Reponse

[Joy]

I for one am deeply saddened that some openly joke about those who speak about repentance. are there any others here who agree.

 

[jiminpa]

Was it Leonard Ravenhill who said something about the only end for one who preaches repentance is "off with his head"? Why would we expect those who work so hard to moralize their sin to respond any differently?

The world being the world, looks the same on "Christian Forums" as it does in the rest of the world.

 

[Messy]

I for one am deeply saddened that some openly joke about those who speak about repentance. are there any others here who agree.

Didn't see that. I saw a hide and seek thread where you can hide a sin and others can attack you and find it. Looked like what I saw happening the other day with Frogster and he wasn't even hiding a sin. I wondered if he was still alive after it, my goodness.
Noone here speaks openly about sin or what they struggle with. I did once and got someone who said: You shouldn't sin. No really? Yet if a thread on sin and how we can live holy is started in non denominational everyone is honest and helping each other.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Repentance is a vital, Biblical doctrine, and practical requirement, which Paul expounds in Romans 2, and, indeed, which the Lord Jesus Himself proclaimed in Mark chapter 1, etc.

 

[Joy]

Repentance is a vital, Biblical doctrine, and practical requirement, which Paul expounds in Romans 2, and, indeed, which the Lord Jesus Himself proclaimed in Mark chapter 1, etc.

Yes I totally agree
Roms 2:4 The goodness of God leads us to repentance


Also what do we understand about 1 John 1:5-10

5 Now the message that we have heard from his Son and announce is this: God is light, and there is no darkness at all in him. 6 If, then, we say that we have fellowship with him, yet at the same time live in the darkness, we are lying both in our words and in our actions. 7 But if we live in the light—just as he is in the light—then we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from every sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and there is no truth in us. 9 But if we confess our sins to God, he will keep his promise and do what is right: he will forgive us our sins and purify us from all our wrongdoing. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make a liar out of God, and his word is not in us.

Is this passage talking to Christians or non-Christians

 

[faroukfarouk]

Clearly, repentance is an on-going responsibility for believers.

It is not just a question of 'doing it' by sticking up one's hand at an evangelical campaign in a stadium someplace.

 

[geetrue]

Yes I totally agree
Roms 2:4 The goodness of God leads us to repentance


Also what do we understand about 1 John 1:5-10

5 Now the message that we have heard from his Son and announce is this: God is light, and there is no darkness at all in him. 6 If, then, we say that we have fellowship with him, yet at the same time live in the darkness, we are lying both in our words and in our actions. 7 But if we live in the light—just as he is in the light—then we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from every sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and there is no truth in us. 9 But if we confess our sins to God, he will keep his promise and do what is right: he will forgive us our sins and purify us from all our wrongdoing. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make a liar out of God, and his word is not in us.

Is this passage talking to Christians or non-Christians

Yes it is ... good points MollieSue.

St John is leading us to the narrow gate.

Jesus told St Peter with St John in attendance at the first prayer breakfast (remember St Peter said, "I am going fishing" and all of the other disciples went with him).

Jesus told St Peter that he was not doing what he had told them to do and then said, "Feed my sheep, feed my lambs"

We could start a thread for sinners only or we can stand our ground and fight the ignorance that the devil clouds us all with.

 

[Messy]

We could start a thread for sinners only

Already made that.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7865510/#post67020925

Noone posts in the 'for saints only'.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7865512/#post67020936

 

[gideons300]

Yes I totally agree
Roms 2:4 The goodness of God leads us to repentance


Also what do we understand about 1 John 1:5-10

5 Now the message that we have heard from his Son and announce is this: God is light, and there is no darkness at all in him. 6 If, then, we say that we have fellowship with him, yet at the same time live in the darkness, we are lying both in our words and in our actions. 7 But if we live in the light—just as he is in the light—then we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from every sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and there is no truth in us. 9 But if we confess our sins to God, he will keep his promise and do what is right: he will forgive us our sins and purify us from all our wrongdoing. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make a liar out of God, and his word is not in us.

Is this passage talking to Christians or non-Christians

Mollie, you certainly strike me as a sincere seeker. May I offer you my take on those verses?

With what God has shown me, that by putting off our old nature and reckoning it dead to us, and by our putting on new natures that can indeed be caused to obey, just as God promised, there are a few verses that seemingly contradict this stance. One of them is in 1 John.

