Response from nirotu

[selwyn]

OK Selwyn, so you still are in the hiding - see you there.

Everyone knows where you are now. One sentence made it clear - I choose not to answer you. Have you answered the questions of any other Hindus? None. You have not found one contradiction yet as you claim because my own views are consistant- prove me otherwise. You cant do that - so you take words out of context and your usual deciet.

Oh man. You have swallowed most of what I had written there along with that sentence which gives the context there . Isn't it or not? And isn't this an example of taking things out of context? But at this point may I just point out that I have infact given lengthy description of why I believe Christianity to be correct in a detailed manner in some of my very early posts in the forum? Probably, you did not get a chance to read them. So again, that will clearly indicate that I do give answers to people whom I choose to over here seriously considering what they write on their posts and seeing their state of mind if there is a common ground to begin any answering. But in your case and the case of most hindus in here, isn't it that we have not even found any common ground to start with any answers in here. I just hope that at some point, you guys will be more consistent in your claims. When that happens, you will see answers from me to hindus. And don't you realize that this is the main reason that I expect some consistency from you guys to begin with in here. But you guys often end up saying something as false and later the same thing as true and further later the same thing as partially true and later what not. Where on earth can one start anything in here?

Then what are you doing on NCR, just showing minority frustrations?

Don't worry. There will be more questions in here. But that does not mean that you have to respond to them. Isn't this the place to ask questions about other religions? Right or wrong or is it partially right?

That is the last I will have with you. I want to discuss/debate withe people who are honest, not people who run away or choose not to answer questions, infact none of them.

Man. If you don't want to continue, that is fine. But I just hope that you don't take anything personally against you in here or that I am personally against anyone in here. With all honesty, I can clearly say that is not the case whether you want to believe it or not. Most of my posts are just discussions regarding issues about hinduism and I have nothing against any of you guys in here. I can just say that all you guys will be in my prayers whether you want to believe that or not. But ofcourse, if I see any contradictory claim in here, there will be definitely more questions. Not that you guys have to answer them anyway.

Regarding your defence of the bible, you have defended it by no answering questions - I asked you which interpretation is correct and you met it with silence. That shows it is full of contradictions.

Man. How could you conclude about issues so easily? But where did I even start defending the bible with you or any other hindu in here to begin with? Even to start any defence, we need to get into a common platform to begin with. At one point you guys say that scriptures can be disregarded and at another point you guys want scriptural evidence. That being the case, where can one start here? Don't you realize the bigger problem of incoherence and self-contradictions in here?

Anyway, if you just don't want to respond anymore, let us just agree to disagree. But you can always hope to see more questions from my side in here regardless of anyone in here to respond or not.

Please note: In the midst of the discussion, I missed this. I am happy to note that you do know tamil in here. My mother tongue is infact tamil although I am not in India currently. Anyway, even if we both disagree each other vehemently, it is nice meeting you in here.

 

[nirotu]

Namaste Nirotu,

I think you are mixing up "tolerance" with "respect". But then again I don't expect a Maleccha to be able to understand these two words since you guys paint or want to paint everyone with one brush and one color.

Happy conversing with "like minded" emotionally addicted people.

A note about the hindunet mods. Warnings have been issued time and again but hindus as well as Malecchas don't listen so this is why the mod there deleted posts left right and center.

Dear Satay:

You seem to defend Hindu-net so well, perhaps I need to ask you this.

I will accept the premise under which I was ousted. Heck, I will even accept that I was a “bad boy and a boat rocker” in Hindu net. Perhaps, you care to explain me one thing!



I do understand that if the discussions are way off-course they (Mods) have every right to delete all irrelevant posts. Agreed! Why someone who was honestly seeking truth (Pretty-Pam) was barred without any warning to her? Was it just because she was conversing with me? Were they trying to protect her from me?



I hope you will come up with a reasonable answer!

Blessings,

 

[satay]

Why someone who was honestly seeking truth (Pretty-Pam) was barred without any warning to her? Was it just because she was conversing with me? Were they trying to protect her from me?



I hope you will come up with a reasonable answer!

Blessings,

Dear Nirotu, Namaste!

Yes, you are right...we hindus are scared of you guys this is why.



No, seriously, are you alright?

satay

 

[satay]

I hope you will come up with a reasonable answer!

Blessings,

I let our mod speak for himself who by the way is an ex-christian but writes beautifully. I post this here without his authorization I will ask for his forgiveness later...

