Replacement theology

[Covenant Heart]

Not sure what that has to do with your prior comment saying that the beast is a present reality.. the Revelation says this..

And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Is this a present reality in your life Mark.. ?

Remember.. those who had NOT worshiped the beast or his image were beheaded according to Revelation 20... ie, killed..

Part of John's strategy is the creation of a symbolic world to purge and refurbish believers' vision, in order to redirect their imaginative response to the world in obedience to God. Accordingly, to bear the impression of the beast is to assent to and to serve earth's beastly system of political/military/authority/ideology/wealth/power/exploitation/oppression as it exists in any time, place and form. And in any time or place, those who contest this earthly system of power and authority and injustice in witness to Jesus Christ are apt to face the very persecutions that John describes.

"Witness" is another major theme in the Revelation. The word translated "witness" in our English Bibles is also transliterated by the word "martyr." In the Revelation, the faithful witness is that which will die for Jesus Christ. This approximates very closely the import of another theological concept which has all but bene lost on us; and that is, baptism as death.

Believers in John's day understood that baptism was tantamount to a death sentence. People understood the formula that baptism-->witness-->martyrdom. Affirming God's claim on the believer's mind and hand, baptism effectively rejected the impression of the beast and thereby invited death in faithful witness to Jesus Christ. Baptism did not always mean that one would be called upon to die; but it did show that one was ready to die.

Rather than projecting the Revelation into the future, the Ideal Interpretation reclaims the theology of the Revelation by making the practice of its theology (beginning with baptism) the definitive mark for believers in the present age. Theologically understood, persecution and executions give relevant indication of the faithfulness of churchly witness to Jesus Christ (thereby living out her theology of baptism and incarnation).

In the century that just closed, more people died for the name of Jesus Christ than died in any other century. Indeed, more people died for Jesus Christ in the last century than in the previous nineteen centuries combined. Is there faithfulness in the Church? It would seem so. But whereas the "church" in the West and particularly (dare we say it) in North America largely alligns with the ideology/authority/political/military/propaganda/injustice/wealth/oppression system of this earth, one does not expect to see such faithfulness there.

As Caesar bade believers to burn an annual pinch of incense, promising freedom to live as they would elsewise, our devotion to the idolatrous demon gods of nation and materialism protect us from all danger. There is a reason that we do not see martyrdoms happening around us. And thankfully, there is also a remedy. And some of us will force this medicine upon the church whether it wants it or not.

Identifying Babylon as the worship of wealthy, and the beast as the worship of political/military power in any time and place, the Ideal Interpretation of the Revelation breaks this blasphemous allegiance between heaven and hell, and forces us to live for the beast or to die for Jesus Christ. Little wonder the church finds it convenient to push the Revelation into the future. But that is a luxury that we cannot afford. The refusal to live the theology of the Revelation is a denial of Jesus Christ.

The church knows this; but the church is reluctant to be the the church. It is incumbent upon faithful believers to force this message upon our culture, and in the spirit of the two witness of Re 11 to allow the world no peace or relief from their message. In the spirit of Re 18:4, believers are to sever bonds to the harlot and the beast in order to live out their baptism--if necessary, by shedding their blood in witness to Jesus Christ.

The time for debate is closing. The time for obedience is now. Let the policies of the beast and the iniquity of the harlot be seen wherever their works are done, and even the most ardent dispensationalist will agree that the beast sheds the blood of the saints. Why? Because it will be THEIR blood that is shed--along with the blood of all who are faithful. Even so, let it come.

Oh yes, the Revelation means what John intended it to mean.

Blessings!
Covenant Heart

 

[yeshuasavedme]

It may not be a reality in my life but to millions of other it may be... What is the beast but a government that demands to be worshiped as God... I'll just mention one beast and you figure out the rest CHINA.

What can I say... You can't see the "spiritual" fulfillment of Malichi 4:5. You can't see the "spiritual" connection between the church and Israel. You cant' see anything unless it is literal and of the flesh... There are two witnesses who are two olive trees and two lampstands... everyone looks at them only as men... The book of Revealtion does not mean what it says, it means what it means... Tell you what when you see two fire breathing men standing in the streets of Jerusalem... Give me a call...

Respectfully
Mark G.

