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correct. the articulation and praxis develops as the Church deals with heresy, new cultures, etc but the doctrine itself does not change.are you referring to doctrine ALONE and not liturgy and other traditions? After Pentecost nothing else could be revealed?
Marcion 101Oh wow! That almost sounds like Gnosticism and NOT Christian! BIG YIKES!!!
Yup. My thoughts exactly!Marcion 101
Thank you, Fathercorrect. the articulation and praxis develops as the Church deals with heresy, new cultures, etc but the doctrine itself does not change.
yeah, very few Orthodox take him seriously with this stuff. to be fair, his apologetic works against New Atheism and his works on beauty are good, but when he tries to theologize it gets bad.Yup. My thoughts exactly!
no problem!Thank you, Father
Marcion 101
that sounds like him.Someone once posted a Marcionist sentiment on Fr. Andrew S. Damick’s blog, to which Fr. Andrew replied “How’s the shipping business these days?”
Precisely. The Holy Trinity, hypostatic union, humouseos understanding of God, monarchy of the Father, the Creeds weren’t “invented” at Councils….only spelled out more formally and clarified for the sake of stopping heretical detours made by evil men. Nothing new.Doctrine does not develop, it is only defended. It is incredible hubris to suggest that we have a deeper understanding of the faith today than the Apostles who sat at Jesus' feet.
The Ecumenical Councils stood in defence of the faith once handed down by the Apostles, against heresy which was tearing people away from the Body of Christ. They stand in stark contrast to the subsequent Councils held by Rome after the schism.
exactly. everything is done to receive, preserve, and pass on that initial experience of the Apostles without addition, subtraction, or distortion.Precisely. The Holy Trinity, hypostatic union, humouseos understanding of God, monarchy of the Father, the Creeds weren’t “invented” at Councils….only spelled out more formally and clarified for the sake of stopping heretical detours made by evil men. Nothing new.
Yep. Ultra-conservative Orthodox twist themselves into knots to avoid these truths. Fr. Lattier provides a more reasonable approach.The Councils of Nicaea, Ephesus, and Chalcedon, did indeed defend the faith against heresies, yet they also clarified and developed the Church's understanding of central doctrines, such as the nature of Christ and the Trinity (such as the precise terminology of homoousios), this is not a new revelation after Pentecost, rather the allowance of clarity on a certain subject which is causing strife within the Church.
Precisely. The Holy Trinity, hypostatic union, humouseos understanding of God, monarchy of the Father, the Creeds weren’t “invented” at Councils….only spelled out more formally and clarified for the sake of stopping heretical detours made by evil men. Nothing new.
not sure who you’re talking about here. like I said a while back, I went to school with Fr Daniel and he isn’t arguing for what is being argued here.Yep. Ultra-conservative Orthodox twist themselves into knots to avoid these truths. Fr. Lattier provides a more reasonable approach.
First you said that doctrine does not develop, then I gave an article from an Orthodox priest arguing that it does and that Newman's theory is acceptable for Orthodox. Then you said that you agree with him, even though it was fairly clear that you had not read the article. Then you claimed—on pure assertion—that the article is somehow being misconstrued or misapplied (pray tell - how?). And now you claim that the article may have been written when he was a Catholic, so it doesn't count.plus, the article I believe is from when he was still Roman Catholic
I just was thinking about this and spoke to someone about this, how are we to understand our history if a council is right one day, then wrong the next...dissenters wrong one day, right the next? Do bishops even matter? Like, all bishops agreed at Lyon but a few dissenting clerics did not agree, and thus, essentially, mob-usurped and determined doctrine. What's the point of bishops at a Council if some dissenting clerics are to revoke the council's governing power? It just seems to me like doctrinal anarchy / survival of the fittest. I try to prove points with universally approved catechisms of the east (when I quoted Mohyla's Catechism which taught purgatory), all approved by each patriarchate, but folks reject it because universal approval of a doctrine does not matter, it only matters when it is the doctrine they want to promulgate and push (such as when you said "you claimed—on pure assertion—that the article is somehow being misconstrued or misapplied"). It seems like a echo-chamber to me.First you said that doctrine does not develop, then I gave an article from an Orthodox priest arguing that it does and that Newman's theory is acceptable for Orthodox. Then you said that you agree with him, even though it was fairly clear that you had not read the article. Then you claimed—on pure assertion—that the article is somehow being misconstrued or misapplied (pray tell - how?). And now you claim that the article may have been written when he was a Catholic, so it doesn't count.
