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Respect?

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Braunwyn

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There are many circumstances under which you would be correct in saying a child's wishes wouldn't, or even shouldn't, be respected. I don't think this is one of them though. The impression I'm under is that the boy is old enough to know what he does and doesn't believe. However, he is a minor and must attend the school his parents chose for him. I assume, since his parents chose a Christian school, that they are either 1) Christians and want their child exposed to Christianity even if the child objects or 2) they are not Christian but consider the school to be of high caliber. Either way, the school officials are aware that "Mike" is not Christian. They accepted that fact when they accepted him as a student.
In an ideal world, his education would be the priority and it wouldn't matter that the school is christian. This is a hard one for me because I'm of the mind that christians should be able to do whatever they want, given parents permission, in their institutions.

OTOH, how would we feel if a student, in the beginning or middle of class, decided to get down on all fours to face Mecca? Or hold a short catholic ritual, thereby disrupting the class? I wouldn't be ok with that. Let the kid leave to do his prayers, to not disrupt. By this kid sitting while everyone else is standing, he may be distracting other children. For me, it would be a double standard.

I think Mike needs to talk to a school guidance counsler in order to get in contact with social services. If he's old enough to make such heavy decisions and his parents are forcing it on him, than this might be a case of child abuse.

I do think "Mike" was disrespected by the teacher. This worries me because when young people deserve respect and don't receive it they can then become disrespectful adults. Personally, I want better for our children.
Agreed. This makes sense.
 
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wanderingone

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"Mike" is not a Christian but he attends a Christian school (a decision made for him by his parents). When the teachers and other students stand to pray, "Mike" always remains seated and quiet. Recently, one of the teachers was out for the day and a substitute teacher was brought in. When the class stood to pray, the substitute teacher told "Mike" to stand. "Mike" said no and explained that he is not Christian. The teacher told "Mike" to stand anyway as a gesture of respect. Not wanting to cause trouble "Mike" complied.

As I see it, "Mike" shows more than enough respect by remaining seated and silent during prayers. I also see it as a show of disrespect toward "Mike" to tell him to stand while others speak to a deity he doesn't believe in. Why do so many religious people feel ENTITLED to respect for their beliefs?


What do you think?

~Barbara

I think Mike attends a Christian school and not a public school and generally has to abide by the rules of the school even when they are not in accordance with his personal beliefs. I think in a publicly controlled setting most people should be entitled not to be abused, harassed for or forced to actively behave in a way in opposition to their beliefs, but Mike unfortunately is not in a publicly controlled setting. He's in a parochial school.
 
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OphidiaPhile

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I became an Atheist at a very young age, 10 or 11 IIRC when the concept of God seemed like a fairy tale (which I told the sunday school teacher) and was punished for doing so. I also refused to say "under god" in the pledge of allegiance in public school no less and was punished for doing so.
 
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Washington

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I think Mike attends a Christian school and not a public school and generally has to abide by the rules of the school even when they are not in accordance with his personal beliefs. I think in a publicly controlled setting most people should be entitled not to be abused, harassed for or forced to actively behave in a way in opposition to their beliefs, but Mike unfortunately is not in a publicly controlled setting. He's in a parochial school.
But evidently this was NOT a rule: "When the teachers and other students stand to pray, 'Mike' always remains seated and quiet."
 
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wanderingone

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I became an Atheist at a very young age, 10 or 11 IIRC when the concept of God seemed like a fairy tale (which I told the sunday school teacher) and was punished for doing so. I also refused to say "under god" in the pledge of allegiance in public school no less and was punished for doing so.

Unfortunately this is still an ongoing issue, and post 9/11 new cases of kids being forced to say the pledge popped up all over (since our representatives in some states were wasting time and money trying to pass bills making the pledge mandatory in schools) In general any case of forcing a child to say the pledge that makes it past the complaint to the school administration stage is generally upheld in favor of the person refusing to say the pledge... too bad that doesn't change the fact that it happens.

The pledge is a problem for believers and non believers alike. Those of us who believe placing God in the pledge is offensive to our understanding of our faith are uncomfortable with it, some feel pledging allegience to a flag and country to be making an idol of those things. Non believers end up being forced to acknowledge a God they don't believe in. The socialist experiement with religious dressing should be tossed completely from the public schools.
 
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wanderingone

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But evidently this was NOT a rule: "When the teachers and other students stand to pray, 'Mike' always remains seated and quiet."

I realize that, and that's fine, if the school doesn't require it the substitute was wrong - and Mike handled it well. If the school does require it, and the regular teacher just left him alone then it was a confrontation waiting to happen. I don't consider it a huge deal. If Mike is feeling that he is being emotionally harmed by being forced to attend the school against his will the big deal is with his parents.. not the school. He should request intervention from the authorities.

Personally I think it sounds like it didn't get out of control, Mike seems like a mature kid and handled it well. The teacher sounds ill prepared and lacking skills.

