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Respectful Question on Doctrinal Development

prodromos

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Papal infallibility rests on the seal of Sts. Peter and Paul, so where both reposed is important to the basis of the declaration itself.
Rome was held in honour because of the martyrdom of Peter and Paul there, but the Catholic Church has built the theology of Papal infallibility on Peter alone, with Paul being swept under the rug, because they could not build a theological argument from Paul. Read what your Catechism says about Papal supremacy and infallibility. You will find no mention of Paul anywhere.
 
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AveChristusRex

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Rome was held in honour because of the martyrdom of Peter and Paul there, but the Catholic Church has built the theology of Papal infallibility on Peter alone, with Paul being swept under the rug, because they could not build a theological argument from Paul. Read what your Catechism says about Papal supremacy and infallibility. You will find no mention of Paul anywhere.
From the Catholic Encyclopedia on 'Theological Definition,' used by Pius IX when he solemnly defined the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin: "By the authority of Our Lord Jesus Christ and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by Our own authority, We declare, pronounce and define the doctrine […] to be revealed by God and as such to be firmly and immutably held by all the faithful..." However you are correct in saying that infallibility rests on Peter, as only his faith was promised to be perfect and protected by God; the Vatican Council (Sess. iv, cap. iv) solemnly taught the doctrine of papal infallibility in the following terms: "The Roman Pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedrâ, that is to say, when in the exercise of his office of pastor and teacher of all Christians he, in virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, defines that a doctrine on faith or morals is to be held by the whole Church, by the assistance of God promised to him in the person of Blessed Peter, has that infallibility with which it was the will of Our Divine Redeemer that His Church should be furnished in defining a doctrine on faith or morals."

Yes, Paul has nothing to do with infallibility, but many pronunciations are made with the words "of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul" in their definitions of consequence.
 
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prodromos

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Papal infallibility rests on the seal of Sts. Peter and Paul, so where both reposed is important to the basis of the declaration itself.

Yes, Paul has nothing to do with infallibility, but many pronunciations are made with the words "of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul" in their definitions of consequence.
:doh:
 
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ArmyMatt

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Well, to be fair, who are we to say that they respected Justinian, and thus acted on their respect and fear of reprisal?
that does not answer why they stood firm against other emperors, schismatics, and pagans, but got weak when it came Justinian.
Papal infallibility rests on the seal of Sts. Peter and Paul, so where both reposed is important to the basis of the declaration itself.
given to St Peter alone, but rests with Sts Peter and Paul. that doesn’t make sense.
Well, according to Patriarch Maximus of Antioch, which is in defense of St. Flavian: “Archbishop Flavian, of holy memory, expounded the faith rightly and in agreement with the most blessed and holy Archbishop Leo, and we all eagerly receive it” (Session 1, NPNF). Cecropius, Bishop of Sebastopol had spoken in the Session, “The Eutychian matter has sprung up; on this a form [ordinance] has been given by the most holy Archbishop Leo, and we go by it, and have all subscribed the letter“, to which the Bishops shouted, “That we also say, the explanation already given by Leo suffices; another declaration of faith must not be put forth” (Mansi vi, 954, source). Bishop Florentius of Sardes also said: “As those who have been taught to follow the Nicene synod, and also the regularly and piously assembled Synod at Ephesus, in accordance with the faith of the holy fathers Cyril and Celestine, and also with the letter of the most holy Leo, cannot possibly draw up at once a formula of the faith, we therefore ask for a longer delay; but I, for my part, believe the letter of Leo is sufficient.

Bp. Dom Christopher Butler, OSB also says in response: “I would reply, the Church will naturally encourage her children to ‘examine the grounds’. She will do for the obvious reason that any Catholic may be asked by a non-Catholic enquirer to ‘give account’ of his faith; and for the non-Catholic the ‘grounds’ are of great importance. But she will do so also because faith ordinarily requires, for its bene esse, an instructed reason and an understanding which mere assent is not calculated to engender.” In like mind, the Illyrian bishops did not review out of premise, they in fact interrupted the speaking of the Tome itself: “The letters of Cyril were greeted, predictably, with acclamations of unanimous approval, but the Illyrian and Palestinian Bishops who had supported Dioscorus in the first session interuppted the reading of the Tome with objections to several passages, a remarkable discourtesy towards a document that MOST OF THE BISHOPS, in all probability, had already signed” (Acts of Chalcedon, Pg. 4). Also note that in his letter to the Pope, the new Emperor Marcian mentions that things which “conduce to the Catholic faith shall be laid down as your holiness, in accordance with the canons of the Church, has ruled [Latin of the final portion: sua dispositione declarent; the verb "declarent" (they declare) refers to the bishops making the faith of the Church evident through their affirmation].“ (Epistle 76). This “ruling” was the Tome.

