REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY

Choir Loft

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There is no Jew or Gentile in Christ. We are all God's chosen people. We are all citizens of the Commonwealth of Israel. We can see the type and anti-type. Ruth, a gentile, became a citizen of the nation of Israel with all the same rights, promises, and responsibilities of the naturally born Jewish woman.

Eph. 2:12-17
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
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But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.


imv, both dispensational and replacement theologies have to ignore these scriptures and many more.

The King James version of Ephesians refers to something called a "commonwealth of Israel", but in point of fact the general context of scripture as well as this passage is referring to Christ as the central figure of faith. Other more accurate translations use the word 'citizenship' without expressing some sort of fictional state or nation.

1. One interpretation of the passage may be citizenship as it applies to the Kingdom of Heaven, which Jesus often talked about.

2. An alternative interpretation would be citizenship in the State of Israel - an actual political entity in history as well as the modern age. But since Israel doesn't accept non-converted gentiles as citizens of the state, the Biblical text can only imply the Kingdom of God in Christ.

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. - Romans 2:29

We are NOT ALL GOD'S CHOSEN PEOPLE.

According to the Bible a member of God's chosen people would be a natural born Jew or a Jew who had converted to the faith and tradition. The text quoted in Romans reveals God's attitude about those who've circumcised their heart (surrendered to God in Christ) in that they are considered to be Jews also. Consequently those who have not circumcised their heart or surrendered to Christ are neither Jew nor a chosen person. They are condemned in their sin.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 
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Choir Loft

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Question: "What is replacement theology / supersessionism?"

Answer:
Replacement theology (also known as supersessionism) essentially teaches that the church has replaced Israel in God’s plan. Adherents of replacement theology believe the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people, and God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel. Among the different views of the relationship between the church and Israel are the church has replaced Israel (replacement theology), the church is an expansion of Israel (covenant theology), or the church is completely different and distinct from Israel (dispensationalism/premillennialism).
What is replacement theology / supersessionism?
What is Covenant Theology?
What is new covenant theology?

The thing to remember with dispensational theology is that there is a sharp distinction between Israel and the Church. They are two different people with two different destinies in God’s economy.

This is especially evident in the fact that covenant theology does not see a sharp distinction between Israel and the Church. Both entities are seen as one continuous people of God with one ultimate destiny.

All of that serves as the backdrop to view new covenant theology. As mentioned previously, new covenant theology is a middle point between the two. It shares a lot in common with classic covenant theology, in particular the continuity between the Church and Israel as being one people of God. However, it also differs from covenant theology in that it does not necessarily view the Scriptures as the unfolding of redemption in a covenant of works/covenant of grace framework. Instead, it sees the Scriptures in a more promise/fulfillment paradigm.

As a new covenant theology believer I'm looking forward to.....

11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

They are missing family members. :(


The problem with all the above quoted discussion is misinterpretation and misunderstanding of the nature of divine covenant both old and new.

There is no difference between old and new covenant as far as the Law is concerned.

The funny thing is that most Christians when confronted with this statement have no idea what to do with it. So they run back to whatever bogus doctrine they've swallowed recently and cough it up to justify their ignorance.

Here's a Sunday school question related to the two covenants. Exodus 32 & 34 tells us about Moses receiving the ten commandments not once, but twice. Why did God issue His Law twice? (I'm only referring to the original ten commandments not dietary laws, construction of the tabernacle, etc. all received during several schleps up and down Mt. Sinai.)

Hint; Moses' 2 incidents of receiving the Law is a figure of the Old and New Covenants.
Hint; Jeremiah 31:31-34
Hint; what is the meaning of the name Immanuel?

I did not come to abolish the law, I came to fulfill it.... - Jesus as quoted by Mathew 5:17

The average Christian seems to have no idea what the Law implies either by reason of salvation nor of his or her duty to the Law. Most seem to think that because they've joined a church and do a few good deeds and write a check on a regular basis (or perhaps not so regular) they are good to go as far as God is concerned. Most believe they are saved so that they can live like hell and not risk judgment.(*) Nothing could be further from the truth.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

Replacement theology is, at its root, anti-semitism that justifies hatred of Jews (or simply ignoring them altogether), justifies flirtations with sin and justifies substitution of its own deviant rules of behavior instead of enlightenment of God's purpose (as revealed in Leviticus). It justifies disobedience to the Law.

For it is time for judgment to begin with God's household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? - 1 Peter 4:17

The major problem with all the -isms that are mentioned here is that they apply their own form of religious interpretation to Biblical text. Usually they get it wrong deliberately, or rather their founders do. One has to have a different spin on things if one wants to gather a following. In only a few instances do they ever agree with Biblical teaching. Why? Because people are lazy and usually rely upon their leaders to tell them what to believe.

There is something like the "divine right of Kings" accepted today in which church leaders are somehow placed upon a pedestal and cannot be questioned about their ideology. Great arguments arise not because of scripture but because a leader's words are brought into question. One of the greatest of these is John Nelson Darby.