I still think Mike attends a private or parochial school and can expect some similar problems for as long as he goes there.
 
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feral

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God-free said:
"Mike" is not a Christian but he attends a Christian school (a decision made for him by his parents). When the teachers and other students stand to pray, "Mike" always remains seated and quiet. Recently, one of the teachers was out for the day and a substitute teacher was brought in. When the class stood to pray, the substitute teacher told "Mike" to stand. "Mike" said no and explained that he is not Christian. The teacher told "Mike" to stand anyway as a gesture of respect. Not wanting to cause trouble "Mike" complied.

As I see it, "Mike" shows more than enough respect by remaining seated and silent during prayers. I also see it as a show of disrespect toward "Mike" to tell him to stand while others speak to a deity he doesn't believe in. Why do so many religious people feel ENTITLED to respect for their beliefs?

Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens often make this point. Why should religion, which is after all an opinion, be respected any more than any other opinion?

Religion, as an opinion, shouldn't be respected. It should be questioned and challenged, and no one should feel obligated to adopt it any more than they would adopt a political opinion or taste for art just because someone else held it. That said, people deserve respect, whether they are religious or not. Someone can lose this right though their actions, like Fred Phelps has for most people, but everyone starts out with it. We need not directly insult others or force them to do things contradictory to their values, which seems to be what happened in the case of "Mike". The choice to sit quietly was very respectful. He didn't agree with what was going on, but accepted the fact that others wanted to do it, and didn't argue or harrass anyone, he simply sat there. I'm puzzled why the teacher thought he would show more respect by pretending to take part than by declining politely. Participation out of obligation isn't respect, it's mimickry and it cheapens everyone else's experience.

I do feel that in the public sphere, religion can be debated, argued, insulted, ignored -- whatever you like. We live in secular society and we know that not everyone shares the same beliefs. There is no reason to demonstrate respect for something you disagree with when it's in the public sphere. However, if you make the decision to enter a private sphere where religion is practised, such as a home or church, I think you are obligated to demonstrate respect for the fact that the people there believe the religion. In my case, for instance, I am currently living on-campus and attending a beautiful Catholic college and grad school. No one forced me to be here, I came here out of choice because the programs are amazing and the environment is beyond wonderful. I love it here, but I could leave if I wanted to. Thus, I feel that it's right for me to be very respectful. I don't advertise my disbelief while on campus unless explicitly asked, and then I don't debate it at length unless encouraged so to do. I am careful about clothes and don't wear things I know are going to offend except inside my own room or off-campus. Most of my neighbours on my floor are nuns, so I avoid swearing in my building and if I enter the lounge when they are at prayer, I back out again quietly and don't do my cooking then. When I hang out with them, and I do, I don't touch on controversial topics unless they start, and if they ask me to go to mass I either politely decline or sometimes go as an observer because I think it's lovely. That, to me, is respectful and I've not been corrected by anyone on my manners here. With minors it's difficult because they didn't select the environment. That's part of the reason why I abhor the thought of children forced into church or religious schools. Not only does it usually turn them off to religion, but it creates an environment where they either subjugate their own beliefs -- unhealthy! -- or inevitably demonstrate rudeness. In my view, "Mike" shouldn't have been put there in the first place, but he seemed to be handling it the best way he knew how.
 
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1TrueDisciple

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What do you think?

I think he clearly doesn't belong in that school, and he should talk to the principal about getting his parents to transfer him to a more appropriate school.

The request that he stand as a gesture of respect is for the benefit of the other students, not for him or for God. People customarily show respect for authority by rising or standing when the authority is being represented or is present. This is what we do when we rise for the national anthem at ball games or stand while in the presence of a judge, senator, congressman, mayor, or even the CEO of our company.

If he can't be sent to another school, then the principal should authorize him to be discretely dismissed from the classroom during prayer times, so that his behavior is not misinterpreted by teachers and fellow students as representing an expression of disrespect.
 
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Autumnleaf

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"Mike" is not a Christian but he attends a Christian school (a decision made for him by his parents). When the teachers and other students stand to pray, "Mike" always remains seated and quiet. Recently, one of the teachers was out for the day and a substitute teacher was brought in. When the class stood to pray, the substitute teacher told "Mike" to stand. "Mike" said no and explained that he is not Christian. The teacher told "Mike" to stand anyway as a gesture of respect. Not wanting to cause trouble "Mike" complied.

As I see it, "Mike" shows more than enough respect by remaining seated and silent during prayers. I also see it as a show of disrespect toward "Mike" to tell him to stand while others speak to a deity he doesn't believe in. Why do so many religious people feel ENTITLED to respect for their beliefs?

What do you think?

~Barbara

Mike has no business at a Christian school if he refuses to follow their rules. If a student at a public school stands while the other children are seated it is treated as insubordination. So it is with Mike.
 
