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REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY

Discussion in 'Dispensationalism' started by Choir Loft, May 27, 2018.

  1. Choir Loft

    Choir Loft Member

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    Subject of this post is Replacement Theology, also known as Supersessionism.

    Supersessionism is a vague heresy that suggests the church replaced Israel in the divine master plan of redemption.

    There is a great deal of confusion about the terminology, but Darby's Dispensationalism is definitely associated with it. Replacement theology/supersessionism may not appear verbatim in statements of position, but it has infected Christian doctrine in every western denomination. Forms of it are accepted and adopted by the Vatican as well as most Protestant churches. Non-denominational churches embrace it because there exists no mechanism for doctrinal review for them. JND's promoted heresies include but are not limited to; rapture, tribulation doctrine associated with rapture, Calvinism/predestination (*), rejection of imputed righteousness of Christ and vicarious obedience of Christ.

    Basically stated the heresy of Replacement Theology/Supersessionism assumes the church replaced or succeeded Israel in whole or in part with regard to God's plan of redemption and End Times eschatology. None of it is Biblical. Darby's Dispensationalism and John Calvin's treatment of predestination are primary misinterpretations of Biblical intent and the divine plan of redemption.

    Christ is the root. Jesus saves, not the church.

    According to Romans some of the natural branches were separated from the root. (Romans 11:19) Natural branches is a reference to Israel and Jews. Paul states in 11:17 that wild branches were grafted in or added onto the root (Jesus). The wild branches are a reference to gentiles - the church. Therefore according to Romans both wild and natural branches co-exist together on the same root - Jesus. (Galations 3:28) Any suggestion that wild branches have replaced natural branches is totally unBiblical and cannot be justified anywhere in scripture. Therefore Replacement Theology/Supersessionism is false, if not smelling badly of anti-semitic bias.

    BIG problem with replacement theology and all its barren children is that it denies Biblical passages that insist BOTH Jews and Christians can co-exist as co-inheritors in Christ Jesus. The answer to the dilemma posited by Calvin lies in this simple explanation - both predestination and free will are true. Both commingle in the Kingdom of God. How can this be?

    For you are a holy nation to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the nations on the earth, to be His own." - Deuteronomy 7:6

    "Many are called, but few are chosen." - Jesus as quoted by Matthew 22:14

    Who are 'the chosen'?

    The chosen, those predestined and chosen by God are the Jews
    - the natural branches attached to the root Jesus Christ. Any good Calvinist can cough up a dozen verses to support the idea that certain people were chosen of God before the foundation of the world. What they generally don't admit is that these chosen folks are Jews - through whom the world would be blessed.

    "I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” - Genesis 12:3

    Who are the called?

    Gentiles, on the other hand, have been given the freedom of choosing or denying the gift of eternal life in Christ Jesus. If a gentile/wild branch accepts this wonderful gift, then he or she is grafted onto the true vine Jesus Christ along with the natural branches - the Jews.

    I will sow her for Myself in the land. I will also have compassion on her who had not obtained compassion, And I will say to those who were not My people, 'You are My people!' And they will say, 'You are my God!'" - Hosea 2:23

    In this is the mystery of the divine plan of redemption revealed, not that the church could lord it over Israel or anyone else but so that gentiles could inherit the blessings of the Kingdom of Heaven along with Israel - as brothers and sisters in the grace of God.

    This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. - Ephesians 3:6

    All this talk of togetherness gives no evidence at all to support statements or doctrines or attitudes of replacement of church over Israel or Jew over gentile.

    On the other hand hate and pride is a big motivator for accepting Replacement Theology. Pride is the motivation for church claims of replacing Israel in the divine plan, but spiritual hubris is that which empowers the devil and all its followers - including but not limited to those who hate Israel to the point of excluding them from consideration as brethren in Christ.

    that's me, hollering from the choir loft.....

    (*) Calvin's concept of predestination has been modified to some extent through the years, but it's basic idea is that some people are predestined by God as chosen for redemption before they were born and others damned by divine decree before they were born. Much debate using scripture to support arguments both for and against predestination has been employed through the intervening centuries.

    The fact that Calvin's ideology is based upon anti-semitic ideas as well as Roman Catholic exclusivity has infected his doctrine to the point that it cannot be accepted as viable. Jews aren't even on Calvin's radar. If they were, he might have seen the light of who is predestined and who has free will. As it is Johnny seems to have been reading scripture with only one eye open.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2018
  2. Hank77

    Hank77 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Was Noah chosen?
     
