Response from nirotu

[nirotu]

Do you believe in Bhagwat Geeta?

Dear Coolbodhi:

Yes and no. I read that part of Gita in which Krishna is glorified as divine (Chapter 16). The rest is just an epic written by Vyasa to bring about wisdom and understanding of God. Those exact sayings can also be found in the Bible. However, I would be interested in your opinion on this.

There is a school of thought that believes that Krishna of Mahabharata and Krishna of Gita Upadesha are different! Many Indian scholars have emphatically confirmed that it is very difficult to see Sreekrishna, the hero of history of Mahabharatha as the ethereal and saintly Sreekrishna of Gita.

See for example,

Dr. S. Radhakrishnan ( Bhagavath Gita Page 28),
Swamy Vivekananda (The complete work of Swamy Vivekananda. Vol 1, Page 438),
Mahatma Gandhi (Gita – My mother Page 38),
Vinobha Bhave ( Talk on the Gita Page 11).

All have come to the same conclusion as you read the reference. What’s your take on this?

Could you please elaborate on this? What do you mean when you say that we are 'condemned to struggle like a mortal and die in ignorance

This is in reference to John 3:18,"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.Jesus never said that if you believe in Him you are saved or else you are condemned." (NIV)

It is misinterpreted by many to be literally so. Christ Jesus could not have said that because many before He was born were saved, who did not know Jesus.

What in fact Jesus meant was this:
John 12:47"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it.(NIV)"

He referes to man's suffering, which itself is a hell of ignorance if he did not heed to the word of Jesus. Which is clear from this passage:

John 12:46,"I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.(NIV)"

He came here to bring us that awarness by removing the veil of ignorance.

Surrender to GOD. Should one surrender to GOD or Jesus?

Man has a choice! You decide what it is going to be with you. I know for sure Jesus is God incarnate.

BTW, I am not a Buddhist.

Blessings,

 

[MahaSudarshanChakra]

Nirotu,

Many of my own views may be considered heretic among main stream Christianity. I think today the doctrine in Christianity has more to do with the “will of the Church” than with the “will of the Father.” I am sorry to say it is true, at least it appears to me that way.

Possible, I think I posted a message here about my friend who broke off from the church. I think God is related directly to man, not thru any official bodies or prophets.

Jesus could not have meant that if you did not believe in Him, you have eternal damnation! No. Because, many before Jesus (like Abraham, Moses, Elijah and many Saints) have been saved before Jesus was born. Therefore, the statement is self-defeating if taken literally. Also, to think that God somehow condemns non-believers as sinners is also self-defeating since Lord himself dwells amongst all and it would only mean self-condemnation.

This is a self contradictory statement from you. If you are ever going to state that the Lord dwelleth in all, there cannot be condemnation ever, whether somebody beleives in God or Jesus or follow some right way of living like Buddha. When you attribute divinity to something - it can no longer be called evil. Even my school does not accept that evil is real, but comes from false identification of the soul with the body and not its true self. When wisdom dawns some time that the soul is divine, it can no longer be associated with evil.

Here is how I would take it to mean. I consider the life is a precious gift from God. How we use our gift of life is very important to God. Therefore, the life time we have, however short, on earth is an opportunity to better ourselves because there is no second chance. Why would one postpone that opportunity to the next life is not clear to me.

Dear nirotu, you are missing the most important point. You agree that God gave us free will, but are stating that we are given no real chance to express our free will. If the only valid free will is to search for God, then what is the meaning of free will?

Some of us realize that this earthly opportunity is for making ourselves close to God. What about people who have not realized this fact - the atheists, people who beleive in their own abilities etc.

Without a concept of next life - free will breaks into just two options

a) Use your free will, drop your brains, and choose to blindly beleive in a God and surender to his grace, and be saved.

b) Use your God given brain a bit, realize that there is no real evidence for God, or that salvation is possible without God's grace, and you are eternally separated from God.

Dont you see the irony in the above logic?

Many lives give more people chance( if not all) to find a way back to the divine father. I have no reasons to beleive that God did not give to a chance to everyone.

I do understand VA school in this regard. However I do notice the difference between two schools (VA and Christianity), where the Christian deeply cares for his salvation. While he is surrendering to God’s Mercy but lives and thinks that it is the grace that has brought him thus far and only grace will lead him home.

No, you got me wrong. No Vaishnavite ever makes a plea to God to grant him salvation. I love God for love's sake only - not for eartly pleasure, heaven or becoming God. We do not expect any favour from God for this love - including salvation and eternal bliss. Whatver the Lord gives me, that is it. If I am to be born many times and singing priases of the Lord every time, every true Vaishnavite is contended with that. Salvation is considered a mere by product of this love, and never as an objective to be met.

This is where I see the fundamental difference in two doctrines. If you mean that religion is humanity’s search for the divine through these processes, it is bound to fail. We are God’s creation and we are His creatures. How can creature aspire to reach God, the creator? I believe, far from all religions leading to God, no religion can lead to God. Therefore, the creature cannot possibly discover the creator unless God chooses to disclose Himself. It is said in Isaiah 55, 8:"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. 10” As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.”

Therefore, it makes sense to me that instead of man reaching God, God Himself reaching to Human in flesh. Therefore, Christian truly believes not only in revelation of His will but His “self” also in the Bible.

The "supreme self" resides in the "individual self" is a basic doctrine of all Hindu schools. So, God is revealed either directly by the supreme self or the "divine inside you". These are not contradictory to Hinduism.

To me atheism has no meaning. When a person (atheist) who claims there is no God has already contradicted himself. He would say that based on knowledge of this complete universe. Only person with such knowledge is God therefore he essentially proved himself to be God.

Atheism has no meaning to me too. But I would never wish or hope that an atheist die in ignorance about God. We beleive the Lord shows the way to all someday, if not now.

The very fact that the man rejected God shows his willful disobedience. It is not because they have not heard the Gospel that they are condemned but because they reject the righteousness they already know. Therefore, rejecting the righteousness is rejecting God.

To be frank, you have contradicted every post of yours here by sticking to dogma again. Man is divine, and how can he "reject" God? What do you mean by rejecting God? What is the proof of God, by the way?

But, I consider God is merciful and just to all – not just Christians. There no such thing as “unfair treatment” coming from God. God is just and righteous. Even for a child born in Hindu family, God's "common" grace is active in the world even without His "saving" grace. This common grace is represented in our conscience and the Imago Dei (image of God) which all people possess. Man is essentially good only in this sense, that He is created in God's image and follows that image irrespective of their relationship with God. Man is essentially evil in the sense that he rejects God as the basis for that goodness. So, I attribute any good that anyone knows and does by instinct as part of the image of God. Any good that we do with respect to choosing God is done because God has sovereignly moved in our hearts to recognize and love Him (reconciliation). Accordingly God’s justice works in a believer and non-believer whether he is a child or an adult.

This contradicts heavily with many of the posts you made earlier.

Man is not evil. His apparent nature is a clash of his divine spark versus the prakriti modes that he is associated with, the three modes of ignorance, passion and goodness. When the goodness prevails, his divinity shines forth. In the mode of passion and ignorance, man has to work hard to move towards God.