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Washington

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Mike has no business at a Christian school if he refuses to follow their rules. If a student at a public school stands while the other children are seated it is treated as insubordination. So it is with Mike.
Knock! Knock! Anyone home up there???? Try reading the OP, C-A-R-E-F-U-L-L-Y.
 
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OphidiaPhile

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Mike has no business at a Christian school if he refuses to follow their rules. If a student at a public school stands while the other children are seated it is treated as insubordination. So it is with Mike.
That is ridiculous, if he does not want to stand he should not have to stand, more people need to challenge authority and not be blindly led by the nose.
 
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Garyzenuf

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Mike has no business at a Christian school if he refuses to follow their rules. If a student at a public school stands while the other children are seated it is treated as insubordination. So it is with Mike.

Having said that, you realize that Mike didn't want to be there in the first place, and acted honestly and honorably when put in a tough situation.
 
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HollandScotts

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Mike has no business at a Christian school if he refuses to follow their rules. If a student at a public school stands while the other children are seated it is treated as insubordination. So it is with Mike.

So then you're ok with a Christian at a Muslim school being forced to kneel before a shrine to Allah, or Mohommed? After all, rules are rules, personal values be damned, right?
 
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Autumnleaf

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So then you're ok with a Christian at a Muslim school being forced to kneel before a shrine to Allah, or Mohommed? After all, rules are rules, personal values be damned, right?

Yes. If Mike's personal values mean anything to him he will be insubordinate until he gets expelled for it. The idea that we should change the nature of a Christian school to acomodate for nonChristians would be like trying to change the nature of a Mosque to acomodate for Christians who decide to go there. Its asinine.
 
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Washington

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The request that he stand as a gesture of respect is for the benefit of the other students, not for him or for God.
And just what kind of respect is that? Just what would Mike be respecting? And what kind of benefit do the other students derive from Mike standing up?



People customarily show respect for authority by rising or standing when the authority is being represented or is present.
Are you suggesting that people saying their prayers is on par with an authority being present?



This is what we do when we rise for the national anthem at ball games or stand while in the presence of a judge, senator, congressman, mayor, or even the CEO of our company.
Possibly, or possibly not. We always retain the option of not standing. Of course when it's one's boss, such a decision is weighed in the light of one's future employment. A far more significant consequence than the nothing that would result in a classroom.



If he can't be sent to another school, then the principal should authorize him to be discretely dismissed from the classroom during prayer times, so that his behavior is not misinterpreted by teachers and fellow students as representing an expression of disrespect.
Gee, what a neat solution. The teacher and other students are so mentally impaired that they can't understand why Mikey is remaining seated and not showing any disrespect toward them or their praying that in order to spare them their misinterpretation he should leave the room every time they pray. How very asinine.
 
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HollandScotts

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Yes. If Mike's personal values mean anything to him he will be insubordinate until he gets expelled for it. The idea that we should change the nature of a Christian school to acomodate for nonChristians would be like trying to change the nature of a Mosque to acomodate for Christians who decide to go there. Its asinine.

All because you want to force your religion on him? I thought school was about learning, not having some idiot teacher force his religion down your throat. But I guess that's the sole purpose of Christian schools, in't it?
 
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1TrueDisciple

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And just what kind of respect is that? Just what would Mike be respecting?

Gee, what a neat solution. The teacher and other students are so mentally impaired that they can't understand why Mikey is remaining seated and not showing any disrespect toward them or their praying that in order to spare them their misinterpretation he should leave the room every time they pray. How very asinine.

If the brat doesn't want to abide by Christian rules, he shouldn't attend a Christian school. Don't say that he doesn't have a choice because all he has to do is misbehave enough, and he will be kicked out. So if he wants out, he can get out. The more likely truth is that he's just another trouble making malcontent (aka "activist") who wants to force the school to kowtow to his atheist views and abandon its principles.

If one thinks my proposal of a discreet dismissal is "asinine", there is always the time tested and time honored solution of allowing the other boys beat the snot out of him until he becomes motivated to change schools willingly.
 
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quatona

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If the brat doesn't want to abide by Christian rules, he shouldn't attend a Christian school. Don't say that he doesn't have a choice because all he has to do is misbehave enough, and he will be kicked out. So if he wants out, he can get out.
Apparently standing up while others pray is not mandatory on this school.
But you have an interesting double bind going on there, anyways: Your moral prescription for him is to misbehave, and you also advocate punishing him for following your moral prescription.
The more likely truth is that he's just another trouble making malcontent (aka "activist") who wants to force the school to kowtow to his atheist views and abandon its principles.
If he were a troublemaker he would make trouble. So far he has just been sitting there silently.

If one thinks my proposal of a discreet dismissal is "asinine", there is always the time tested and time honored solution of allowing the other boys beat the snot out of him until he becomes motivated to change schools willingly.
Ah, now your ideas as to what´s common decency and mutual human respect are becoming clearer.
 
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