This snake oil salesman has corrupted more Protestant Christians than anyone prior to the advent of the televangelist. People buy their lies and misconceptions because they're too lazy to study for themselves or even to ask the Holy Spirit for guidance (which will inevitably lead them back to studying for themselves). The Protestant Reformation was based on the individual right of a man to arrive at his own studied conclusions - that the church is not always correct. Unfortunately modern Christians have neglected this great gift in favor of personalities and fake theology.

In the United States, the presentation of the gospel of Jesus Christ has been dumbed down into a series of American shibboleths in which neither spiritual meaning nor intellectual challenge exists. They are nothing more than religious slogans which have less meaning than a greeting card poem.

Therefore judgement has come upon the church because Christians no longer have an idea what sin is or what God's real plan for the world may be.

Case in point is Replacement Theology - "Professing themselves to be wise they became fools. - Romans 1:22

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) I actually heard a Baptist preacher conclude his sermon on grace by saying, "go out and sin this week that grace may abound."
 
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David Kent

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2. An alternative interpretation would be citizenship in the State of Israel - an actual political entity in history as well as the modern age. But since Israel doesn't accept non-converted gentiles as citizens of the state, the Biblical text can only imply the Kingdom of God in Christ.
There are Arabs who are Israeli citizens.
 
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Choir Loft

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Dispensationalism says that there is no hint of the church in the OT and that "The Church Age" is a parenthesis in Israel's history, and is God's "Plan B"

That is a false teaching. The Church has always been God's master plan.

Prove it. Quote chapter and verse.
 
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There are Arabs who are Israeli citizens.

This thread addresses the false doctrine and doctrines similar to Replacement Theology, which asserts the church 'replaced' Israel in the plan of God, in political reality or in other philosophical or ideological statements. The issue of discussion is spiritual philosophical and academic. Acceptance of individuals for actual citizenship in the State of Israel is political.

With regard to citizenship in the political State of Israel here are the current laws and procedures;

LAW OF RETURN - all Jews who return to Israel are automatically declared citizens. The exception to this is Messianic Jews. Messianic Jews are not granted citizenship at any time unless they sign an official disclaimer denying Jesus is Messiah.(*)

CITIZENSHIP BY RESIDENCE - Those who were living in Israel at the time of the British mandate are granted citizenship. This would include members of Arab sects.

CITIZENSHIP BY DESCENT - Children born outside Israel by Israeli citizens are considered to be citizens of Israel.

CITIZENSHIP BY ADOPTION - Children adopted by Israeli parents are considered to be citizens even if the citizen is of arab descent.

CITIZENSHIP BY NATURALIZATION - Applications for naturalization are considered by the Ministry of the Interior. If the person is deemed a threat either by way of physical violence or by way of theological differences, such as a Messianic Jew, their application will be denied. Acceptance is arbitrary.

CITIZENSHIP BY MARRIAGE - A branch of the Law of Return, this article was suspended in 1999.

PROCEDURE FOR OBTAINING CITIZENSHIP - Applications are considered along with required proofs of ancestry by the Minister of the Interior. Acceptance is arbitrary.

DUAL CITIZENSHIP - Allowed under Israeli law. A person may hold citizenship in another nation.

CANCELLATION OF CITIZENSHIP - Israeli citizenship can be cancelled if;
- Citizenship was obtained via false information.
- Commission of an act of breach of loyalty to the state. (treason)
- If a person is a citizen of an enemy state.

Denial of Citizenship - A non-Jew must apply separately and may be denied for several reasons such as health, criminal record, threat to the state, theological position, etc. Denial is arbitrary for non-Jews. Messianic Jews are not allowed to apply.

Therefore according to the laws of citizenship of Israel a person of arab descent may become a citizen or may be allowed to continue citizenship such as those who are grandfathered in.

HERE'S THE CAVEAT.......

Arab citizens are also allowed to be elected as members of the Knesset, the governing parliamentary body of Israel. Arabs with voting privileges in the governing body of Israel can affect passage of laws and ordinances that could subvert the government directly and the nation indirectly.

The Israeli political system is based upon the British parliamentary system, not like that of America. Groups external to the Knesset can insinuate a great deal of influence upon the governing body. For instance, the Roman Catholic church does not have elected representatives in the Knesset. However, the church recently blocked attempts by the Knesset to tax Roman Catholic revenues in Israel by exerting external influence upon the governing body.

Citizenship in the modern state of Israel is a political matter given the fact that Israel now exists in fulfillment of the ancient prophecy of Ezekiel and the hand of God. The spirituality of the matter is in God's hands and it is His revealed will to bless Israel with actual physical existence in the world as well as spiritual power to make it so. The State of Israel exists because God promised it would happen and because He sustains the children of Israel in the ancient land He gave them.

