and even switched on us.