Respectfully for the Doc

[ricker]

I was starting to read the thread "Should Christians keep the Sabbath" and have an observation to make. In post 3 you write:

Within that Sermon on the Mount, Jesus proclaimed clearly that it was not His purpose that the law be done away with. He declared,

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 5:17-19.
​

A “jot” and “tittle” were the smallest parts of Hebrew letters. Jesus is saying, “Not a sentence, not a word, not a letter, not even a fragment of a letter will be removed from the law till all is finished.”

What “commandments” is He talking about? He proceeds directly to say,

“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder,’….but I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment.” Matthew 5:21, 22.
​

“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery.” Matthew 5:27, 28.
​

It goes without saying that the portions Jesus quoted, as illustrations of the law that He came “not to destroy” are from the Ten Commandments. To say that Jesus’ death on the cross put an end to the Ten Commandments flies in the face of Christ’s direct statement given in the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus didn’t say, “By the way, you only have to obey the Ten Commandments for another three years or so, because when I die on Calvary they will be nullified.” To maintain that things changed at the cross and now we’re free to disobey the Commandments goes directly against His comment, “Till heaven and earth pass.”

I'm not allowed to question things where this was originally written, so I'll post this here...

Why did you skip some verses in Matt. 5?

23Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

These are obviously not speaking of the ten commandments, but of sacrifices we probably agree were fulfilled at the cross. You can't have it both ways. Either the jots and tittles were fulfilled or not.

I don't plan on debating everything you have written. This just happened to jump out at me.

God bless! Ricker

 

[NumberOneSon]

I think Doc is having some medical issues. He hasn't been active on the site since mid December, so don't expect a speedy reply.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

 

[ricker]

I think Doc is having some medical issues. He hasn't been active on the site since mid December, so don't expect a speedy reply.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

I hope and pray his health improves if he is still having problems. He did post today.

 

[NumberOneSon]

I hope and pray his health improves if he is still having problems. He did post today.

Ok. Then he must be somewhat better.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

 

[Pythons]

Best wishes to the Doc!

 

[digdeep]

I was starting to read the thread "Should Christians keep the Sabbath" and have an observation to make. In post 3 you write:


I'm not allowed to question things where this was originally written, so I'll post this here...

Why did you skip some verses in Matt. 5?

23Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

These are obviously not speaking of the ten commandments, but of sacrifices we probably agree were fulfilled at the cross. You can't have it both ways. Either the jots and tittles were fulfilled or not.

I don't plan on debating everything you have written. This just happened to jump out at me.

God bless! Ricker

You make a very good point here. I will have to look at these verses closer. Thanks.

dd

 

[thecountrydoc]

Hello Ricker and to each of you who have posted to this thread.

Acts 6:5 is correct to think of medical problems. Back in December I took a very bad fall that resulted in a badly broken arm and damage to both knees. The additional injuries, combined with some other long standing orthopedic injuries, have prevented much activity. As a result I've been quite imoble and unable to drive or even sit at the keyboard. Yesterday was the first time I've been back to CF to finish "Should Christians Keep the Sabbath?" in the main forum. Today is the first time I've taken a look at anything else. Still can't sit in one position for very long.

I will take a look at the point you mentioned Ricker and be back a bit later.

Your brother in Christ,
Doc

 

[IntoTheCrimsonSky]

God bless, Doc. Both sorry to hear that you've been suffering and happy to hear you're at least improving. You'll be in my prayers.

 

[IntoTheCrimsonSky]

I was starting to read the thread "Should Christians keep the Sabbath" and have an observation to make. In post 3 you write:


I'm not allowed to question things where this was originally written, so I'll post this here...

Why did you skip some verses in Matt. 5?

23Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

These are obviously not speaking of the ten commandments, but of sacrifices we probably agree were fulfilled at the cross. You can't have it both ways. Either the jots and tittles were fulfilled or not.

I don't plan on debating everything you have written. This just happened to jump out at me.