"I will bless those who bless Israel and curse those who curse Israel" - God making promise to Abram in Genesis 12:3

Those who claim the spiritual and physical inheritance of Israel has been replaced by the church are speaking in opposition to the Will of God and may find themselves cursed for it.

just a reminder.....

As for me and my house, we pray and work for the blessings of Israel every day.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) Early in 2018, two members of my Messianic synagogue applied for citizenship. Their applications were denied for this reason.
 
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Choir Loft

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I think Darby was a heretic, but this opening post is FULL of LIES. Darby was dead by the mid 1900's He started his dispensationalism in the first half of the 19th century, the 1800's. He got the idea from Edward Irving. I have read a lot about Darby but there is no suggestion that he consorted with witches. His early colleague, Benjamin Wills Newton, who later split from him, thought Darby was a secret Jesuit , which is probably true as he certainly adopted Jesuit teachings.

If you cannot be more honest in your postings, we cannot believe anything you write. What is the book you refer to and can you quote from it?

There is enough to condemn Darby as a heretic without using lies.

You are correct. My post was a typo. Darby's campaign for Dispensationalism was indeed in the mid-1800's not mid-1900's.

Did you never enter an incorrect number at your keyboard? I've accidentally done it before and I suppose I'll do it again. I was balancing my checkbook once and gave myself one hundred dollars by mistake. Needless to say I paid dearly for that error in terms of overdraft penalties. Will you now send me a bill for typing an incorrect date? Probably not because you know very well what I was writing about, don't you?

There are frequent references to Darby's association with witches in Great Britain. These references are not well documented, though they do indeed exist. In the mid 1800's spiritualism became very popular among secular persons as well as Christian leadership. At the time it was not thought to be illegitimate or a violation of scripture. It became so wide spread that it threatened the fabric of the gospel. The reaction to this was a fundamental return to basic tenants of the gospel and the publication of a series of books called The Fundamentals. Since the beginning of the 20th century, people who support basic Christian beliefs have been known as Fundamentalists.

Darby either founded or became a member of two fellowship groups called the Exclusive Brethren and the Plymouth Brethren. In the beginning the basic ideas of Dispensationalism were discussed and shared by members. Darby basically stole their ideas and published them as his own. Cyrus Scofield, Bible publisher, liked Darby's ideas and included them in his chain reference Bibles where they remain to this day.

I have discovered no information that suggests Darby was a jesuit either in or out of the closet. In fact I've read Darby was Anglo-Irish in terms of religion and tradition. If he or his associates did indeed flirt with jesuit principles then that would make them even more dangerous. Read this portion of the jesuit pledge of allegiance;

I furthermore promise and declare that I will, when opportunity present, make and wage relentless war, secretly or openly, against all heretics, Protestants and Liberals, as I am directed to do, to extirpate and exterminate them from the face of the whole earth; and that I will spare neither age, sex or condition; and that I will hang, waste, boil, flay, strangle and bury alive these infamous heretics, rip up the stomachs and wombs of their women and crush their infants' heads against the walls, in order to annihilate forever their execrable race. That when the same cannot be done openly, I will secretly use the poisoned cup, the strangulating cord, the steel of the poniard or the leaden bullet, regardless of the honor, rank, dignity, or authority of the person or persons, whatever may be their condition in life, either public or private, as I at any time may be directed so to do by any agent of the Pope or Superior of the Brotherhood of the Holy Faith, of the Society of Jesus.

Real holy and respectable guys those jesuits. Don't you agree? Darby was mixed up with a bunch of real nasty fellows. Thank you for inspiring me to do a bit more research on Darby. Every time I do his character looks more demonic.

My error was in typing 1900 instead of 1800 and not a deliberate attempt to promote error (as in the instance of Darby himself). I apologize for the mistake, but doubt that any further documentation on my part will persuade you to abandon your position. I don't think you had any intention of believing anything I wrote anyway - so the whole thing with you is a wash I suppose.

My point, to beat a dead horse, is that Darby was a heretic with regard to many issues that touched the church. His anti-semitism is obvious and his fellowship with doctrines of demons, if not with ambassadors of hell itself, is also obvious. Unfortunately there are those who choose to accept Darby's dogma regardless of Biblical context, logic, questionable personal relationships, desires for acclaim and accolades or spiritual reality.

My intent is to shed light on the lies of one of the greatest false teachers of the last two hundred years. If someone chooses darkness instead it isn't a surprise to me. Jesus said most would do so and His words are as true today as when He first uttered them.

The bottom line here isn't the sad history of John Nelson Darby nor even of his demonic dogma of Dispensationalism. It's really about rabid anti-semitic hatred of Jews both in the secular world and within the church, underlined and emboldened by its own doctrines.

In God's good time it will come to an end, but many will be shocked and awed when it does come for it will not take any form they can accept...or have persuaded themselves to expect.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 
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David Kent

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You are correct. My post was a typo. Darby's campaign for Dispensationalism was indeed in the mid-1800's not mid-1900's.

