Replacement theology

[holdon]

You said it yourself, you don't see it... invisible...

Glad you caught that.

There is a church visible and a church invisible...

Well, first you said there was a visible Israel and an invisible Israel. Now, you do the same trick with the Church.

The church visible consists of all those who profess belief in Christ, the buildings, the good works ect... within the visible church there are weeds... See Matt 13, further within the visible church exists the invisible church which is the wheat, the true children of God...

Where do you see the Church in Mt 13. Those are parables about the kingdom. I am afraid we're dealing with a lot of confusion here: Israel, the Church, the Kingdom, all visible and invisible....

See THE WESTMINSTER CONFESSION OF FAITH chapter 25 (of the church)

Poor document indeed and confusing: there is catholic Church that is invisible and there is one that is visible, at least sometimes.....

The same is true of Israel all who are descendents of the patriarchs are visible. the chosen ones of Israel by God are invisible....

You don't mean "ghosts" do you? If you mean to say that of some we cannot be sure whether they are truly saved (in all ages: Israel or the Church), because only God knows the heart for sure, I can agree. But that is certainly not normal. Paul knew 100% that the Thessalonians were of the elect. Had he looked into God's books? No, he had the proof of their lives.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Hello Mark G.
While the Church is made of all born again Believers -and only born again Believers; which includes those who have departed their adamic flesh and gone to be with the LORD on high while they wait for the resurrection of their bodies, and those who are alive and remain on this earth who wait for the glorious appearing of the LORD -to gather them to Him; there is no way that those who are the tares in Matthew 13 are in the Church, itself, or even claim to be so.

Jesus explained the tares.
The field is the 'world' -not the Church- and the good seed sown in the field was, first, the 'Living soul' and his seed within him who were to come forth from him as sons of the Living God.

The first Adam, formed in a body from the earth that he was to rule as firstborn over, and breathed into by the Living Spirit, and who then was a living soul -an earth-blood, who was king of the kingdom of the earth and son of God, was made 'one spirit' to multiply and by that multiplying bring forth godly 'seed' =sons of God (Malachi 2:15) to fill this earth and inhabit this earth forever.

God formed the nation of Israel as His 'son' to bring forth the godly seed=sons of god, as a shadow of the adoption that He planned for all the 'Adam' whom He had made =whosoever will, that is.
He seeks fruit=sons= from the earth, the world, the field, the Adam, and the tares are planted in the 'world, the earth, those of the Adam seed who receive his lies and bear fruit to the devil, as his seed, or fruit only fit for burning when the harvest is gathered.

More-
If you check out what Jesus explained about the tares, then you can understand the end of the 'age', when the angels -the harvesters- gather out of His kingdom -at His return to rule- all things that offend, and He sends them away into everlasting fire; and then, the wicked generation will no more be found on this earth, for they shall vanish and the Messianic reign will be marked by the absence of the seed of the wicked one. -Psalm 37.

The wicked generation of this earth will be removed off it at the return of the LORD in His glory to take His purchased possession and reign in Peace from Jerusalem. They are the tares and they are the generation that shall not pass away until His return -and as in the days of Noah, they'll be swept away -and the righteous shall inherit the earth =the one righteous generation of this earth are those who are the good seed=sons of God.

 

[Mark G.]

Hello Mark G.
there is no way that those who are the tares in Matthew 13 are in the Church, itself, or even claim to be so.

By your logic then all who claim to be Christians are in Christ... That is not the case... See Matthew 7:22-23 clearly there are those who claim to be in the visible church who are not in the invisible church....

You said

Jesus explained the tares.
The field is the 'world' -not the Church- and the good seed sown in the field was, first, the 'Living soul' and his seed within him who were to come forth from him as sons of the Living God.

I rather prefer the explanation given by Christ

Matt 13:18-30 "Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown." Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. "The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?' "'An enemy did this,' he replied. "The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?' "'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.'"

Matt 13:38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one,

Respectfully
Mark G.

 

[Mark G.]