Mark G....the book of Revelation means exactly what it says; what it means when it says it is to all be revealed still, but you must not change what it says, or you are guilty of taking away and adding to it and you what that brings -you'll get your name blotted out of the Book of Life and lose your share of the inheritance in the kingdom of God. -Dangerous ground indeed, to stand upon.
China doesn't behead -Islam does.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Part of John's strategy is the creation of a symbolic world to purge and refurbish believers' vision, in order to redirect their imaginative response to the world in obedience to God. Accordingly, to bear the impression of the beast is to assent to and to serve earth's beastly system of political/military/authority/ideology/wealth/power/exploitation/oppression as it exists in any time, place and form. Witness is a major theme in the Revelation. And in any time and place, those who contest this earthly system of power and authority and injustice in witness to Jesus Christ are apt to face the very persecutions that John describes.

"Witness" is another major theme in the Revelation. The word translated "witness" in our English Bibles is also transliterated by the word "martyr." In the Revelation, the faithful witness is that which will die for Jesus Christ. This approximates very closely the import of another theological concept which has all but bene lost on us; and that is, baptism as death.

Believers in John's day understood that baptism was tantamount to a death sentence. People understood the formula that baptismàwitnessàmartyrdom. Affirming God's claim on the believer's mind and hand, baptism effectively rejected the impression of the beast and thereby invited death in faithful witness to Jesus Christ. Baptism did not always mean that one would be called upon to die; but it did show that one was ready to die.

Rather than projecting the Revelation into the future, the Ideal Interpretation reclaims the theology of the Revelation by making the practice of its theology (beginning with baptism) the definitive mark for believers in the present age. Theologically understood, persecution and executions give relevant indication of the faithfulness of churchly witness to Jesus Christ (thereby living out her theology of baptism and incarnation).

In the century that just closed, more people died for the name of Jesus Christ than died in any other century. Indeed, more people died for Jesus Christ in the last century than in the previous nineteen centuries combined. Is there faithfulness in the Church? It would seem so. But whereas the "church" in the West and particularly (dare we say it) in North America largely alligns with the ideology/authority/political/military/propaganda/injustice/wealth/oppression system of this earth, one does not expect to see such faithfulness there.

As Caesar bade believers to burn an annual pinch of incense, promising freedom to live as they would elsewise, our devotion to the idolatrous demon gods of nation and materialism protect us from all danger. There is a reason that we do not see martyrdoms happening around us. And thankfully, there is also a remedy. And some of us will force this medicine upon the church whether it wants it or not.

Identifying Babylon as the worship of wealthy, and the beast as the worship of political/military power in any time and place, the Ideal Interpretation of the Revelation breaks this blasphemous allegiance between heaven and hell, and forces us to live for the beast or to die for Jesus Christ. Little wonder the church finds it convenient to push the Revelation into the future. But that is a luxury that we cannot afford. The refusal to live the theology of the Revelation is a denial of Jesus Christ.

The church knows this; but the church is reluctant to be the the church. It is incumbent upon faithful believers to force this message upon our culture, and in the spirit of the two witness of Re 11 to allow the world no peace or relief from their message. In the spirit of Re 18:4, believers are to sever bonds to the harlot and the beast in order to live out their baptism--if necessary, by shedding their blood in witness to Jesus Christ.

The time for debate is closing. The time for obedience is now. Let the policies of the beast and the iniquity of the harlot be seen wherever their works are done, and even the most ardent dispensationalist will agree that the beast sheds the blood of the saints. Why? Because it will be THEIR blood that is shed--along with the blood of all who are faithful. Even so, let it come.

Oh yes, the Revelation means what John intended it to mean.

Blessings!
Covenant Heart

Hello Covenant Heart,
Nonsense!
might as well read Alice in wonderland for theology -you'll get as much out of it as the replacement blabber you are espousing.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Hi again holden,



Spiritual Resurrection, Spiritual Redemption, Spiritual Salvation
(1) Only the spiritual part of us, our soul, is spiritually resurrected, spiritually redemed, spiritually saved.


(2) Our soul was dead in trespasses and sin because of Adam's sin while housed in a living body - 'dead men walking' as the old saying goes. Our dead soul needed to be made alive in order for it to be a living soul. Our dead soul needed to be resurrected. Our dead soul needed to be redeemed. Our dead soul needed to be saved.
(3) Only Jesus can raise the dead - a dead soul and a dead body. So in order for our soul to live, He, by His Spirit through faith, had to raise it from the dead as He quickened it, making it alive, making it like new, as though it had never been dead before. He is the Resurrection and the Life. He is the Redeemer. He is our Salvation.