Did you never enter an incorrect number at your keyboard? I've accidentally done it before and I suppose I'll do it again. I was balancing my checkbook once and gave myself one hundred dollars by mistake. Needless to say I paid dearly for that error in terms of overdraft penalties. Will you now send me a bill for typing an incorrect date? Probably not because you know very well what I was writing about, don't you?

There are frequent references to Darby's association with witches in Great Britain. These references are not well documented, though they do indeed exist. In the mid 1800's spiritualism became very popular among secular persons as well as Christian leadership. At the time it was not thought to be illegitimate or a violation of scripture. It became so wide spread that it threatened the fabric of the gospel. The reaction to this was a fundamental return to basic tenants of the gospel and the publication of a series of books called The Fundamentals. Since the beginning of the 20th century, people who support basic Christian beliefs have been known as Fundamentalists.

Darby either founded or became a member of two fellowship groups called the Exclusive Brethren and the Plymouth Brethren. In the beginning the basic ideas of Dispensationalism were discussed and shared by members. Darby basically stole their ideas and published them as his own. Cyrus Scofield, Bible publisher, liked Darby's ideas and included them in his chain reference Bibles where they remain to this day.

I have discovered no information that suggests Darby was a jesuit either in or out of the closet. In fact I've read Darby was Anglo-Irish in terms of religion and tradition. If he or his associates did indeed flirt with jesuit principles then that would make them even more dangerous. Read this portion of the jesuit pledge of allegiance;

I furthermore promise and declare that I will, when opportunity present, make and wage relentless war, secretly or openly, against all heretics, Protestants and Liberals, as I am directed to do, to extirpate and exterminate them from the face of the whole earth; and that I will spare neither age, sex or condition; and that I will hang, waste, boil, flay, strangle and bury alive these infamous heretics, rip up the stomachs and wombs of their women and crush their infants' heads against the walls, in order to annihilate forever their execrable race. That when the same cannot be done openly, I will secretly use the poisoned cup, the strangulating cord, the steel of the poniard or the leaden bullet, regardless of the honor, rank, dignity, or authority of the person or persons, whatever may be their condition in life, either public or private, as I at any time may be directed so to do by any agent of the Pope or Superior of the Brotherhood of the Holy Faith, of the Society of Jesus.

Real holy and respectable guys those jesuits. Don't you agree? Darby was mixed up with a bunch of real nasty fellows. Thank you for inspiring me to do a bit more research on Darby. Every time I do his character looks more demonic.

My error was in typing 1900 instead of 1800 and not a deliberate attempt to promote error (as in the instance of Darby himself). I apologize for the mistake, but doubt that any further documentation on my part will persuade you to abandon your position. I don't think you had any intention of believing anything I wrote anyway - so the whole thing with you is a wash I suppose.

My point, to beat a dead horse, is that Darby was a heretic with regard to many issues that touched the church. His anti-semitism is obvious and his fellowship with doctrines of demons, if not with ambassadors of hell itself, is also obvious. Unfortunately there are those who choose to accept Darby's dogma regardless of Biblical context, logic, questionable personal relationships, desires for acclaim and accolades or spiritual reality.

My intent is to shed light on the lies of one of the greatest false teachers of the last two hundred years. If someone chooses darkness instead it isn't a surprise to me. Jesus said most would do so and His words are as true today as when He first uttered them.

The bottom line here isn't the sad history of John Nelson Darby nor even of his demonic dogma of Dispensationalism. It's really about rabid anti-semitic hatred of Jews both in the secular world and within the church, which its doctrines prove.

The Jew is the stumbling block of true faith in Christ and of obedience to the Law, which has not been abolished at all. Jesus' own generation first choked on that principle and the gentiles who heard the gospel twisted it to their own purposes. The greatest persecution of believers has come from the church itself - not governments and not Muslims.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
I was only correcting he date to try and stop others copying the error. You know some think that if it is on the internet it must be true.

There were a number of men involved in the early Brethren movement. It seems to have started in Ireland and spread to England. Oxford university was a major centre. In those days, to get a university education you had to be an Anglican. The university was split into two camps, the Churchmen and the Evangelicals or Calvinists. The churchmen managed to get their qualifications even though they were dissolute young men but the Evangelicals found it difficult. Among the churchmen was John Newman Who founded the Oxford Movement, a.k.a. The Tractarians. This was an attempt to lead the C of E back to Rome. He later became cardinal Newman. His brother F W Newman was also at Oxford, I am not sure which camp he was in, he seemed to be an evangelical, but who knows.

Among the Evangelicals was Benjamin Wills Newton, who joined the Brethren, moved to Plymouth and was one of the early founders of the movement in Plymouth. Darby moved in on the group and ousted Newton and took over. The Plymouth Brethren and Exclusive Brethren are one and the same. There were many groups in the Brethren, the Taylorites, the Kelleyites, the Exclusive, and the Open Brethren which I belonged to for some years. Some baptise children, the open are similar to Baptists. Almost all are dispensationalists.