"Moderator Note:

This is the second time the same thread has contained problems. Please note that this is a Hindu website designed for primarily Hindu discussion. We allow differing opinions so long as they are free from abuse. While people from other faiths can also share their views, preaching and converting on these forums are not allowed. This is a HINDU discussion board and when Christians, Muslims, or others go beyond simply having a healthy discussion to attacking Hinduism and telling members here to accept Christ (or anything else from whatever they are preaching), the inappropriate posts are removed and the user is banned. Sometimes I give the person a warning and sometimes they don't get a warning depending on the seriousness of the problem.

Users are required to agree to a set of rules before even posting and they know better not to preach their religions and attack ours so when they choose to do it anyway, they are removed from Hindu Universe. I have made dozens of notices on this board to NOT RESPOND to inappropriate posts but instead to ignore them and report them to me. There is a very obvious reason to this. This "three page" thread that was deleted by me had almost all of its posts made in one single day. In fact, virtually the entire day's worth of posts were in that thread. Users who would normally post positive Hindu content in other threads become entagled in fighting nonsense and creating more of it. If for instance, it took a week for a moderator to notice, a few posts can turn into a few hundred posts and I've seen it happen in the past. Inappropriate behavior acts as a sponge that drains the environment of all positive content and soaks it all up but transformed into unhealthy content. The purpose of this website is for Hindu discussion and when dozens of posts are made about something completely off-topic and especially when they are abusive, action will be taken.

It is easier on me and other mods as well as the members of this forum to ignore the inappropriate posts and instead report them. That way they do not A) waste my time and B) waste their time.

Additionally, there is no liability on the part of Hindu Universe to keep ANY of the posts contained here. So far we have posts going back to 1999 and I don't intend on removing any of them short of the ones that are abusive. Regardless, many forums I have used do not archive their posts unless they are exceptional posts. In other words, such forums will have time limits where a user can only respond to a post that is within say 30 days and say posts that are over a year old disappear never to be recovered. I will not and have not randomly removed posts for no reason or because I didn't agree with them. There are still many inappropriate posts on this site that are generally older posts and I will eventually get to them. There are over 50,000 posts here and it takes time.

Last but not least, the thread itself had nothing to do with Hinduism and was not even in the correct forum. In addition to deleting the inappropriate posts and their needless responses, I also moved the thread to the correct forum. After all of this, the thread STILL went off-topic. It won't happen again because if it does and the same users are doing it, I will take further action up to and including removing their accounts.

This seems harsh but this forum should be treated as a virtual temple. Hindus are expected to be respectful when entering a mandir. I hope that Hindus here know those rules. Generally if you wouldn't behave a certain way in a temple, you shouldn't behave that way here. If some of the behavior that happens here happened in a temple, they would be arrested by the police. Just because this is Kali Yuga doesn't provide an excuse not to think before you act. ~Shaivite~


--------------------
Love all and serve all. Surrender to the Divine.

"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." --Mahatma Gandhi

"Love moves the world." --His Holiness Sri Sri Ravi Shankar

aum namaH shivAya

"

 

[nirotu]

Dear Pam:

Just when I was ready to respond to your last querry on Hindu net we both were ousted! Luckily, I did have a copy of my response along with your questions. Here it is!

You are one of the nicer and more enlightened Christians. Most I know of are real bad and egoistic. You know why I dumped Christianity - I simply did not like this faith's shoving of faith into others by force or deceit. Which God has permitted you to do that?

Thank you! Now we can have a friendly chat about such meaningful topics.

I agree that you show some respect for Hindu saints and did not refer them as Satanists like many Christians like my mom. But even then you just seem to think that these people were great, but they were selfish and did not possess enough merit for others to follow? If you think these saints are great people, what problem do you have with these Hindus here? Why do they need Jesus at all, if they have received great teachings of great teachers?

Buddha and Krishna existed before Jesus and at best Jesus borrowed their teachings. Not the other way around.

All sages and Sadhus or Munis etc were tremendously engrossed in their path of seeking the divine and becoming enlightened. They all attained certain level of “Gyana” and passed on to disciples. Along the way they became great teachers giving us insight into the nature of God. However, they were human beings seeking God rather than a direct descent of the Son of God. Again, just because I am making these comparisons does not negate their holiness and their achievements.