  3. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    This is absolutely, 100% incorrect. Replacement Theology, which is also known as Supersessionism, is exactly the opposite of what Darby taught.

    Dispensationalism and Supersessionism are polar opposites. Do a little homework before you continue to spew such nonsense.
     
  4. Choir Loft

    Choir Loft Member

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    The answer ought to be obvious. Why do you ask?
     
  5. Hank77

    Hank77 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Noah was neither a Jew or an Israelite.
     
  6. Choir Loft

    Choir Loft Member

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    An opinion of John Nelson Darby has been formed out of personal preference in disregard of the historic record of the effect of his work. Specifically I refer to the corrupting influence he had upon American Protestant ideology. Posts here and elsewhere argue fine points of rumor and conjecture regarding his work, but neglect its effect upon the church in the course of history. It's one's privilege to worship personalities, but justification of persons isn't what the Kingdom of God is all about.
    (1 Corinthians 1:11-13)

    It has been said that the greatest evil can result when a good man works for the wrong reasons.(1)

    No account I've ever read about John Nelson Darby ever claimed he was anything but a devout and selfless man. Agreement on this point is undisputed. However, a man is known by his fruits. It is only within the framework of the fruit of one's deeds that his past and his work can be measured. In the end, for whatever reasons motivated him, Darby's thoughts permanently infected and debauched American Protestant ideology.

    Something very strange happened in the middle of the 18th century in America. It wasn't all Darby's doing, though he played a large part in it. A paradigm shift changed the way Americans interpreted the gospel.

    In America, the burning issues that resulted in the Civil War erupted into murderous and destructive conflict. Virtually all of American society, philosophy, history and future was affected by it. Spiritually as well as politically and socially these events changed the country. Ripples of it spread across the world, but its effect remained in the hearts and minds of Americans long after the century that saw it passed into history.

    American spiritualism, as well as a marked increase in demonic activity of every sort known and unknown to man, is reported in the annals of history. It became widely popular even amongst the clergy to participate in seances, to consult tarot readers and palmists, to engage in the use of ouija boards and so on. For the American church, its consequence was a change in conventional interpretations of the Bible - of the gospel as it had been previously understood.

    Many saw the rise of cult groups and aberrations of the gospel such as those of Darby as a threat to the seemingly desperate search of many Christians for a solid spiritual foundation upon which to build their faith. Large portions of the nation had been burned to the ground. The dead and wounded were everywhere and nothing remained except the conviction that God had visited judgment upon the land for the sin of slavery. Redemption was sought in the paths of religion as well as in southern rebuilding and settlement of the lawless west. Corruption affected every path, but some attempts were made to correct the abuses suffered by the gospel message. One attempt was called the Fundamentals of the faith. To this day those who hold these points to be true are called Fundamentalists.

    Darby wasn't one of them.

    Americans wanted a reason for the historic disruption that had visited them and they wanted to hear a glittering divine purpose in the midst of the ruin of war. Many men provided explanations, as did Darby. In an otherwise honorable attempt to explain Biblical history to Americans, to make sense of seemingly senseless barbarity, Darby tried to provide an explanation.(2)

    Darby's literature and lectures dishonored Biblical context, failed to consider the role of Israel in history and almost totally revised eschatological patterns of the End Times. Desperate for any gospel, even a false one, that salved their heartaches the American people bought Darby's snake oil - lock, stock and barrel. They continue to support his ideas to this day despite the implications of the events of actual history and opposition to it by modern logic as we know it.

    One may hold Darby to be some sort of latter day saint, but if truth be told he employed his personal bias to dissuade Christians from seeking the truth of the church's place in history especially where Israel is concerned. The future was not Darby's to foretell. Salesmanship was his gift, not prophecy. He really did mess it up.

    In truth it is Christ who is the root. Israel and the gentiles are only branches of His Kingdom. To date, God's purposes have not been altered by any fiction of man despite many clever efforts to do so.

    that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

    (1) This is true for men who were deemed good by the generation that supported them. Such men included Napoleon Bonaparte, Robert E. Lee, Adolph Hitler, Joseph Stalin and John Nelson Darby.

    (2) Oddly the same thing happened to the Jews when they were taken captive to Babylon. Rabbis invented the Talmud, an aberration of divine Law and Jewish tradition to explain the causes of their judgment and to prevent it happening again.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2018
  7. Choir Loft

    Choir Loft Member

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    Noah was chosen by God to survive the flood He sent. Those who were not chosen perished. This is simple arithmetic. One does not need to be a rocket scientist or prophet to discern truth as revealed by cause and effect.