Shirley

Hello Shirley,
Our soul is never resurrected, for it never ceases to 'be': from the time it 'comes forth' from the seed placed in Adam in the beginning, our soul is a living soul, forever. the absence of the Presence of glory inhabiting our spirit, that makes us sons of God, because of the defilement of our being in Adam, makes us dead in spirit, and that dead Adam spirit is never resurrected, but we are totally regenerated, born again, of a New Spirit: born of the Living Spirit of the second Son of God, the YHWH of hosts from heaven in human being 'Israel' flesh. We are 'one' spirit in the New Man, at the New birth, just as we came into being as 'one' spirit, the 'Adam' being.

Animals were made living souls, BTW.
The soul is cleansed by the blood sprinkled on the Mercy Seat.
The being, itself, is the soul, and we shall always 'be'; but where, and what will we 'be' is the theme of redemption.

We were made 'one being': Adam, in the beginning; and we are all named 'Adam'; the created being that is 'multiplied' as commanded, from the seed placed in the first Adam, into billions and billions and billions of persons... as the human 'Adam' being, and we were created by the ONE Being that is YHWH, and Who is eternally self existent as the Three Persons.

Our being was made 'one spirit'; Malachi 2;15, named Adam; Genesis 1:26-28; Genesis 5:2 (man, is Adam in 5:2); we are made 'male and female', named 'Adam' by the Creator, YHWH, and told to multiply as 'sons of God' (malachi 2:15 to be the godly seed=sons of God); to fill this earth and inhabit it forever, as our kingdom, over which we, the 'Adam', and sons of the first Adam, were to rule and have dominion forever. Genesis 1:26-28; Psalm 8; Psalm 115;16;

In Adam, we all died spiritually as sons of God when the unclean thing was eaten by our first father. We cannot be sons of God in our Adam being, for it is cut off from the inheritance: but He planned our redemption: body, soul and spirit; before He brought us into being, by becoming a brother to Adam -brother to all of us- as the Israel, who is the New Firstborn over all the earth who inherits the kingdom the Adam was given and regenerates it in the regeneration of it -for He has the power, as YHWH the second Person, to do so, and the authority as the human 'Firstborn', to own it by His ransom.

The New birth is the New Spirit that He forms within us, where the dead, defiled forever, Adam spirit was first formed: in our soul there is/was (made to be) a 'Holy of Holies', and He gives us His Spirit, as a New Holy of Holies within our 'cleansed by the blood atonement', ever existing soul; so that we may be 'one spirit' in His New Man image, just as we came forth in Adam as the 'one spirit', 'Adam' being.

'In Adam' all will die the second death, (unless they are born again, in the New Man), which is the eternal separation from the Presence of the Living glory indwelling (and the separation is in the outer darkness, in the lake of fire forever), and the eternal separation from the Light that Lights every man that comes into the world -in this creation, so that we may seek Him who seeks us back, through the blood atonenemt of the Lamb:

that is: if one dies in the Adam that he exists as, when he comes into his being, as 'one' spiritually dead Adam =minus the Presence of glory inhabiting the inner holy of holies; without being born of the Spirit of the Living God, which is being born of the Spirit of Christ, which is a completely New Spirit formed within the soul that is cleansed by the blood of the atonement: then that one 'in Adam' will suffer the second death in his soul, reunited into his resurrected, forever existing body -unless one was never taken out of his body and was cast alive, body and soul into hell, not needing resurrection (as some are); but which body and soul 'in Adam' is sent into the lake of fire, with a still dead, cut off, holy of holies = minus the spirit, which was formed to be his inner sanctuary within, for the indwelling Presence of the glory of the Living God.

 

[Covenant Heart]

Hello Covenant Heart,
Nonsense!
might as well read Alice in wonderland for theology -you'll get as much out of it as the replacement blabber you are espousing.

Blessings!
Covenant Heart

 

[Hedgehog]

The correct conclusion is that although Israel was elect from all nations of the earth, the individuals were not thereby saved automatically. Salvation was only on the grounds of faith.

I wonder what the benefit of being "elect" was then.
I suppose the answer is that at least they had the opportunity to hear from God, where as other naitons did not.
That is ALL this "election" could equal though.

No. All is all: the entire nation. We know though that it will be a remnant only, because many will perish before that.

If your speaking of ethnic Israel/ Hebrews, this idea is just silly.
Does one have to be alive to be "saved"? were talking about salvation here. Eternal salvation.
Though I 100% agree with mark...... all Israel( of God) WILL be saved. Holdon.. I just disagree as to who this Israel is.