The human incarnation is complex. Different Sages and Saints have addressed at different levels. Buddha has addressed the path of the mind; Ramana has addressed the ego etc. These are all like light bulbs of various voltages. At different times you use different voltages to illuminate the path. There is something to be said about the light of the Sun (a metaphor for truth in Jesus’ message) that illumines everything.

Christianity has nothing to do with the philosophy of Hinduism when it comes to the matter of salvation. You see, if Christ ever borrowed any theology from Hinduism or Buddhism, the nature and scope of His message would have been entirely different. If one looks way back at Jesus times, there was no dogma of any kind in its propagation. However, Churches have conveniently packaged it for consumers. Therefore, I urge everyone to look at the message without any dogma attached.

When Jesus says, “ Love your God with all your heart and love your neighbor as thyself”. He did not mean that to say, love only people of like faith, nor did he say only Christian love to be emulated. One must not take His teaching to be narrow and designed for a select group of people. His message is for all and invitation is to all. On a deeper level He showed us what the love is by action. Every action of Jesus on the earth, right down to His crucifixion, demonstrates His love and compassion for the lost souls.

Similarly, I do take the message of Lord Krishna with equal reverence. When you consider, for example Chap 16, as simply a dialogue between Arjuna and Lord Krishna you tend to lose all its purported meaning. Consider it a dialogue between Lord Krishna and you or me. It is Krishna talking to you and me and not just Arjuna, then it becomes effective in its delivery. On a deeper level you will see the humility in Arjuna by surrendering all his ego before Krishna. Arjuna was a great warrior, intelligent and noble and had everything going for him. But his desire was to seek further understanding and , more importantly, he was a willing listener.

Are you saying that Buddha ever had enlightenment or not?

Yes, Buddha was self-realized and enlightened but for himself. His profound conclusion was to strive to detach ourselves from the desires and actions of our ego in order to attain enlightenment. On Buddha’s deathbed his followers asked who they should follow next and he replied “ Be ye a lamp unto yourselves; workout your own salvation with diligence.” While he was certain of his own future, he was not so sure of his disciples because he did not believe in a personal God to be saved.

If yes, then what is the need of Christ? If no, then why are using the word saint here? Please be consistent.

Do you know why Buddha started his own religion while being born a Hindu? Was there a need for that? Why did he become an atheist? When there were other paths available for “Nirvana” or “Moksha” why did he choose to separate himself? It was out of rejection from Hinduism that the Buddhism took root. He could not believe in a personal or impersonal God!

Why bring Jesus? As Swamy Yogananda so aptly puts it. “ The profound meaning of Jesus birth is the forgiveness of God.”

Word saint is to show the “self-realization” achieved by these sages.

Christ message is simple - follow me or perish. Am I right or wrong?

With all due respect, you are wrong! Bible does not say if you did not believe in Jesus you go to hell, which is very dogmatic concept of condemnation. The meaning of perish here is not disappear. It means you are condemned to struggle like a mortal and die in your ignorance without God. Even the term “follow me” is not to be taken as literal physical act. What He is suggesting in that is to surrender and hold the hand of grace, which alone can pull us out of ignorance of matter.


Blessings,

 

[MahaSudarshanChakra]

Dear Satay:

You seem to defend Hindu-net so well, perhaps I need to ask you this.

I will accept the premise under which I was ousted. Heck, I will even accept that I was a “bad boy and a boat rocker” in Hindu net. Perhaps, you care to explain me one thing!



I do understand that if the discussions are way off-course they (Mods) have every right to delete all irrelevant posts. Agreed! Why someone who was honestly seeking truth (Pretty-Pam) was barred without any warning to her? Was it just because she was conversing with me? Were they trying to protect her from me?



I hope you will come up with a reasonable answer!

Blessings,

Nirotu,

Please use judgement. That user was never banned. This is what she said:

I asked the mod on Hindunet why he deleted my posts because I never talked ill of Hinduism, I was told that the thread was completely off topic and it was their policy to delete all related posts. But I was disappointed to see an entire long thread deleted because it was a very nice discussion and you were truly brilliant. Anyway, I hope to learn something from you here.

Her posts were simply deleted along with yours and other Hindus as all of them strayed off topic. I do not think she was banned from that site, atleast that is what it appears to me.

I dont why you want to talk ill of that site - you were allowed to discuss with Hindus for several months were'nt you? I remember many of your posts calling advaita a hogwash. Some advaitins reported you to site mod.