You may not agree with all I am saying but that is the nature of such discussion forums. I hope that our differences in opinion would not come in the way our respect for each other.

Sure, we cant agree on all points. But I noticed that though you claimed that you are a "heretic" you are still entangled in the dogma of "Reject God or struggle in ignorance for eternity" . I think you are no heretic as you claimed.

 

[selwyn]

This is a self contradictory statement from you.

To be frank, you have contradicted every post of yours here by sticking to dogma again.

Isn't that what is known as the kettle calling the pot black? Man. How on earth can you make such a big hypocritical claim like this in here ? Aren't you the same person who boasted about changing moods and opinions of yours influencing your opinions to even contradict yourself at times? And aren't you the one who boasted about your own speculations and the incoherence of hinduic scripture?

 

[MahaSudarshanChakra]

Isn't that what is known as the kettle calling the pot black? Man. How on earth can you make such a big hypocritical claim like this in here ? Aren't you the same person who boasted about changing moods and opinions of yours influencing your opinions to even contradict yourself at times? And aren't you the one who boasted about your own speculations and the incoherence of hinduic scripture?

I am paying you in the same coin. I am asking nirotu if he also suffers from changing moods. I am sure nirotu can defend his statements.

I never claimed to a kettle or a pot. You seemed to pretend that you always made coherent claims and Christianity had no contradictions and did not provide a single line of defence to any question asked by me or any other Hindu - just ran away by saying "I prefer not to answer you" and now suddenly junping into the water. You will get drowned if you continue this way, well you already have.

Selwyn, I dont see your point and logic - you are never for a discussion and it is better for u to be a spectator.

 

[nirotu]

Dear Sudarshan:

This is a self contradictory statement from you. If you are ever going to state that the Lord dwelleth in all, there cannot be condemnation ever, whether somebody beleives in God or Jesus or follow some right way of living like Buddha. When you attribute divinity to something - it can no longer be called evil.

Sudarshan, you are misinterpreting what Christ and Christianity stands for with your false logic. I never said man is divine. The very purpose of God Jesus coming down from heaven to save mankind shows the lack of divinity in humans. When I say God dwells in us is a metaphor to indicate He created us with His attributes, thus, He is in a way represented in us. That is nowhere near being divine.

Even my school does not accept that evil is real, but comes from false identification of the soul with the body and not its true self. When wisdom dawns some time that the soul is divine, it can no longer be associated with evil.

My friend, evil is not an illusion that somehow results from a faulty perspective of God. It is as real and pervasive as a nose on your face. We live in this world where our sensory perception is keen to realize and experience the evil. I do not subscribe to Shankara School to dismiss evil as an illusion (Maya).

Some of us realize that this earthly opportunity is for making ourselves close to God. What about people who have not realized this fact - the atheists, people who beleive in their own abilities etc.

When a person who is willfully determined to conduct his own way in life, God will simply step aside and let it take it's course. It is the same person when realizes the difference between his actions and God’s “will”, will some day come back to God like a prodigal son. He will never be refused by God. If I willfully defy the gravity and walk over the edge of a cliff, I am bound to fall. But if I knew what God has set forth to understand His creation I probably will do well.

We are all given an opportunity do that which is good. Because good is all God and it pleases God. Why was Ramanuja leading a morally upright life? Because he knew that is the way to please the God. He exercised his choices correctly. Likewise we can all exercise similar choices that which pleases God. In every case, however, God will not force you to make that choice.

Without a concept of next life - free will breaks into just two options

a) Use your free will, drop your brains, and choose to blindly beleive in a God and surender to his grace, and be saved.

b) Use your God given brain a bit, realize that there is no real evidence for God, or that salvation is possible without God's grace, and you are eternally separated from God.

Both a and b represent your karmic philosophy. That is to keep doing karma and obtain salvation. Because you do not believe that there is no “other” to intervene and save, grace is decidedly secondary to you.

A Christian who knows that it is utterly impossible to save himself and, therefore, relies on God’s grace but at the same time uses divine gift of God “wisdom” to do that which pleases God.

No, you got me wrong. No Vaishnavite ever makes a plea to God to grant him salvation. I love God for love's sake only - not for earthly pleasure, heaven or becoming God. We do not expect any favor from God for this love - including salvation and eternal bliss. Whatver the Lord gives me, that is it. If I am to be born many times and singing priases of the Lord every time, every true Vaishnavite is contended with that. Salvation is considered a mere by product of this love, and never as an objective to be met.

It is all in the words. The meaning still the same. Goal still remain the Eternal salvation. No one can make plea for salvation. In fact, Christian school does not believe in salvation that is something he deserves but knows it is a gift of God.

The "supreme self" resides in the "individual self" is a basic doctrine of all Hindu schools. So, God is revealed either directly by the supreme self or the "divine inside you". These are not contradictory to Hinduism.

If divine is in man why there is evil in man?

To be frank, you have contradicted every post of yours here by sticking to dogma again. Man is divine, and how can he "reject" God? What do you mean by rejecting God? What is the proof of God, by the way?

You are far removed from reality! Refer to my very first point. Let me reiterate. Man is not divine. Man is born with sinful nature. If we are all divine then we all will be in heaven! There won’t be a need for savior like Jesus to appear and you won’t be pursuing divinity following Dharma. The evil is so pervasive and acute that there is desperate need for the savior.

Man is not evil. His apparent nature is a clash of his divine spark versus the prakriti modes that he is associated with, the three modes of ignorance, passion and goodness. When the goodness prevails, his divinity shines forth. In the mode of passion and ignorance, man has to work hard to move towards God.

Perhaps, explain what makes man to clash with divine spark? Again and again I have to tell you that man is striving to connect with divine but is not divine to begin with. The very fact that a Hindu believes in karmic debt clearly shows he is atoning himself to attain that ever elusive moksha. This would not have happened if he were divine to begin with!!!

Sure, we cant agree on all points. But I noticed that though you claimed that you are a "heretic" you are still entangled in the dogma of "Reject God or struggle in ignorance for eternity" . I think you are no heretic as you claimed.

The truth presented in Christianity reflects the reality of life we live in. That reality is: a man is not divine but God is Divine. Evil is real. Yet, God loves us and do not want us to be lost in the sea of ignorance. His divine scheme is to reconcile us to Him through the redemptive works of Christ.

Again, You did not get my subtle nudge when I said “heretic”! That’s okay lets move on!!!

Blessings,

 

[Ram]

Nirotu,

Just my comments. I do not personally agree fully with Sudarshan but yet I wanted to reply you...

Sudarshan, you are misinterpreting what Christ and Christianity stands for with your false logic. I never said man is divine. The very purpose of God Jesus coming down from heaven to save mankind shows the lack of divinity in humans. When I say God dwells in us is a metaphor to indicate He created us with His attributes, thus, He is in a way represented in us. That is nowhere near being divine.