More-
If you check out what Jesus explained about the tares, then you can understand the end of the 'age', when the angels -the harvesters- gather out of His kingdom -at His return to rule- all things that offend, and He sends them away into everlasting fire; and then, the wicked generation will no more be found on this earth, for they shall vanish and the Messianic reign will be marked by the absence of the seed of the wicked one. -Psalm 37.

The wicked generation of this earth will be removed off it at the return of the LORD in His glory to take His purchased possession and reign in Peace from Jerusalem. They are the tares and they are the generation that shall not pass away until His return -and as in the days of Noah, they'll be swept away -and the righteous shall inherit the earth =the one righteous generation of this earth are those who are the good seed=sons of God.

That is interesting... I take it by your comment "-at His return to rule-" you are pre-millennial... So tell me, since there is an absence of the seed of the wicked one... only those who are in Christ enter the kingdom... Is that a correct statement...? Perhaps Matt 25:31-46 is descriptive of the inauguration of the 1,000 years...???

Respectfully
Mark G.

 

[Mark G.]

Well, first you said there was a visible Israel and an invisible Israel. Now, you do the same trick with the Church.

To me the Israel of God and the Church are one and the same...

Where do you see the Church in Mt 13. Those are parables about the kingdom.

I believe the kingdom of Christ is populated by the members of the invisible Church and is a present reality...

Concerning the Westminster Confession of Faith you said

Poor document indeed and confusing: there is catholic Church that is invisible and there is one that is visible, at least sometimes.....

Perhaps you would prefer the London Baptist Confession of Faith (1689) or something more up to date like the confession of the Presbyterian Church in America.

Respectfully
Mark G.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

That is interesting... I take it by your comment "-at His return to rule-" you are pre-millennial... So tell me, since there is an absence of the seed of the wicked one... only those who are in Christ enter the kingdom... Is that a correct statement...? Perhaps Matt 25:31-46 is descriptive of the inauguration of the 1,000 years...???

Respectfully
Mark G.

Every single Jew and Gentile who enter the millennial kingdom will be born again. They will not be regenerated in body nor have the fullness of the Presence of His glory indwelling that is reserved only for the glorified body.

His Presence of His glory will be with them in the Person of the risen, glorified, returned LORD Jesus christ, who will sit in the rebuilt temple that Ezekiel described, as the Glory of God in Person, upon His throne of glory -Ezekiel 43;1-7; and over all the houses in Jerusalem there will be the glory cloud by day and the fire by night.


Isaiah 4:
The Renewal of Zion
2 In that day the Branch of the Lord shall be beautiful and glorious;
And the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and appealing
For those of Israel who have escaped.