One thing to note on the previous point is that, as stated, the verb "declarent" (they declare) refers to the bishops making the faith of the Church evident through their affirmation, this is shown in Acts Vol 2, p. 10: “Cecropius the most devout bishop of Sebastopolis in Armenia said: ‘The letter of the most holy Leo archbishop of Rome accords with the definition of the 318 and the definition of the 150 holy fathers, and with the assent expressed by the holy and thrice-blessed Cyril earlier at Ephesus and confirmed by the [present] holy council. We have agreed with them and signed’” (Session IV. Vol 2, p. 133). It was confirmed by the Council, but had been accepted previously. Note also that this was not done willingly by the bishops; it truly was done because the imperial commission required the bishops to get up and acclaim whether the Tome was harmonious with Nicaea and Cyril.

Moreover, wrapping up the question of faith in the 4th session, the Imperial Commissioners asked the Council bishops to express its mind. Papal legate Paschasinus answered on behalf of all saying: “The rule of faith as contained in the creed of Nicaea, confirmed by the Council of Constantinople, expounded at Ephesus under Cyril, and set forth in the letter of Pope Leo when he condemned the heresy of Nestorius and Eutyches” (Mansi vii, 9A-B). Answers from others came likewise. Anatolius of Constantinople answered: “The letter of Leo is in harmony with the [Nicene Creed] as well as with what was done at Ephesus under Cyril” and the Papal legates said: “It is plain that the faith of Leo is in harmony with the Creed, and with the Ephesian definitions, and therefore his letter is of the same sense as the Creed“ (12A). Finally, this is what Leo says about that whole debacle in his epistle to Theodoret: “For lest the assent of other Sees to that which the Lord of all has appointed to take precedence of the rest might seem mere complaisance, or lest any other evil suspicion might creep in, some were found to dispute our decisions before they were finally accepted. And while some, instigated by the author of the disagreement, rush forward into a warfare of contradictions, a greater good results through his fall under the guiding hand of the Author of all goodness” (Epistle 120).
of course there were those who accepted the Tome outright, just like there were those who rejected it outright. even in your own post you say St Cyril’s writings were greeted well, but when St Leo’s was read some interrupted. which means St Cyril was the basis for the Synod.

and again, you’re arguing this is an example of Papal infallibility which is above any council of bishops. so once St Leo issues the Tome, that’s the only thing that matters, and yet there is still nothing that shows anyone making the case for infallibility.
So, am I outside of the Orthodox faith?
yes.
What is it then?
that the Father and the Son form the single principle from which the Spirit proceeds.
His acceptance of the Council was limited to its reconciliatory role.
which means he accepted the council as did some of his successors.
Then I should say more post-"schism" saints.
or just not quote them at all
Are Catholics such as I excommunicated?
yes.
Also, you are Russian Orthodox (OCA), correct?
OCA, not Russian.
 
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AveChristusRex

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Papal infallibility is rooted in the unique authority given to St. Peter by Christ; However, the dual invocation represents the unity and foundation of the Roman See. Apologies if I misspoke.
 