Man is divine. His apparent lack of divinity is due to his association with world. I dont believe in your version of Jesus coming to save mankind due to lack of divinity, so it means very little for me.

My friend, evil is not an illusion that somehow results from a faulty perspective of God. It is as real and pervasive as a nose on your face. We live in this world where our sensory perception is keen to realize and experience the evil. I do not subscribe to Shankara School to dismiss evil as an illusion (Maya).

Do you have any reasons why God created evil? Delberately to lead man to doom? If I get a tumour in one part of my body, I remove it before it becomes malignant. So, if all evil was caused by Satan, a fallen angel, God should have packed him off straightaway.

My version is evil is there with a purpose - God created evil for sport. The very evil is God. That is how teases and toys with his loving children, who are part and parcel of him. Dont you tickle or tease your own children for fun? When we express displeasure and ask for his mercy, he immediately removes the evil associated with us, but he continues to play with us, until we request him to stop it.

You version of God creating evil and making responsible for his actions and punishing is ridiculous. These are acts of a dictator whose fuel of flattery is never appeased.

When a person who is willfully determined to conduct his own way in life, God will simply step aside and let it take it's course. It is the same person when realizes the difference between his actions and God’s “will”, will some day come back to God like a prodigal son. He will never be refused by God. If I willfully defy the gravity and walk over the edge of a cliff, I am bound to fall. But if I knew what God has set forth to understand His creation I probably will do well.

Exactly, if I defy the gravity I will fail, but the next time I will be careful. Your God's acts looks like an ambush played on an unsuspecting victim. God never gives proof for his existance, never reveals himself to the world, and somebody has to beleive in God base don mere guess, and if he uses his brain he is banished to the pits for eternity. What sort of God is that?

We are all given an opportunity do that which is good. Because good is all God and it pleases God. Why was Ramanuja leading a morally upright life? Because he knew that is the way to please the God. He exercised his choices correctly. Likewise we can all exercise similar choices that which pleases God. In every case, however, God will not force you to make that choice.

For your info, all Hindu saints including Shankara lived perfect lives. Why do you selectively divide Hindus here?If my children wont eat bitter medicine that saves their lives - I will force it down their throats. Does your God do that? Why does he remain silent when the penalty is eternal suffering? And you call that personality a merciful and graceful character?

If my peevish children are adamant, I might punish them and perhaps refuse to feed them one meal out of anger, or schold or spank them. But would I allow them to starve to death or kill them for disobeying me? That is what your version of God is doing.....

Both a and b represent your karmic philosophy. That is to keep doing karma and obtain salvation. Because you do not believe that there is no “other” to intervene and save, grace is decidedly secondary to you.

A Christian who knows that it is utterly impossible to save himself and, therefore, relies on God’s grace but at the same time uses divine gift of God “wisdom” to do that which pleases God.

A true Christian who places his trust his God will get enough good karma to lead him to a higher state of spiritual maturity in his birth and will stop ridiculing other saints and prophets and religions. Nothing more than that.

God had no reason to create us. Because he is described as always happy and has no desires to be fulfilled. He is self contained.

When he created us, it means he had a purpose? What is that? To create us in sin by default and allow us to suffer for eternity? That looks like the work of a saddist.

On the other hand, we think he created each one of us divine, and just for fun, he let us taste his majesty and power. When you return back to God after all this journey, you know who God is, how loving he is, how much he cares for each one of us.

Every man has a lot of suffering in the world. Many of us, including me think that on attaining salvation to request God to put an end to all this suffering and give salvation to all. But none of us who reach God ever do that? Why? Because it becomes clear that God has nothing but love for everybody that the soul that get backs to him is never able to lodge a complaint with his sport.

It is all in the words. The meaning still the same. Goal still remain the Eternal salvation. No one can make plea for salvation. In fact, Christian school does not believe in salvation that is something he deserves but knows it is a gift of God.

Yes, it is a gift that has to be earned. Hinduism says there is a need to know God while on earth to attain salvation - it is posible only thru the Bhakti Yoga which is nothing but meditation with intense love for God, without caring for anything in life. Hinduism is categorical that one needs to have a vision of God before death to attain salvation. It is no joke or gift, and I disagree with Sudarshan. I beleive in the grace of God and surender to him, but I think salvation is more than that. You need to make God appear before you by your intense love for him - no short cuts. Until you cannot do this, salvation is a pipe dream. Know God, see God and be with him.

If divine is in man why there is evil in man?

It is a way the Lord makes a man realise his true greatness...why did God create evil in the first place. We never think he created evil, but evil is something that is relative to our plane of existance and less consciousness. God sees no evil on earth or the universe.

You are far removed from reality! Refer to my very first point. Let me reiterate. Man is not divine. Man is born with sinful nature. If we are all divine then we all will be in heaven! There won’t be a need for savior like Jesus to appear and you won’t be pursuing divinity following Dharma. The evil is so pervasive and acute that there is desperate need for the savior.

Nice dogma. I dont need a saviour. I trust God and the "divine" inside me. I belong to God so I dont nee a saviour.

The truth presented in Christianity reflects the reality of life we live in. That reality is: a man is not divine but God is Divine. Evil is real. Yet, God loves us and do not want us to be lost in the sea of ignorance. His divine scheme is to reconcile us to Him through the redemptive works of Christ.

I hate your version of God, who created evil when it was within his control to prevent it. If I create robots, I would not let them suffer for my own pleasure, just because they did not say "Glory to Ram, the master of me".

If an ordinary human has compassion how about God? Each of our divine qualities show we are divine....even the worst sinner has some divine qualities.

 

[Ram]

Hi nirotu,

There is a school of thought that believes that Krishna of Mahabharata and Krishna of Gita Upadesha are different! Many Indian scholars have emphatically confirmed that it is very difficult to see Sreekrishna, the hero of history of Mahabharatha as the ethereal and saintly Sreekrishna of Gita.

See for example,

Dr. S. Radhakrishnan ( Bhagavath Gita Page 28),
Swamy Vivekananda (The complete work of Swamy Vivekananda. Vol 1, Page 438),
Mahatma Gandhi (Gita – My mother Page 38),
Vinobha Bhave ( Talk on the Gita Page 11).

All have come to the same conclusion as you read the reference. What’s your take on this?

Is the Jesus who loved mankind and the Jesus who spoke of hell the same?
There are no provisions for accepting your claim-because Krishna is the avatar of Lord Vishnu in Mahabaratha, in the Bhagavatam and in the Bhagavad Gita. There is no room for two Krishnas.

Dont quote from some modern Swamis. Please quote from some vedantins who thought so. There are none.

This is in reference to John 3:18,"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.Jesus never said that if you believe in Him you are saved or else you are condemned." (NIV)

It is misinterpreted by many to be literally so. Christ Jesus could not have said that because many before He was born were saved, who did not know Jesus.

What in fact Jesus meant was this:
John 12:47"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it.(NIV)"

He referes to man's suffering, which itself is a hell of ignorance if he did not heed to the word of Jesus. Which is clear from this passage:

John 12:46,"I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.(NIV)"

He came here to bring us that awarness by removing the veil of ignorance.