    The work of the hand of God is thus accomplished. It is only the realization of man that gives such a miraculous delivery a name - the appropriate term in this instance is 'chosen'.

    As it was then, so it is now. Those that are appointed to the Kingdom of God are of two parts; chosen and called. The chosen are Jews. The called are gentiles who are invited to make a decision to accept Christ. If they accept Christ's invitation, they are adopted into the Kingdom of God. Those that reject this most generous gift of God have nowhere else to go. The flood of passing time overwhelms their mortal bodies and they eventually suffer the Second Death as well as a natural death.
    (Romans 6:23)
    (Revelation 2:11)

    Noah's family were also chosen in as much as they survived with him in the ark.

    Noah had three sons of which Shem was one.
    Shem had sons of which Arphaxad was one.

    The line of Arphaxad continued through his sons and their sons;
    Salah
    Eber
    Terah
    Abraham

    Abraham was the first Hebrew, the chosen of God. As it is written, all of Israel will be saved.
    (Romans 11:26)

    There is no such promise for gentiles, only that those gentiles who choose to accept Jesus the King of the Jews will be saved.
    (Matthew 6:24)
    (Romans 10:9)
    (Romans 10:13)

    It is not wise to spurn the love of God and reject His anointed Son Jesus.
    (Romans 6:23)

    The only prayer God hears from a sinner is the prayer of repentance.

    Time is short. The season to repent and humbly beg God for salvation is now.
    (Psalm 51)

    Hope this helps.

    that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2018
  8. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    The "information" you have been reading about Darby is almost 100% false. There are many outright lies circulation about what he said and what he taught. But his actual writings are readily avaiilable n the internet, at www.stempublishing.com, as well as in numerous other places. And if you were to bother to actually read what he wrote, you would see just how false your information has been.

    I am a student of history, not just of Darby and his associates. And I can tell you with absolute certainty, that most of Darby's eschatological views were taught, and clearly taught, in the both the oldest Christian commentary on Bible prophecy (of any significant length) that has survived to the present day, and the very oldest Christian commentary on scripture (as opposed to a commentary on a scriptural subject) that has survived to the present day. As I have already posted at length about these subjects, right in this sub-forum, I will not post them again here.

    I do not say this with any notion of claiming that the age of these documents enhances their authority, but only as hard proof that Darby's ideas were not new at all.

    But you are still completely wrong about what Darby taught. In actual fact, the ideas you are advocating are exactly what he taught. If you were to bother to actually read what he wrote, instead of what others say about him, you would see that this is true.

    But I am not going to continue to argue with someone who has conclusively proved that he is almost totally ignorant of the facts he is arguing about.
     
  9. Choir Loft

    Choir Loft Member

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    I never claimed Darby's false doctrine wasn't accepted and taught widely. In point of fact that's what I've been saying all along. I suspect those portions of my post, as well as Darby's habit of ignoring huge portions of scripture, have been deliberately ignored. Publication of Darby's false doctrine doesn't validate it as truth. It just provides rent money for the author.

    It's fairly easy to continually say someone is lying about data that is readily available to anyone who wants to take the effort to look it up. I can just as easily claim that arguments to the contrary are lies as well.

    Supersessionism is indeed related to Replacement Theology, which Darby as well as the Roman Catholic church and even Islam has taught. Let the reader research these definitions. One will not have to go far to learn the similarities and foggy differences.

    Some other religious theory has replaced Israel as God's revelatory and redemptive body on earth. That's how Replacement Theology's story goes in its most basic form. There are different names and histories of each and every doctrine or name, but basically they're all the same in that they seek to Replace Israel and corrupt the church's understanding of it's role in God's plan of redemption. The Bible clearly teaches that through Israel would God's plan of redemption be revealed. (Genesis 22:18)

    Ideologies of human design tend to ignore the revealed plans of heaven for their own purposes, which are generally financial and control issues and masked hatred of heaven's purposes. (John 3:19) Lies and character assassination await those who attempt to clarify the issues.

    Posts claiming to deny these facts dance around the basic issue of replacement theology or supersessionism or dispensationalism's progressive revelation(*) or whatever-ism by substituting other definitions, thereby muddying the argument. Isn't it the devil's work to oppose accepted definitions with caliginous argument and accusation? As always, it's up to the reader to decide.

    My purpose here is to educate the reader as to the nature of Replacement Theology. Arguments that obfuscate the issue prove that the devil doesn't want the truth to be known. This truth, that dark forces don't want known, is that the church has NOT replaced Israel in the Kingdom of God. In truth and according to scripture the church has been adopted into the Kingdom of God with Israel sharing its blessings from God unto all gentiles who would accept it.