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AveChristusRex

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that does not answer why they stood firm against other emperors, schismatics, and pagans, but got weak when it came Justinian.
The position they held was in jeopardy, the bishopric itself.
given to St Peter alone, but rests with Sts Peter and Paul. that doesn’t make sense.
Papal infallibility is rooted in the unique authority given to St. Peter by Christ; However, the dual invocation represents the unity and foundation of the Roman See. Apologies if I misspoke.
of course there were those who accepted the Tome outright, just like there were those who rejected it outright. even in your own post you say St Cyril’s writings were greeted well, but when St Leo’s was read some interrupted. which means St Cyril was the basis for the Synod.
I personally did not find that meaning in the controversy, as Cyril's writings could not be interrupted at this council since all bishops had previously contended to their points; it would look bad on their position. Leo, however, was in the midst of a controversy with the Illryians, so they would be the first to interrupt any proceeding that could jeopardize their independence.
that the Father and the Son form the single principle from which the Spirit proceeds.
That has been accepted by Orthodox saints in the past.
which means he accepted the council as did some of his successors.
I think we are misunderstanding each other; he only accepted part of the council, not the whole council and all of its theological proceedings, which he had assumed was for the preservation of the East's tradition and not for Rome to adopt.
Don't you think it is of the enemy to say this? The view that Catholics are outside the faith is not shared by your Patriarchate, who met with Catholics, nor those inside of the Patriarchate; this only rests in the OCA, which all Orthodox Patriarchates do not accept nor do they recognize the OCA's autocephaly. There are others in this forum, such as The Liturgist, who [to my knowledge] don't hold this belief. This idea that Catholics are not Orthodox is a minority belief, which you are able to hold and is totally acceptable, but those in Orthodoxy do not accept this interpretation.
 
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ArmyMatt

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The position they held was in jeopardy, the bishopric itself.
just like with the schismatics and heretics, but somehow not Justinian.
Papal infallibility is rooted in the unique authority given to St. Peter by Christ; However, the dual invocation represents the unity and foundation of the Roman See. Apologies if I misspoke.
so St Paul has nothing to do with infallibility.
I personally did not find that meaning in the controversy, as Cyril's writings could not be interrupted at this council since all bishops had previously contended to their points; it would look bad on their position. Leo, however, was in the midst of a controversy with the Illryians, so they would be the first to interrupt any proceeding that could jeopardize their independence.
they absolutely were the basis since there were bishops there who rejected St Cyril and it was his writings that they had to accept in addition to the Tome such as Theodoret and Ibas.
That has been accepted by Orthodox saints in the past.
incorrect. procession through and procession from do not mean both from a single principle. the single principle is the Father. not the Father and the Son,
I think we are misunderstanding each other; he only accepted part of the council, not the whole council and all of its theological proceedings, which he had assumed was for the preservation of the East's tradition and not for Rome to adopt.
absolutely not since the whole council was that the Filioque was heresy.
Don't you think it is of the enemy to say this? The view that Catholics are outside the faith is not shared by your Patriarchate, who met with Catholics, nor those inside of the Patriarchate; this only rests in the OCA, which all Orthodox Patriarchates do not accept nor do they recognize the OCA's autocephaly. There are others in this forum, such as The Liturgist, who [to my knowledge] don't hold this belief. This idea that Catholics are not Orthodox is a minority belief, which you are able to hold and is totally acceptable, but those in Orthodoxy do not accept this interpretation.
no I don’t think it’s from the enemy. and the Metropolitan (not Patriarch) is my bishop, and he absolutely believes that Rome is outside of the Church.

we meet with heretics and schismatics all the time, and we still view them as such.
 
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AveChristusRex

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just like with the schismatics and heretics, but somehow not Justinian.
If you wish to believe that. I have shown you evidence, but I don't think it will get anywhere.
so St Paul has nothing to do with infallibility.
Correct! :heart:
they absolutely were the basis since there were bishops there who rejected St Cyril and it was his writings that they had to accept in addition to the Tome such as Theodoret and Ibas.
Please give a specific source and quote, as I feel I have done a lot of the heavy lifting in this discussion regarding quotations and sources.
incorrect. procession through and procession from do not mean both from a single principle. the single principle is the Father. not the Father and the Son,
So no Orthodox Saint has ever posited the single principle? Not even Bl. Augustine, or St. Petro Mohyla?
absolutely not since the whole council was that the Filioque was heresy.
But the Pope did not, and he only picked certain dictations from the council, ignoring others, as is his right.
no I don’t think it’s from the enemy. and the Metropolitan (not Patriarch) is my bishop, and he absolutely believes that Rome is outside of the Church.

we meet with heretics and schismatics all the time, and we still view them as such.
The OCA is more of a radical sect of Orthodoxy than an actual bishopric in my view, as some have pointed out within Orthodox itself. Moreover, the OCA does not speak for 90% of Orthodoxy, and moreover Orthodoxy does not depend on a fanatic bishopric to decide its doctrine, therefore if the doctrine speaks to the matter of the absence of schism, then it is so. As such, Bartholomew has done a fantastic job during his time as Patriarch, continuing the reunion process of Athenagoras.