.. and it ignores the fact that Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in

Have you ever considered just WHO these gentiles are?
I believe its ANYONE( JEW OR GENTILE) who is without God.
Paul explains the MYSTERY that there IS no such thing as jew and gentile...... it was all a hoax..... it isnt BUT NOW there is no jew and gentile, there hadnt been 2 distinct groups for a long time if eevr.

Paul includes himself in on that grouping by using the term " we".... as Paul himself was in essense a "gentile" until he knew Christ.
He was without God, afar off.. didnt know Him, UNTIL Jesus revealed truth to him.
Hid flesh may have been born an Israelite, a hewbrew of the ribe of benjamin.... but his spirit certainly didnt know God.

 

[Hedgehog]

If you'd like to ignore the scriptural fact that Jerusalem will be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled..

Markea, "Jerusalem" has already been trodden down by the gentiles... its already been given back to the faithful.

DOES ANYBODY connect that the SEED God spoke about was JESUS not abrahams bloodkinsman?
Hebrews OVERTOOK the name " Israel" and built a (false) temple etc..
they were PROFANING the Lords Holy name... calling THEMSELVES Israel when in fact they were NOT.
God ALWAYS meant the faithful people.
Those "gentile" blood kinsman of Abrahams flesh , trod down " Jerusalem"(Jerusalem from above) until Jesus came and we now know that FAITHFUL people are the true tabernacle.. a tabernacle that GOD pitched, not man.
Faithless people had been USING/profaning/polluting Gods glory for long enough.

so you see, the Jerusalem from above.. the only one that matters.. the "gentiles" have rod down already. Faithful people, the TRUE ISrael of God now have it back in their possession.

 

[Hedgehog]

All the prophets speak of the physical land of Israel and the restoration to it. The verses are too many to share by posting. I can only recommend rereading the Old Testament as I have had to do once learning that nearly all I was taught regarding "Israel" was wrong.

Is.65:9 I will preserve a remnant of the people of Israel and of Judah to possess my land. Those I choose will inherit it and serve me there. 10 For my people who have searched for me, the plain of Sharon will again be filled with flocks, and the valley of Achor will be a place to pasture herds.

One must take into consideration TWO different "lands" spoke of.

Fist off, have you been aware of this scripture concerning the flesh ethnic group of " Israel" ?
Jos 23:14 And, behold, this day I [am] going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, ***that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you;** ***all are come to pass unto you, [and] not one thing hath failed thereof.***

All earthly promises have been fulfilled with Hebrews.

and then this :

Hbr 11:16 But now they desire a better [country], that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Markea, "Jerusalem" has already been trodden down by the gentiles... its already been given back to the faithful.

DOES ANYBODY connect that the SEED God spoke about was JESUS not abrahams bloodkinsman?
Hebrews OVERTOOK the name " Israel" and built a (false) temple etc..
they were PROFANING the Lords Holy name... calling THEMSELVES Israel when in fact they were NOT.
God ALWAYS meant the faithful people.
Those "gentile" blood kinsman of Abrahams flesh , trod down " Jerusalem"(Jerusalem from above) until Jesus came and we now know that FAITHFUL people are the true tabernacle.. a tabernacle that GOD pitched, not man.
Faithless people had been USING/profaning/polluting Gods glory for long enough.

so you see, the Jerusalem from above.. the only one that matters.. the "gentiles" have rod down already. Faithful people, the TRUE ISrael of God now have it back in their possession.

This is absolute blasphemy against the Living Word of God!
Edit comment -And that is not saying that you are not saved, but the Word does not teach what you said above.

Israel went out and played the harlot and He buys them back, houses and feeds them, as He teaches through Hosea, but they do not know Him as 'husband' for many days.

Jacob was given the adoption name as a sign, as everything about the people who came from Abraham -through Isaac and Jacob- are signs to the world of the work and the person of the Firstborn and 'only begotten' New Man, the Kinsman-Redeemer; to redeem the lost, 'dead', former, sons of God back for the adoption as sons, for the glory of the Presence of the Living God to inhabit.

Israel is the name of the Redeemer as concerns His humanity, Isaiah 49; and His name, as YHWH of hosts 'come in flesh', is 'Salvation" ='Yeshua'; God with Us=Immanuel.

All the oracles about His Person and work to redeem the lost sons were entrusted to Israel, beginning with Abraham: He 'adopted' Jacob and gave Jacob His 'New Name' -as the New Man, who was to come through Jacob, as a sign of the adoption to come through the New Man, for all who would repent and receive Him as LORD and Savior.