3 And it shall come to pass that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy--everyone who is recorded among the living in Jerusalem. 4 When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and purged the blood of Jerusalem from her midst, by the spirit of judgment and by the spirit of burning, 5 then the Lord will create above every dwelling place of Mount Zion, and above her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day and the shining of a flaming fire by night. For over all the glory there will be a covering. 6 And there will be a tabernacle for shade in the daytime from the heat, for a place of refuge, and for a shelter from storm and rain."
~~~


When the LORD returns to this earth on His throne of glory, He will send his angels to gather all His 'elect' -those of the seed of Jacob- and will have them brought to Him, 'in the wilderness' where he will deal with them one by one, and pass each of them 'under the rod'; the rebels will be brought, but purged. Not one grain of them will be left in the nations of the world (Amos 9:9), and only those who will become truly His by the blood covenant enter into the millennial kingdom and have eternal life -just as the Gentile born again Believers have eternal life by Believing in Him, now.

Ezekiel 20:33-44
God Will Restore Israel
33 "As I live," says the Lord God, "surely with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out, I will rule over you. 34 I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered, with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out. 35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will plead My case with you face to face. 36 Just as I pleaded My case with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will plead My case with you," says the Lord God.

37 "I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant; 38 I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord.


39 "As for you, O house of Israel," thus says the Lord God: "Go, serve every one of you his idols--and hereafter--if you will not obey Me; but profane My holy name no more with your gifts and your idols. 40 For on My holy mountain, on the mountain height of Israel," says the Lord God, "there all the house of Israel, all of them in the land, shall serve Me; there I will accept them, and there I will require your offerings and the firstfruits of your sacrifices, together with all your holy things. 41 I will accept you as a sweet aroma when I bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you have been scattered; and I will be hallowed in you before the Gentiles. 42 Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for which I raised My hand in an oath to give to your fathers. 43 And there you shall remember your ways and all your doings with which you were defiled; and you shall loathe yourselves in your own sight because of all the evils that you have committed. 44 Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I have dealt with you for My name's sake, not according to your wicked ways nor according to your corrupt doings, O house of Israel," says the Lord God.'"


They'll enter into His millennial kingdom, have children, and will be, along with the 'sheep' of the Gentile nations, the 'Blessed of the LORD' for the thousand year reign of Peace; when not one single seed of the wicked one -the generation of the wicked of this earth- will be found.
Note that the angels are sent to gather the Elect, first, who are dealt with in the 'wilderness' and those are the Jews.

Note that the angels harvest the Gentile nations last, and gather them to stand before the LORD on His throne of glory, in a separate gathering from the Elect -the Jews, who are notably missing from the sheep-goat Gentile nation gathering see?- because they were already gathered by the angels and brought to the wilderness, as it shows in Ezekiel 20:33-44


Those Sheep who Believed the Gospel and helped the persecuted Jews during the great tribulation -even those who gave only a cup of cold water to those brethren of the flesh, of Jesus, the Jews- will receive a reward for their act of faith, and they do receive eternal life because they have believed and acted in faith, but the kingdom that the 'Blessed' inherit is the Millennial Messianic Kingdom, but the eternal life is theirs just as it is ours who are born again but not regenerated bodily.

 

[holdon]

To me the Israel of God and the Church are one and the same...

To me they are not. "Israel of God" are the christian Jews in Gal 6.

I believe the kingdom of Christ is populated by the members of the invisible Church and is a present reality...

Kingdom...populated....invisible....Church....present reality....
Well, what a mess I should say. Is the kingdom visible present reality and consist of invisible members? How can it then be a visible reality?

Concerning the Westminster Confession of Faith you saidPerhaps you would prefer the London Baptist Confession of Faith (1689) or something more up to date like the confession of the Presbyterian Church in America.

Respectfully
Mark G.

Thanks for the links. But no I don't think they are any better. What good is an invisible Church anyway?

 

[yeshuasavedme]

To me they are not. "Israel of God" are the christian Jews in Gal 6.Kingdom...populated....invisible....Church....present reality....
Well, what a mess I should say. Is the kingdom visible present reality and consist of invisible members? How can it then be a visible reality? Thanks for the links. But no I don't think they are any better. What good is an invisible Church anyway?