God bless! :heart:
 
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ArmyMatt

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If you wish to believe that. I have shown you evidence, but I don't think it will get anywhere.
you actually have not. you have just said that various threats from St Justinian were somehow more frightening than from heretical emperors.
Please give a specific source and quote, as I feel I have done a lot of the heavy lifting in this discussion regarding quotations and sources.
I gave you two bishops who were at Chalcedon who rejected St Cyril.
So no Orthodox Saint has ever posited the single principle? Not even Bl. Augustine, or St. Petro Mohyla?
individual saints can be wrong. Orthodoxy works by consensus.
But the Pope did not, and he only picked certain dictations from the council, ignoring others, as is his right.
sure, the Pope allowed the East to deem the West as heretical for unity.
The OCA is more of a radical sect of Orthodoxy than an actual bishopric in my view, as some have pointed out within Orthodox itself. Moreover, the OCA does not speak for 90% of Orthodoxy, and moreover Orthodoxy does not depend on a fanatic bishopric to decide its doctrine, therefore if the doctrine speaks to the matter of the absence of schism, then it is so. As such, Bartholomew has done a fantastic job during his time as Patriarch, continuing the reunion process of Athenagoras.
it’s not just the OCA. Russia, ROCOR, Antioch, Bulgaria, Georgia, Romania, etc all view Rome the way we do. many in Greece and under His All Holiness also view Rome as heretical. we’re not some radical sect. most of the issues in Orthodoxy are how to evangelize Rome to get them to turn from their heresy, not that they are heretical. most of Orthodoxy views Rome as heretical.

you really need to understand us before you assert stuff about us.
 
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AveChristusRex

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it’s not just the OCA. Russia, ROCOR, Antioch, Bulgaria, Georgia, Romania, etc all view Rome the way we do. many in Greece and under His All Holiness also view Rome as heretical. we’re not some radical sect. most of the issues in Orthodoxy are how to evangelize Rome to get them to turn from their heresy, not that they are heretical. most of Orthodoxy views Rome as heretical.

you really need to understand us before you assert stuff about us.
So, in your mind, Orthodoxy and Catholicism are incompatible? It is either 1/2 of Christianity is saved, or the other 1/2? The Liturgist, many blessings! :heart: Do you concur that Rome is inherently heretical? I know you have said in the past that you are a supporter of other traditional liturgical churches outside of the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox community, is this the consensus within Orthodoxy as Matt posits?
 
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ArmyMatt

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ArmyMatt

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Then let it be so.
we do, that’s not what we’re talking about. it’s entirely possible that every condemned heretic is ultimately saved. that doesn’t change that what they profess about God in this life is heretical.
 
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AveChristusRex

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we do, that’s not what we’re talking about. it’s entirely possible that every condemned heretic is ultimately saved. that doesn’t change that what they profess about God in this life is heretical.
I think the great scholar of our time Dr. David Bentley Hart stated this well: "I ask this, because, the most intransigent and extreme members of our respective communions—and those, I fear, who in the East are usually at present the most impassioned and obstreperous among us—seem often incapable or unwilling to acknowledge any recognizable distinction between substantial and accidental differences, between real and imagined difficulties, between obvious and merely suppositious theological issues, and between matters of negligible import and those that lie at the heart of our division. As regards my own communion, I must reluctantly report that there are some Eastern Christians who have become incapable of defining what it is to be Orthodox except in contradistinction to Roman Catholicism; and among these are a small but voluble number who have (I sometimes suspect) lost any rationale for their Orthodoxy other than their profound hatred, deranged terror, and encyclopaedic ignorance of Rome. For such as these, there can never be any limit set to the number of grievances that need to be cited against Rome, nor any act of contrition on the part of Rome sufficient for absolution."