God bless! Ricker

Very interesting point..I hope it's okay if I throw in my two cents, considering this was posted to Doc.

Although this is just my own thought and I don't actually have verses to back it up, this is what came to mind when I read that:

Have we really stopped with bringing sacrifices to the alter? We may not do so physically, in the way that was done before Christ died, but is that not what we do when we repent and plead mercy and forgiveness in Jesus' name? Instead of bringing an animal to the alter, we are offering Christ.

Just a thought.

 

[ricker]

Very interesting point..I hope it's okay if I throw in my two cents, considering this was posted to Doc.

Although this is just my own thought and I don't actually have verses to back it up, this is what came to mind when I read that:

Have we really stopped with bringing sacrifices to the alter? We may not do so physically, in the way that was done before Christ died, but is that not what we do when we repent and plead mercy and forgiveness in Jesus' name? Instead of bringing an animal to the alter, we are offering Christ.

Just a thought.

Thanks! I'm pretty sure the "jots and tittle" reference means "in any way at all, no matter how small". To change definite actions to spiritual ones would still seem to be a change to me. Am I wrong here?
God bless! Ricker

 

[ricker]

Hello Ricker and to each of you who have posted to this thread.

Acts 6:5 is correct to think of medical problems. Back in December I took a very bad fall that resulted in a badly broken arm and damage to both knees. The additional injuries, combined with some other long standing orthopedic injuries, have prevented much activity. As a result I've been quite imoble and unable to drive or even sit at the keyboard. Yesterday was the first time I've been back to CF to finish "Should Christians Keep the Sabbath?" in the main forum. Today is the first time I've taken a look at anything else. Still can't sit in one position for very long.

I will take a look at the point you mentioned Ricker and be back a bit later.

Your brother in Christ,
Doc

That sounds like some really tough times! I pray you will heal completely and soon. Your presence here with your grace and insights are always appreciated. Don't put yourself out to answer.
God bless! Ricker

 

[woobadooba]

First of all, the context suggests that when Jesus was speaking of the 'Law' (capital L) He was referring to the Moral Law, that is, the Ten Commandments. The references to the 'commandments' in v. 19 and to murder and adultery in verses 21 and 27 further validate this point.

Secondly, has heaven and earth passed away yet? In other words, have all things been made new? Has Revelation 21:3-4 been fulfilled? No!

Therefore, not one jot or tittle has passed away from the Moral Law (Ten Commandments).

Now then, what did Jesus really mean?

What good is it to try to make an offering to God if you and your brother are divided by hatred? In other words, if you want to demonstrate your love for God then you will do it by loving those for whom Jesus died.

Paul further emphasized Jesus' point when he had said:

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service." (Romans 12:1 NKJV)

Paul made it very clear that there is no greater offering that one could give to God than to offer his life to God in the service of love. To try to serve God without love is to not serve God at all. Instead, it is to make the same kind of offering to God that Cain did--a lifeless offering.

God doesn't so much want us to give Him things that already belong to Him as He wants us to separate ourselves from that which is keeping us from giving Him our hearts.

"In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother's righteous.

Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. But whoever has this world's goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?" (1 John 3:10-17 NKJV)

"If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also." (1 John 4:20-21 NKJV)

In essence, Jesus point in chapter 5 of Matthew was to emphasize love for God and man.

And how do we do that?

We do that by keeping God's commandments.

Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. (1 John 5:1-3 NKJV) See Matt 5:19 again where a reference to 'commandments' is made!

Therefore, to use Jesus' words as a means to say the Sabbath has been done away with is to not only take what He had said out of context; it is to desecrate the meaning of His message!

 

[ricker]

First of all, the context suggests that when Jesus was speaking of the 'Law' (capital L) He was referring to the Moral Law, that is, the Ten Commandments. The references to the 'commandments' in v. 19 and to murder and adultery in verses 21 and 27 further validate this point.

Secondly, has heaven and earth passed away yet? In other words, have all things been made new? Has Revelation 21:3-4 been fulfilled? No!