He chose the seed of Jacob to be the keepers of 'His vineyard'; and they'll be restored as His kingdom on earth at His return in glory, for He has promised.
This is all I'll say to you as you are speaking absolute falsehood.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Blessings!
Covenant Heart

I didn' mean to be classy.
If you were me own sister in the flesh sitting at tea with me and spewed out that non-biblical nonsense we'd have a good go-round about it.
If you were me own daughter sitting at table with me and spouted such nonsense, I'd ha' sent ye ta yer room to read the Bible through and come back to discuss what it said, itself!
-As a no nonsense mother of seven and grandmother of double + that, I never allowed anyone to pretend in our house that such things as that were found in the Word, for they are not.

 

[NumberOneSon]

DOES ANYBODY connect that the SEED God spoke about was JESUS not abrahams bloodkinsman?

Only when it comes to Galatians 3:26 - "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."

In Christ,

Acts6:5

 

[ShirleyFord]

Hi Holden,

That is not called the first resurrection. The first resurrection is the real bodily resurrection as can be seen in Rev 20:5 (see also verse 4), where it is contrasted with "the rest of the dead did no live till the thousand years had been completed."

Revelations 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Three Questions:

1. Who are 'the rest of the dead'?

2. Since they will live again after the thousand years is finished, does
'live' here mean a physical bodily resurrection?

3. If so, do you believe their physical resurrection is the second
resurrection?

Thanks!

Shirley

 

[Covenant Heart]

I didn' mean to be classy.

Evidently! The allusion to Wonderland theology pays yourself little respect. But then, what is one to think when Scriptural focus on baptism/martyrdom in faithful witness to Christ against cultural idolatry are dismissed as “blabber?” For such is the focus of the post you so describe.

Had you read that post, you would know that it does not address the Israel/Church relationship. In fact, you have no idea what are this member’s thoughts on the matter. What is commonly called “Replacement Theology” is generally regarded as the Roman Catholic line. Reformed thinkers such as Herman Bavinck, Gerhardus Vos, Andrew Kuyvenhoven, etc. hold that God has ever had but one people. By faith, Gentiles are incorporated into the one Church of Abraham. You may not believe that, but it is Reformed theology, and it most assuredly is not “Replacement Theology.”

For the future, you might learn what members believe before proffering statements. And until you can make an ontologically substantive, principled distinction between the theology of Rome and Geneva, we see no compelling reason for which we should be guided by your remarks.

For the present, you might offer your own thoughts on the theology of the Revelation. Mind, we don’t ask for apocalyptic odysseys (of which we have plenty), but a serious attempt to integrate John’s vision with the broader message of Scripture (and in particular, with the theology of the cross).

As an aside, it seems disingenuous to suppose that those alone who are beheaded reign in life through Christ. Metonymies are numerous in Scripture. Ditto for synecdoche. Examples: The commandment says, “thou shall not murder.” Are we to presume that this forbids only murder, without concern for anger, hatred and implacability that are the root of murder? Or by, “give us this day our daily bread,” did our Lord teach us to pray for bread alone, without concern for all of life’s necessities? Scripture often puts a part for a whole (Mt 6:11; Lu 11:3). So it does no inherent violence to Scripture to pose that John uses decapitation to represent all who are slain “because of their testimony for Jesus” (Re 20:4).

Lastly, you will return to that most egregious calumny where you say that Hedgehog has articulated “absolute blasphemy against the Living God” (post 129). If you truly believe Hedgehog to be in violation of the commandment, you must report her post (127) and call our moderators to bring it into conformity with forum rules. If the moderators do not concur with your judgment, their word will stand and you will amend your post. If you lack the strength of your stated convictions and refuse to report what you say constitutes blasphemy, this member will report both that accusation and the effrontery that allows it stand despite correction. This will be done so that your post may be censured and Hedgehog’s good name may be restored.

Since you are a “no nonsense” kind of individual, we trust that you will take this seriously. If you wish, you can report this post as an act of blatant slander. But that will still lead to an examination of the relevant posts. We suggest that you exercise self-censorship first. But hey--it's your call. You decide how you want it.

Blessings!
Covenant Heart

 

[Markea]

What is commonly called “Replacement Theology” is generally regarded as the Roman Catholic line.

For the future, you might learn what members believe before proffering statements. And until you can make an ontologically substantive, principled distinction between the theology of Rome and Geneva, we see no compelling reason for which we should be guided by your remarks.

