Requirements of Salvation

[FreeGrace2]

I have a friend who is in a sexual relationship with a woman. He says he is saved. I have doubts about it although he does love God.

Why should one judge the relationship between any person and God based on their actions?

King David raped and murdered. And he was a mature believer at that time. But just a believer who was way out of fellowship.

If you don't understand the difference between relationship and fellowship, you will not grasp what I post.

 

[Athanasius377]

What I am saying, is this is the way eternity is going to be for some. It's not punishment, it's reward lost for eternity. No sin nature and we will fully comprehend how we failed in time. And how the Lord was JUST in His Bema judgment.

1 Cor 3:15~~New King James Version
If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Not quite, The text you refer to is regarding the building of the church. Lets put it back into context:

But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, 3 for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? 4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not being merely human?
5 What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. 8 He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor. 9 For we are God’s fellow workers. You are God’s field, God’s building.
10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
16 Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? 17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple.
18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their craftiness,” 20 and again, “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.” 21 So let no one boast in men. For all things are yours, 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, 23 and you are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.


The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (1 Co 3:1–23). Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles.

So what's going on in 1 cor 3:10-15? This is a regarding the building of the church. Paul laid the cornerstone, someone else is building on it, they should be careful building on it. That foundation is Jesus Christ. This is a Chiasm by the way, ABBA structure used as a teaching device. The thrust isn't the burning part, which will judge the workmanship of those building the church but also God will save them in the nick of time cf Amos 4:11. Rather its the building up of the church.

But the problem here is this doesn't in anyway prove your assertion weeping and gnashing of teeth in the outer darkness is not final judgement.

 

[Athanasius377]

I disagree. It is only an assumption, and a poor one at that, about "outer darkness" referring to hell.

So what part of heaven/ the Kingdom is there going to be outer darkness and gnashing of teeth? And what biblical support can you marshall to prove this?

 

[Athanasius377]

Now, before we continue, do you really think that God would invite "the bad as well as the good" to a wedding banquet for His Son?? The servants did exactly as the father asked.

The text itself answers your question: (ESV)
10 And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests.

So clearly that was the case.

Now, let's continue in the parable:
11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes.
12 He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless.
13 “Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
14 “For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

How does it make any sense to believe that God invites unbelievers into heaven and then throws some of them out?

In the ancient oriental world, it was the father of the groom who provided proper wedding clothes for guests to wear. And v.11 shows that one of the guests didn't follow the rules of the banquet. It seems the garments were provided, but the guest just wasn't interested in wearing them.

Also notice how the father addressed this ill-attired guest; "friend". Is that how God would address any unbeliever? Unbelievers aren't "friends" of God in any sense.

You are correct: The Father of the Groom would have provided proper attire: the righteousness of Christ. Cf Gal 3:27, Rev 7:9, Rev 19:8.
And the term Ἑταῖρε, is not as familiar as you would think. The sense means something like "associate". It's actually distancing the Master from the ill-attired guest.

ἑταῖρος, ου, ὁ (Hom.+; also Ath. 31, 1 [v.l. ἑτέροι]) a person who has someth. in common with others and enjoys association, but not necessarily at the level of a φίλος or φίλη, comrade, companion, of a member of one’s group fellow-member D 14:2.

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 398). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.


Your linked article actually refutes your position. Both in the context of the article and the linked definition. Its usually not good form to cite a source that refutes your position. I would agree with the section below as a warning not to cling to our own self-righteousness.

For his crime against the king, the improperly attired guest is thrown out into the darkness. For their crimes against God, there will be many who will be consigned to “outer darkness”—existence without God for eternity. Christ concludes the parable with the sad fact that “many are invited, but few are chosen.” In other words, many people hear the call of God, but only a few heed it.

To summarize the point of the Parable of the Wedding Feast, God sent His Son into the world, and the very people who should have celebrated His coming rejected Him, bringing judgment upon themselves. As a result, the kingdom of heaven was opened up to anyone who will set aside his own righteousness and by faith accept the righteousness God provides in Christ. Those who spurn the gift of salvation and cling instead to their own “good” works will spend eternity in hell.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So what part of heaven/ the Kingdom is there going to be outer darkness and gnashing of teeth?

Didn't you read my post? I fully explained the parable. And if you insist on presuming that "outer darkness" refers to hell, you have 2 PROBLEMS.