Although Darby disagreed with Newton about church goverment on the face of it, but the real cause was almost certainly because of their different views on prophecy,

My history of the Brethren quotes some unpublished manuscripts known as the Fry MS. I believe they may be available online now. In them Newton says that he never read anything from Darby that a papist could not have written, and in another place that he thought Darby was sent to Oxford by the papists to spy on the evangelicals. On the online version I believe he mentions that he thought Darby was a Jesuit.
After his split with Darby, Newton moved to Bristol and associated with George Mueller of orphanage fame.
 
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David Kent

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Prove it. Quote chapter and verse.
  • Acts 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
 
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David Kent

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Several months ago, we had a preacher who was associated with a Baptist Church in Israel. The congregation was mostly Jewish but the pastor was an Arab.

I used to work with a young Jewess. She said she was saved when visiting Israel (If I remember correctly, she was studying there.) She was invited to a christian meeting and was saved.

Mike Moore who recently retired as secretary to Christian Witness to Israel said that in 1948 there were 12 Jewish Christians in Israel, he said the numbers were known as they all knew each other. Gradually the numbers increased, to 12.000 then 20,000 but now no one knows the true number.
 
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David Kent

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According to the Bible a member of God's chosen people would be a natural born Jew or a Jew who had converted to the faith and tradition. The text quoted in Romans reveals God's attitude about those who've circumcised their heart (surrendered to God in Christ) in that they are considered to be Jews also. Consequently those who have not circumcised their heart or surrendered to Christ are neither Jew nor a chosen person. They are condemned in their sin.

We are a chosen generation, chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.
 
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Choir Loft

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  • Acts 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

Your quotation does not support your contention that "the church has always been God's master plan." Quite the opposite in fact.

In truth the quotation you chose supports the Law. Here it is again along with the next verse or two which clarifies it.

Acts chapter 3
24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.


What is the covenant God made with the Jews - "our fathers" as Peter is quoted saying?

Verse 26 explains;

26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

The promise isn't the church. The promise is Immanuel - Jesus Christ, God with us, who brings grace for salvation.

The church doesn't save anybody. Jesus saves. Why is this a mystery? Why is this a contentious issue? The reason is that the hearts of mankind refuse to submit humbly to the Lord of Lords - He who is King of the Jews.

Jesus was sent to the Jews FIRST so as to turn them away from their sins. Jewish worship assemblies are not held in a church. They are held in a synagogue or temple. Therefore the passage doesn't refer to a building or even to gentile assemblies. It's referring to the covenant God made.

What is the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant?

The Law remains as Jesus said, "I did not come to abolish the Law, I came to fulfill it." (Matt 5:17) God never deletes His word, never sand bags(1) a promise. Therefore the difference in the New Covenant is the addition of God Himself into the lives of mankind in the person of Jesus Christ. The New Covenant has nothing to do with church, but everything to do with the personal intervention into the lives of men and women so as to save and sanctify them SO AS to allow them to live according to the Law.

When God revealed more of His divine plan in the pages of the Bible, the nature of it was in line with The Law. In point of fact, Jesus foretold the decline of gentile fortunes in the End Times.

"Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." - Jesus as quoted by Luke 21:24

Jerusalem was liberated by the IDF in June 1967. History records the decline of the church began at that time and has continued to the present day. Important polls such as Gallup and Pew, to name the best, record the decline in regular church attendance (defined as a minimum of one visit to church per month) from 1948 highs to approximately 50% in 2010. Projected trends suggest the decline will continue until 2050 when regular attendance will fall to 10%. Meanwhile the number of Jews making aliyah to Israel has increased dramatically in the same period of time (1967 - 2018). Millions of Jews are returning to Israel while millions of people are staying away from church. The evidence cannot be dismissed.

Europe, the traditional seat of Christianity, is now considered to be a secular continent (as stated by the Vatican). Asia has not embraced the gospel and despite exhaustive efforts by missionary groups in recent years the number of converts hasn't increased substantially at all. Those I've spoken to who have spent time in Japan tell me the church is stagnant. Japanese culture, not Christianity is experiencing a revival. In South America, the population has abandoned Christianity and embraced ancient pagan religions. I've been there myself and also heard sad stories from fleeing missionaries. Africa might have inherited the mantle of Christian evangelism except for numerous local wars and plagues that sweep back and forth across the continent - stifling church growth if not blotting it out altogether. African wars are sponsored by US, European, Russian and Chinese efforts to secure resources such as yellow cake(2).

In Central America, Catholic sponsored Liberation Theology is disrespected and has been generally acknowledged as a failure. Protestant mission groups report moderate success in retaining church membership, but no great increase in numbers. Protestant churches sponsor annual 'mission visits' by small groups, but these only serve as a type of religious slum tourism. I know this because my son spent several months there and saw it first hand (over and over and over again). The church is not advancing any sort of program in Central America. It's basically treading water. American Protestants return to their homes with a renewed appreciation of their wealthy life style, but rarely give accounts of large numbers of souls saved.