John says this:

"If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

Here John is saying that it is because we have been cleansed that we can walk in the light. Then he follows with this verse:

"If we say that we have no sin (that we need to be cleansed of, referring to the previous verse), we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Many have erred here, thinking this a clear denunciation of anyone's abilty to walk in real purity, obedience and holiness. But it is simply in our reading and our emphasis that the translation is muddled. What John is saying is that if we say we have no need to be cleansed by Christ's death, we lie. To reiterate that this is the correct understanding, John repeats it, this time in the correct tense.... the past tense. Listen:

"If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

How do we know for sure that this is what he meant? Easy. Look at how John continues.

"Little children, these things I write to you that you sin not."

Do we see? What? If we obey this directive, and walk in holiness as we are called to do, then we are liars and the truth is not in us? LOL. It would make no sense, would it?

Now, thank God, John gives us hope in our weakness as we begin to stand up and trust that our God can keep us from falling. As we fight our good fight of faith, taking up our position as new men and women, delivered from the power of sin. He says if..... IF we sin..... not when but if, we can confess, be forgiven... AND cleansed. Two different things.

But if any is unsure of this interpretation, for this is an important point to nail down, we just have to keep reading. The rest of 1 John is a veritable mine field for us if we think there is not way to get free from the grip of sin.

"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.

For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

1 John 3

We all have the first half of the gospel down. Yes, we are forgiven. Yes, IF we slip, we can get up again and regain our footing on the highway of holiness. But in this late hour, we are even now awakening to the promises of the new covenant, that God will cleanse us as well as forgive us. And He will do this miracle through opening our eyes to our new natures He has for each of us....our wedding garments. He will cause us to fully obey, praise God. We can take that to the bank.

I pray this helps a bit.

Thank you for being a part of the forum.

Gideon

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I'm more of a Romans 12 repenter .

 

[Joy]

don't understand some of these posts

 

[Messy]

don't understand some of these posts

I think it would be much better not to discuss those things, since people don't understand each other anyway.
It only brings confusion.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

don't understand some of these posts

I think it would be much better not to discuss those things, since people don't understand each other anyway.
It only brings confusion.

Genesis 11

7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”
8 So the Lord scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. 9 That is why it was called Babel—because there the Lord confused the language of the whole world. From there the Lord scattered them over the face of the whole earth.

 

[probinson]

Hi Mollie,

I don't get it either. I don't understand the revulsion to the simple, scriptural concepts of repentance and obedience by a select group of individuals in this forum. I honestly don't understand how one can have a relationship with their heavenly Father and be so against repentance.

For me personally, I desire to be pleasing to my Father. So when I do something that I know is wrong, I am quick to repent. I am not concerned that I am going to lose my salvation when I sin. I know that because of what Jesus Christ did on my behalf, I am secure in my salvation. But I still repent because I know I've done something that is not pleasing to my Father, and I do desire to please Him.

Some people have likewise denigrated obedience by suggesting that because a puppy can be taught to obey, it's no big deal. But our obedience should result from our Love and desire to be pleasing to the Father.

IMO the folks that constantly post against repentance and obedience are foolish. Yes, one can enter into fear if they think that their repentance is what is keeping them saved, and one can enter into a works-based obedience where they feel like they must perform to "earn" the Father's acceptance. Those are very real issues that should be guarded against. But many of those posting against repentance make no such distinction, throwing out the baby with the bathwater in their flawed understanding of "grace".

When we receive God's grace, we can't help but be changed. The gravity of what God has done for us, even though we've done nothing to deserve it, should invariably cause us to change. It should create in us a meek, teachable heart where we are quick to repent when we know we've done wrong and where we obey our Father because we Love Him.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I think the constant posting against obedience and repentance "focus" not the terms themselves per se (can you say straw man?) is really an aversion to control freaks . (which is a self centric form of covetousness and idolatry) but because of the way the forum is set up . people have found a round about way of explaining what they disagree with .. so stuff is lost in translation .

 

[jiminpa]

Hi Mollie,

I don't get it either. I don't understand the revulsion to the simple, scriptural concepts of repentance and obedience by a select group of individuals in this forum. I honestly don't understand how one can have a relationship with their heavenly Father and be so against repentance.

Simple, it's not possible.