Actually, there is no headquarters on earth for His Church, whose names are written in heaven, for He is the only head.
The members of His body are in heaven and on earth, and where two or three of them gather in His name, there He is in the midst of them.

Also, the Church is not 'a people', that is, a nation with an ethnic unity, for it is made out of all peoples and tongues and nations, so how is it 'visible' as to saying 'there it is?'
There are buildings where His Church may gather together -maybe they are His Church gathering there, or maybe they are not- But no denomination has the right to claim that they are 'the Church' as it is not a building or an organization organized by man, but of the Holy Spirit, though men are given gifts to function as a body in it -worldwide, as He sees fit.

 

[Mark G.]

To me they are not. "Israel of God" are the christian Jews in Gal 6.

Teachers teach students, who, with time become teachers... who taught you?

I do not show you this to make an appeal to popularity rather it is to show you Protestant thought going back almost 500 years...

Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God. (Gal 6:16)​

Geneva Bible (1599)-(Calvin)
6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the (n) Israel of God.
(n) Upon the true Israel, whose praise is from God and not from men; (Romans 2:29).(... a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God. (Rom 2:29 NIV))

Matthew Henry (1706)
v. 16 he pronounces a blessing upon all those who walk according to this rule: And as many as walk according to this rule peace be upon them, and mercy upon the Israel of God. The rule which he here speaks of may signify more generally the whole word of God, which is the complete and perfect rule of faith and life, or that doctrine of the gospel, or way of justification and salvation, which he had laid down in this epistle, namely, by faith in Christ without the works of the law; or it may be considered as more immediately referring to the new creature, of which he had just before been speaking. The blessings which he desires for those who walk according to this rule, or which he gives them the hope and prospect of (for the words may be taken either as a prayer or a promise), are peace and mercy peace with God and conscience, and all the comforts of this life as far as they are needful for them, and mercy, or an interest in the free love and favour of God in Christ, which are the spring and fountain of all other blessings. A foundation is laid for these in that gracious change which is wrought in them; and while they behave themselves as new creatures, and govern their lives and hopes by the rule of the gospel, they may most assuredly depend upon them. These, he declares, shall be the portion of all the Israel of God, by whom he means all sincere Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, all who are Israelites indeed, who, though they may not be the natural, yet are become the spiritual seed of Abraham; these, being heirs of his faith, are also heirs together with him of the same promise, and consequently entitled to the peace and mercy here spoken of. The Jews and judaizing teachers were for confining these blessings to such as were circumcised and kept the law of Moses; but, on the contrary, the apostle declares that they belong to all who walk according to the rule of the gospel, or of the new creature, even to all the Israel of God, intimating that those only are the true Israel of God who walk according to this rule, and not that of circumcision, which they insisted so much upon, and therefore that this was the true way to obtain peace and mercy. Note, (1.) Real Christians are such as walk by rule; not a rule of their own devising, but that which God himself has prescribed to them. (2.) Even those who walk according to this rule do yet stand in need of the mercy of God. But, (3.) All who sincerely endeavour to walk according to this rule may be assured that peace and mercy will be upon them: this is the best way to have peace with God, ourselves, and others; and hereupon, as we may be sure of the favour of God now, so we may be sure that we shall find mercy with him hereafter. 4. That he had cheerfully suffered persecution for the sake of Christ and Christianity,

John Gill (1697-1771)
and upon the Israel of God;
which is a further description of the persons, for whom he prays for these blessings; and is not to be understood by way of distinction from them, but as an amplification of their character; and as pointing out the Israel, by way of emphasis, the Israel, or Israelites indeed, the spiritual Israel, as distinct from Israel according to the flesh; see (1 Corinthians 10:18). The "Israel of God", or as the Arabic version reads it, "Israel the propriety of God", which he has a right unto, and a claim upon; who are chosen by him, Israel his elect; who are redeemed by him, out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation; who are called by his grace, and are styled Israel his called; who are justified in his Son, and by his righteousness; and for whose sake he is exalted as a Prince and a Saviour, to give them repentance and remission of sin; and who are, or will be saved by him, with an everlasting salvation; and is a name that includes all God's elect, whether Jews or Gentiles: though it may have a particular respect to such of the Israelites, or Jews, God had foreknown and reserved for himself; and who believed in Christ, and walked as new creatures, without confidence in the flesh. The Jews themselves own, that strangers, or proselytes, shall be called by the name of Israel; so they (Jarchi & Abarbinel in Isa. xliv. 5. ) explain (Isaiah 44:5) , latter part.

