Respect

[Tzaousios]

Is that why you are reluctant to answer the questions? Do you recognize these traits in Christians, but you want to avoid acknowledging them? Do you think that Christians would say that we are required to respect their beliefs, even if we do not share them? Do you think that Christians would try to force people to respect their beliefs by threatening them with imprisonment or death if they disrespect their God? Would Christians actually do such things?

Interesting. It seems you are beginning to change your tune once again. I thought you were so adamant not to say that modern Christians would take the Old Testament accounts as justification to commit mass killings in their present contexts?

I guess my prediction was correct.

 

[shinbits]

EDIT: nvr mnd

 

[3sigma]

Is that why you are reluctant to answer the questions? Do you recognize these traits in Christians, but you want to avoid acknowledging them? Do you think that Christians would say that we are required to respect their beliefs, even if we do not share them? Do you think that Christians would try to force people to respect their beliefs by threatening them with imprisonment or death if they disrespect their God? Would Christians actually do such things?

Interesting. It seems you are beginning to change your tune once again. I thought you were so adamant not to say that modern Christians would take the Old Testament accounts as justification to commit mass killings in their present contexts?

Of course I’m not suggesting that. Where on Earth on my post did I even imply that or is this just another red herring you are using to avoid answering questions? Please stop evading questions. Please answer the questions in that post and the specific questions in the OP that you've been evading.

 

[Zebra1552]

I think you are clutching at straws to find an excuse not to answer the questions.

I don't much care, seeing as you seemed to have ignored almost all of the rest of my previous reply.

The question “If I demanded that you respect my views…” gave you three options: would you be more inclined to respect them; less inclined; or would it make no difference. What other answer options to that question are possible? Or is it that you think the whole premise is preposterous; that no one would ever demand or try to force people to respect their views?

I already gave you other options that are possible in my last reply:

Why would I assume that your 'other questions' were the 'main questions'. You put 'for example' in front of them! If it's an example, it's not the main thing you're saying.


Your 'preamble' was followed by 'for example'. There was nothing to indicate that anything BUT the preamble was the main question.


As I have told you many times before, I do not answer false dilemmas, or questions that limit my answer to a preset and clearly narrow way of thinking that you propose. I fail to see why I should answer with some preset idea. The topic is about respect, and you asked, "Is respect gained by being demanded or by being earned?" I don't believe it's gained by being demanded OR earned. As I've already demonstrated, I believe it is a choice. If you do not like that answer, tough. Deal with it.


I have already explained why your questions are too limiting: your questions do not include enough options to them. You want me to answer in some preset way, and I believe that there is more to life than your preset answers. Thus, a false dilemma.

Speaking of respect, if you're concerned about it, you might try showing it to those whose opinions you are seeking.

I gave you the answer to the question you asked as to why I will not answer the questions in your OP.

 

[3sigma]

And if the idea can stand up to the examination and be found to be true and reasonable, then by logical deduction, however improbable, it must be so.

And if the claims on which your faith is based cannot stand up to examination and cannot be found to be true and reasonable, what then?

 

[Tzaousios]

And if the claims on which your faith is based cannot stand up to examination and cannot be found to be true and reasonable, what then?

Right, since we must all hold the presupposition that the only valid epistemological stance is one arrived at through empirical science, because atheists demand that it be considered such, and Biblical miracles cannot be recreated in a laboratory by humans instead of God, Christian faith is untrue. Not to mention that the atheist holds the presupposition that God does not exist and the Bible is an evil book going into the "experiment."

I think that, hypothetically speaking, if you were the first atheist and you wanted to examine the claims of the first Christian believer, you would not believe they were true regardless of the outcome of the examination because of the presuppositions you hold.

 

[Maren]

When the discussion is between two Christians, respect is more likely to be shown by both sides without prompting. However, when it is an atheist "discussing" with a Christian, it is usually a one-sided game considering the former's intent and motive.

How was I condescending? It seems you are basing your perception of my attitude upon a preconceived notion of how some Christians act.

Look at this post of yours again:

When the discussion is between two Christians, respect is more likely to be shown by both sides without prompting. However, when it is an atheist "discussing" with a Christian, it is usually a one-sided game considering the former's intent and motive.

The message that people will see is that Christians are "good" and capable of respect but that atheists, at least when "talking at" Christians (with the way "discussion" is in quotes), are incapable of respect. It's a clear message of we are better than they are.

