Reply to Dispy's post, ' twoedge; from the fall...' posted 5 Jan 12:20am in the thread ' By Covenant or Grace. '
Dispy in Red-
From the fall of Adam, and onward to Abram, man became exceedingly wicked. During this time, there were only Gentiles in the earth. Because these Gentiles became so wicked, and didn't keep God in their heart, God set them aside at the Tower of Babel (Genesis 11). Even through these rebellious time, God has always shown His grace by providing a means in which one could be saved/justified. It was by believing/doing, by faith, what God required at that point in time in human history.
I disagree. God's method of salvation has always been the same because His character ( Holy, Just, Loving ) is absolute and unchangeable. Man's condition since the fall has also not changed. God's justice can only be satisfied by faith in the sacrificial death of Christ...
' for there is no other name under heaven given by which we must be saved ' Acts 4:12
Now I concede that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob lacked an explicit knowledge of the cross but still had enough knowledge of Christ for his faith to lay hold of.
' The Angel who has redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads..' Gen 48:16...
' Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad. John 8:56
' These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them. '
Heb 11:13-16
They, like us desired a heavenly country, they saw them afar off. Notice also that Abel, Enoch and Noah etc who lived before Abraham are described as not receiving the promises. This, I think, would support my belief that the original promise in 3:15 is the same one that runs through the entire bible. Just as the sun shoots forth a few rays at day break and then slowly grows to it's full brightness so God's promise unfolds through Abraham, Moses, David, The Prophets until the appearing of Christ who is the fulfillment of all God's promises and the brightness of His glory. There is no difference between Isaac's obedience in laying his son on the alter and our obedience. It is our faith in God that allows us to be obedient and that saves us. They were not saved by faith plus obedience any more than we were. This would suggest that God could be partially appeased by works...
'..knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. ' Gal 2:16
In Genesis 12, we find that God made an unconditional covenant with Abram, that through his seed (Israel), all the families (nations) of the earth would be blessed.
Galatians 3:16 says that the ' seed ' was Christ....
' Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed,"who is Christ.
It was only through Israel because Christ ' the seed ' was born into this lineage. But Galatians clearly says that the promises were made to Christ and that therefore the nations of the Earth would be blessed directly and only through Christ, not Israel per se.
Without going into all the details
Well I think that you owe it to your opponents to go into details.
we know that God will not break His covenant with Israel, but has added certain conditions to that covenant, such as circumcision and the Civil, Moral and Ceremonial Laws of Moses. Their salvation/justification came about by doing the deed/works of the Law by FAITH. Those deeds/works, in themselves, did not have any saving value, however, their FAITH was demonstrated through those deed/works.
So He added to His original covenant. Did He overlook a few things when hastily making the first covenant? Were there a few amendments that He needed to make?
What about this....
And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Gal 3:17
What was the purpose of the law? Was it Justification 2, the sequel?......
What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. Gal 3:19-25
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. Rom 11:6
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. Gal2:16
Through Israel, God had taken a people unto Himself. For one that was a Gentile and wanted to serve the true and living God of Israel, that one had to become a Jew, and place themselves under the Laws of Moses. All of God's blessing to the world were to come through God's chosen people - Israel.
True.
From the OT Scriptures we learn that God was to establish a throne (David's) upon the earth, and that One would sit upon that throne and rule forever. The promises to Abram back in Genesis 12 would be fulfilled. The Gentile nations will be blessed through Abram' seed - Israel.
Umm..true but again to be accurate lets change ' Abram's seed - Israel. ' to ' Abram's seed - Christ. '
When, according to OT prophesy, the time was right for the kingdom to be established upon the earth, God sent His Son into the world, and He was born in the city of Bethlehem. However, the King's subjects rejected Him, and said "we will not have this man rule over us, crucify Him."
Yes ' He came to His own and His own did not receive Him. ' John 1:11
Without going into the details, we know that Israel, as a nation, rejected God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost (Spirit). Therefore, it appears there was no way that the promise to Abram, back in Genesis 12, could be fulfilled. However, God knew/knows, before the creation of the earth, the beginning from the end. He knew what Israel would do, and that they would reject His Son. He used that knowledge as a means to defeat satan, but kept His plans secret.
True.
After the leaders of Israel rejected the Third Person of the Trinity, in the stoning of Stephen, God set the nation of Israel aside, raised up Saul/Paul in Acts 19, to usher in this dispensation of grace, and informed Peter in Acts 10 that Israel was now in a set aside condition.
Maybe a more obvious example of them rejecting the third person of the trinity is when they crucified him? In Acts 10 all Peter was told is that the Gentiles are to receive the gospel as well as Jews. There is no reference whatsoever to Israel being set aside. God raised Paul up in Acts 9 and he did not usher in the dispensation of grace, Christ did. I've cut and pasted from one of my previous posts the following, demonstrating that Paul was a preacher to whoever listened, Jew or Gentile, but
' ....the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them.....many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul..' Acts 13:42-43
He preached in many cities to both Jew and Gentile. He was the leading minister to the Gentiles. He declares that the..
' salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles '. Acts 28:28.
But not exclusively to the Gentiles as is clear from his original commission....
' Go, for he is a chosen vessel of mine to bear my name before the Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. ' Acts 9:15
....yes, all the Apostles were for all nations all nations
Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name, Rom 1:5
His message was the same as Peter's. Let's look at Gal 2:11-21
Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. "But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."
Did Paul not understand dispensationalist thought? Did he not understand that Peter had a different gospel? Did he fail to recognise that Peter was commanded to preach faith plus works? No they had one message for one people, the church.
We know that because God showed Peter, in a vision, that he was not longer to consider the Gentiles as "unclean." Why, because Israel is now on equal footing with the Gentiles that were set aside back at the Tower of Babel. The Jews and Gentiles are now without distinction. Paul explains this in Romans 11:7-12, and in verse 32 he says "For God hath concluded them all (Jews and Gentiles) in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all."
This seem contradictory ( and nonsensical ) to me. You say Israel are on an equal footing with the Gentiles and that there is no distinction. But you also say that they have two different methods of salvation, and, that one is temporarily set aside and the other is in favor with God.
With the setting aside of Israel, as a nation, the covenants that God made with Israel, are now in limbo, and not in force. They will not be honored until Israel, as a nation accepts the One whom they have pierced, and recognize Him as their Messiah. The world is not being blessed through Israel as a nation.
Most of this I have already addressed. But I have a few things to add. The world was to be blessed through Christ, an Israelite, born under the law. He was the seed of Abraham.
Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed,"who is Christ. And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Gal 3:16-18
I'm fully aware of the habit of dispensationalists to take the most obscure scripture literally and to twist the most explicit and lucid ones. But here Paul interprets the promise or covenant made with Abraham.
Our blessings of salvation/justification are not now bestowed upon us through the covenants to Israel, but through the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelations of the mystery revealed to the Apostle Paul, and was kept secret since the world began. It is based upon our FAITH and trust in the Cross work of Christ. It is a free gift of God matchless GRACE, No deed/works of the Law by FAITH.
Again most of this has been refuted but I will add Paul's opinion of how grace came to all....
Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all Rom 4:16
Amen
Can't you see that God took two believing "set aside" peoples and MADE the "one new man" of Eph.2 15, known now as "the Body of Christ." The Body of Christ is a "new creation,"
No. Israel, the children of the promise, those who had faith as Abraham produced the Christ who brought salvation to the whole world.
That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as seed. Rom 9:8
continued....
Dispy in Red-
From the fall of Adam, and onward to Abram, man became exceedingly wicked. During this time, there were only Gentiles in the earth. Because these Gentiles became so wicked, and didn't keep God in their heart, God set them aside at the Tower of Babel (Genesis 11). Even through these rebellious time, God has always shown His grace by providing a means in which one could be saved/justified. It was by believing/doing, by faith, what God required at that point in time in human history.
I disagree. God's method of salvation has always been the same because His character ( Holy, Just, Loving ) is absolute and unchangeable. Man's condition since the fall has also not changed. God's justice can only be satisfied by faith in the sacrificial death of Christ...
' for there is no other name under heaven given by which we must be saved ' Acts 4:12
Now I concede that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob lacked an explicit knowledge of the cross but still had enough knowledge of Christ for his faith to lay hold of.
' The Angel who has redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads..' Gen 48:16...
' Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad. John 8:56
' These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them. '
Heb 11:13-16
They, like us desired a heavenly country, they saw them afar off. Notice also that Abel, Enoch and Noah etc who lived before Abraham are described as not receiving the promises. This, I think, would support my belief that the original promise in 3:15 is the same one that runs through the entire bible. Just as the sun shoots forth a few rays at day break and then slowly grows to it's full brightness so God's promise unfolds through Abraham, Moses, David, The Prophets until the appearing of Christ who is the fulfillment of all God's promises and the brightness of His glory. There is no difference between Isaac's obedience in laying his son on the alter and our obedience. It is our faith in God that allows us to be obedient and that saves us. They were not saved by faith plus obedience any more than we were. This would suggest that God could be partially appeased by works...
'..knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. ' Gal 2:16
In Genesis 12, we find that God made an unconditional covenant with Abram, that through his seed (Israel), all the families (nations) of the earth would be blessed.
Galatians 3:16 says that the ' seed ' was Christ....
' Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed,"who is Christ.
It was only through Israel because Christ ' the seed ' was born into this lineage. But Galatians clearly says that the promises were made to Christ and that therefore the nations of the Earth would be blessed directly and only through Christ, not Israel per se.
Without going into all the details
Well I think that you owe it to your opponents to go into details.
we know that God will not break His covenant with Israel, but has added certain conditions to that covenant, such as circumcision and the Civil, Moral and Ceremonial Laws of Moses. Their salvation/justification came about by doing the deed/works of the Law by FAITH. Those deeds/works, in themselves, did not have any saving value, however, their FAITH was demonstrated through those deed/works.