The irony here seems to be that most reformed thinkers embrace the doctrine of amillennialism, which stems primarly from Augustine.. and the RCC has been a driving force in condemning Chiliasm as heresey..

Amillennialism is the birthplace of Replacement Theology.. It obviously rejects the restoration of Israel and spiritualizes the Day of Christ into these present times..

So, I'd say that you folks are in pretty close proximity to those who do sit in those self appointed seats of authority.. professing these times to be the millennial kingdom of Christ.. that the first resurrection is past.. and that satan is currently bound and unable to deceive the nations..

So again, it seems a bit ironic to speak of a distinction when you all embrace perhaps the most ridiculous of all their dogmas...?

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Evidently! The allusion to Wonderland theology pays yourself little respect. But then, what is one to think when Scriptural focus on baptism/martyrdom in faithful witness to Christ against cultural idolatry are dismissed as “blabber?” For such is the focus of the post you so describe.

Had you read that post, you would know that it does not address the Israel/Church relationship. In fact, you have no idea what are this member’s thoughts on the matter. What is commonly called “Replacement Theology” is generally regarded as the Roman Catholic line. Reformed thinkers such as Herman Bavinck, Gerhardus Vos, Andrew Kuyvenhoven, etc. hold that God has ever had but one people. By faith, Gentiles are incorporated into the one Church of Abraham. You may not believe that, but it is Reformed theology, and it most assuredly is not “Replacement Theology.”

For the future, you might learn what members believe before proffering statements. And until you can make an ontologically substantive, principled distinction between the theology of Rome and Geneva, we see no compelling reason for which we should be guided by your remarks.

For the present, you might offer your own thoughts on the theology of the Revelation. Mind, we don’t ask for apocalyptic odysseys (of which we have plenty), but a serious attempt to integrate John’s vision with the broader message of Scripture (and in particular, with the theology of the cross).

As an aside, it seems disingenuous to suppose that those alone who are beheaded reign in life through Christ. Metonymies are numerous in Scripture. Ditto for synecdoche. Examples: The commandment says, “thou shall not murder.” Are we to presume that this forbids only murder, without concern for anger, hatred and implacability that are the root of murder? Or by, “give us this day our daily bread,” did our Lord teach us to pray for bread alone, without concern for all of life’s necessities? Scripture often puts a part for a whole (Mt 6:11; Lu 11:3). So it does no inherent violence to Scripture to pose that John uses decapitation to represent all who are slain “because of their testimony for Jesus” (Re 20:4).

Lastly, you will return to that most egregious calumny where you say that Hedgehog has articulated “absolute blasphemy against the Living God” (post 129). If you truly believe Hedgehog to be in violation of the commandment, you must report her post (127) and call our moderators to bring it into conformity with forum rules. If the moderators do not concur with your judgment, their word will stand and you will amend your post. If you lack the strength of your stated convictions and refuse to report what you say constitutes blasphemy, this member will report both that accusation and the effrontery that allows it stand despite correction. This will be done so that your post may be censured and Hedgehog’s good name may be restored.

Since you are a “no nonsense” kind of individual, we trust that you will take this seriously. If you wish, you can report this post as an act of blatant slander. But that will still lead to an examination of the relevant posts. We suggest that you exercise self-censorship first. But hey--it's your call. You decide how you want it.

Blessings!
Covenant Heart

I haven't time for our good go round at the moment - but will be happy to oblidge later; but for now, I did not accuse Hedgehog of the unforgivable sin, but of blasphemy against the Word of God -if you go back you'll see that was the wording.
Paul said that he was guilty of blasphemy, but he did it in ignorance, and I did not accuse hedgehog of willfully denying the name of Jesus after receiving the revelation of His Name by the Holy Spirit:
I hope you read my posts better before accusing me.

And My point was made earlier that the 'so called' fathers of the Church came after the foundation was laid and canon closed by the Holy Spirit, so they have no authority as fathers of the Church, who are merely children, themselves - and some of them not so informed of the revealed truth of the word, after all -I have read them a lot and it is like reading these boards.

Everyone has an opinion and many follow teachings of men instead of the revealed word; for fear of men, sometimes -cause if one disagreed with either the RC or the Reformers, who followed Augustine, then they were tortured or killed, until that power of the sword was taken from them by separating Church from state. -I do read history.