Therefore, not one jot or tittle has passed away from the Moral Law (Ten Commandments).

Now then, what did Jesus really mean?

What good is it to try to make an offering to God if you and your brother are divided by hatred? In other words, if you want to demonstrate your love for God then you will do it by loving those for whom Jesus died.

Paul further emphasized Jesus' point when he had said:

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service." (Romans 12:1 NKJV)

Paul made it very clear that there is no greater offering that one could give to God than to offer his life to God in the service of love. To try to serve God without love is to not serve God at all. Instead, it is to make the same kind of offering to God that Cain did--a lifeless offering.

God doesn't so much want us to give Him things that already belong to Him as He wants us to separate ourselves from that which is keeping us from giving Him our hearts.

"In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother's righteous.

Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. But whoever has this world's goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?" (1 John 3:10-17 NKJV)

"If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also." (1 John 4:20-21 NKJV)

In essence, Jesus point in chapter 5 of Matthew was to emphasize love for God and man.

And how do we do that?

We do that by keeping God's commandments.

Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. (1 John 5:1-3 NKJV) See Matt 5:19 again where a reference to 'commandments' is made!

Therefore, to use Jesus' words as a means to say the Sabbath has been done away with is to not only take what He had said out of context; it is to desecrate the meaning of His message!

Through all this are you saying that the jots and tittles Jesus spoke of mean only in the moral law, and the ceremonial laws having to do with sacricices are fulfilled?

 

[woobadooba]

Through all this are you saying that the jots and tittles Jesus spoke of mean only in the moral law, and the ceremonial laws having to do with sacricices are fulfilled?

The context does not appear to support the idea that Jesus is referring to the sacrificial laws; rather, it suggests that He is referring to the Commandments of God, which are otherwise known as the Ten Commandments or the Moral Law.

The references to 'commandments' in v. 19 and murder and adultery in verses 21 and 27 seem support this conclusion. Moreover, the essential idea of the chapter speaks of the Moral Law in that it emphasizes love for God and man. In other words, the emphasis is on love, not sacrifice.

Again, when it says not one jot or tittle shall pass away from the law it also says that this won't happen until heaven and earth pass away. That obviously hasn't happened yet, because Revelation 21:3-4 has not been fulfilled. The keywords here are "till all is fulfilled". This phrase obviously doesn't exclude the second coming of Christ, since that is a part of the testimony of the 'prophets', so to speak.

If we were to take the law as referring to the sacrificial system then that wouldn't make much sense as heaven and earth has not passed away, and not everything that has been foretold by the prophets concerning the work of the Messiah (Jesus) has reached its fulfillment yet.

 

[ricker]

The context does not appear to support the idea that Jesus is referring to the sacrificial laws; rather, it suggests that He is referring to the Commandments of God, which are otherwise known as the Ten Commandments or the Moral Law.

The references to 'commandments' in v. 19 and murder and adultery in verses 21 and 27 seem support this conclusion. Moreover, the essential idea of the chapter speaks of the Moral Law in that it emphasizes love for God and man. In other words, the emphasis is on love, not sacrifice.

Again, when it says not one jot or tittle shall pass away from the law it also says that this won't happen until heaven and earth pass away. That obviously hasn't happened yet, because Revelation 21:3-4 has not been fulfilled. The keywords here are "till all is fulfilled". This phrase obviously doesn't exclude the second coming of Christ, since that is a part of the testimony of the 'prophets', so to speak.

If we were to take the law as referring to the sacrificial system then that wouldn't make much sense as heaven and earth has not passed away, and not everything that has been foretold by the prophets concerning the work of the Messiah (Jesus) has reached its fulfillment yet.

So I should just figure the actions in verses 23 and 24 are not included in the jots and tittles, even though they are in the same passage, mentioned between examples of ten commandment law you alluded to? Is this not in context?

23Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

I guess I could think of these verses as fulfilled, but not the perceding or following ones.