Satay, Proudvedic and some others(these were non advaitins) have told me on PM that they were impressed with you - I bet here Satay is just kidding you. I still have his mail with me which reads: I like nirotu but always feel tempted to debate him. You know Satay's wife is a christian right? He has nothing against christians in general. When he sees some of the anti Hindu posts his BP goes up.

 

[nirotu]

I let our mod speak for himself who by the way is an ex-christian but writes beautifully. I post this here without his authorization I will ask for his forgiveness later...

"Moderator Note:

This is the second time the same thread has contained problems. Please note that this is a Hindu website designed for primarily Hindu discussion. We allow differing opinions so long as they are free from abuse. While people from other faiths can also share their views, preaching and converting on these forums are not allowed. This is a HINDU discussion board and when Christians, Muslims, or others go beyond simply having a healthy discussion to attacking Hinduism and telling members here to accept Christ (or anything else from whatever they are preaching), the inappropriate posts are removed and the user is banned. Sometimes I give the person a warning and sometimes they don't get a warning depending on the seriousness of the problem.

Users are required to agree to a set of rules before even posting and they know better not to preach their religions and attack ours so when they choose to do it anyway, they are removed from Hindu Universe. I have made dozens of notices on this board to NOT RESPOND to inappropriate posts but instead to ignore them and report them to me. There is a very obvious reason to this. This "three page" thread that was deleted by me had almost all of its posts made in one single day. In fact, virtually the entire day's worth of posts were in that thread. Users who would normally post positive Hindu content in other threads become entagled in fighting nonsense and creating more of it. If for instance, it took a week for a moderator to notice, a few posts can turn into a few hundred posts and I've seen it happen in the past. Inappropriate behavior acts as a sponge that drains the environment of all positive content and soaks it all up but transformed into unhealthy content. The purpose of this website is for Hindu discussion and when dozens of posts are made about something completely off-topic and especially when they are abusive, action will be taken.

It is easier on me and other mods as well as the members of this forum to ignore the inappropriate posts and instead report them. That way they do not A) waste my time and B) waste their time.

Additionally, there is no liability on the part of Hindu Universe to keep ANY of the posts contained here. So far we have posts going back to 1999 and I don't intend on removing any of them short of the ones that are abusive. Regardless, many forums I have used do not archive their posts unless they are exceptional posts. In other words, such forums will have time limits where a user can only respond to a post that is within say 30 days and say posts that are over a year old disappear never to be recovered. I will not and have not randomly removed posts for no reason or because I didn't agree with them. There are still many inappropriate posts on this site that are generally older posts and I will eventually get to them. There are over 50,000 posts here and it takes time.

Last but not least, the thread itself had nothing to do with Hinduism and was not even in the correct forum. In addition to deleting the inappropriate posts and their needless responses, I also moved the thread to the correct forum. After all of this, the thread STILL went off-topic. It won't happen again because if it does and the same users are doing it, I will take further action up to and including removing their accounts.

This seems harsh but this forum should be treated as a virtual temple. Hindus are expected to be respectful when entering a mandir. I hope that Hindus here know those rules. Generally if you wouldn't behave a certain way in a temple, you shouldn't behave that way here. If some of the behavior that happens here happened in a temple, they would be arrested by the police. Just because this is Kali Yuga doesn't provide an excuse not to think before you act. ~Shaivite~


--------------------
Love all and serve all. Surrender to the Divine.

"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." --Mahatma Gandhi

"Love moves the world." --His Holiness Sri Sri Ravi Shankar

aum namaH shivAya

"

Dear Satay:

Let me rephrase my question. I am not so much concerned about me being ousted. I will agree with the Mod on that. But, I am curious to know your Mod's logic in ousting Pretty-pam. Thats all?

She seems to have just joined and followed all rules!

Blessings,

 

[satay]

Dear Satay:

Let me rephrase my question. I am not so much concerned about me being ousted. I will agree with the Mod on that. But, I am curious to know your Mod's logic in ousting Pretty-pam. Thats all?

She seems to have just joined and followed all rules!

Blessings,

Dear Nirotu,
I am not sure that Pam was ousted or banned. I think she just stopped posting there out of her anger that her posts were deleted (there is a reaso for that. Even my posts were deleted on similar threads in similar circumstances).

By the way, I am not a mod at hindunet so there is no way for me to know for sure if she was banned or not. We only have her word for it which is good enough for me.

Is her word good enough for you?