For your sake, I added a comment to that post to show that no, I did not accuse Hedgehog of being in the unforgivable sin....
~~~~~

I have to add a note to you, before I go-
There is no Church of Abraham, but only the Church of the Firstborn, and Abraham understood the doctrine of Christ and saw His Day and rejoiced, when he was given it to act out as a living oracle in Genesis 22.

Jesus, 'Yeshua', 'YHWH of hosts, second Person', 'in flesh' is 'Israel', (Isaiah 49) the New Man, brother to Adam and Kinsman-Redeemer of Adam and Adam's kingdom.
He is the Firstborn over all the earth as a human, replacing Adam, and if one is not born again by repenting and receiving the spirit of adoption, His 'one spirit' that we are when we are adopted in Him, then one is still in Adam (one dead spirit in Adam -Malachi 2:15), and will die the second death for their own sins, as the first Adam's transgression is covered by the atoning blood of the New Man, our Kinsman-Redeemer.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Hi Holden,




Revelations 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Three Questions:

1. Who are 'the rest of the dead'?

2. Since they will live again after the thousand years is finished, does
'live' here mean a physical bodily resurrection?

3. If so, do you believe their physical resurrection is the second
resurrection?

Thanks!

Shirley

If I may-
at that point they are all the dead of all the period of time that earth has existed who were not resurrected in the first resurrection.
All are bodily resurrected to stand and be judged and all exist which is 'living, but not 'Life' who are resurrected in their unregenerated body and cast away into the lake of fire.

During the entire thousand years there are many offspring born to those who entered the millennial reign as the 'Blessed of the LORD' who were born again in spirit but not regenerated in body. They die, as old as trees, the Word says, and have many children and fill the earth.
The children are not automatically born again, but each has to receive the LORD as Savior in their hearts, themselves, as God has no grandchildren.

At the end of the thousand years, all those born again Believers of the Gentiles and of the nation of Israel who died during the thousand years will be resurrected and regenerated and glorified; but all the rest of all the unredeemed who haven't already been cast into the lake of fire -back at the end of the seven years, at the judgment of the Jews and the Gentiles, when the rebel Jews were purged in the wilderness (Ezekiel 20:33-44), and the Gentiles were gathered for judging and the 'goats' sent into the lake of fire- will be resurrected to stand in their own bodies.

The LORD, in His mercy, tried to spare Adam and we his seed, from living forever in those unregenerated bodies by casting our father from the Garden and access to the tree of life, lest daddy Adam eat of the tree and we all live forever in that state of the first death -cut off forever from being cleansed and regenerated and glorified as sons, again.
But in the resurrection, all who refuse to come to His Light in their lifetime lived on this earth in their body, will get that very thing, living forever in the state of death to His indwelling Presence of glory, made holy again, and His sons.

 

[ShirleyFord]

Hi yeshuasavedme

Revelations 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Three Questions:

1. Who are 'the rest of the dead'?

2. Since they will live again after the thousand years is finished, does
'live' here mean a physical bodily resurrection?

3. If so, do you believe their physical resurrection is the second
resurrection?

Thanks!

Shirley

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Hi yeshuasavedme

Revelations 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Three Questions:

1. Who are 'the rest of the dead'?

2. Since they will live again after the thousand years is finished, does
'live' here mean a physical bodily resurrection?

3. If so, do you believe their physical resurrection is the second
resurrection?

Thanks!

Shirley

Since all the righteous dead of earth were resurrected in the final harvest time of the First Resurrection which began at First of Firstfruits, the first day of the week after the Passover in which Jesus was our Lamb slain...and ended at the end of the seven years completion that begins the Day of the LORD, then the rest of the dead are, at that point, those who were not the righteous dead and who waited below, in hell, for the resurrection at the end of the thousand years.

But I answered this , already.
quote me; "If I may-
at that point they are all the dead of all the period of time that earth has existed who were not resurrected in the first resurrection.
All are bodily resurrected to stand and be judged and all exist which is 'living, but not 'Life' who are resurrected in their unregenerated body and cast away into the lake of fire.

During the entire thousand years there are many offspring born to those who entered the millennial reign as the 'Blessed of the LORD' who were born again in spirit but not regenerated in body. They die, as old as trees, the Word says, and have many children and fill the earth.
The children are not automatically born again, but each has to receive the LORD as Savior in their hearts, themselves, as God has no grandchildren.

At the end of the thousand years, all those born again Believers of the Gentiles and of the nation of Israel who died during the thousand years will be resurrected and regenerated and glorified; but all the rest of all the unredeemed who haven't already been cast into the lake of fire -back at the end of the seven years, at the judgment of the Jews and the Gentiles, when the rebel Jews were purged in the wilderness (Ezekiel 20:33-44), and the Gentiles were gathered for judging and the 'goats' sent into the lake of fire- will be resurrected to stand in their own bodies.

The LORD, in His mercy, tried to spare Adam and we his seed, from living forever in those unregenerated bodies by casting our father from the Garden and access to the tree of life, lest daddy Adam eat of the tree and we all live forever in that state of the first death -cut off forever from being cleansed and regenerated and glorified as sons, again.
But in the resurrection, all who refuse to come to His Light in their lifetime lived on this earth in their body, will get that very thing, living forever in the state of death to His indwelling Presence of glory, made holy again, and His sons."
~~~~~~~~~`


