Response to Confused about Hell

redleghunter · Aug 30, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
Jesus was not an analytic philosopher and did not use precise language, but some people bring that cultural expectation to the reading of the Biblical text.

Huh? He sure did use precise language. He quoted the Law and Prophets and Psalms which the people KNEW.

Der Alte · Aug 30, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
Gehenna was actually the garbage dump outside Jerusalem.

That is incorrect. That is a an internet legend with no evidence to support it.

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1

/…..Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20113-the-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna-is-a-myth/

Miqweh of Second Temple Period. ......Jerusalem City-Dump in the Late Second Temple Period, ZDPV, 119/1 (2003),
The chance discovery of an Early Roman city dump (1st century CE) in Jerusalem has yielded for the first time ever quantitative data on garbage components that introduce us to the mundane daily life Jerusalemites led and the kind of animals that were featured in their diet. Most of the garbage consists of pottery shards, all common tableware, while prestige objects are entirely absent. Other significant garbage components include numerous fragments of cooking ovens, wall plaster, animal bones and plant remains. Of the pottery vessels, cooking pots are the most abundant type. Most of the refuse turns out to be “household garbage” originating in the domestic areas of the city, while large numbers of cooking pots may point to the presence of pilgrims. Significantly, the faunal assemblage, which is dominated by kosher species and the clear absence of pigs, set Jerusalem during its peak historical period apart from all other contemporaneous Roman urban centers.
...
Excavations near the Temple Mount and within the residential areas have already shown that no waste had accumulated there (Reich and Billig 2000), and thus waste must have been removed, most likely in an organized manner. Recently, the contemporaneous city-dump was identified on the eastern slope of the south-eastern hill of Jerusalem in the form of a thick mantle (up to 10 m, 200,000 m3 ) (Reich and Shukron 2003). The dump is located roughly 100 m outside and south-east of the Temple Mount on the eastern slope of the Kidron Valley (fig. 1), and extends at least 400 m and is 50–70 m wide. Large amounts of pottery and coins date the dump to the Early Roman period (the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE up to the destruction of the city by the Romans in 70 CE). A preliminary study of the garbage (Bouchnik, Bar-Oz and Reich 2004; Bouchnik et al. 2005) showed the presence of animal bones, and a detailed multidisciplinary joint study of the debris was carried out.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...udy_of_the_City-Dump_of_Early_Roman_Jerusalem

~Zao~ · Aug 30, 2019

Mixing the valley with the mountains beyond is the revealed way of what not to do as the prophets of old had done. There are different offices in the 1000 yr reign (amillennium or whatever) of king, priest, nations. That’s kinda self evident in the Matthew chapter 25. However that has nothing to do with eternity due to the further revelations of the different thrones of judgement.

FireDragon76 · Aug 30, 2019

redleghunter said:
Huh? He sure did use precise language. He quoted the Law and Prophets and Psalms which the people KNEW.

So you really think Jesus expects his disciples to rip out their eyes or cut off their arms?

Oldmantook · Aug 30, 2019

redleghunter said:
Yes I hear this a lot. Jesus spoke of eternal life and everlasting life often. Everyone agrees that’s what He speaks of except when He used the same word for punishment. Why is that?

So with Matthew 25, if punishment is not eternal then life is not eternal.

One can run with the root word fallacy to death to avoid what is obviously clear.

Word-Study Fallacies by Robert Cara

Incorrect. Matt 25:46 refers to the sheep-goat judgment (not GWT judgment) which deals with the Millennial Age of Christ's reign. Thus it cannot mean "eternal" but is limited to an age of 1,000 years.

redleghunter · Aug 30, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
So you really think Jesus expects his disciples to rip out their eyes or cut off their arms?

Of course not.

redleghunter · Aug 30, 2019

Oldmantook said:
Incorrect. Matt 25:46 refers to the sheep-goat judgment (not GWT judgment) which deals with the Millennial Age of Christ's reign. Thus it cannot mean "eternal" but is limited to an age of 1,000 years.

Show me.

S.O.J.I.A. · Aug 30, 2019

context and basic reading comprehension skills are really reeeally important!

Oldmantook · Aug 31, 2019

redleghunter said:
Show me.

I'm sure you can read its context. If you can't, let me know. I won't do your reading for you.

redleghunter · Aug 31, 2019

Oldmantook said:
I'm sure you can read its context. If you can't, let me know. I won't do your reading for you.

I meant lay out why you think Matthew 25 is not the GWT Judgment.

Oldmantook · Aug 31, 2019

redleghunter said:
I meant lay out why you think Matthew 25 is not the GWT Judgment.

Alright. Note the time frame of Matt. 25.
31When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne. 32All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will place the sheep on His right and the goats on His left.
V.31 states this judgment takes place when the Jesus comes in His glory with the angels = the Second Coming at the end of the tribulation period. He will sit on His glorious throne indicates the beginning of His Millennial Reign on the earth. The sheep and goats are those nations/peoples that are alive at his return and they are judged according to their works - how they treated the brethren during the tribulation prior to Jesus' return. Thus in v.46 Jesus allows the sheep nations to enter into 1,000 year reign of Christ on the earth. He then condemns the goats for the same period of time. Young's Literal Translation has the correct translation of this verse:
46And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.’
By contrast, the GWT judgment takes place after the Millennial Kingdom. Thus two different judgments which is why v.46 cannot mean eternal.