Perhaps Pam can correct me if I am wrong.

satay

 

[satay]

Satay, Proudvedic and some others(these were non advaitins) have told me on PM that they were impressed with you - I bet here Satay is just kidding you. I still have his mail with me which reads: I like nirotu but always feel tempted to debate him. You know Satay's wife is a christian right? He has nothing against christians in general. When he sees some of the anti Hindu posts his BP goes up.

You know me too well my friend.

And yes, I am scared of these malecchas this is why I am here on this site.

satay

 

[nirotu]

Dear Nirotu,
I am not sure that Pam was ousted or banned. I think she just stopped posting there out of her anger that her posts were deleted (there is a reaso for that. Even my posts were deleted on similar threads in similar circumstances).

By the way, I am not a mod at hindunet so there is no way for me to know for sure if she was banned or not. We only have her word for it which is good enough for me.

Is her word good enough for you?

Perhaps Pam can correct me if I am wrong.

satay

Time to move on! I stand corrected if she was not truly ousted!

Blessings,

 

[MahaSudarshanChakra]

Time to move on! I stand corrected if she was not truly ousted!

Blessings,

But how do you know you are banned? Were you unable to login or got an email from admin?

Anyway, I think hindunet should not be banning anybody unless somebody is wicked or very hateful. If you were banned I think it was not logical - deletion of posts is OK. Well, they have their rules, no use moaning here.

 

[satay]

But how do you know you are banned? Were you unable to login or got an email from admin?

Anyway, I think hindunet should not be banning anybody unless somebody is wicked or very hateful. If you were banned I think it was not logical - deletion of posts is OK. Well, they have their rules, no use moaning here.

That's a good question.

Nirotu? Can you not log in to hindunet? Or do you just choose not to post their out of anger that your anti-hindu posts were deleted?

satay

 

[coolbodhi]

This is a good post.
But I have a couple of questions. Do you believe in Bhagwat Geeta?

Similarly, I do take the message of Lord Krishna with equal reverence. When you consider, for example Chap 16, as simply a dialogue between Arjuna and Lord Krishna you tend to lose all its purported meaning. Consider it a dialogue between Lord Krishna and you or me. It is Krishna talking to you and me and not just Arjuna, then it becomes effective in its delivery. On a deeper level you will see the humility in Arjuna by surrendering all his ego before Krishna. Arjuna was a great warrior, intelligent and noble and had everything going for him. But his desire was to seek further understanding and , more importantly, he was a willing listener.

Yes, Buddha was self-realized and enlightened but for himself. His profound conclusion was to strive to detach ourselves from the desires and actions of our ego in order to attain enlightenment. On Buddha’s deathbed his followers asked who they should follow next and he replied “ Be ye a lamp unto yourselves; workout your own salvation with diligence.” While he was certain of his own future, he was not so sure of his disciples because he did not believe in a personal God to be saved.



Do you know why Buddha started his own religion while being born a Hindu? Was there a need for that? Why did he become an atheist? When there were other paths available for “Nirvana” or “Moksha” why did he choose to separate himself? It was out of rejection from Hinduism that the Buddhism took root. He could not believe in a personal or impersonal God!

Are you a buddhist? I urge some buddhists here to answer these questions if they may. I am very interested to know the answers from a buddhist perspective.

With all due respect, you are wrong! Bible does not say if you did not believe in Jesus you go to hell, which is very dogmatic concept of condemnation. The meaning of perish here is not disappear. It means you are condemned to struggle like a mortal and die in your ignorance without God.

Could you please elaborate on this? What do you mean when you say that we are 'condemned to struggle like a mortal and die in ignorance'

Even the term “follow me” is not to be taken as literal physical act. What He is suggesting in that is to surrender and hold the hand of grace, which alone can pull us out of ignorance of matter.

Surrender to GOD. Should one surrender to GOD or Jesus?

Sorry to barge in your conversation with another poster.

 

[nirotu]

That's a good question.

Nirotu? Can you not log in to hindunet? Or do you just choose not to post their out of anger that your anti-hindu posts were deleted?

satay

Dear Satay:

I did try several times. I tried to pm to mod but no reply and no warning. Each time I try to login this is the message that I get:

"Your account has been banned or locked: preaching Christianity on Hindu forums (in every post), anti-Hindu posts, personal attacks"

I sure would have liked to know if I attacked anyone personally. I tried to be respectfull to all people inspite of our disagreement on doctrinal issues. After all, forum is the place where you present differing or opposing views or at least thats what I thought.