In the US, the gospel has generally lost credibility and legitimacy due to more than a century of doctrines sprouting up among the lunatic fringe of society, of abuses by televangelists and the abandonment of evangelism by denominational church leaders and Christian organizations. The decline of Christendom has been bemoaned by every major leader from the Pope to scholars and theologians of good repute.

In 1967 the Holy Spirit visited the United States and blew holy fire upon the population in a general revival that has not been seen since. The June 21, 1971 issue of TIME magazine featured a story called "The Jesus Revolution". It was hot stuff back then, but church leaders of every denomination rejected the Holy Spirit and its encouragement unto salvation and sanctification. I know because I was there, witnessed the confusion of leaders and their angry reactions to it. The Holy Spirit was rejected by the church and never returned.

And the three men I admire most
The Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost
They caught the last train for the coast
The day the music died

- American Pie Don McLean

The average church in America is in obscene debt to the amount of three to five million dollars each. If this debt were to be called, every one of them would have to close their doors. Financial mismanagement and declining membership is a curse upon the American church. Nobody seems to know what to do about it. There are a few that proceed on a responsible pay-as-you-go basis, but by and large they are the exception not the rule. The church no longer has an effective voice in American culture.

The church is most definitely NOT the master plan of the Master of the Universe. The Master Plan is Israel and the salvation that came through Israel in the person Jesus Christ. The Law remains and Israel as a nation and a people continue to prosper. The church is in serious decline for the first time in 1900 years and few seem to want to admit it. The reason is because the church has cut itself off from its own spiritual root - Jesus Christ.

When I attempted to work and study for the ministry in an official capacity, I went to seminary. After completing Masters Degree level studies in Theology and Church History, I was called into the office of the Dean of Studies and Ministry. He told me that I had to recant my faith in Christ and to cease insisting that one must be saved. "Why can't you understand the ministry is just a job," he asked of me. THIS is the nature and substance of the church today and THIS is why the organized institutional church is most definitely NOT God's ultimate master plan.

Meanwhile religious fakers make exorbitant claims about success so as to elicit donations, most of which end up in their personal bank accounts. Its very much like propaganda issued by the enemies of the Allied powers during WWII which made false claims about fictitious victories when in fact their whole nation was collapsing around them. Abraham Lincoln once said, "you can fool all the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time, but you can't fool all the people all the time." The condition of the church in the first quarter of the twenty-first century is dire and only con artists and liars suggest otherwise.

God's plan is evident in the world in the State of Israel and the testimony of the saints.

THAT dear reader is the true condition of the church today. I earnestly beg you to open your eyes and consider the obvious. The Law stands. The church is failing and the future can be seen in the fortunes of the State of Israel and the hand of Almighty God among the body of believers.

May God bless Israel and those who humbly submit to her King - Jesus Christ.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
(1) sand bagging - to perform a hustle or a type of cheat as in a game. A dishonest promise or action. A confidence or con game.
(2) Yellow cake is not a reference to a dessert confection. Google it. War in Africa isn't about freedom or terrorism. Its about nukes for nations and diamonds and rare earth elements for civilians - with a tiny amount of oil thrown in to lubricate the engines of bloodshed.
 
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David Kent

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Jerusalem was liberated by the IDF in June 1967. History records the decline of the church began at that time and has continued to the present day. Important polls such as Gallup and Pew, to name the best, record the decline in regular church attendance (defined as a minimum of one visit to church per month) from 1948 highs to approximately 50% in 2010. Projected trends suggest the decline will continue until 2050 when regular attendance will fall to 10%. Meanwhile the number of Jews making aliyah to Israel has increased dramatically in the same period of time (1967 - 2018). Millions of Jews are returning to Israel while millions of people are staying away from church. The evidence cannot be dismissed.

The Christian Church in Israel has grown rapidly since 1948 and 1967. There were 12 Christians in Israel in 1948, we know because they all knew each other. They grew to 12,000 then 20,000 and now no one knows how many there are. There is a church in Jerusalem, according to Christian Witness to Israel, consisting of Arabs and Jews with an Arabic pastor.
 
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David Kent

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But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. - Romans 2:29

There are Arabic citizens of israel. Some are proud to serve in the IDF.

Some serve as members of the Knesset.
 
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ralliann

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Not imo.
I would say there has always been two Israels, the natural born and those who believed God and they included gentile proselytes, such as Ruth, who was adopted in.

Replacement theology says that the gentile church has taken the place of Israel, rather than the gentiles being grafted in or adopted in, to the Commonwealth of Israel.
I'm not sure what they do with the OT saints such as David, Ruth, Boaz, Isaiah, Moses, etc.
I think the Body of Christ is a spiritual Israel. But I do not believe I have taken the place of Israel. They are two different things to me.
Ruth was an Israelite by marriage. Her children were Israelites as well.
 