He moreover states: "When a certain kind of Greek Orthodox anti-papal demagogue claims that the Eastern Church has always rejected the validity of the sacraments of the ‘Latin schismatics’, or that that the real church schism dates back to the eighth century when the Orthodox Church became estranged from the Roman over the latter’s ‘rejection’ of the (14th-century) distinction between God’s essence and energies, the historically literate among us should recognize that what he takes to be apostolic Orthodoxy is in fact based upon ecclesiological and sacramental principles that reach back only to 1755, and upon principles of theological interpretation first enunciated in 1942, and upon an interpretation of ecclesiastical history that dates from whenever the prescriptions for his medications expired.” On the matter of the eastern radicals and phyletists, Hart declares the primordial predicament to be the ‘acute manifestation of a chronic pathology’ by which clouds their judgement and prevents the fullness of union to be actualized, saying: "I do not believe that, before the middle of the 20th century, claims were ever made regarding the nature of the division as radical as those one finds not only in the works of inane agitators like the altogether absurd and execrable John Romanides, but also in the works of theologians of genuine stature, such as Dumitru Staniloae, Vladimir Lossky, or John Zizioulas in the East or Erich Przywara or Hans Urs von Balthasar in the West; and until those claims are defeated—as well they should be, as they are without exception entirely fanciful—we cannot reasonably hope for anything but impasse."

He notes that the most damaging consequence of Orthodoxy’s 20th century pilgrimage ad fontes has been an increase in the intensity of Eastern theology’s anti-Western polemic, which I extensively spoke on in my previous work. As Hart states, particularly on the “aforementioned John Romanides, for instance, has produced expositions of the thought of Augustine and Thomas Aquinas that are almost miraculously devoid of one single correct statement; and while this might be comical if such men spoke only for themselves, it becomes tragic when instead they influence the way great numbers of their fellows view other Christians.” He then states: “Since at least the time of Vladimir Lossky it has become something of a fixed idea in modern Orthodox theology that Western theology has traditionally forgotten the biblical truth that the unity of the Trinity flows from the paternal arche and come to believe instead that what constitutes the unity of God is an impersonal divine essence prior to the Trinitarian relations.” He cites Theodore de Regnon’s 1892 work which first suggested a distinction between Western and Eastern styles of Trinitarian theology which was “seized upon, rather opportunistically, by a number of 20th-century theologians, and now we find ourselves in an age in which we are often told that we must choose between ‘Greek’ personalism and ‘Latin’ essentialism.”

Hart then states: “It has become so lamentably common among my fellow Orthodox to treat this claim that Western theology in general posits some ‘impersonal’ divine ground behind the Trinitarian hypostases, and so fails to see the Father as the ‘fountainhead of divinity’, as a simple fact of theological history (and the secret logic of Latin ‘filioquism’) that it seems almost rude to point out that it is quite demonstrably untrue, from the patristic through the medieval periods, with a few insignificant exceptions.” What is important in this quote is what follows: “In fact, I would go so far as to claim that the understanding of the generation of the Son and the procession of the Spirit found in Augustine is not only compatible, but identical, with that of the Cappadocian fathers—including Gregory’s and Basil’s belief that the generation of the Son is directly from the Father, while the procession of the Spirit is from the Father only per Filium (sed, to borrow a phrase, de Patre principaliter).” He observes that both Augustine and Gregory of Nyssa even distinguish generation and procession within the Trinity in terms primarily of the order of cause: that is, both claim that the procession of the Spirit differs from the generation of the Son principally in that the former occurs through the Son. As Gregory writes (in a passage that would fit very well in, say, Book V of Augustine’s De Trinitate): “... while confessing the immutability of the [divine] nature, we do not deny difference in regard to cause and that which is caused, by which alone we discern the difference of each Person from the other, in that we believe one to be the cause and another to be from the cause; and again we conceive of another difference within that which is from the cause: between the one who, on the one hand, comes directly from the principle and the one who, on the other, comes from the principle through the one who arises directly; thus it unquestionably remains peculiar to the Son to be the Only Begotten, while at the same time it is not to be doubted that the Spirit is of the Father, by virtue of the mediation of the Son that safeguards the Son’s character as Only Begotten, and thus the Spirit is not excluded from his natural relation to the Father.”