John Wesley (1754-1765)
6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule
1. Glorying only in the cross of Christ.
2. Being crucified to the world. And,
3. Created anew.
Peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel, that is, the Church, of God Which consists of all those, and those only, of every nation and kindred, who walk by this rule.

Adam Clarke (1762-1832)
Verse 16. As many as walk according to this rule] tw kanoni toutw? This canon; viz. what is laid down in the preceding verses, that redemption is through the sacrifice of Christ; that circumcision and uncircumcision are equally unavailable; and that none can be saved without being created anew. This is the grand canon or rule in Christianity.
Peace be on them] Those who act from this conviction will have the peace and mercy of God; for it is in this way that mercy is communicated and peace obtained.
The Israel of God. The true Christians, called here the Israel of God, to distinguish them from Israel according to the flesh.

John Nelson Darby (1800-1882)
To the believer the world has its true character; for, in fact, in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value (all that has passed away with a dead Christ), but a new creature, according to which we estimate everything as God estimates it. It is to such, the true children of God, that the apostle wishes peace. It was not Israel circumcised after the flesh that was the Israel of God. If there were any of that people who were circumcised in heart, who gloried in the cross according to the sentiments of the new creature, those were the Israel of God. Moreover every true Christian was of them according to the spirit of his walk.

Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown (1871)
as many contrasting with the "as many," Galatians 6:12.
rule literally, a straight rule, to detect crookedness; so a rule of life.
peace from God (Ephesians 2:14-17, 6:23).
mercy (Romans 15:9).
Israel of God not the Israel after the flesh, among whom those teachers wish to enrol you; but the spiritual seed of Abraham by faith (Galatians 3:9,29, Romans 2:28,29, Philippians 3:3).

Barton Johnson (1891)
15-18. In Christ Jesus. See note on 5:6. Circumcision in itself is a matter of indifference. To be a new creature, neither Jew nor Gentile, but a child of God is essential. 16. This rule. The one just named in verse 15. A benediction is pronounced upon all such. And upon the Israel of God. Rather, Even upon, etc. The Greek word often means even, and does here, as the Israel of God does not differ from those who follow "this rule." 17. From henceforth let no man trouble me. Dispute my apostolic authority. I bear in my body the marks, etc. He bore on his body too many evidence of what he had suffered for Christ. As slaves were often branded by their master's name, so he had the brand of Christ upon him in his scars. Compare 2 Cor. 11:24, 25. 18. Brethren. This is his parting benediction. It rests not upon the flesh against which he had warned them, but upon the highest part of their being, the spirit.

James Burton Coffman (1980's)
And upon the Israel of God ...
It is surprising that any could misunderstand this, as if Paul were, in any manner, invoking a blessing upon racial Jews. "Israel of God," in the true sense, with Paul, was never racial Israel, but the spiritual Israel. See Rom. 2:28,29; Rom. 4:13-16 and Rom. 9:6-8. This meaning of "spiritual Israel," of course, included all of every race, including Jews, who accepted Christ. "Israel of God," according to Wesley, means "the church of God, which consists of all those, and only those, of every nation and kindred, who walk by this rule."
This benediction is not addressed to two distinct sets of persons (those who walk by this rule, and upon the Israel of God) but upon the same set of persons addressed in two ways, as if he had said, "Yea, upon the Israel of God.

Cyrus Ingersoll Scofield (1843-1921)
The silence of Scofield concerning "the Israel of God" is deafening...

Now you know who my teachers are... Who taught you ???

Respectfully
Mark G.

 

[Mark G.]

Hello yeshuasavedme

I notice you did not answer my question directly... Which was

Perhaps Matt 25:31-46 is descriptive of the inauguration of the 1,000 years...???

If it is not, perhaps you could enlighten me to which passages of scripture in the NT are descriptive of the inauguration of the 1,000 years...

Respectfully
Mark G.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Mark-

Israel is the adoption name of all the redeemed, but to the nation of Israel was the adoption name given as a sign.
We Gentile Believers are of Him, adopted in Him, but His namesake, Israel, will be brought back to fullfill every promise He gave to them as His own natural people, for the glory of His name.

Adam Clarke and -I think- Wesley both commented on Isaiah 49, where Israel is the name of the Messiah, who came to bring Israel back to Him and to be the light to the Gentiles.

So Israel, the unbelieving nation, is cut off from their own natural tree that they are, by the adoption -for they have His name, "Israel'- and the nation that is not a people have been grafted into the tree "Israel', but we are not natural branches in the Messiah; they are; and He is able to graft them in again -and He shall, when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in;