1. an unbeliever getting into heaven and then being kicked out.
2. an unbeliever addressed by God as "friend".

So, explain those PROBLEMS that you have.

And what biblical support can you marshall to prove this?

Good heavens. The parable itself can't be referring to hell. Did you at least click on the link to "got questions" that I provided. It explains that parable fully. I highly recommend it.

If you have an open mind, you will understand and accept it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Your linked article actually refutes your position. Both in the context of the article and the linked definition.

Well, the conclusion of the article is different than my position. And that means both YOU and the author have 2 huge PROBLEMS that neither of you can answer or defend.

To summarize the point of the Parable of the Wedding Feast, God sent His Son into the world, and the very people who should have celebrated His coming rejected Him, bringing judgment upon themselves. As a result, the kingdom of heaven was opened up to anyone who will set aside his own righteousness and by faith accept the righteousness God provides in Christ. Those who spurn the gift of salvation and cling instead to their own “good” works will spend eternity in hell.

Apparently you and the author are quite unfamiliar with the doctrine of rewards for faithfulness and obedience. The parable is about that. The setting is the wedding supper of the Lamb.

And you STILL have the PROBLEM of an unbeliever being cast out of heaven into hell, AND that God addresses your presumed unbeliever as "friend".

But I guess you're comfortable with all your PROBLEMS.

 

[Athanasius377]

Didn't you read my post? I fully explained the parable. And if you insist on presuming that "outer darkness" refers to hell, you have 2 PROBLEMS.

1. an unbeliever getting into heaven and then being kicked out.
2. an unbeliever addressed by God as "friend".

So, explain those PROBLEMS that you have.


Good heavens. The parable itself can't be referring to hell. Did you at least click on the link to "got questions" that I provided. It explains that parable fully. I highly recommend it.

If you have an open mind, you will understand and accept it.

See post #84. I answered your questions.

 

[Quietus]

You cant live in sin (living contrary to God's will) and have real faith. This is taught throughout the whole Bible, OT & NT.

David had real faith when he killed that soldier and slept with his wife. He was also chastised and repented afterward.

 

[Athanasius377]

Well, the conclusion of the article is different than my position. And that means both YOU and the author have 2 huge PROBLEMS that neither of you can answer or defend.


Apparently you and the author are quite unfamiliar with the doctrine of rewards for faithfulness and obedience. The parable is about that. The setting is the wedding supper of the Lamb.

And you STILL have the PROBLEM of an unbeliever being cast out of heaven into hell, AND that God addresses your presumed unbeliever as "friend".

But I guess you're comfortable with all your PROBLEMS.

Here is your problem. You begin with a doctrine and then try and shoehorn this doctrine into verses that do not teach this doctrine. I don't want to have an open mind I want to have a biblical mind. I have answered everyone of your charges with scripture. What you have done in return is respond with your own personal musings and articles that also refute you. And you still haven't answered my post here #62. That's pretty weak sauce.

 

[Quietus]

Like it was mentioned above. Even Satan and his evil army believe in Jesus. Even they have faith in Jesus.

It certainly takes more than just plain faith.

If you have true faith and love of God, good works will follow. Did not the Apostles do good works?

Jesus did many good works. We are to follow His lead.

Born again means nothing if you do not follow Jesus and His teachings.

Jesus said to pick up our cross and follow Him. That is a work that comes from true faith in Our Lord

Demons don’t have faith in Jesus. They believe God is one. Jesus didn’t come to save demons.

 

[Lost4words]

Demons don’t have faith in Jesus. They believe God is one. Jesus didn’t come to save demons.

They believe in God

 

[Gr8Grace]

But the problem here is this doesn't in anyway prove your assertion weeping and gnashing of teeth in the outer darkness is not final judgement.

Everybody has been taught from their first day of salvation That "weeping and gnashing of teeth and outer darkness" is the worst possible thing ever.......Hell. So it's going to be very hard to argue for a different interpretation..........the mind is SET. Possibly, it is not hell and we have made the bark worse than the bite?

Weeping and gnashing~~~regret. We will know our failures in time in heaven. There is no remorse in heaven but we will be fully aware of our failures. There is no longer sin or the sin nature in heaven so we will see and understand our failures perfectly. That doesn't take away the JOY of heaven.

2 John 1:8~~New American Standard Bible
Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.
1 John 2:28~~New American Standard Bible
Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming.