    Consider studying the Bible and praying on this issue. I think the reader will be well able to arrive at his or her own conclusions. When you do, however, don't be surprised when someone tells you you're lying about what God has shown you. The world has always hated those who follow Christ's truth. It always will. (John 15:18)

    Only one question; how much dog poo do you put in your brownie mix?

    Dog poo looks a lot like brownie mix. How much dog poo is acceptable to mix into your brownies to serve to your family - a tablespoon, a teaspoon or a quarter teaspoon? How much poo will you accept in your brownie mix?

    False doctrine is like dog poo in your brownie mix. How many lies are acceptable? As with the brownies you serve your family, the choice is up to you, but I think the reader knows my preferences quite clearly.

    Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. - 2 Timothy 2:15

    that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

    (*) Dispensationalism's progressive revelation denies the words and teachings of the Old Covenant (Israel's role in redemption) and instead works its ideology forward into future time (Replacing Israel with the church) suggesting fictitious explanations events and evacuations the Bible did not intend. I actually heard a fanatical dispensationalist say that the pages of the Old Covenant ought to be torn out of the Bible and burned. That's how crazy some adherents can be about Darby's false doctrine.

    Darby's dispensationalism is at root a very anti-semitic interpretation of future events, which is why it bears such a remarkable similarity to Muslim eschatology.

    Anti-dispensationalists utilize the Old Covenant to illuminate and explain and understand the New Covenant and God's plan of redemption. Without the Law there is no understanding of the total work of grace and redemption, yet dispensationalism denies it by substituting Darby's own skewed interpretation of scripture as well as denying those portions of scripture that disprove Darby's doctrine.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2018
  10. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    You are accusing Darby of teaching Supersessionism4. But, like yourself, he totally rejected and fought against this doctrine. But whatever Darby taught is actually immaterial. The fact is, anyone and everyone that knows even the slightest amount about both Dispensationalism and Supersessionism knows that they are diametrically opposed. Your "information" on this matter is totally incorrect.

    Dispensationalism teaches that God is not finished with Israel, that He will again bless them in a future day. And it is based upon interpreting the explicit statements of Bible prophecy literally. So it teaches that in a future day, God will bring all of the ancient nation of Israel back to their ancient homeland, and they will be converted to a true faith in the Lord Jesus, after which God will again bless them in their ancient homeland.

    Supersessionism, on the other hand, teaches that God is finished with Israel, that "the church" has completely replaced Israel in God's dealings, (which is why it is also called Replacement Theology) and interprets all the explicit statements of a future blessing for Israel to mean "the church," and all the explicitly stated prophecies about being brought back to the land as meaning being taken to heaven.

    These two systems of interpretation could hardly be more exactly the opposite. There is absolutely no relationship between them.

    This is elementary eschatology. and anyone who is ignorant of these two facts does not even qualify as a student half way through a beginning course in Eschatology. in continuing to equate them, you are only proving that you do not even have an elementary knowledge of your subject.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2018
  11. Choir Loft

    Choir Loft Member

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    I thought you weren't going to argue any more (post 48)? hmmmm

    This is fun, isn't it?

    Apparently you can't resist the impulse to insist that ideologies suggesting something other than Biblical assertions should be adopted, that personalities such as Darby matter more than Christ and that anti-semitic attitudes need to be masked in academic vitriol and character assassination, while serving as the actual motivation for promulgation of deceitful and destructive doctrine.

    I hope the reader is following this series of comments with regard to their underlying motivations. Ask yourself this question; what spiritual power or what worldly system would seek to replace God's revealed Will with fabrication and confusion and misdirection? This friendly chat really isn't about Darby is it?

    - Your tactic is to reiterate specifics and focus upon incidentals so as to fog the issue and ignore the implications of its general scope - to substitute something other than Israel in the divine plan for the redemption of humanity.

    - My premise, as always, is to examine the big picture using minor points as illustrations.

    One can call it Replacement theology or supersessionism or substitutionism. Whatever label you fix on the deception ultimately seeks to convolute and confuse the context of Biblical assertions about the place of Israel and the gentiles in the Kingdom of God. It seeks to put something else in its place - a false gospel.

    Is this the Great Deception predicted by the Bible? hmmm We shall see.