Man has a choice! You decide what it is going to be with you. I know for sure Jesus is God incarnate.


Blessings,

Whatever way you seem to nicely put it, "your viel of ignorance", I infer is nothing other than the eternal hell...

Let me put it emphatically for you.

How do you know you have obtained the grace of God? Only after death , by checking if you are in heaven or hell?

Hinduism does not preach that philosophy. By your intense loving devotion to God, grace of God acts on you. You know God's grace has befallen you when God reveals himself to you, prior to death, when you still very much alive. If you die in ignorance without the knowledge(spiritual vision) of God, you will be born again,and pick up from where you left off.

 

[selwyn]

I am paying you in the same coin. I am asking nirotu if he also suffers from changing moods. I am sure nirotu can defend his statements.

Isn't it ironical that you are trying your revenge against nirotu. And by that very statement, isn' it that you have ended up confessing here that it is all over for your so called logic that you had to atleast imitate my style of approach here (to say the least) while simoltaneously screaming at me here at the other end? And the worst part is even, in that you end up either contradicting yourself or demonstrating here that you have just raised issues of self contradictions for the sake of argument by telling that nirotu can very well defend his arguments. Man. Didn't you even realize that the moment you made that statement, that nirotu can defend his statements, you ended up exposing that what you raised as an issue against his posts may not even be self contradictions and that you are just playing around here to take revenge after all your speculations and self contradictions and partial truths have been exposed out here?

I never claimed to a kettle or a pot. You seemed to pretend that you always made coherent claims and Christianity had no contradictions and did not provide a single line of defence to any question asked by me or any other Hindu - just ran away by saying "I prefer not to answer you" and now suddenly junping into the water. You will get drowned if you continue this way, well you already have.

The moment you accepted that you are just speculating things around here and that hindu scriptures are incoherent and so on, you ended up destroying all your so called logical arguments and all those are nothing better than dead snakes now up here. That being the case in your situation, it is funny that you are screaming here that I will get drowned.

Selwyn, I dont see your point and logic - you are never for a discussion and it is better for u to be a spectator.

Is logic coherent or incoherent, according to you? Oh man. I hope you would ease out here, think and then write out here.

 

[nirotu]

Just my comments. I do not personally agree fully with Sudarshan but yet I wanted to reply you...

Man is divine. His apparent lack of divinity is due to his association with world. I dont believe in your version of Jesus coming to save mankind due to lack of divinity, so it means very little for me.

Dear Ram:


From your questionnaire I gather that you are trying to establish somehow the so called “Bible God” by nature is a source of both good and evil and makes Himself known from either of powers.

There are several ways one can prove that the Bible does not indicate that the God of this universe is creator of evil. The best example I will start with is from St.Augustine.

To me, St. Augustine’s reasoning seems to be correct:

1. God is the author of everything in the created universe.

2. Evil is not a thing or a substance; it is a privation or lack in things (blindness is lack of sight, pain is lack of health, hate or murder is lack of love).

3. Therefore God did not create evil.

I would love to answer all your questions as they are of legitimate concern to you. But before I do, please read this little story someone sent to me to illustrate the above point.

Does evil exist? Did God create evil?

The university professor challenged his students with this question, "Did God create everything that exists?" A student bravely replied, "Yes, He did!"
"God created everything?" the professor asked. "Yes sir", the student replied. The professor answered, "If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are, then God is evil."

The student became quiet before such an answer. The professor, quite pleased with himself, boasted to the students that he had proven once more that the Christian faith was a myth. Another student raised his hand and said, "Can I ask you a question
professor?" "Of course", replied the professor.

The student stood up and asked, "Professor does cold exist?" "What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?" The students snickered at the young man's question.

The young man replied,"In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-460F) is the total absence of heat; all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have no heat."

The student continued, "Professor, does darkness exist?" The
professor responded, "Of course it does." The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."

Finally the young man asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?" Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course as I have already said. We see it everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.

To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

The professor sat down.

The young man's name -- Albert Einstein

 

[nirotu]

Man is divine. His apparent lack of divinity is due to his association with world. I dont believe in your version of Jesus coming to save mankind due to lack of divinity, so it means very little for me.

Thanks, Ram for these points. I had to dig up my old communications that I used in another forum. While you may not agree with me, nevertheless what I am sharing with you is from my understanding of the word of God – Bible.

From a Christian view point, you are on wrong footing. I lost you already when you started with these premises: Man is divine, God is evil and more. We can be a little more pragmatic and at the same time realistic. We live in this world where we have no choice but to go through “Sansara” that is unless you want to be a monk or sadhu. Undoubtedly, you have to deal with the worldly matters. From your definition, the motion of going through the rigors of “Sansara” makes us not divine. Therefore, from your definition of “man is divine” probably fits to handful of ascetic, monks and sages. Therefore, the theory is not practical and falls on its face.

The Bible say the following: Can man become divine? No. Can man aspire to become divine? Nope. What is the purpose man then? The very purpose of God’s creation of man is to have that intimate Father-Son relationship and in that have a communion with God. There is nothing more that makes God happy than to see His children worship Him.

Do you have any reasons why God created evil? Delberately to lead man to doom? If I get a tumour in one part of my body, I remove it before it becomes malignant. So, if all evil was caused by Satan, a fallen angel, God should have packed him off straightaway.

Again, the Bible does not say God created evil. You see, Hinduism as well as Christianity sees the person as a moral being responsible to the surrounding moral order. But beneath this surface similarity lies an unbridgeable gulf between God’s self revelation in the Bible and the teachings of the Indian mystics. Most serious are in the nature of evil, problem of evil, redemption and salvation.

The problem I have is how to describe the problem of evil to a Dvaitan, advaitan or to VA. For example, when you read Adi Sankara, where he describes Moha, Maya in relation to evil and material world. The problem, as I see, with Hinduism lies in its conceptions of God and the world coming from different subsets. If knowledge of the world is characterized by illusion, it is hard to see how any standard can prove illusion is false (Hackett pp 158-175). At least for some Hindu’s even the highest truth is in the last analysis part of the “maya” or “cosmic illusion”. While claiming allegiance to universal moral order, the Hindu view of maya ultimately undermines the reality of such an order or, at least, the possibility of knowing anything about it.


Is God a source of evil?

As Christian theists, we believe that greatest good in all of reality is God. The God of the Bible has revealed in creation that this world, with all humans capable of accepting or rejecting His love, is not the best world, but is the best way to the best possible world – heaven. There is no way to create a world where people are free to love God in order to experience the greatest good but are not free to reject God’s love – the greatest evil. Therefore, God created freedom as good thing, yet evil can arise from that good thing. Therefore, God is not the direct author of evil; He created the potential for evil when He created free humans, which also made it possible for them to experience His love – N.Geisler.

Exactly, if I defy the gravity I will fail, but the next time I will be careful.

There is no next time! If you fall you fail. Why do you consider the next time as any better opportunity to correct yourself when you never was able the first time. That shows laziness in you thinking the next time around you will be good! That cannot be since Bible does not allow reincarnation myth. It only postpones your suffering to an unending cycle.