When we receive God's grace, we can't help but be changed. The gravity of what God has done for us, even though we've done nothing to deserve it, should invariably cause us to change. It should create in us a meek, teachable heart where we are quick to repent when we know we've done wrong and where we obey our Father because we Love Him.

I'd even go a step further and point out that because of God's grace we have a new nature, (or should), and the gravity of what God has done for us is that if we really are His, we are new creatures. This makes our obedience or lack of it a reflection of which nature we have. Not that we are instantly perfected upon salvation, but we should start gravitating toward it. Sorry, but the Bible is quite clear about the spiritual state of one who rejects repentance, and we see that very clearly on this forum if we care to look.

 

[probinson]

I think the constant posting against obedience and repentance "focus" not the terms themselves per se (can you say straw man?) is really an aversion to control freaks . (which is a self centric form of covetousness and idolatry) but because of the way the forum is set up . people have found a round about way of explaining what they disagree with .. so stuff is lost in translation .

I don't buy this.

The "focus" of the forum (if there is such a thing) is dictated by all of the people that post here. I keep hearing how we should not "focus" on certain things, and we should instead "focus" on other things. But the great irony is that precious few people actually do anything to attempt change the focus to something else. Instead, they just complain that they don't like the "focus" where it is, which is ironically keeping the "focus" exactly what they say they don't want it.

I say if you want the "focus" of the forum on something else, make an effort to put it there. Don't just complain because the focus is wrong. Make an attempt to refocus where you you think it should be.

This, however, requires a great deal of maturity and self control. It would mean ignoring those things that are focused on the "wrong" thing and simply placing your efforts and focus on the "right" thing. But then you wouldn't be able to tell people they're "wrong" (since you'd be ignoring those wrongly focused posts), and I think that's probably asking far too much from some people here.

 

[jiminpa]

But then you wouldn't be able to tell people they're "wrong"... and I think that's probably asking far too much from some people here.

Ouch. Thanks Pete for illuminating an area that I need to examine in myself.

This is a good thing that Pete showed me an area in my life that I can improve on. He wasn't condemning me, and he wasn't being proud. He offered a general observation and I saw myself in it. Now it's up to me to get with God and examine it and allow Him or not allow Him to help me grow. I like to grow, but I don't always like to put the work in, so we will see in time which I have chosen.

 

[geetrue]

This, however, requires a great deal of maturity and self control. It would mean ignoring those things that are focused on the "wrong" thing and simply placing your efforts and focus on the "right" thing. But then you wouldn't be able to tell people they're "wrong" (since you'd be ignoring those wrongly focused posts), and I think that's probably asking far too much from some people here.

You get the truth award Pete

Love doesn't see the blemishes 1 Corinthians 13

 

[gideons300]

Hi Mollie,

I don't get it either. I don't understand the revulsion to the simple, scriptural concepts of repentance and obedience by a select group of individuals in this forum. I honestly don't understand how one can have a relationship with their heavenly Father and be so against repentance.

For me personally, I desire to be pleasing to my Father. So when I do something that I know is wrong, I am quick to repent. I am not concerned that I am going to lose my salvation when I sin. I know that because of what Jesus Christ did on my behalf, I am secure in my salvation. But I still repent because I know I've done something that is not pleasing to my Father, and I do desire to please Him.

Some people have likewise denigrated obedience by suggesting that because a puppy can be taught to obey, it's no big deal. But our obedience should result from our Love and desire to be pleasing to the Father.

IMO the folks that constantly post against repentance and obedience are foolish. Yes, one can enter into fear if they think that their repentance is what is keeping them saved, and one can enter into a works-based obedience where they feel like they must perform to "earn" the Father's acceptance. Those are very real issues that should be guarded against. But many of those posting against repentance make no such distinction, throwing out the baby with the bathwater in their flawed understanding of "grace".

When we receive God's grace, we can't help but be changed. The gravity of what God has done for us, even though we've done nothing to deserve it, should invariably cause us to change. It should create in us a meek, teachable heart where we are quick to repent when we know we've done wrong and where we obey our Father because we Love Him.

Pete, you know I love you and appreciate you very much. So with that in mind, I wanted to address something you said :

"The gravity of what God has done for us, even though we've done nothing to deserve it, should invariably cause us to change. It should create in us a meek, teachable heart where we are quick to repent when we know we've done wrong and where we obey our Father because we Love Him."