    Again - the Kingdom of God has as its root the anointed One of God, Jesus Christ or Yeshuah ha-mashiach as He is called in the Hebrew tongue. Upon this root was caused to grow the chosen people of God, Israel. Determined by God to play a major role in the redemption of man, Israel was created to be the blessing that humanity needed - the family through which salvation would be born into the world. The Bible teaches that despite God's many arguments with Jewish disobedience He never cut them off completely. God always left a remnant and never intended Israel to be the only branch in His Kingdom. The gospel of Jesus teaches that God demonstrated His mercy and love toward humanity by offering salvation to everyone who would accept it voluntarily - to join WITH Israel in the blessings of the Kingdom of God.

    There is no part or portion in all of scripture which even remotely suggests Israel would be removed, destroyed or replaced by some other group or nation or religion. In fact, the Bible shows us what a false gospel might look like. Replacement theologies and all its cousins match the description pretty well. Here are a few benchmarks to consider;

    A false gospel exalts man. What has all this chatter about replacement theology been about? On one side, the Bible. On the other side, a man and what he insisted the gospel ought to be. But its not about the man. It never was.
    (Romans 3:11)
    (Ephesians 2:1)
    (Ephesians 1:11)

    A false gospel claims to save mankind from temporal afflictions. False gospels teach some sort of replacement method of inspiration/meditation or even suggest a miraculous evacuation from times of trouble INSTEAD OF reliance upon grace as being sufficient for the day in the midst of trouble and affliction.
    (2 Corinthians 2:10-11)
    (2 Corinthians 12:9)

    Emphasis upon the Holy Spirit as a replacement for Christ. The fascination with spiritual mysticism and experiences isn't confined to Christian abuse. It's pretty common throughout humanity. The false gospel of John Nelson Darby was born at a time when spiritualism was popular in America. It still is, by the way.
    (John 16:14-15)
    (Matthew 16:4)
    (Philippians 2:9-11)

    A false gospel is attractive to the world. Cloaked in half-truths and innuendos and rabidly defended by its disciples, such gospels seek more immediate results than those which grow gradually by the Hand of God in the life of the believer. The world is impatient and wants its blessings immediately. The Bible teaches patience and the ultimate certainty of sanctification in Christ Jesus.
    (1 Peter 2:8)
    (1 Corinthians 1:18)

    A false gospel is not derived from scripture. Replacement theology and all its corrupted cousins teach that scripture is insufficient to receive or understand the grace of God - and insist upon acceptance of an alternative ideology - as we have seen here repeatedly expressed by one of its most vehement adherents.
    (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

    In the greater scheme of things there can be no substitute for doctrine based upon God's Word. One cannot rip away the Old Covenant so as to arrive at a new revelation and one cannot add fantastic predictions and interpretations and fanciful events to justify dogmas that in the end are merely devices by the Enemy to deceive the saints and debauch their faith.

    Truth is that which is consistent with what is. - Merriam Webster

    One cannot replace the gospel of Jesus Christ with false doctrines, racist bias and and science fiction as a mechanism to determine truth. The State of Israel is the Hand of God working in the world today for the benefit and blessing of Jew and gentile alike.

    May God bless Israel and cause them to prosper as He holds them in the palm of His mighty hand.


    The Jews are an ancient people and a modern state revived for the third time in history by the Hand of God SO AS to bless all those who aren't Jews, but who will accept the gospel of Jesus Christ as their own. There is not nor shall there ever be anything approaching a replacement or substitute for Israel either in the spiritual realm or in the world. Any ideology by any other name that presumes such a scenario is a lie, a false gospel and a deception of hell itself.

    that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2018
  12. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    And that is exactly what I, and all Dispensationalists, say. The truth is, that you are teaching the central elements of Dispensationalism.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2018
  13. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

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    Question: "What is replacement theology / supersessionism?"

    Answer:
    "Replacement" theology (also known as supersessionism) essentially teaches different views of the relationship between the ""Church"" (Body of Christ) and NATION ""Israel""...
    ONE view: the ""Church"" is completely different and distinct from NATION ""Israel""

    The view that ""Israel"" and the ""Church"" are different is clearly taught in the NT.
    Biblically speaking...the two are never to be confused or used interchangeably.
    ...the ""Church"" is an entirely new creation that came into being on the day of Pentecost and
    will continue until it is taken to heaven at the "rapture"
    (FOR "RAPTURO" SEE: Matthew 24: 29-31; Ephesians 1:9-11; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17; 1 Thessalonians 1:7 ).

    The "Church" has no relationship to the curses and blessings for "Israel".
    The covenants, promises, and warnings are valid only for "Israel".
    NATION "Israel" has been temporarily set aside in God's program during these past 2000 years of dispersion.
    (due to spiritual rejection of Jesus as the Divine Messiah)

    Matthew 23:37 [ Jesus' Lament over His people]
    “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!
    How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling!