For your info, all Hindu saints including Shankara lived perfect lives. Why do you selectively divide Hindus here?

I chose Ramanuja unintentionally to make a point. I did not mean to undermine the power of Shankara or any other saints.

A true Christian who places his trust his God will get enough good karma to lead him to a higher state of spiritual maturity in his birth and will stop ridiculing other saints and prophets and religions. Nothing more than that.

I have great difficulty in understanding Karma/reincarnation. I do not ridicule anyone who is a sincere seeker.

When he created us, it means he had a purpose? What is that? To create us in sin by default and allow us to suffer for eternity? That looks like the work of a saddist.

First of all, we should not assume that all our suffering is the product of our own sin or indifference to the Lord. There are many reasons for suffering. Also, the notion that God somehow randomly chooses one to suffer and the other to enjoy is not correct. God loves us all with same measure. Yet why do we see different measures of pain and suffering caused to different people. We all go through life’s struggle. Some handle it well some give up easily.

A Christian theist knows that God created people with freedom to choose or reject Him. When this creation chose to rebel, God revealed His plan of salvation. I can see the God was achieving greater good through this process of allowing Evil to occur.

I hate your version of God, who created evil when it was within his control to prevent it. If I create robots, I would not let them suffer for my own pleasure, just because they did not say "Glory to Ram, the master of me".

If an ordinary human has compassion how about God? Each of our divine qualities show we are divine....even the worst sinner has some divine qualities.

A person who talks about compassion and in the same breath passionately hates version of God presented in Christianity is difficult for anyone to fathom.

God’s love can be given only if the opposite choice is really available: hate. Just remember that either choice you make will have consequences here and in eternity. God's attributes includes His Holiness and the appropriate action for evil in His sight is its destruction. One must also remember that God is a Sovereign God, not limited by human ideas of goodness, kindness etc. Many think of God as a kind, bumbling, Santa Claus-like father figure, but forget that He is also a just God, and justice requires punishment of sin.

Blessings,

 

[MahaSudarshanChakra]

Isn't it ironical that you are trying your revenge against nirotu. And by that very statement, isn' it that you have ended up confessing here that it is all over for your so called logic that you had to atleast imitate my style of approach here (to say the least) while simoltaneously screaming at me here at the other end? And the worst part is even, in that you end up either contradicting yourself or demonstrating here that you have just raised issues of self contradictions for the sake of argument by telling that nirotu can very well defend his arguments. Man. Didn't you even realize that the moment you made that statement, that nirotu can defend his statements, you ended up exposing that what you raised as an issue against his posts may not even be self contradictions and that you are just playing around here to take revenge after all your speculations and self contradictions and partial truths have been exposed out here?



The moment you accepted that you are just speculating things around here and that hindu scriptures are incoherent and so on, you ended up destroying all your so called logical arguments and all those are nothing better than dead snakes now up here. That being the case in your situation, it is funny that you are screaming here that I will get drowned.



Is logic coherent or incoherent, according to you? Oh man. I hope you would ease out here, think and then write out here.

Revenge? You got to be kidding...

One way of scoring a discussion is to find an inconsistancy in your rival's arguments. That has been your approach so far, and your only approach, because dont know anything else. But when the same thing is asked of you, your computer goes down for a week.

Most Hindus over here, including me, are never for anything to belittle anybody. I myself came here to learn more about Christianity(in particular christians) thru my christian friend in Africa - and I learnt enough from guys like you, Nick, Karma and arunma, and differently from other people like Monica and Casi. People like you have confirmed my worst fears that a good number of christians in India are a frustrated lot and whose sole aim is to debunk Hinduism and Hindus without knowing a whit about it. After seeing a lot of this kind of trash from guys like you, I am spending a part of my time on Hindunet speaking against people like you - which I have never done in the past. Because I have been blind to the realities. Most Hindus are...they think all that is white is milk, because of the Hindu teaching.

I had been discussing with the sole aim of trying to find out if your frustarations warranted a cause or was just an inborn hatred born out of pastor brainwashing. And since you have displayed very superficial knowledge of Hinduism in any of your post, nor have even expressed even a desire of knowing better, I conclude it is the latter. You have been simply brainwashed into ridiculing others and under the false assumption that "this good karma will give you salvation".


I do not believe in discussions or debates or "soul saving" efforts. Our school has a philosophy based entirely on love and the grace of God and it has no place in it for thinking bad of anything that is good. I see things objectively, and never based on my personal prejudices. I have great respect for Christianity and many christians who understand it correctly. And I do not care much for guys like you or arunma, who are beyond logic, with a faulty understanding and out to trash others in the name of preaching and "soul saving". That was not the teaching of Jesus, from what I understand. The essential teaching of Jesus was love and forgiveness to all. It has been replaced with "hell, damnation and trash others" by people like you. What a shame. With more people like this, Christianity will disappear- good luck.


By drowning, I meant your drowning in the samsara , in its deadly traps of hatred and contempt, which you have in sufficient measure. Good luck in your next birth...maybe with some good karma now you will be born as Vaishnavite and chant the holy names of Lord Krishna.

 

[MahaSudarshanChakra]

Dear Nirotu,

Sudarshan, you are misinterpreting what Christ and Christianity stands for with your false logic. I never said man is divine. The very purpose of God Jesus coming down from heaven to save mankind shows the lack of divinity in humans. When I say God dwells in us is a metaphor to indicate He created us with His attributes, thus, He is in a way represented in us. That is nowhere near being divine.

Sorry, that has nothing to do with the my beleif. God alone existed in the beginning and anything should have originated from God, including matter and soul - all have divine source. The source of creation was God and since only God existed in the beginning, eternally long ago, God has only himself to use for material causalty. There is only one fundamental principle of the universe - God, and nothing else exists really apart from him.

To beleive that evil, man, soul. matter are different from God - I might choose to beleive in atheism which says "something came out of essentially nothing".

My friend, evil is not an illusion that somehow results from a faulty perspective of God. It is as real and pervasive as a nose on your face. We live in this world where our sensory perception is keen to realize and experience the evil. I do not subscribe to Shankara School to dismiss evil as an illusion (Maya).

True, evil is real for man. But not for God. God knows neither good, nor evil. Nor do I call them illusion, but they are valid only to the perciever.

When a person who is willfully determined to conduct his own way in life, God will simply step aside and let it take it's course. It is the same person when realizes the difference between his actions and God’s “will”, will some day come back to God like a prodigal son. He will never be refused by God. If I willfully defy the gravity and walk over the edge of a cliff, I am bound to fall. But if I knew what God has set forth to understand His creation I probably will do well.

True, but you know where you lack - you assumed there is only once chance to do this. God never refuses anybody because all of us belong to him. There are no "dark" zones.

We are all given an opportunity do that which is good. Because good is all God and it pleases God. Why was Ramanuja leading a morally upright life? Because he knew that is the way to please the God. He exercised his choices correctly. Likewise we can all exercise similar choices that which pleases God. In every case, however, God will not force you to make that choice.