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Hank77

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While Israel isn't allowed to eat a cheese burger
That is something that the rabbis came up with, it's from the Talmud interpretation. The scripture doesn't say that.
It says not to cook the meat of a young animal in it's own mother's milk.
A Karaite Jew will tell you it means exactly what it says.
There were things that God told them not to do because the pagan nations around them were doing those things as part of their pagan rituals. They were to be the peculiar people set apart from the pagan nations.
 
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Hank77

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Yes indeed, but it isn't Israel that's the root of the grafting.
Jesus is the root.
Branches both natural and wild have their life in Him.
That is true as well. This is the scripture that I was thinking of that solidifys how believers in the Branch of the root of Jesse, both Jew and Gentile are one.
Ephesians 2:11-22
 
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Hank77

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Ruth was an Israelite by marriage. Her children were Israelites as well.
Ruth was an Israelite before she married Boaz, even before she met him.
Ruth said to Naomi...
para. "Your people shall be my people and your God shall be my God." She made an oath, a promise, by faith in Naomi's God.
 
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ralliann

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Ruth was an Israelite before she married Boaz, even before she met him.
Ruth said to Naomi...
para. "Your people shall be my people and your God shall be my God." She made an oath, a promise, by faith in Naomi's God.
Yes I know. She was married to Naomis son, an Israelite. Her status as an Israelite was in that marriage as well. She remained Naomis daughter in law though her husband had died......
Ru 4:15 And he shall be unto thee a restorer of thy life, and a nourisher of thine old age: for thy daughter in law, which loveth thee, which is better to thee than seven sons, hath born him.
 
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Choir Loft

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That is something that the rabbis came up with, it's from the Talmud interpretation. The scripture doesn't say that. It says not to cook the meat of a young animal in it's own mother's milk.

A Karaite Jew will tell you it means exactly what it says.

There were things that God told them not to do because the pagan nations around them were doing those things as part of their pagan rituals. They were to be the peculiar people set apart from the pagan nations.

You are quite right, which is why I enjoy cheese burgers and pepperoni pizza from time to time.

For the benefit of those who aren't acquainted with Karaite Judaism here's a brief definition courtesy of Wikipedia;

Karaite Judaism or Karaism is a Jewish religious movement characterized by the recognition of the Tanakh alone as its supreme authority in Halakha (Jewish religious law) and theology.

It is distinct from mainstream Rabbinic Judaism, which considers the Oral Torah, as codified in the Talmud and subsequent works, to be authoritative interpretations of the Torah. Karaites maintain that all of the divine commandments handed down to Moses by God were recorded in the written Torah without additional Oral Law or explanation. As a result, Karaite Jews do not accept as binding the written collections of the oral tradition in the Midrash or Talmud
.

Many Karaite Jews believe Jesus' thoughts and actions concerning Jewish Law & tradition mirror their own. A Karaite Jew may also be a Messianic Jew.

Messianic Jews - A revival group, which began in the early 1970's, very similar to first century Christians in that they resemble Karaite Judaism with the INCLUSIONS of acceptance of Jesus Christ (Yeshuah ha-mashiach) as Lord and savior. Many Messianic worship services conclude with an altar call to accept Christ as savior.

Messianic Jews are not considered to be a valid expression of Judaism by Jews or by the State of Israel and are not generally considered to be Christians by the church. In the first century, Messianic Jews suffered the same labels and restrictions. Some things never change.....

----- scripture ---------

Torah - is the first five books of the old covenant also referred to by the church as the Pentateuch. A rose by any other name.....

Tanakh - is composed of all the books of that which the church calls the Old Covenant. Although the Tanakh has the same books (nothing extra and nothing less) than the Protestant Bible, they are organized differently. Catholic Bibles contain the Apocrypha which is not recognized as cannon by either Jews or Protestants and isn't included in the Tanakh.

I hope this post give the reader a modicum of understanding with regard to the roots of Jewish & Christian theology as well as an understanding of the Bible itself.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....
 
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In the mid-1900's John Nelson Darby published a personal reinterpretation of history and Christian theology. Although Darby was neither theologian nor historian, the father of Dispensationalism and one time consort of witches supported heretical assertions such as a denial of the vicarious purpose of Christ’s obedience, imputed righteousness and an anti-semitic position that denied prophetic promises of a revived State of Israel (Ezekiel 37:1-14). His book provided the basis for the doctrine of Replacement Theology.

Darby's ideas were widely accepted and applauded by many including Bible publisher Cyrus Scofield and evangelist D.L. Moody. Darby’s dogma affected the American church so deeply that it permanently corrupted Protestant Christian ideology.