    After the "rapturo", God will restore "Israel" as the primary focus of His plan.
    The first event at this time is the "tribulation" (Matthew 24; Revelation chapters 6-19).
    The world will be judged for rejecting Christ,
    while NATION "Israel" is prepared through the trials of the "great tribulation"
    for the "Second Coming" of the Messiah.
    Then, when Christ does return to the earth, at the end of the tribulations,
    "Israel" will be ready to receive Him.
    The remnant of "Israel" which survives the tribulation will be saved.
    Jesus the King / Lord will establish His kingdom on this earth with Jerusalem as its capital.
    With Christ reigning as King for 1000 years,
    "Israel" will be the leading nation, and representatives from all nations will come to Jerusalem
    to honor and worship the King—Jesus the Christ, The Divine Messiah.
    The "Church" will return with Christ and will reign with Him for a literal thousand years (Revelation 20:1-5).

    The "Church" has not replaced "Israel" in God's plan.
    While God may be focusing His attention primarily on the "Church" in this dispensation / age of grace,
    God has not forgotten "Israel" and will one day restore "Israel"
    to His intended role as the NATION He has chosen (Romans chapters 9-11).

    What is replacement theology / supersessionism? ...edited and placement of emphasis is MINE
     
  14. Choir Loft

    Choir Loft Member

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    I've reproduced several main points from post #53 so that they may be addressed separately with as little redundancy as possible.

    Replacement theology, in all its toxic forms or names asserts that Israel as a political entity or nation and as a people are removed or temporarily removed from the divine plan. Repeated attempts to justify this form of anti-semitism in whole or in part have been on display in this thread as well as an active attempt to fog the issue.

    The truth is plainly stated, though easy it seems for the enemy to muddy. Here it is again;(1)
    1. The root of the Kingdom of God is Christ Jesus.
    2. Biblical text uses the allegory of a grape vine to illustrate that Jews are branches of the Kingdom.
    3. Some of the branches were broken off because of disobedience so as to make room for gentiles.
    4. Jews will eventually be grafted in or returned to the root, the Kingdom.

    Gentiles and Israel are not different.(2) If gentiles and Israel are part of the root - JESUS - then how might they be different? Is the church subject to a different Law? Indeed it is not. The same Law applies to all - meaning that which was delivered to Moses called the ten commandments. Dogma stating there is some difference between branches and root or stating that law doesn't apply is attempting to justify licentiousness and debauchery. That's the ultimate effect when one tries to strip away the divinely established standard of law. Without the Law there is no salvation.

    Stated above is that the church has no relation to Israel either its blessings or curses. Again this is an attempt to debauch the faith. If church and Israel are separate according to Law and/or tradition then there is no salvation and no hope of participation in paradise or the body of Christ - who is STILL A JEW.

    The funniest quote of error in the post is again copied here;
    NATION "Israel" is prepared through the trials of the "great tribulation"
    for the "Second Coming" of the Messiah.


    For those who are unfamiliar with the passage of history, the nation of Israel was established in reality and upon the earth in May of 1948. This past spring celebrated the seventieth anniversary of that event. Waiting for a fake rapture isn't part of the formula because Israel is already here. Lovers of the false doctrine of the rapture have been repeatedly disappointed in the past when predictions of its arrival come and go with regularity. Rapture adherents simply don't get it. Its not true. Those who've attacked Israel with military strategies as well as political manipulations have been thwarted and confused in the past as such attempts will be in future.

    Use of the word messiah is also confusing and misleading. Ha-mashiach is a Hebrew term meaning 'anointed one'. If gentiles are not part of the Kingdom of God as is Israel, then gentiles would have no part in messiah or ha-mashiach as He is called - the branch in other words.

    On the other hand, a great deal of data can be produced to prove that the church is indeed NOT part of the true vine. Indeed it is a part of the demonic representation of satan upon the earth.

    In the end it is for the reader to choose between a church, infested with its own importance and toxic contagion of self-justified debauchery unknown even in the days of Sodom and Gomorrah, or the true vine of Jesus Christ.

    We read a great deal about how the church is different from Israel and how its replaced Israel and the Jews. We read very little of how Christ brings all saints, Jew and gentile, together in salvation under the Law.

    that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

    (*) Pertinent quote from Romans chapter 11:11-21.

    11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
    12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
    13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
    14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
    15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
    16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
    17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
    18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
    19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
    20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
    21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.