So He added to His original covenant. Did He overlook a few things when hastily making the first covenant? Were there a few amendments that He needed to make?
What about this....
And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Gal 3:17
What was the purpose of the law? Was it Justification 2, the sequel?......
What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. Gal 3:19-25
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. Rom 11:6
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. Gal2:16
Through Israel, God had taken a people unto Himself. For one that was a Gentile and wanted to serve the true and living God of Israel, that one had to become a Jew, and place themselves under the Laws of Moses. All of God's blessing to the world were to come through God's chosen people - Israel.
True.
From the OT Scriptures we learn that God was to establish a throne (David's) upon the earth, and that One would sit upon that throne and rule forever. The promises to Abram back in Genesis 12 would be fulfilled. The Gentile nations will be blessed through Abram' seed - Israel.
Umm..true but again to be accurate lets change ' Abram's seed - Israel. ' to ' Abram's seed - Christ. '
When, according to OT prophesy, the time was right for the kingdom to be established upon the earth, God sent His Son into the world, and He was born in the city of Bethlehem. However, the King's subjects rejected Him, and said "we will not have this man rule over us, crucify Him."
Yes ' He came to His own and His own did not receive Him. ' John 1:11
Without going into the details, we know that Israel, as a nation, rejected God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost (Spirit). Therefore, it appears there was no way that the promise to Abram, back in Genesis 12, could be fulfilled. However, God knew/knows, before the creation of the earth, the beginning from the end. He knew what Israel would do, and that they would reject His Son. He used that knowledge as a means to defeat satan, but kept His plans secret.
True.
After the leaders of Israel rejected the Third Person of the Trinity, in the stoning of Stephen, God set the nation of Israel aside, raised up Saul/Paul in Acts 19, to usher in this dispensation of grace, and informed Peter in Acts 10 that Israel was now in a set aside condition.
Maybe a more obvious example of them rejecting the third person of the trinity is when they crucified him? In Acts 10 all Peter was told is that the Gentiles are to receive the gospel as well as Jews. There is no reference whatsoever to Israel being set aside. God raised Paul up in Acts 9 and he did not usher in the dispensation of grace, Christ did. I've cut and pasted from one of my previous posts the following, demonstrating that Paul was a preacher to whoever listened, Jew or Gentile, but
' ....the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them.....many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul..' Acts 13:42-43
He preached in many cities to both Jew and Gentile. He was the leading minister to the Gentiles. He declares that the..
' salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles '. Acts 28:28.
But not exclusively to the Gentiles as is clear from his original commission....
' Go, for he is a chosen vessel of mine to bear my name before the Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. ' Acts 9:15
....yes, all the Apostles were for all nations all nations
Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name, Rom 1:5
His message was the same as Peter's. Let's look at Gal 2:11-21
Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. "But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."
Did Paul not understand dispensationalist thought? Did he not understand that Peter had a different gospel? Did he fail to recognise that Peter was commanded to preach faith plus works? No they had one message for one people, the church.
We know that because God showed Peter, in a vision, that he was not longer to consider the Gentiles as "unclean." Why, because Israel is now on equal footing with the Gentiles that were set aside back at the Tower of Babel. The Jews and Gentiles are now without distinction. Paul explains this in Romans 11:7-12, and in verse 32 he says "For God hath concluded them all (Jews and Gentiles) in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all."
This seem contradictory ( and nonsensical ) to me. You say Israel are on an equal footing with the Gentiles and that there is no distinction. But you also say that they have two different methods of salvation, and, that one is temporarily set aside and the other is in favor with God.
With the setting aside of Israel, as a nation, the covenants that God made with Israel, are now in limbo, and not in force. They will not be honored until Israel, as a nation accepts the One whom they have pierced, and recognize Him as their Messiah. The world is not being blessed through Israel as a nation.
Most of this I have already addressed. But I have a few things to add. The world was to be blessed through Christ, an Israelite, born under the law. He was the seed of Abraham.
Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed,"who is Christ. And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Gal 3:16-18
I'm fully aware of the habit of dispensationalists to take the most obscure scripture literally and to twist the most explicit and lucid ones. But here Paul interprets the promise or covenant made with Abraham.
Our blessings of salvation/justification are not now bestowed upon us through the covenants to Israel, but through the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelations of the mystery revealed to the Apostle Paul, and was kept secret since the world began. It is based upon our FAITH and trust in the Cross work of Christ. It is a free gift of God matchless GRACE, No deed/works of the Law by FAITH.
Again most of this has been refuted but I will add Paul's opinion of how grace came to all....
Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all Rom 4:16
Amen
Can't you see that God took two believing "set aside" peoples and MADE the "one new man" of Eph.2 15, known now as "the Body of Christ." The Body of Christ is a "new creation,"
No. Israel, the children of the promise, those who had faith as Abraham produced the Christ who brought salvation to the whole world.
That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as seed. Rom 9:8
continued....