This is the very argument—made by Augustine in De Trinitate—that scores of Orthodox theologians in recent decades have denounced as entirely alien to Eastern tradition. This is extremely important in the coagulation of St. Petro Mohyla’s work with the Cappadocian Fathers and general Orthodoxy: “The Latins proceeded with wisdom, demonstrating that there was controversy between the Greeks and Latins only on the primacy [seeing that they had not imposed on the Greeks the insertion of the clause a Filio [from the Son] in the Symbol [the Creed], and that this clause [being admitted on the theological plane], the Romans requested only its avowal and not its addition to the Creed.” Hart then goes on to state that, since the time of Lossky, various modern Orthodox theologians have adopted an exaggerated ‘Photianism’ and have, in their assault on ‘filioquism’, argued that—though, within the economy of salvation, the Spirit is breathed out by Christ upon the apostles—the Trinitarian relations as revealed in the economy of salvation are distinct from the eternal relations of the immanent Trinity. Hart states on this topic: “This [view] is theologically disastrous, and in fact subversive of the entire Eastern patristic tradition of Trinitarian dogma. Were this claim sound, there would be absolutely no basis for Trinitarian theology at all; the arguments by which the Cappadocians defended full Trinitarian theology against Arian and Eunomian thought—in works like Basil’s De Spiritu Sancto and Gregory’s Adversus Macedonianos—would entirely fail. Orthodoxy would have no basis whatsoever.” Hart suggests that whatever differences may exist between the two traditions, “none of them is of any appreciable magnitude, and even if they were they would still constitute only differences between theologoumena, not between dogmata.” Hart blames this on “some desire to rationalize and deepen the division between the churches, the sheer speculative plasticity of theological reflection and language allows for an endless multiplication of ever newer ‘ancient’ differences.”

Later in his thesis, he states on the matter of the filioque: “Indeed, were this simply a matter of theology, my impulse would be to defend the clause, so long as it is understood to mean that the Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son (the Father being, as scripture clearly reveals, the soul wellspring of Godhead), because I believe that that is the authentic Eastern teaching as well, and the only teaching that can at once be made congruent with the evidence of scripture and the logic of Orthodox theological tradition.” He states that not everyone in the east agrees, such as Vladimir Lossky and others who have argued the opposite; but Hart find their arguments not only unpersuasive, but historically absurd and theologically catastrophic. I agree.

(1/2)
 
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AveChristusRex

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Next, on the matter of doctrine, Hart states: “Doctrine presents us with another kind of obstacle, at once more concrete and more minimal in form. These differences, once one puts aside purely tendentious attempts to magnify or multiply the doctrinal divergences of the two traditions, are very few indeed, easily identified, and in some cases easily resolved (if there is a will to do so).” He then speaks on the two modern Marian dogmas—the Assumption of Mary and the Immaculate Conception, which he states “the first is obviously perfectly in accord (though too vague to be identical) with the story that the Orthodox Church celebrates every Feast of the Dormition.” However, on the matter of the Immaculate Conception, he gives two points:
  1. Theological differences are not doctrinal differences, and…
  2. The doctrine is again stated with such chaste minimalism that it is an error to imagine that any particular historically conditioned understanding of original sin must necessarily attach to it.
I find this second point particularly important, as he states that it is an error to “imagine that any particular historically conditioned understanding of original sin must necessarily attach to it,” which is absolutely correct. Historically, at Mohyla’s college, he tried to counter the tremendous influence of the Jesuit scholastic tradition by having his Orthodox students study in Catholic countries, notably Paris. These students brought a number of Latin traditions home with them, including the devotion to the Virgin Mary, where they took the 'bloody vow' to defend to the death the Immaculate Conception, wore a medal similar to today's Miraculous Medal and prayed "All-Immaculate Theotokos, save us!" Therefore, this Orthodox promulgation of the Immaculate Conception is not new, at least not to the Ruthenians. However, on this point he states that substance of such doctrines that must remain issues of contention between us, but simply the question of whether there was ever sufficient authority to promulgate them in the first place, that being Papal Infallibility: the crux of the “schism.” While I have had my fair share of experiences in this field, Hart summarizes it well in stating: “I have among my Roman Catholic theologian friends, especially those who have had little direct dealings with Eastern Christianity, some who are justifiably offended by the hostility with which the advances of the Roman Church are occasionally met by certain Orthodox, and who assume that the greatest obstacle to reunion of the churches is Eastern immaturity and divisiveness.” The east is quite hostile when it comes to this particular subject, which I again believe it to be the desire to rationalize and deepen the division between the churches.