It should, yes, but does it? I think at the beginning of our walk perhaps it does for new believers. Everything is fresh, the love of God is real and strong, and we see joy and an exciting expectation of what God has planned for us. But then life happens. Reality sets in, and sins happen, and no matter how hard we fight, and how genuinely we repent, we seem to repeat sins that are our particular nemesis and the result in the end is that sin begins to re-hardens the heart. Oh, maybe not so much as to cause us to lose salvation, but certainly enough for us to lose our gratitude attitude" as we find trying to please God by being a "good Christian" is a tough row to hoe. The bottom line is that the Christian still walking in the old nature will find obedience an elusive target.... frustratingly elusive.

For much of the true saved church, gratitude wanes, our surrender dries up a bit, and our constant failures and feeling of no real progress leaves us sort of feeling like we are floundering.

The truth is, we do not know how to grow. Oh, we can get more head knowledge, but growth in the nature of Christ in us? If it comes at all, it comes in painfully small advancements, almost imperceptible. Why? Why is this the norm found in virtually all of Christianity, especially when we are promised joy unspeakable and full of glory as we overcome the world, the flesh and the devil?

If the passage of time is the missing element that is required, great. But do we see 80 year old saints whop have walked with God for 60 of those years walking in or even nearing what we would consider holiness? Is their zeal far greater than when they were 30? Thank God for the rare examples of dedication, but for most of us, time has not been the key. It has instead caused us to lower expectations and settle in for long haul.

If it were becoming "spirit filled", then should we not be beacons of light to the rest of the church in our behavior and not just in our dogmatic stand on tongues and the gifts of the Spirit? The word is clear. Those filled with the Spirit will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. No guilt here, just truth from God's word.

So what is it? I believe it is simple. The old nature cannot be reformed. It cannot be made holy by law. It cannot be made more devoted by a debt of gratitude. It should. It seems logical. But it cannot, not as long and we are walking in our lower nature, the one where this world is seen as our home... and as long as we see our life as ours with Christ in it. Not until Christ IS our life....with us dead.... will we see real change.

We cannot grow from the old nature into the new nature in a gradual emptying and re-filling. We cannot serve two masters. It is impossible. The old nature must be put off...by faith. This is no small deal. In truth, it is huge, a foundational truth God is restoring to us as we awake to His voice in these last days.

I know I press on this a lot, as evidenced by a few well meaning folks who tire of my posts, and then get on my posts to tell me how much they tire of them. LOL. But my message is not sin and it is not repentance. It is faith, and our real sin is unbelief and it is that for which we need to repent. We have limited the Holy One of Israel just as surely as the Israelites did when told that God has given them the land of Promise.

God says He has delivered us from the power of darkness. He tells us that we are no longer in the flesh if we are born again, and that we owe that old nature NOTHING. He proclaims that sin shall no longer has dominion over us, and that our shields of faith will quench all the fiery arrows of satan...every one of them. He tells us that we are now light in the Lord, new creatures and that when we are now tempted to fall to sin's power, He will make sure to keep us from falling by making sure that we are not tempted above our ability to resist it. How? He will make a way of escape and then cause us to take it! Glory to God!

Now, the big question. Do we believe it? Do we believe it NOW.... FOR US? Or are we left to make excuses as to why the promises do not mean what they plainly state and we fall prey to interpreting truth by our experiences rather than visa versa?

This transaction of "reckoning that Paul urges us to is to be done AFTER we agree to it with our head. A heart transaction is called for and Paul says it is re-balancing our spiritual inventory by taking away a nature that naturally sins and replacing it with a nature that naturally can be led to obey. Reckoning. It is by faith, taking truth that IS, and then made MY truth.

It is the classic "Believe that you receive it ( a new heart through now faith) and you shall have it ( a new nature becoming increasingly fruitful through our abiding in that truth}".

Putting on our new nature can be done in a heartbeat. All we do is ask, believe we receive and we have..... but the only way our hearts can believe such a thing is if we have taken our hands off our old self nature, released all rights to it to God, giving Him permission to kill it so we can be given new ones. That is the painful part and for some, it is so threatening that anger and the feeling of being attacked results. It is in truth a bit understandable why some resist so vigorously for the flesh, the old us just doesn't want to die.

I pray some of this makes sense.

Many blessing. You are much loved.

Gideon