 

[woobadooba]

So I should just figure the actions in verses 23 and 24 are not included in the jots and tittles, even though they are in the same passage, mentioned between examples of ten commandment law you alluded to? Is this not in context?


I guess I could think of these verses as fulfilled, but not the perceding or following ones.

I gave you the underlying meaning of Jesus' words. If you don't want to accept that there is nothing I can do about that.

Just understand something however; Jesus made it very clear that those who encourage others to be lawless will be called the least in heaven. Meaning, they won't be in heaven. See Matt. 7:21-23

Thus you will answer for what you are trying to do in here on the Day of Judgment. That is, because you are encouraging us to be commandment breakers you will be called the least in heaven if you don't repent. This is a very serious matter, Ricker; and you don't have much time left.

Repent!

 

[ricker]

I gave you the underlying meaning of Jesus' words. If you don't want to accept that there is nothing I can do about that.

Just understand something however; Jesus made it very clear that those who encourage others to be lawless will be called the least in heaven. Meaning, they won't be in heaven. See Matt. 7:21-23

Thus you will answer for what you are trying to do in here on the Day of Judgment. That is, because you are encouraging us to be commandment breakers you will be called the least in heaven if you don't repent. This is a very serious matter, Ricker; and you don't have much time left.

Repent!

Repenting is good. I wish I didn't have to do it so much, however. God bless!

 

[woobadooba]

Repenting is good. I wish I didn't have to do it so much, however. God bless!

I feel the same way, except that I wish I didn't have to do it at all. I mess up a lot!

 

[Idol Breaker]

Ricker, Wooba, If I may let me interject a plausible solution to this delemma.

What Ricker, I believe, is pointing out is that the verses refered to are in the same text as that used to support the Sabbath, but if this is so that these text indicate that sacrifice is still required. Let me know if I'm off track here, ok?. Any way, if you think about this thuroughly you will find that we still do sacrifice or observe sacrifice in many ways. Firstly there is the tithe, is this not a sacrifice? Does tithing bring forth a blessing when we do it obediently and with love? Was that not the purpose of the original sacrifices? Secondly, do we not also recognize the Lord's Supper? Is this not in essence the recognition of the ultimate sacrifice that God gave to us by his Son? Should we be participating it this most revered of observances with animosity for our brothers in our hearts? I believe this is what Jesus is saying here. He knew, even planned, that there would be future events and observances that would require purity and love to abound for these to be valid. Let us not dispute over differences but let us reconcil ourselves to one another, after all, we are all in the same family.

God Bless and my God Keep you.

 

[ricker]

Ricker, Wooba, If I may let me interject a plausible solution to this delemma.

What Ricker, I believe, is pointing out is that the verses refered to are in the same text as that used to support the Sabbath, but if this is so that these text indicate that sacrifice is still required. Let me know if I'm off track here, ok?. Any way, if you think about this thuroughly you will find that we still do sacrifice or observe sacrifice in many ways. Firstly there is the tithe, is this not a sacrifice? Does tithing bring forth a blessing when we do it obediently and with love? Was that not the purpose of the original sacrifices? Secondly, do we not also recognize the Lord's Supper? Is this not in essence the recognition of the ultimate sacrifice that God gave to us by his Son? Should we be participating it this most revered of observances with animosity for our brothers in our hearts? I believe this is what Jesus is saying here. He knew, even planned, that there would be future events and observances that would require purity and love to abound for these to be valid. Let us not dispute over differences but let us reconcil ourselves to one another, after all, we are all in the same family.

God Bless and my God Keep you.

Thanks, Idol Breaker. I'm am just trying to point out the passage speaks of both what we would consider moral and ceremonial laws in reference to the jots and tittles. This would make this particular passage shaky ground to prove Sabbath observance is still required.

Thank you for considering me as part of the family of God! I honestly feel the Sabbath is a perfectly fine day to worship God on. Occasionally I feel the need to "double dip" and attend my local SDA church along with my normal Lutheran one.

Gods bless! Ricker