He says on this point that “a Catholic who looks eastward should find nothing to which to object, because what he sees is the Church of the Seven Oecumenical Councils (but—here’s the rub—for him, this means the first seven of twenty-one, at least according to the definition of Oecumenical Council bequeathed the Roman Church by Robert Bellarmine).” What great words! I agree 100%! However, Hart states in regards to the East: “When an Orthodox Christian turns his eyes westward, however, he sees many elements that appear novel to him: the filioque clause, the way in which papal primacy is articulated, Purgatory, etc. Our divisions do truly concern doctrine, and this problem admits of no immediately obvious remedy, because both churches are so fearfully burdened by infallibility. And we need to appreciate that this creates an essential asymmetry in the Orthodox and Catholic approaches to the ecumenical enterprise.” He well articulates the matter, correct referring to our position: “No Catholic properly conscious of the teachings of his Church would be alarmed by what the Orthodox Church would bring into his communion—he would find it sound and familiar, and would not therefore suspect for a moment that reunion had in any way compromised or diluted his Catholicism.” This is exactly my position, as there is nothing that this “schism” has promulgated to disallow the process of intercommunion. However, on the east’s side: “But to an Orthodox Christian, inasmuch as the Roman Church does make doctrinal assertions absent from his tradition, it may well seem that to accept reunion with Rome would mean becoming a Roman Catholic, and so ceasing to be Orthodox.” This is, as we know, a flawed mentality, but it is so prevalent that is has become the consensus; as some have said: “If evil can control the narrative long enough... it becomes tradition.” Hart states that it would be unreasonable to expect the Eastern and Western churches to approach ecumenism from the same vantage; to which I agree.

On this point, he points to Purgatory, being a predominantly western tradition, as a hiccup, saying: “It may seem somewhat counterintuitive to place this issue alongside something of such enormous consequence as the filioque clause; but here I think is one area where Roman doctrinal pronouncements have not been as marked as one might wish by that formulary minimalism I praised above.” He states that the Eastern church believes in sanctification after death, which perhaps the doctrine of Purgatory really asserts nothing more than that; however Rome has also traditionally spoken of it as ‘temporal punishment’, which the pope may in whole or part remit. The problem here is it is difficult, from the Orthodox perspective, to see how it could be both. Once again, St. Petro Mohyla solves this issue, saying: “Contrariwise, today, our Ruthenians who are well instructed, have the conviction that anyone who denied the adoration due the Holy Sacrament (either in the Roman Church or in theirs) or who would not acknowledge the invocation of the saints and their glory, the particular judgment, prayers and suffrages for the dead and, consequently, purgatory would be a heretic and not a Ruthenian.” Mohyla does not believe it to be an issue, and if it is, it is an issue that can be easily repaired. Hart states one a very good point on the nature of the Church here: “Obviously Rome denies that the pontiff could generate doctrine out of personal whim. And, after all, clearly it is true that no doctrine could possibly follow from the consensus of the church, if for no other reason than that the church is not democracy, and truth is not something upon which we vote.” There is, though, one final ecclesiological issue that it seems to me should be raised, and that rarely is, and that bears directly upon the way in which the matter of papal jurisdiction is phrased in Ut Unum Sint: “It is no great secret that the popular picture of the division between East and West—the myth, that is, of a sudden definitive catastrophic breach between the churches that immediately created two distinct communions—bears little relation to history.”

He makes a point to say that even after the excommunications of 1054, both Rome and Constantinople were—as far as anyone could tell—in communion with the Patriarchate of Antioch. It was only in the 18th century that denigrations of the orders or sacraments of the respective ‘other’ church became part of theological discourse; and those who still cling to this view of a hermetically sealed sacramental order—Orthodox or Catholic—over against a now invalid anti-church are in fact not defenders of tradition, but rank modernists: “Chrysostom Frank published an article some years ago that laid out quite compactly, but with a wealth of detail, how porous (or, in some cases, nonexistent) were the partitions between the churches for centuries after the excommunications of 1054. Communicatio in sacris between Orthodox and Catholics, Frank notes, continued in some places till the 17th century.” He then speaks on the Council of Florence, which we very much know was the Council that reunited the Churches. This is a mentality that Hart shares, as he states that “both sides spoke of the division between East and West as a wall of separation erected within the one Catholic Church.“In various reaches of the Ottoman Empire, Frank observes, great numbers of Orthodox and Catholic believers—among the clergy no less than among the laity—proceeded as if there were no division. Latin missionaries were even known to regard the local Orthodox bishop as their ordinary, and Catholic priests were allowed to preach in Orthodox churches, catechize, hear confessions, and even on occasion administer the Eucharist.” Eastern Christians did not hesitate to show their reverence for the Catholic sacrament at corpus Christi processions, and on the Island of Andros the Orthodox bishop and his clergy—fully vested and bearing candles—participated in the procession itself. “In the 17th century, Frank shows, there were abundant signs of cordiality between the communions: a former Athonite abbot in 1628 asking Rome to open a school on the Holy Mountain, the Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch in 1644 inviting the Jesuits to open a house in Damascus, the Metropolitan of Aegina in 1690 petitioning the pope for Jesuits to undertake pastoral work in his diocese. And then, Frank sadly observes, in the 18th century both churches hardened in their positions, and soon this history of accord was forgotten.”