Anyway, by gone be by gone. I do not worry about it anymore.
Thanks for asking.

Blessings,

 

[satay]

Dear Satay:

I did try several times. I tried to pm to mod but no reply and no warning. Each time I try to login this is the message that I get:

"Your account has been banned or locked: preaching Christianity on Hindu forums (in every post), anti-Hindu posts, personal attacks"

I sure would have liked to know if I attacked anyone personally. I tried to be respectfull to all people inspite of our disagreement on doctrinal issues. After all, forum is the place where you present differing or opposing views or at least thats what I thought.

Anyway, by gone be by gone. I do not worry about it anymore.
Thanks for asking.

Blessings,

Namase Nirotu,
I don't think you attacked anyone personally. perhaps once when you lost it with pagan but he was asking for it if I remember it correctly.

But I am glad that you were banned for your "preaching" on the hindu net. promotion of other religions is not permitted here either; I have got several warnings and am about to be banned for a year from this forum shortly. Not that I care about the ban. Obviously, if I am banned my point will be proven that christianity as we know it today is not the message of jesus and is corrupted hell scare of paul and if anyone says this they will be banned or killed or both!

I think you have found a home here where you can post your anti-hindu stuff and you will gain reputation points even. I noticed with your first post to me here on this forum you had 100 rep points. Your x-hindu buddies here support your anti-hindu propaganda fully.

Blessings as always,
satay

 

[MahaSudarshanChakra]

Hi nirotu,

If you could clarify here...

I said:

They never preached anything like the "one way" nonsense failing which there is doom and nothing else. It is a negative philosophy.

to which you replied

Again, I repeat you read carefully. Nowhere in the Bible will you see this. The stumbling block in understanding Jesus and His message lies in the ignorance of man.

and later

With all due respect, you are wrong! Bible does not say if you did not believe in Jesus you go to hell, which is very dogmatic concept of condemnation. The meaning of perish here is not disappear. It means you are condemned to struggle like a mortal and die in your ignorance without God.

I overlooked your line here, when you said instead of a hell , "you are condemned to struggle like a mortal and die in your ignorance without God".


I understand that bible has no place for a second chance of redemption, so what exactly do you mean by "dying in ignorance about God"?

Let me rephrase my questions:

Just like Christianity posits, Hinduism also posits that man chooses his own destiny to which the Lord never interferes. If you choose to reject God and either be an atheist, or have a gross misunderstanding about yourself or God, like assuming oneself to be God or thinking ill of God, God does not grant you release from this bondage called the samsara, with which you must be familiar.

To a Hindu, there are exactly three choices in life.

1. Take absolute shelter under God without caring for salavtion or the worldly pleasures, and just live and breathe God and taking complete refuge, the essentially philosophy preached by my school.

2. Work out your own salvation by indulging in any of the Yoga - Karma Yoga, Bhakti Yoga or Jnana Yoga. In all these beleif systems, strong beleif in God is stressed. The objective is these paths is to obtain knowledge of Self and God, which ultimately results in release.

3. Ignore religion and God, be an atheist or a theist without any spiritual practice. "I beleive in God, yet I dont care to approach" attitude.



The first category are said to be liberated by the Lord under most circumstances, but is still a very difficult to path to follow because man hardly beleives that "just trust in God is needed" for salvation rather than working out own salvation. So very few people in the world ever fall in such a spiritual mode.

Most Hindus follow Bhakti Yoga or Karma Yoga, and hope that they have done enough sadhana to be blessed with a vision of God that leads to salvation. In these paths, unless one is able to obtain a vision or knowledge of God, salvation is out of question. Thus a vast majority of people following these disciplines will reincarnate again and again until the goal is acheived.


Regarding Christianity, I think we both agree on the first category. What is your opinion the people who choose the second path and the third paths. What exactly happens to them when you say "they die in ignorance about God". Is that an eternal verdict handed out to them to live in such an ignorance. On the divine grace shows them the way at some point in eternity even though have rejected God or accepted God but failed to surender to him?

What is your opinion?

 

[nirotu]

Namase Nirotu,

But I am glad that you were banned for your "preaching" on the hindu net. promotion of other religions is not permitted here either; I have got several warnings and am about to be banned for a year from this forum shortly. Not that I care about the ban. Obviously, if I am banned my point will be proven that christianity as we know it today is not the message of jesus and is corrupted hell scare of paul and if anyone says this they will be banned or killed or both!