I am amused when you talk of Ramanuja. You seem to be accepting that Ramanuja found his way to God but his teachings are not valid? Is this a way missionaires confuse the elite Hindus nowadays?

Man, If you accept Ramanuja as a saint, his words stand. There was no Paul who misrepresented Ramanuja, his teachings are there to be followed readily.

Both a and b represent your karmic philosophy. That is to keep doing karma and obtain salvation. Because you do not believe that there is no “other” to intervene and save, grace is decidedly secondary to you.

A Christian who knows that it is utterly impossible to save himself and, therefore, relies on God’s grace but at the same time uses divine gift of God “wisdom” to do that which pleases God.


It is all in the words. The meaning still the same. Goal still remain the Eternal salvation. No one can make plea for salvation. In fact, Christian school does not believe in salvation that is something he deserves but knows it is a gift of God.

I think you have not understood my message yet.

What do you think I mean when I accept the Lord as my saviour - it is simply not something in word. It is something that needs to be done in deed and proved. How does the Lord know that you have truly surendered to him? From just some dumb words that come from your mouth - "You are my saviour"?

By surrendering to God, I am making the claim that I desire nothing in life but God. Nothing short of this will give salavtion - note clearly nothing short of it. If I still desire material things, or wish fame, money or something else - that is not considered a complete surrrender to the Lord.

Once you make this decision once earnestly, there is no longer blind treading. Our tradition says that the Lord reveals himself in his majestic form ( like Krishna to Arjuna) to prove that I have become an object of his grace. As long as this does not happen, you can be sure you dont deserve the grace of God, neither salvation.

Bhakti Yoga or the path of unpollution devotion is the teaching of Hinduism. Man needs to be devoted to God, to such an extent that he hears and sees nothing else. This results in a temporary vision of God, called by the terminology Para Bhakti. Para Bhakti gives you interrupted and intermitten God experiences that make you more and more attracted to God.

Once a person has a glimpse of God even once, he longs for it more and more, and this works like a catalyst in his devotional process and process of surender that he finds any life without God a total waste. This state of renunctiation is what that leads to the full and permanent realization of God called the Para Jnana.

Para Jnana leads to a state of ecstasy where the Lord is perceived all the time, and this is called the Parama Bhakti. Parama Bhakti alone can lead to salvation, and the surrendering to the Lord in the beginning is only the first step that leads to Parama Bhakti.

As others have mentioned here, note that only a person who obtains a permanent vision of the Lord will get salvation - that is the teaching of Hinduism. If you die in ignorance of God, you will return back. Do you think it is adultrated teaching or inferior to belieiving in a saviour?

The whole emphasis of Hindu teaching is to love God, love him so much that he is revealed to you directly. People like you are confusing it with good karma and Karma theory. Karma never leads to salvation - only love for God that materializes in a vision of God leads to salvation. Since a vast majority of us do no accomplish this, it needs many incarnations to acheive this, more love for God each successive time until God is revealed in all glory.



I would suggest you to understand the principles of Karma Theory, the theory of Bhakti Yoga and the role of God's grace in salvation properly before making some ridiculous statements about Hinduism here.

Foremost, stop worry about the Karma Theory. Good karmas never lead to salvation - only unpolluted love for God does - the only proof of your love being unpolluted is obtaining a vision of the Lord. If you dont have that, your love is polluted and you need to wait for further improvement. Most of us need improvement because God is seen only in the book.

 

[selwyn]

Revenge? You got to be kidding...

Then what on earth did you mean by "I am paying you in the same coin." ?Man.

One way of scoring a discussion is to find an inconsistancy in your rival's arguments. That has been your approach so far, and your only approach,

Man. And is your only approach so far in here has been just to self contradict yourself? And is that the only thing that you had known so far? And are you admitting in here that you have learnt a new approach from me after all your hypocritical claims about your superiority in debating in here?

because dont know anything else.

Man. You know what? One of the main problems that you seem to be facing in here is that you seem to assume things about others, christianity etc. in here and somehow seem to declare that out aloud here as truth confidently only to prove yourself wrong later with your own posts. Would you stop belittling people in here?

But when the same thing is asked of you

Man. I asked you if you wanted a coherent answer or an incoherent answer and why to which you have no reply so far. And isn't it that within this context as I have explained often, that I have told you that I choose not to answer you in here? Now that you are trapped severely on the wrong foot of your own assertions which were nothing but speculations, "partial truths" and hypocricies, you have started attempting in here to immitate your version of so called "my approach" (which again demonstrates your own nasty misunderstanding) to trap others like nirotu. But little did you realize that the moment you admitted that it is okay for hinduism to be incoherent, accept partial truths and speculate about issues even regarding your so called "God" to the point that you guys can even reject your own hinduic scriptures, all your so called logical arguments, debates and defenses became nothing better than dead snakes (Hope you know that famous tamil proverb) killed by your own self-contradictory claims in here.

your computer goes down for a week.

Man. Is it because that you had been speculating and claiming even lies as truth in here deliberately in the name of "partial truths" and speculations, that you have started thinking that everyone in here is lying around? Whether you want to believe it or not. My computer was infact down for a week.

Most Hindus over here, including me, are never for anything to belittle anybody.

Man. Your posts out here don't reflect anything like that.

I myself came here to learn more about Christianity(in particular christians) thru my christian friend in Africa - and I learnt enough from guys like you, Nick, Karma and arunma, and differently from other people like Monica and Casi. People like you have confirmed my worst fears that a good number of christians in India are a frustrated lot and whose sole aim is to debunk Hinduism and Hindus without knowing a whit about it. After seeing a lot of this kind of trash from guys like you, I am spending a part of my time on Hindunet speaking against people like you - which I have never done in the past. Because I have been blind to the realities. Most Hindus are...they think all that is white is milk, because of the Hindu teaching.

After all the blaming of hatred and intolerance against Christians, isn't it ironical that you openly admit in here that you are spreading hatred against people in hindunet? Man. It is your life. Do whatever you want with it.

I had been discussing with the sole aim of trying to find out if your frustarations warranted a cause or was just an inborn hatred born out of pastor brainwashing. And since you have displayed very superficial knowledge of Hinduism in any of your post, nor have even expressed even a desire of knowing better, I conclude it is the latter. You have been simply brainwashed into ridiculing others and under the false assumption that "this good karma will give you salvation".

One has to wonder in here, how much one can learn about people in here through an internet discussion that they start hating people in here vehemently.

I do not believe in discussions or debates or "soul saving" efforts. Our school has a philosophy based entirely on love and the grace of God and it has no place in it for thinking bad of anything that is good.

And what an incoherent hypocritical statement that is after all the hatred and bitterness you have spewed against people in here!!!!!!!!

I see things objectively, and never based on my personal prejudices.

No. Your posts don't display anything objective and just demonstrate your own personal prejudices.

I have great respect for Christianity and many christians who understand it correctly.

What on earth do you know about Christianity to begin with?