Outer darkness~~outside of the 'know.' Excluded from something we had the chance to be included in. But our failures in time, left us with less than a full reward.

Paul uses many analogies of the military in his writings. And the idea of 'reign.'

Eph 6:11~~New American Standard Bible
Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil.


2 Tim 2:12~~New American Standard Bible
If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;(Reign)

So we could use the analogy of the military. Do we stay a private or do we live the Christian way of life and become a General?

The Private had the same opportunity to become a General as the General did. The private still participates and has his perfect, joyful place.........but he isn't in with command central and the General planning operations.

Or we could use the analogy of growing in the grace and knowledge of The Lord Jesus Christ. Do we stay a babe in Christ or do we fully mature by living the Christian way of life?

The babe has to be taught bible doctrine, they neglected it in time. Rather than teaching it(excluded in something that they should have been included in/ they are in the dark/ outside of the 'know') they need to be taught. This doesn't take away the joy and perfectness of heaven. Everyone has their perfect place, but it is not all equal.

 

[FreeGrace2]

See post #84. I answered your questions.

Read it again, please. You responded to Gr8Grace's post. Not mine. You have 2 huge problems that you need to answer regarding the parable in Matt 22.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Here is your problem.

Are you going to addres your own 2 huge problems with Matt 22?

You begin with a doctrine and then try and shoehorn this doctrine into verses that do not teach this doctrine.

Where have I done that? Please explain yourself.

I don't want to have an open mind I want to have a biblical mind.

Right. You mean your presumption of a "biblical mind".

I have answered everyone of your charges with scripture.

You have NOT, so please don't make this FALSE claim.

What you have done in return is respond with your own personal musings and articles that also refute you.

I did respond to that article, and the conclusion has the same 2 problems as you do. And you have failed to defend your 2 huge problems with Matt 22 and the "outer darkness".

And you still haven't answered my post here #62. That's pretty weak sauce.

I did answer that. I didn't address the other passages that used "outer darkness" because they aren't relevant to Matt 22. I specifically did address Matt 22 and pointed out the 2 HUGE PROBLEMS that you have with your presumption about that parable, and you haven't addressed them yet.

btw, in Matt 22, ancient wedding banquets occurred at night. So being thrown out of the banquet hall would mean being cast into the darkness outside. Very simple.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Are you going to addres your own 2 huge problems with Matt 22?

I didn't want to touch this with a 10 meter cattle prod for a LONG time!! And It's been a while since I have went through it in detail..........Please advise if I say something incorrect or can be shown further truths on this matter.

 

[Salvadore]

Why should one judge the relationship between any person and God based on their actions?

King David raped and murdered. And he was a mature believer at that time. But just a believer who was way out of fellowship.

If you don't understand the difference between relationship and fellowship, you will not grasp what I post.

OK. I won't question his actions. I think fornicators will not inherit the
Kingdom of God though. Unless, of course they repent and forsake their sin. Correct? What if they die in their sin?

 

[Gr8Grace]

I have a friend who is in a sexual relationship with a woman. He says he is saved. I have doubts about it although he does love God.

I know many Christians that don't have many overt sins........that look down their noses at other believers for theirs......... They are arguably in a WORSE spot than the believer who is overtly sinning.

Why are these folks never brought up? For every 1 overt sinning believer there are 1000 that JUDGE and question that 1 persons salvation. For every 1 overt sinning believer there are 1000 that go , " Psstt, come here, I am not gossiping but....."

The 1 overt sinner always gets brought up. But the 1000 who are judging, maligning and questioning the "poor souls" salvation get a free pass.

 

[Salvadore]

“What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or a sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works; shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thus how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?”

 

[Salvadore]

Galatians 6:1 ESV / 6 helpful votes
Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.

I always thought we were to be accountable to each other. Instead of gossiping or looking down your nose, should you not speak with a friend about a transgression in a gentle manner? But then, if transgressions don't matter with regard to salvation, then we mind our own business?

 

[Gr8Grace]

“What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or a sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works; shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thus how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?”

This is not eternal salvation. Eternal salvation is faith alone in Christ alone.

Simply look at the context. It is an application of our faith to DAILY LIFE. And the things we do in our daily lives. Can I save a starving person just praying for him and telling him God bless you......NO!

My faith says, go to the grocery store , buy the guy some food and give it to him. And it will be SEEN by others......If I don't my faith is worthless/dead to that man.

Eternal salvation is not even in the context.