Blessings as always,
satay

Dear Satay:

I am saddened by your response. But one thing is clear to me is that to you any Christian view is considered anti-Hindu. Therefore, when you discuss with any Christian with this spirit then you have lost the meaning and purpose of discussion. You have only legitimized the fear among fanatic Hindus.



I have nothing more to say than to wish you the very best in everything.



Blessings,

 

[satay]

Dear Satay:

I am saddened by your response. But one thing is clear to me is that to you any Christian view is considered anti-Hindu. Therefore, when you discuss with any Christian with this spirit then you have lost the meaning and purpose of discussion. You have only legitimized the fear among fanatic Hindus.



I have nothing more to say than to wish you the very best in everything.



Blessings,

Namaste Nirotu,

I am saddened by your response too. It seems that you and other x-hindu friends of yours think that Dharma traditions and all traditions outside of the christian thought are false and when you start your discussions with that kind of thought you loose the purpose and the spirit of the discussion even before the discussion starts.

You too have only legitimized the fears that you guys have of other traditions especially Sanatana Dharma. On top of that, when you guys can't even convince the guy working in cow dung all day long with your mythological, incoherent nonsense the frustration is quite obvious.

I am also saddened to see that you feel that it's okay somehow for an x-hindu like yourself to talk about your current beliefs and trash your previous belief system but when it comes to dharma traditions voicing their opinion on your belief system that your organization either bans them, kills them or both. That seems to come from the inherent fear from the theology of the organization that you belong to.

Who can forget about how you guys have treated the philosophers and scientists of the past and not to mention the same treatment that is going on today (osho, case in point).

I am also saddened to see that people really do believe in this nonsense and this slave mentality of yours is somewhat of a gift that we got from our past invaders.

Saddened also to see that you took a low blow and called me a fanatic for doing the same thing that you have been doing. In my book that is called hypocrite but since you are friend, I will not use that word to describe you but let the readers of this forum decide for themselves.

Parting thoughts: it is never the intention of a hindu to make hindu out of a christian. Never! I just pray that you become a better christian and see the propaganda that you belong to.

Blessings as always,

satay

 

[nirotu]

Namaste Nirotu,

I am saddened by your response too. It seems that you and other x-hindu friends of yours think that Dharma traditions and all traditions outside of the christian thought are false and when you start your discussions with that kind of thought you loose the purpose and the spirit of the discussion even before the discussion starts.

You too have only legitimized the fears that you guys have of other traditions especially Sanatana Dharma. On top of that, when you guys can't even convince the guy working in cow dung all day long with your mythological, incoherent nonsense the frustration is quite obvious.

I am also saddened to see that you feel that it's okay somehow for an x-hindu like yourself to talk about your current beliefs and trash your previous belief system but when it comes to dharma traditions voicing their opinion on your belief system that your organization either bans them, kills them or both. That seems to come from the inherent fear from the theology of the organization that you belong to.

Who can forget about how you guys have treated the philosophers and scientists of the past and not to mention the same treatment that is going on today (osho, case in point).

I am also saddened to see that people really do believe in this nonsense and this slave mentality of yours is somewhat of a gift that we got from our past invaders.

Saddened also to see that you took a low blow and called me a fanatic for doing the same thing that you have been doing. In my book that is called hypocrite but since you are friend, I will not use that word to describe you but let the readers of this forum decide for themselves.

Parting thoughts: it is never the intention of a hindu to make hindu out of a christian. Never! I just pray that you become a better christian and see the propaganda that you belong to.

Blessings as always,

satay

Thank you!
Blessings,

 

[nirotu]

I overlooked your line here, when you said instead of a hell, "you are condemned to struggle like a mortal and die in your ignorance without God".

I understand that bible has no place for a second chance of redemption, so what exactly do you mean by "dying in ignorance about God"?

Dear Sudarshan:



Many of my own views may be considered heretic among main stream Christianity. I think today the doctrine in Christianity has more to do with the “will of the Church” than with the “will of the Father.” I am sorry to say it is true, at least it appears to me that way.



Having said that let me clarify what I meant.



The verse I referred above is from: John 3:18 “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.”