And I do not care much for guys like you or arunma, who are beyond logic, with a faulty understanding and out to trash others in the name of preaching and "soul saving". That was not the teaching of Jesus, from what I understand. The essential teaching of Jesus was love and forgiveness to all. It has been replaced with "hell, damnation and trash others" by people like you. What a shame. With more people like this, Christianity will disappear- good luck.

Man. Cool down. Again, when you don't know Christ or the gospel, why are you trying to assume things in here and hypocritically assert in here to the extent of even preaching it to us? Aren't you the one who claimed that you don't even believe in the historicity of Jesus? Isn't it utterly hypocritical and meaningless on your part now to talk about the teaching of Jesus to Christians in here? Why are you getting so desperate in here?

By drowning, I meant your drowning in the samsara , in its deadly traps of hatred and contempt, which you have in sufficient measure. Good luck in your next birth...maybe with some good karma now you will be born as Vaishnavite and chant the holy names of Lord Krishna.

You seem to be highly confused, currently. After all in this post, aren't you the one who has openly admitted that you have started a new campaign of hatred against Christians "like me" in your hindu forums? Watch out. It may be that you have already sunk deeply without way of escape in hatred and contempt that you are not able to see others in here who have no hatred to you at all!!!

Hopefully you will cool down. Let me just assure you that I have nothing against you or any other hindu in here. And whether you want to believe it or not, even in a foreign land where I am currently staying, I have many dear hindu freinds around me. And let me just tell you in here that we must not forget that in any discussion regarding God and religion, the exchange can sometimes get really intense as it involves strong opinions for or against what individuals had believed with their whole being from their very childhood to be true. But atleast, at my end I, as a Christian have determined very firmly in my heart that I am not going to hate or hold bitterness against anyone in here just because I strongly question and vehemently disagree with their opinions in here. Hope that helps.

 

[indianx]

I am spending a part of my time on Hindunet speaking against people like you

isn't it ironical that you openly admit in here that you are spreading hatred against people in hindunet?

Umm.. am I the only one who sees that Sudharshan never said anything about "spreading hatred against people in hindunet" and never mentions the word hatred nor spreading, just uses the word speaking.

 

[coolbodhi]

Hello Nirotu,

Yes and no. I read that part of Gita in which Krishna is glorified as divine (Chapter 16). The rest is just an epic written by Vyasa to bring about wisdom and understanding of God. Those exact sayings can also be found in the Bible. However, I would be interested in your opinion on this.

My opinion is that Hindus believe that Gita is divinely inspired. Compared to bible which is based on the Old Testament and has human intervention i.e. scriptures have been added and removed; I feel that Gita is more reliable than the bible today. Just my opinion since you asked.

But then again, Galilei said that the scripture “Liber Mundi”, the laws of nature conceived as God’s own handwriting on the paper of matter was more reliable than ‘bible’ because it could not be tampered with and it was always available right here for everyone to investigate.

There is a school of thought that believes that Krishna of Mahabharata and Krishna of Gita Upadesha are different! Many Indian scholars have emphatically confirmed that it is very difficult to see Sreekrishna, the hero of history of Mahabharatha as the ethereal and saintly Sreekrishna of Gita.

Really? Perhaps this school is somewhat like the anti-church or anti-christ schools of today with their own interpretations of the bible. Some schools think that Jesus is all loving yet others interpret verses of the bible to make him look like a messenger for Hell.

See for example,

Dr. S. Radhakrishnan ( Bhagavath Gita Page 28),
Swamy Vivekananda (The complete work of Swamy Vivekananda. Vol 1, Page 438),
Mahatma Gandhi (Gita – My mother Page 38),
Vinobha Bhave ( Talk on the Gita Page 11).

All have come to the same conclusion as you read the reference. What’s your take on this?

I have not read anything written by these scholars. A question: Are these religious scholars?

From something that I have read about Gandhi; he was actually more of anti-Hinduism. Is this correct or was he a religious scholar? What is your opinion of Parbhupada who is considered a religious scholar?

There are also scholars like Nitzsche that thought that the historical Christ was a very different man from the Christ of Christian mythology. What is your opinion of this?

This is in reference to John 3:18,"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.Jesus never said that if you believe in Him you are saved or else you are condemned." (NIV)

It is misinterpreted by many to be literally so. Christ Jesus could not have said that because many before He was born were saved, who did not know Jesus.

What in fact Jesus meant was this:
John 12:47"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it.(NIV)"

He referes to man's suffering, which itself is a hell of ignorance if he did not heed to the word of Jesus. Which is clear from this passage:

John 12:46,"I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.(NIV)"

He came here to bring us that awarness by removing the veil of ignorance.

Thanks for your interpretation and elaboration. What do you mean by ‘removing the veil of ignorance’?

Man has a choice! You decide what it is going to be with you. I know for sure Jesus is God incarnate.

If man really has a choice then I choose to surrender to GOD as jesus is just another label to me.

 

[coolbodhi]

Dear Ram:


From your questionnaire I gather that you are trying to establish somehow the so called “Bible God” by nature is a source of both good and evil and makes Himself known from either of powers.

There are several ways one can prove that the Bible does not indicate that the God of this universe is creator of evil. The best example I will start with is from St.Augustine.

To me, St. Augustine’s reasoning seems to be correct:

1. God is the author of everything in the created universe.

2. Evil is not a thing or a substance; it is a privation or lack in things (blindness is lack of sight, pain is lack of health, hate or murder is lack of love).

3. Therefore God did not create evil.

Hello nirotu,

That's good that you believe in St. Augustine's reasoning. Augustine also believed the canon of Scripture to contain the Greek OT canon also known today as the deuterocanonicals or "Apocrypha".

What is your opinion of St. Augustine in this matter?

I assume that you are catholic and believe in the deuterocanonicals. Do you?

 

[Theowne]

I really think you guys should just start ignoring selwyn....

 

[MahaSudarshanChakra]

Then what on earth did you mean by "I am paying you in the same coin." ?Man.

How old are you?

Man. And is your only approach so far in here has been just to self contradict yourself? And is that the only thing that you had known so far? And are you admitting in here that you have learnt a new approach from me after all your hypocritical claims about your superiority in debating in here?

True, I learnt this art from you. I used to always see positives in everything, after your contact, all negatives are visible to me now.

Man. You know what? One of the main problems that you seem to be facing in here is that you seem to assume things about others, christianity etc. in here and somehow seem to declare that out aloud here as truth confidently only to prove yourself wrong later with your own posts. Would you stop belittling people in here?



Man. I asked you if you wanted a coherent answer or an incoherent answer and why to which you have no reply so far. And isn't it that within this context as I have explained often, that I have told you that I choose not to answer you in here? Now that you are trapped severely on the wrong foot of your own assertions which were nothing but speculations, "partial truths" and hypocricies, you have started attempting in here to immitate your version of so called "my approach" (which again demonstrates your own nasty misunderstanding) to trap others like nirotu. But little did you realize that the moment you admitted that it is okay for hinduism to be incoherent, accept partial truths and speculate about issues even regarding your so called "God" to the point that you guys can even reject your own hinduic scriptures, all your so called logical arguments, debates and defenses became nothing better than dead snakes (Hope you know that famous tamil proverb) killed by your own self-contradictory claims in here.