According to Darby’s Dispensationalist dogma, ancient Israel was destroyed by God and replaced by the church - hence the moniker Replacement Theology. According to Darby’s scenario the church thus became spiritual Israel - a metaphysical substitute for the real thing. In 1948 Divine Providence established the real State of Israel in fulfillment of Ezekiel’s prophecy. The unique historic event destroyed the foundation of Darby's entire philosophical construction resulting in its logical collapse. But logic is not necessary to fuel the purposes of those who prefer to walk in darkness. Although the light of God revealed Darby’s demonic deception, the church refused to acknowledge the truth that now stares it in the face. The State of Israel is real and the spiritual identity of the church no longer agrees with Darby’s interpretation. Facts don’t lie, but liars can concoct any explanation that suits them.

Israel has always been a stumbling block in the spiritual heart of mankind and despite the inauguration of the modern State of Israel Darby’s dogmatic problem has continued to fester for over seventy years. Apart from the fact the church as spiritual Israel cannot be justified by scripture and apart from the fact that the State of Israel does indeed exist in real time, adherents of Darby’s anti-semitic dogma continue to refer to the church as spiritual Israel - replacing the real thing.

The doctrine of Replacement Theology doesn’t hold water and so the disciples of Darby, choosing to believe a lie, continue to walk in waterless places, spiritually speaking.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

A person really needs to know at least a little bit about their subject, before they start posting on something. Almost every detail in the OP is incorrect. Having grown up in the Plymouth Brethren, I devoted literally years to the study of what J. N. Darby and his associates taught. Although I gave up most of my library after almost everything in it became easily available on the web, I personally owned more than sixty volumes written by Darby himself, and many more written by his associates. and unlike most other Plymouth Brethren, I actually studied these books, rather than just using them as decorations on my book shelf.

J. N. Darby was university educated to be a lawyer. But he never practiced law. Shortly before he finished his studies, he placed his faith in the blood that the Lord Jesus shed on the cross, and changed to become a clergyman in the Church of England. He was assigned to a country parish, and worked so hard at his ministry that his health broke and was sent to the city to recover. While he was there joined with a few others, calling themselves nothing, and not pretending to be anything, just to remember the Lord and pray. This grew into a movement that spread like wildfire, and in a few decades numbered 300,000 participants worldwide. As their largest congregation was in Plymouth England, others (not themselves) began to call then the "Plymouth Brethren." In time, this movement split into two groups, which came to be called the "Open Brethren" and the "Exclusive Brethren."

Neither Darby nor any other participant in the group ever had anything to do with witchcraft. This false story comes from a gross distortion of two facts.

The first of these is that J. N. Darby once visited a meeting of a group that was receiving much attention, just to see what it was all about. After he visited there, he openly published a report that his conclusion was that it was Satanic in its origins. But some people falsely claim that he secreted his meeting with this group, and took up their ideas. Both parts of this claim are absolutely false. But even that group was not associated with witchcraft, but was an early form of the modern charismatic movement.

The second of these is that a man named Alexander Crowley grew up in a Plymouth brethren home. But he rebelled against his godly upbringing at a very early age, 13 if I remember correctly. He lived a grossly wicked life, eventually starting "The First Church of Satan." Some claim he was once a Plymouth Brethren minister. This is absolutely false. In actual fact, Crowley openly and repeatedly stated that he despised the Plymouth Brethren.

Darby never claimed to be the originator of Dispensationalism. These ideas were circulating widely in England at that time. Wiliam Lowth had taught the most important of them in England a hundred years earlier. And Lewis Way, James H. Fere, and William Cuninghame are several writers that taught the same ideas as those taught by Darby, but in the time period of 1810 to 1820, long before Darby or Irving had written anything. (Look down in this sub-forum to see my articles about the Dispensationalism of William Lowth and of Lewis Way. And to see many others who had taught these ideas in England in the 1600s, and 1700s, and even a few in the 1500s, see the book "Dispensationalism Before Darby," by William C. Watson ISBN no. 978-1-942614-03-6.)

People claim that Darby got his ideas from Edward Irving, but he despised Edward Irving and everything he stood for. People claim that Darby got his ideas from Edward Irving because he refereed to a book translated by Irving in one of his writings, and because he attended a meeting at which Irving spoke shortly before he began teaching Dispensationalism. But these people are ignorant of the fact that Lewis Way also spoke at that meeting, and Darby also referred to what seems to have been the books written by Lewis Way in his own writings.

But the most amusing of the many gross errors in the OP was equating Dispensationalism with Replacement Theology. These two systems of doctrine are diametrically opposed. Darby never taught anything even remotely resembling Replacement Theology. Although eschatology was a relatively small part of his ministry, Darby's great eschatological doctrine was that the nation of Israel would eventually be restored, both to its ancient homeland, and to the true God, by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

And many of the answering posts are not much better. Darby was decidedly anti-Catholic, even writing a series of articles demonstrating the many errors of Catholic doctrine. And anyone who has ever read his numerous articles about his split with Benjamin Newton knows that church government was the central issue of his disagreement with Newton. Darby most certainly did not take over the group led by Newton. Instead, he openly and publicly broke with that group, and started a new group in the same city. At first only a few of Newton's followers came with Darby. But eventually most of them came over.
 
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