the Blessed of the LORD who go into the millennial reign are not regenerated in body though adopted in spirit, and they die and their children die, and many die during those thousand years, for physical death is not ended until the thousand years are ended and the heavens and the earth are regenerated and death and hell are cast into the lake of fire.

those Blessed of the LORD will be resurrected at the end of the thousand years, also, and be regenerated in body, also, and glorified, also -and then, the New Jerusalem will be completed and come down from God out of heaven to dwell upon the regenerated earth.

 

[Imblessed]

Ok,

Say the rapture happens--Jesus gathers up all christian, dead and alive, and changes them and takes them to heaven.

who's left on the earth?

non-christians, right

So the angels come and do the harvest(separating the wheat from the tares)----but, wouldn't the fact that there are no christians left on earth negate that? Isn't that what the harvest is?


how do people get saved if the Holy Spirit is to be taken out of the way(I've heard people say the rapture HAS to occur for this reason) Isn't it the work of the Holy Spirit that saves?

I'm throwing things out off the top of my head here....Sorry if they don't make sense, and if I'm really messing things up tell me.

Yeshuasavedme,

you mention those left on earth for the thousand years, and you mention the angels coming to do the harvest(wheat/tares) during the 7 year tribulation(I think that's when you said it would happen)---how does that work?

 

[Markea]

Ok,

Say the rapture happens--Jesus gathers up all christian, dead and alive, and changes them and takes them to heaven.

who's left on the earth?

non-christians, right

So the angels come and do the harvest(separating the wheat from the tares)----but, wouldn't the fact that there are no christians left on earth negate that? Isn't that what the harvest is?


how do people get saved if the Holy Spirit is to be taken out of the way(I've heard people say the rapture HAS to occur for this reason) Isn't it the work of the Holy Spirit that saves?

I'm throwing things out off the top of my head here....Sorry if they don't make sense, and if I'm really messing things up tell me.

Imblessed, it's good to ask these type of questions.. it sounds as though they're coming from genuine concern for how things will take place..

Here are some thoughts from a study that we're currently involved in with the book of Revelation..

John was told to write the things which he had seen, the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter..

This is very significant and important to consider.. the things which he had seen was the vision of the glorified Son of God in Rev 1.. the things which are would pertain to the church age and concerns chapters 2 and 3 of Rev..

But then John is taken up and shown the things which shall be hereafter.. ie, after the church age..

So.. who is left on earth.. Jews and Gentiles.. for we're told in this portion (things hereafter) that there are 144,000 Jews sealed from twelve tribes of Israel... then we're told of a great multitude (which could not be numbered, and therefore distinct from the numbered 144,000 of Israel) coming out of the great tribulation, from all nations, kindreds and tongues.. these could be the result of these 144,000 being sealed and proclaiming the everlasting gospel..

We're also told of the two witnesses and also of angels proclaiming the gospel during this portion of the Revelation..

So you have sealed Jews... multitudes of Gentiles from every nation etc.. who came out of the great tribulation.. but then you have Jews (Israel) going through the great tribulation as described in Revelation 12.. etc.. this would be the remnant.. and we're told in Zechariah that 2/3 of these would be purged, and that 1/3 would be refined through the fire.. etc..

So.. the gospel is preached during the great tribulation during this portion.. multitudes come out of it and Israel's remnant is taken through it..

One last thing to add which many seem to not want to hear today... and it's that there IS a distinction between the Jew, the Gentile, and the church of God.. and even after the church is called up.. the gospel still goes forth and souls are saved..

God is good and He will save to the uttermost... and He will be glorified in Heaven and also ON EARTH, where He once hung on that cross between the heaven and the earth..as God's Lamb.. the Just for the unjust.. to bring us back to God..

To His eternal glory !