Anguspure · Aug 31, 2019

redleghunter said:
Yes I hear this a lot. Jesus spoke of eternal life and everlasting life often. Everyone agrees that’s what He speaks of except when He used the same word for punishment. Why is that?

So with Matthew 25, if punishment is not eternal then life is not eternal.

One can run with the root word fallacy to death to avoid what is obviously clear.

Word-Study Fallacies by Robert Cara

As I have pointed out before, there is an eternal punishment that does not involve consciousness and that is death. At the point of final death and destruction a person cease to be conscious for eternity.

Anguspure · Aug 31, 2019

redleghunter said:
And a very good illustration of what eternal torment would be. If indeed the garbage dump was constantly burning.

That has little bearing on the clarity portrayed. Jesus was preaching to goat herders, fishermen and farmers. He was not waxing existentially like some Hindi guru. These were simple people raised in the Law and Prophets. Very concrete teachings.

Let’s not try to tack on Eastern mysticism and the river of 10,000 voices.

That’s not the Hebrew tradition or the God revealed in the Holy Scriptures.

Except that living bodies were not to be found in the garbage dump, only dead, unconscious ones.

LightLoveHope · Aug 31, 2019

hedrick said:
A new member posted a question in For New Christians that can't be answered there.

He noted that people make very convincing cases for annihilation, eternal torment, and universalism.

Here is the point. It is our hearts that settle on the approach and attitude the Lord has.
Scripture like life is largely emotional, one group liking or attacking another group, one
person being exalted and succeeding while another tries and fails.

Nothing is forced, it is laid out like a massive jigsaw for us to observe and take in.
How we react is up to us.

Do we want revenge so badly all our enemies must burn in torment eternally while we
gloat over their fate?
Do we love everyone so much, that there are no ultimate consequences for anyones actions
they are just accepted and loved?
Is life so precious to be born and to have an opportunity at learning love and life is worth
more than failure to know the Lord and walk in His ways, that will eventually result?
Does it make sense to fill the lake of fire with most of mankind, when so few make it through
to communion and oneness with the Lord?

I have spoken to pacifist who insist the use of force is not necessary. The problem is there
are crazy people who will cause harm and violence if given the chance and need containment,
while any moral or rational debate will not stop them. Without this restraint our society
would be so unpredictable and out of control it would not work. Total strangers exchanging
goods for the benefit of all is a fantastic achievement, across the whole world, being able
to feed 7 billion people. It is literally awe inspiring how law and its consequences bring about
so much. God bless you.

Neogaia777 · Aug 31, 2019

redleghunter said:
If we allow ourselves to dismiss clear teachings as imagery, then we can come to whatever conclusion suits us.

Why is not imagery, or not our literal, possibly meaning something else...?

Neogaia777 · Aug 31, 2019

LoreneDD said:
Eternal life is the sole gift of the Father but punishment is the domain of Christ. The 1000 yr scripture opens a debate as whether punishment is eternal or not.

It is eternal for as long as the places exist or are in existence.

Neogaia777 · Aug 31, 2019

redleghunter said:
Yes I hear this a lot. Jesus spoke of eternal life and everlasting life often. Everyone agrees that’s what He speaks of except when He used the same word for punishment. Why is that?

So with Matthew 25, if punishment is not eternal then life is not eternal.

Wrong... One place exists, or is existence for as long as it is in existence, (or if it is recreated, ect, to exist again for a temporary time in the light of true eternity, etc, or in light of what is truly eternal, etc)... Anyway, one place exists, or is in existence for as long and it is in existence, and the other place, the better place, transcends that, and therefore is not, but is truly eternal...

Neogaia777 · Aug 31, 2019

Is what we see about Heaven or paradise literal? and, if not, why should we expect (the fires of) Hell, or the "reality of Hell", to be so also, or not also, etc...?

Neogaia777 · Aug 31, 2019

I won't beat around the bush OK...

Hell is here, or is what staying here, and being here and being recycled here (possibly), and never ever being, or ever being meant for being anything more, or going to anything more, ever... Permanently left behind, and that never, ever changing, ever, forever, etc... It and they will be destroyed when this creation or this type of reality or existence ceases to be anymore, till it is again, and then not when it is not again, etc...

They are never more than nothing really, just temporary constructs or programs meant for a temporary purpose involving us who do transcend, or will be or become truly eternal, but beyond that are nothing, or never not anything more, ever, etc, forever, etc...

Sounds like someones idea of hell to me...

God Bless!

Hazelelponi · Aug 31, 2019

hedrick said:
But I would hope not many are actually considered worthy of a fate that was designed for Satan

You said worthy of a fate that was designed for Satan, but that's not what the Bible says.. the Bible says the lake of fire was prepared for Satan and his angels....

As it is written: How beautiful are the feet of those who bring the good news(Romans 10:15, Isaiah 52:7)...

But what of those who bring the bad news? According to scripture they share in Satan's fate.

In case you needed help to distinguish whose actually doing the work of Satan:

Jesus said "Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters." Matthew 12:30

Response to Confused about Hell

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