Also, it does not seem that you bothered investigating how I have formed my ideas of the motives of atheists based on the ones I have encountered here at CF. Or, perhaps you might think that atheists such as 3sigma have pure and good intentions and motives and represent the right way in which atheists should conduct themselves.

Umm... I already mentioned there are some atheists here that are disrespectful. Yet just because you have had experience with some disrespectful atheists here does not mean all atheists, even here, are disrespectful.

As for 3sigma, I really don't know his motivation. Now, perhaps I've missed something, but so far I haven't seen 3sigma push an agenda. I've seen a few accusations from Christians claiming that is where he is going but he hasn't taken it there. Now, maybe those Christians are right but, not being God, I can't say what 3sigma's motives are.

Oh? What kind of "little different" motives are these? I would especially like to know if they are more positive and respectful than to criticize the Christian faith as being a fairytale, the God that Christians serve as being a murderous, genocidal, evil being, and to convince Christians to recant their faith as the expected result of any discussion.

Most of the atheists I've seen on this board don't make fun of Christian's faith in that matter, but I freely admit that are a few that do.

Sure, Christianity is merely an element of the superstructure and all of its practioners suffer from false consciousness and cognitive dissonance, right?

I've never stated that, or even wanted to, so please don't put words in my mouth. Though, to be fair, I've seen similar claims made by Christians against atheists here (though again, it is not all Christians here) only they rather gleefully add that the atheists will find out when they go to that hot place after they die.

Like I said earlier, there are probably exceptions to the norm and I am always willing to be pleasantly surprised.

Um... sorry, disrespectful atheists are not the norm. I'm guessing you notice the few that are disrespectful and never notice that the respectful are atheist (since they don't fit your atheist stereotype).

Wow, it seems you had been wanting to get this out there. Do you feel better now?

Not trying to get anything out there. You are the one claiming that atheists are all so disrespectful and Christians are all so respectful. This shows that Christians are often no better. Those are news stories I likely never would have heard of except that I read about them here.

What are some of the positive and respectful motives that atheists have towards discussing faith with Christians that you have come across?

There was one a while back that was study comparative religions in college, that was interested in seeing how a Christian's beliefs effect their faith. Others are here to understand and explain their side about political issues. Not being those atheists, I can't speak ultimately to their motives; I can merely tell you that I've seen them be respectful to people here.

No, the comment is not "way over the top." That is a description that you are using to label my comment in order to make it appear as such.

So if I tried to label all Christians as persecuting gays, you wouldn't find that comment to be "over the top"? And, for the record, I in no way believe this, just trying to give an example that was over the top. Yet that is exactly what you were seemingly doing stating that Christians were in cages to be studied.

In the end, it only shows to whom you are partial. Although there are sites which discuss witnessing, there are also many atheist forums whose main purpose, or at least in which there is a specific venue, to do exactly the things I mentioned.

Difference is, atheists as a general rule do not proselyte, Christians as a general rule do (it is even commanded by Christ). And I'm not even saying their is anything wrong with witnessing sites. Just, again, if you are going to point the fingers at atheists saying the are treating Christans, "various kinds of animals in cages to be studied and dissected"; it doesn't help your point that there are so many Christian sites that attempt to do the same to atheists.

No, I am not projecting my purpose onto atheists. In fact, I have my own ideas about presenting the Gospel which does not include infiltrating atheist forums, legislating morality, and standing on university quads with signs and screaming.

Fine, glad to hear it. Was just what it seemed like, in some ways so I thought I'd see if that is what it was. Of course, I don't know any atheists that are looking to legislate morality (though they may be working for what the see as civil rights) or standing on university quads with signs and screaming.

I agree on this point. It is a wilfull sin that they are accountable for, in my opinion. However, I do not think that an orthodox Christian has to agree with an unorthodox Christian's theology in order to be respectful.

And glad we could agree. I'm am occassionally bothered by how badly a few Christians here treat those they don't think are Christians, even when they identify as such (like Catholics and "liberal" Christians").

 

[3sigma]

Yes, you are right, I should have just assumed the role of the self-depricating Christian and then proceeded to recant my faith. Sorry to displease.

Rest assured, I wouldn’t expect you to recant your faith no matter how many of its claims are unsubstantiated, how many are shown to be false or how little sound evidence there is to support it.