Jesus could not have meant that if you did not believe in Him, you have eternal damnation! No. Because, many before Jesus (like Abraham, Moses, Elijah and many Saints) have been saved before Jesus was born. Therefore, the statement is self-defeating if taken literally. Also, to think that God somehow condemns non-believers as sinners is also self-defeating since Lord himself dwells amongst all and it would only mean self-condemnation.



Here is how I would take it to mean. I consider the life is a precious gift from God. How we use our gift of life is very important to God. Therefore, the life time we have, however short, on earth is an opportunity to better ourselves because there is no second chance. Why would one postpone that opportunity to the next life is not clear to me.



That opportunity is provided to us through the eternal message or our consciousness through Jesus. As P.Yogananda puts it “ When we don’t heed to that essential message in Christ we are condemned to live and think as a struggling mortal, delimited by sensory boundaries because he is essentially disunited from the eternal principle of life.” He refers to “avidya – Ignorance” is the root cause of all wrong choices, which he refers to suffering-hell in us. Here again I speak in human realm.

To a Hindu, there are exactly three choices in life.

1. Take absolute shelter under God without caring for salvation or the worldly pleasures, and just live and breathe God and taking complete refuge, the essentially philosophy preached by my school.

I do understand VA school in this regard. However I do notice the difference between two schools (VA and Christianity), where the Christian deeply cares for his salvation. While he is surrendering to God’s Mercy but lives and thinks that it is the grace that has brought him thus far and only grace will lead him home.

At the same time, I cannot simply rely on faith-only in God to carry me through. If I want to be like say a muscle man (Mr.Universe), I cannot simply believe in it by faith and sit tight. I still have to workout and take my vitamins. The essential faith produces good work in you automatically. Therefore, faith without works is meaningless to a Christian. (Correct me if I am wrong!).

2. Work out your own salvation by indulging in any of the Yoga - Karma Yoga, Bhakti Yoga or Jnana Yoga. In all these beleif systems, strong beleif in God is stressed. The objective is these paths is to obtain knowledge of Self and God, which ultimately results in release.

This is where I see the fundamental difference in two doctrines. If you mean that religion is humanity’s search for the divine through these processes, it is bound to fail. We are God’s creation and we are His creatures. How can creature aspire to reach God, the creator? I believe, far from all religions leading to God, no religion can lead to God. Therefore, the creature cannot possibly discover the creator unless God chooses to disclose Himself. It is said in Isaiah 55, 8:"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. 10” As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.”

Therefore, it makes sense to me that instead of man reaching God, God Himself reaching to Human in flesh. Therefore, Christian truly believes not only in revelation of His will but His “self” also in the Bible.

3. Ignore religion and God, be an atheist or a theist without any spiritual practice. "I believe in God, yet I don’t care to approach" attitude.

To me atheism has no meaning. When a person (atheist) who claims there is no God has already contradicted himself. He would say that based on knowledge of this complete universe. Only person with such knowledge is God therefore he essentially proved himself to be God.

Most Hindus follow Bhakti Yoga or Karma Yoga, and hope that they have done enough sadhana to be blessed with a vision of God that leads to salvation. In these paths, unless one is able to obtain a vision or knowledge of God, salvation is out of question. Thus a vast majority of people following these disciplines will reincarnate again and again until the goal is achieved.

I have fundamental difficulty in understanding re-incarnation. I can pose those sometimes.

On the divine grace shows them the way at some point in eternity even though have rejected God or accepted God but failed to surrender to him?

The very fact that the man rejected God shows his willful disobedience. It is not because they have not heard the Gospel that they are condemned but because they reject the righteousness they already know. Therefore, rejecting the righteousness is rejecting God.



But, I consider God is merciful and just to all – not just Christians. There no such thing as “unfair treatment” coming from God. God is just and righteous. Even for a child born in Hindu family, God's "common" grace is active in the world even without His "saving" grace. This common grace is represented in our conscience and the Imago Dei (image of God) which all people possess. Man is essentially good only in this sense, that He is created in God's image and follows that image irrespective of their relationship with God. Man is essentially evil in the sense that he rejects God as the basis for that goodness. So, I attribute any good that anyone knows and does by instinct as part of the image of God. Any good that we do with respect to choosing God is done because God has sovereignly moved in our hearts to recognize and love Him (reconciliation). Accordingly God’s justice works in a believer and non-believer whether he is a child or an adult.



It all ultimately falls down to willful choices that man makes.



You may not agree with all I am saying but that is the nature of such discussion forums. I hope that our differences in opinion would not come in the way our respect for each other.


Blessings,