Man. Is it because that you had been speculating and claiming even lies as truth in here deliberately in the name of "partial truths" and speculations, that you have started thinking that everyone in here is lying around? Whether you want to believe it or not. My computer was infact down for a week.

Clear proof that you just avoid the issue....

Man. Your posts out here don't reflect anything like that.

For your info, I have recieved many PMs commending my posts even by your fellow christians, so your comment hardly matters to me. I am not seen as a Christian hater even by many of your friends here. I am a Christian if you may to call me that, and certainly have beleifs that fit some of the christain denominations. I simply disagree with your dogmatic presentation of Christianity. And disagree with your unwarranted ridicule of Hindusim without knwoing a bit about it.

After all the blaming of hatred and intolerance against Christians, isn't it ironical that you openly admit in here that you are spreading hatred against people in hindunet? Man. It is your life. Do whatever you want with it.

Not, hatred, but the truth. I want to expose people are against Hinduism without a good cause. If you were a scholar in Hinduism and were speaking against it I would have give you a good hearing.

Is speaking aginst Islamic terrorism hatred? Is speaking against quran's discrimination against other humans a hatred? Is speaking against christain mssionaires using deciet hatred? Is speaking against people like you who call "All Hindus on this forum as liars" hatred? ( I am assuming that Pam's accusation was against you and I will leave her to confirm that...because I could not guess anybody else could have said that after reading all your posts).

I can give a good account of many christians on this forum as great human beings. Are you able to see that in a single Hindu here? Is that a different perception on oursides?

Can you pick one Hindu from among the many Hindus on this forum whom you would call "not a liar"? I know you cannot - there is nobody you have ever agreed with, on a single point unless they throw the towel and agree with your version of Christianity.

1. The beleif in a dictator God,
2. The beleif in an eternal hell for non christians.
3. The beleif in an unmerited grace ( an oxymoron which you have not cared to defend)

and such nonsense.


Jesus was a great saint. You have not understood him even 1%. Ask your buddy nirotu here. Even he has a much better perspective - you can learn a lot from him, though I dont agree with him on all points. Did you not see that I an nirotu were able to agree on a majority of issues? Is it ever possible with you to agree on even on point? Is that your problem or mine?

One has to wonder in here, how much one can learn about people in here through an internet discussion that they start hating people in here vehemently.




And what an incoherent hypocritical statement that is after all the hatred and bitterness you have spewed against people in here!!!!!!!!




No. Your posts don't display anything objective and just demonstrate your own personal prejudices.

Hmm, ask these questions to youself honestly.

What on earth do you know about Christianity to begin with?

No big deal knowing about a 600 page book. Nirotu expalined certain points very beautifully and you may may to reread this thread if your eyes are still open.

Man. Cool down. Again, when you don't know Christ or the gospel, why are you trying to assume things in here and hypocritically assert in here to the extent of even preaching it to us? Aren't you the one who claimed that you don't even believe in the historicity of Jesus? Isn't it utterly hypocritical and meaningless on your part now to talk about the teaching of Jesus to Christians in here? Why are you getting so desperate in here?




You seem to be highly confused, currently. After all in this post, aren't you the one who has openly admitted that you have started a new campaign of hatred against Christians "like me" in your hindu forums? Watch out. It may be that you have already sunk deeply without way of escape in hatred and contempt that you are not able to see others in here who have no hatred to you at all!!!

Hopefully you will cool down. Let me just assure you that I have nothing against you or any other hindu in here. And whether you want to believe it or not, even in a foreign land where I am currently staying, I have many dear hindu freinds around me. And let me just tell you in here that we must not forget that in any discussion regarding God and religion, the exchange can sometimes get really intense as it involves strong opinions for or against what individuals had believed with their whole being from their very childhood to be true. But atleast, at my end I, as a Christian have determined very firmly in my heart that I am not going to hate or hold bitterness against anyone in here just because I strongly question and vehemently disagree with their opinions in here. Hope that helps.

Thanks, hope I have communicated the true gospel to you. The true message of Jesus. It has nothing to do with the kind of posts you and some of your buddies make here. Ask many of your Christian buddies here and they will be enlighten you better, it need not be a Hindu like me.

 

[MahaSudarshanChakra]

I really think you guys should just start ignoring selwyn....

We guys have started ignoring, but he does not want to ignore us,,,so this breaks out from time to time.

 

[nirotu]

Dear Sudarshan:

I am amused when you talk of Ramanuja. You seem to be accepting that Ramanuja found his way to God but his teachings are not valid?

Perhaps I should clarify misunderstandings. The reason I use messages of saints and prophets is to make my point in the discussion. The reason I use Ramanuja is that you seem to understand where I come from better. In many cases, in the context of discussion like this, one about the unmanifest and its creation, we are bound by the limitations of language, which sometimes forces us to rely on metaphors and allegories.

Having said that, the use of these tools should not deter person's own core belief that he has and in my case it is in Christ Jesus. While many aggregates can be formed out of atom, the fundamental nature is still the atom, as in my case, my belief.

While I agree with many aspects of Ramanuja’s message, I do not agree with his “complete surrender and do nothing” philosophy.

For example, aren’t you the one who said (one of your posts),

“From the point of complete surrender to the point of death, you should surrender in all respects - as Srivaishnavites, our way of complete surrender is completely unique to all religions.After making the surrender, which we call as prapatti, we live only to the will of the Lord.



1. If we get sick, we never see a doctor, even if it means death.



2. I do not defend myself in lawsuits or any problems in life. If I am framed and punished for an offence I did not commit, I will not even hire a lawyer and defend the case. Just look to the Lord.



3. Srivaishnavites get virtually detached from the world and each moment in their lives is spent in the contemplation of the Lord.



4. Accept any good or bad things with equality.”

Adherents of Ramanuja may believe in that but to me having just faith that does not produce good works is meaningless. Again, I am posing this as my personal view without undermining whatever reasons you may have.

The reason I say that because I consider human creation as the apex of God’s fabulous handiwork. He bestowed upon us many of His attributes that is far superior to any other creatures that He created. One of them is the intellect. It is through intellect we are being able to rationalize our thoughts. It is through intellect we are able to grasp the subtle nature of God. It is through intellect we are able to develop ideas, inventions that make man’s life less stressful and more fruitful. It would only make our Heavenly Father happy to see that this intellect is used to create greater good amongst ourselves.

Therefore, to me, it is perfectly rational to see a doctor when I get sick or take proper precaution not to get sick. It is rational for me to fight for my basic rights including moral rights. By not doing anything, as you indicated you would, will only demean the God given intellect in you.

If I work by faith in a room full of TB patients, I am bound to acquire that disease myself. On the other hand, if I take precaution I may very well avoid it. You can only imagine how life would be if there was no IT technology as you see it today and are communicating your responses through traditional print mail. But now you are able to appreciate God’s gift even more because you have used intellect to advance in your own progress.

Blessings,