    (2) Use of the word 'church' is ambiguous, since church is legally defined as a financial organization with the right to collect income and own property - a tax exempt franchise. A spiritual entity would not hold a warranty deed on real estate nor would it collect and manage money.
     
  15. ralliann

    ralliann christian

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    Have you listened to Gary Demar on this subject? This video is very good between Dr Michael Brown (messianic) and Gary Demar. The problem as Demar points out is the tern "Church" as opposed the term assembly or congregation. He explains that Gentiles are grafted into an already existing assembly made up of Jews (Christians). That the ekklesia (assembly) was not some new concept to Jew's. The Christian assembly was at first exclusively Jew's. What was New was the covenant the Christian assembly preached, and the nations being equals in it. The division between Israel and the church, gives the wrong context. Rather there is the assembly of Christ and the assembly apart from Christ.
    Sentinel Apologetics - Bing video
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2018
  16. Choir Loft

    Choir Loft Member

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    I'm not familiar with Mr. Demar, but I'll have a look anyway just to hear the argument.

    The True Vine - The Root
    It's not an assembly or a congregation that gentiles are grafted into or that Jews grew out of. It's Jesus.

    Jesus is the root, not the congregation. The root is of God. The congregation is of man. The work is of God, not man. Its not about personalities or races. It's about Jesus (Yeshuah ha-mashiach as He is called in Hebrew).

    Despite their many sins and stiff necked attitudes Jews were never fully cut off. [See Romans 11] Elijah complained to God about being alone in his allegiance to heaven, but God assured him that he wasn't alone. God said a remnant had been preserved (7,000). This is a pattern that has been repeated over and over throughout history. God removes most, but not all Jews. He always leaves a remnant. There has never been a time when some Jews were not preserved as part of the root - one or more of the original branches.

    According to the Bible, virtually all the first disciples of Jesus were Jews. Some estimates place the number as high as 25% - 30% of Jews throughout the Roman Empire in the first century.

    "I did not come to abolish the law", Jesus said in Matthew 5:17, "I came to fulfill it."

    Jesus' words tell us that the Law is still in effect. If the Law hasn't changed, what then is the primary difference between the old covenant and the new covenant?

    God With Us

    [Isaiah 7:13-16]

    The passage quoted above is known as the Emmanuel prophecy and is but one of several that points to a new thing in the history of mankind. That new thing is a unilateral promise by God that there would come a time when He would dwell, not just among His people (old covenant, or Mosaic covenant), but in their lives as a personal presence (new covenant of Jesus Christ).

    Waning of the Church

    Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
    - Jesus as quoted by Luke 21:24b

    Central to all Biblical prophecy regarding the redemption of man (including Judeo-Christian AND Muslim eschatology) is Israel in general and Jesus' second coming in particular. Certain signs or mile markers will become evident as history proceeds toward that singular event. One of them is the waning or withering of the church - the 'assembly' as has been referred to earlier.

    Yom Yerushalayim, or Jerusalem Day, is celebrated each June in Israel to commemorate the liberation of Jerusalem by the IDF in 1967. On that occasion the prophecy of Jesus was fulfilled and gentile jurisdiction of Jerusalem ended. The event signaled the end of the times of the gentiles.

    At the same time, the direction of global politics assumed drastic changes. A paradigm shift in the fortunes of mankind struck humanity the following year - 1968. Events hit all of mankind like repeated hammer blows. In the words of a New York Times reporter, "it was one g-d thing after another". [Google 1968] A time line of 1968 events is posted at the end of this post for the reader's information.

    They will act religious, but they will reject the power that could make them godly. - 2 Tim 2:5a

    At the same time, the fortunes of the gentile church began to decline albeit much more slowly.

    On June 21, 1971 TIME Magazine published a cover story about "The Jesus Revolution". Beginning in the late 1960's a Holy Spirit revival swept across America - the last of such things. There has never been one like it since. In answer to this heavenly opportunity the leaders of every major denomination rejected this message from heaven and basically told the Hold Ghost to hit the road. After nearly ten years of activity, He did. Gradually infected by toxic humanism and occult ideology the gospel gradually lost its power.

    And the three men I admire most
    The Father, Son and the Holy Ghost
    They caught the last train for the coast
    The day the music died

    - Don MacLean AMERICAN PIE

    1980's satellite technology supported the rise of the Televangelist - groups of men and women who took personal advantage of gullible individuals, who by that time had no effective religious leadership, diluting the gospel to the extent that it lost legitimacy in the eyes of both the secular and religious world. Never again would the voice of Christian leaders carry as much political and social weight as they once did. The church was dead and vultures of both physical and spiritual nature began to circle over its decomposing corpse.