You seem to be throwing things at the wall and hoping something sticks.
Here is the obvious truth:
Pretty much everyone accepts that truth. There are a few Orthodox who try to deny it, thus tying themselves up in knots. The program of these Orthodox is this, "We must find a way to define 'development' so that we can have our cake and eat it, too."
- "The councils represent development of doctrine."
There are some whose bias precludes argument. On these subjects I would recommend the Orthodox priest, Fr. Thomas Hopko, who gives clear and consistent positions, is clear about when he is citing dogmas and when he is citing his own opinion, and who is very firm in opposing Orthodox confirmation bias.Like how am I supposed to argue for reunification when confirmation bias is so prevalent?
I have read some of Hopko, though I enjoy Ware more, as he is not immediate resistant to Roman reunification, and considers it in his work. I really look to the work of Zoghby, Mohyla and Likoudis, who (though they have their own faults) do summarize the Orthodox-Catholic Unification position well.There are some whose bias precludes argument. On these subjects I would recommend the Orthodox priest, Fr. Thomas Hopko, who gives clear and consistent positions, is clear about when he is citing dogmas and when he is citing his own opinion, and who is very firm in opposing Orthodox confirmation bias.
Sad, but it is not everyone, I know some really nice Orthodox people, on CF as well, who do consider reunification and give it a chance, however they are quiet compared to the loud rejectionists.Hopko tells stories of Orthodox who would tell him that even if Catholics recanted of their "errors" they would still refuse reunification with Catholicism, because it is contrary to Orthodoxy to worship with Catholics. More than any other Christian group, Orthodoxy is known for this kind of factionalism and stubbornness - which is not to say that all Orthodox fall into this camp. It is almost certainly a minority.
Exactly what I stated above! I hope to be one that can be in that middle-ground. I wish there was an Orthodox-Catholic Uniate faith tag on CF, as I see that the reformed denominations have one each, yet set amongst Orthodox and Catholics there is no "in-the-middle" tag that will not be misinterpreted as something outside of Orthodox-Catholic intercommunion (like "Apostolic"). Maybe I'm missing a tag or two?On forums like CF the denominational groups tend to be very conservative (e.g. Orthodox, Catholics, Lutherans...). I think this is because a progressive culture drives them to found pockets of resistance online, with like-minded individuals. But for this reason what you find on CF is not exactly representative of what you find in the real world.
then I gave an article from an Orthodox priest arguing that it does and that Newman's theory is acceptable for Orthodox.
no, I did read it a bit ago when you first posted it, not when you posted it again. earlier today it was just a quick glance.Then you said that you agree with him, even though it was fairly clear that you had not read the article.
right, because old conversations I had with him came back to my memory when I followed the link again.And now you claim that the article may have been written when he was a Catholic, so it doesn't count.
not where I went to school. I agree that things have developed. I disagree with you on what developed.Here is the obvious truth:
- "The councils represent development of doctrine."
unless you read St JustinianThe idea that something like the Council of Chalcedon (which was rejected by the Oriental Orthodox) represents no development from what was accepted beforehand is clearly false.
I would more so be inclined to say that 'development' is a misleading word, rather 'clarification' I think would fit there.unless you read St Justinian
That's fair. My sense is that Hopko receives a hearing among conservatives in a way that Ware does not, but I take your point.I have read some of Hopko, though I enjoy Ware more, as he is not immediate resistant to Roman reunification, and considers it in his work.
As far as I know, "Eastern Catholic," or, "Melkite," would be the closest thing to a group working for reunification.Exactly what I stated above! I hope to be one that can be in that middle-ground. I wish there was an Orthodox-Catholic Uniate faith tag on CF, as I see that the reformed denominations have one each, yet set amongst Orthodox and Catholics there is no "in-the-middle" tag that will not be misinterpreted as something outside of Orthodox-Catholic intercommunion (like "Apostolic"). Maybe I'm missing a tag or two?
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