However, Hart notes that even in the modern period, an absolute division between the two communions has ever existed. “Under communist rule in Russia, for instance, Orthodox and Catholic communicants sometimes received from the same chalice, with tacit episcopal consent, and there are parts of Syria and Lebanon today where this fluidity of boundaries is an open secret and intercommunion a simple fact of life. In fact, I know of two Syrian parishes in the United States that have passed from the jurisdiction of an Orthodox to a Catholic bishop or in the opposite direction where communicants who consider themselves either Catholic or Orthodox belong to one church and one altar. To put it simply, there has never been a time when a perfect and impermeable wall has stood between the sacramental orders of East and West.”

What do you think of these points coming from an Eastern Orthodox Christian who has correspondence with the EP himself? I had to abridge a lot of it so I found pinpoint the points I think were important, for the full thing, read his fantastic thesis here: https://www.clarion-journal.com/cla...06/the-myth-of-schism-david-bentley-hart.html

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AveChristusRex

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What do you think of these points coming from an Eastern Orthodox Christian who has correspondence with the EP himself? I had to abridge a lot of it so I found pinpoint the points I think were important, for the full thing, read his fantastic thesis here: https://www.clarion-journal.com/cla...06/the-myth-of-schism-david-bentley-hart.html

(2/2)
These are not my points, these are Hart's points, but I want to hear what you have to say on these points as I 100% agree with Hart on this.
 
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ArmyMatt

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These are not my points, these are Hart's points, but I want to hear what you have to say on these points as I 100% agree with Hart on this.
Hart is a universalist and marcionite, who dismisses anyone that disagrees with him to include the Fathers as being stupid or immoral.

his translation of the NT was laughable (one of my Scripture professors dissected it with fellow Coptic, Greek, and Antiochian students).

very few Orthodox take him seriously, and he might not even commune regularly anymore, which means he doesn’t speak for us at all. none of the major seminaries teach his stuff. in fact, when I did OISM with other seminaries, he was one who everyone said to avoid.
 
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ArmyMatt

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put another way, in his book That They All Shall be Saved, he says that the God of the OT is not the Father of Christ, but actually a pagan storm god. that means he fundamentally disagrees with every Ecumenical Council since Constantinople I.

Nestorians aren’t even that bad.
 
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AveChristusRex

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Hart is a universalist and marcionite, who dismisses anyone that disagrees with him to include the Fathers as being stupid or immoral.

his translation of the NT was laughable (one of my Scripture professors dissected it with fellow Coptic, Greek, and Antiochian students).

very few Orthodox take him seriously, and he might not even commune regularly anymore, which means he doesn’t speak for us at all. none of the major seminaries teach his stuff. in fact, when I did OISM with other seminaries, he was one who everyone said to avoid.
The point was that he is able to preach his theology and is still in the confines of the Orthodox Church; in fact in 2017, Hart served on a special commission of Orthodox theologians for Patriarch Bartholomew to help compose "For the Life of the World: Toward a Social Ethos of the Orthodox Church" and to coauthor the preface. Along with that, in February 2022, the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America (in collaboration with the Orthodox Christian Studies Center of Fordham University) invited Hart to deliver a public homily. Not only that but your own OCA Archbishop Alexander Golitzin recorded a public interview on January 14, 2022, in which he named Hart's book That All Shall Be Saved and said that it "draws upon some very prominent and worthy and holy teachers" in the early church who held that the "love of God will ultimately overcome the capacity of the creature to say no to God."
 
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