    "Where will this happen, Lord?" the disciples asked. Jesus replied, "Just as the gathering of vultures shows there is a carcass nearby, so these signs indicate that the end is near." - Jesus as quoted by Luke 17:37

    Today we are witness to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons (1 Tim 4:1) as the corpse of church leadership is torn apart and replaced by destructive dogma and self-important charismatic individuals who preach ideas born of pagan myth or humanistic philosophy.

    Replacement Theology is one of these doctrines of demons.

    that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

    1968 Summary of events

    Jan 31 12:30am
    The Tet Offensive began in Viet Nam.

    Although America won that battle, the nation lost the war.

    It was a watershed experience for America in that a credibility gap opened between Americans and government that never healed. Never again would government statements be so completely accepted by the general population.

    mid-March -
    Massive public demonstrations in London. Upwards of 100,000 people participated in violent public actions which The Times interpreted as nearing insurrection.

    The next day US congress passed a bill severing the dollar from gold backing. Paper money was allowed to float on its' own value.

    April 4th
    Rev. Martin Luther King is assassinated and a week later President Johnson signed the Civil Rights Act into law.

    At the end of April the Broadway musical HAIR began - introducing the world to Post-Modernism, the New Age Movement and Liberation Theology.

    The opening song 'Age of Aquarius' is a popular hit.

    Beginning of May
    Peace talks began between the US and North Viet Nam.

    Mid May
    Internal issues cause the fall of the French government.

    Violence was so severe that President Charles de Gaulle fled to Germany where he dismissed the entire French parliament and government. New elections are held and a new government is put in place. Disturbances end shortly after the announcement is made. Only de Gaulle could have pulled it off.

    June 4th
    Bobby Kennedy is assassinated.

    Conspiracy theories of government involvement, which began on Nov. 22, 1963 with the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, are fueled by incoherent single shooter theories presented by the government and the media concerning the deaths of JFK, RFK and Rev. King. Prior to these assassinations public acceptance of the veracity of such theories never existed. After the assassinations the discussions and debates and suggestions of government duplicity never ceased.

    Conspiracy theories would continue and multiply in the Watergate affair, Iran-Contra affair, 911, the wars in Iraq and the middle east that followed but in mid-1968 the rift in public credibility of the policies of the US government began to be seen as irreparable.

    Public confidence in the integrity of the US government never recovered.

    June 12th
    Motion picture Rosemary's Baby is released. It's the first satanic movie to be widely accepted and applauded by critics and the general public.

    July 1st
    The CIA establishes the Phoenix Program - an official sanction for torture and imprisonment.

    mid-July
    Sadaam Hussein takes power as a result of a coup d'etat in Iraq.

    3rd week of August
    Soviet Union invades Czechoslovakia with over a quarter million troops and at about the same time France exploded its first hydrogen bomb.

    End of August
    John Gordon Mein, US Ambassador to Guatemala, is assassinated on the streets of Guatemala City. 1st ambassador to die in the line of duty.

    October 2nd
    Massacre of Tlatelolco Square in Mexico City. Somewhere between three hundred and a thousand people are shot to death by Mexican authorities.

    October 3rd
    T
    he government of Peru is overthrown in a coup d'etat.

    Mid-October
    The government of Panama is overthrown in a coup d'etat.

    First week of November
    Richard Nixon is elected president.

    Dec 22nd
    Mao Zedong begins the infamous Cultural Revolution in China. Millions die in the blood purges that follow.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2018
  17. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    Dispensationalism.
     
  18. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Your "information" about Darby is as incorrect as your "information" about Dispensationalism. Most of what you have said about either one has been exactly the opposite of the truth.

    Darby stood for the absolute authority of the scriptures, and taught the same fundamentalism as is taught by all fundamentalist churches taught today.

    I am not a worshiper of Darby, nor do I walk in his footsteps. But I do know the actual history of Darby, as I studied it in depth for several years, as part of a controversy in which I was involved some years ago.

    That is why I absolutely know that everything you have said about his doctrine is 100% incorrect, including the claim that he was the originator of the doctrines he popularized.
     
  19. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Choir Loft said:
    The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons." - 1 Timothy 4:1

    The scripture you are referring to specifically stated what specific "doctrines of demons it was referring to.

    1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. 1 Timothy 4:1-5


    This has nothing to do with Dispensationalism. but instead deals with Romanism.
     
  20. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    OK, I accept that. But is seems you agree that the latter times are not the last days as Romanism has been doing that for centuries.
     
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