that is, is harvested from this earth in the 'laqach' of the congregation of the LORD, when the dead in Christ are raised first at the first trump (Numbers 10:1-7), and the alive and remaining congregation of the LORD are called to the door of the tabernacle of meeting in the heavens at the second trump -Numbers 10:1-7 tells us of the two heavenly silver trumps that call all the congregation to the door of meeting -in the air; for all things that Moses was given were types and shadows of heavenly realities, and Paul understood the mystery of the Church and the mystery of the 'laqach' of the Church that 'walks with God and will not be' (on this earth till after the regenertion of it), for God will 'laqach' us -as He did Enoch, the Gentile Believer, before the flood.
Isaiah 26:19-21 -through Isaiah 27:1-13; Psalm 75:2; John 14: 1-3 -in the original Hebrew and Greek, explain the mystery 'laqach' of the mystery Church that Paul understood and revealed to us -before the coming 'out of His place' to punish the earth and its inhabitants, as Isaiah 26:21 says, and he will 'laqach' the congregation, as Psalm 75:2 says in the original, which is the 'receiving of the congregation to Himself that He promised in John 14:1-3, when He comes to take us to Himself and psalm 75;3, in the original, explains the inhabitants of the earth's distress after he 'laqach's the congregation..

 

[Philip]

St John Chrysostom:

Ver. 15, 16. “For neither is circumcision any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.”

Observe the power of the Cross, to what a pitch it hath raised him! not only hath it put to death for him all mundane affairs, but hath set him far above the Old Dispensation. What can be comparable to this power? for the Cross hath persuaded him, who was willing to be slain and to slay others for the sake of circumcision, to leave it on a level with uncircumcision, and to seek for things strange and marvellous and above the heavens. This our rule of life he calls “a new creature,” both on account of what is past, and of what is to come; of what is past, because our soul, which had grown old with the oldness of sin, hath been all at once renewed by baptism, as if it had been created again. Wherefore we require a new and heavenly rule of life. And of things to come, because both the heaven and the earth, and all the creation, shall with our bodies be translated into incorruption. Tell me not then, he says, of circumcision, which now availeth nothing; (for how shall it appear, when all things have undergone such a change?) but seek the new things of grace. For they who pursue these things shall enjoy peace and amity, and may properly be called by the name of “Israel.” While they who hold contrary sentiments, although they be descended from him (Israel) and bear his appellation, have yet fallen away from all these things, both the relationship and the name itself. But it is in their power to be true Israelites, who keep this rule, who desist from the old ways, and follow after grace.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

St John Chrysostom:

Ver. 15, 16. “For neither is circumcision any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.”

Observe the power of the Cross, to what a pitch it hath raised him! not only hath it put to death for him all mundane affairs, but hath set him far above the Old Dispensation. What can be comparable to this power? for the Cross hath persuaded him, who was willing to be slain and to slay others for the sake of circumcision, to leave it on a level with uncircumcision, and to seek for things strange and marvellous and above the heavens. This our rule of life he calls “a new creature,” both on account of what is past, and of what is to come; of what is past, because our soul, which had grown old with the oldness of sin, hath been all at once renewed by baptism, as if it had been created again. Wherefore we require a new and heavenly rule of life. And of things to come, because both the heaven and the earth, and all the creation, shall with our bodies be translated into incorruption. Tell me not then, he says, of circumcision, which now availeth nothing; (for how shall it appear, when all things have undergone such a change?) but seek the new things of grace. For they who pursue these things shall enjoy peace and amity, and may properly be called by the name of “Israel.” While they who hold contrary sentiments, although they be descended from him (Israel) and bear his appellation, have yet fallen away from all these things, both the relationship and the name itself. But it is in their power to be true Israelites, who keep this rule, who desist from the old ways, and follow after grace.

Circumcision is a sign, given to Abraham and his seed, of the cutting off of all Adam's seed from the inheritance of the the regenerated earth on the eighth day, the new beginning of the heavens and the earth.

Israel is the sign of the adopted sons of God from the dead son of God, Adam.
We must all be adopted, but the natural branches, whose inheritance is the adoption name as the living oracle, got first offer and will come in to the blood covenant that they kept as oracles of His Person and work, but only after the fullness of the Gentiles 'be come in' -is harvested from this earth in the 'laqach' of it.
And those sheep who go into the millennial reign as the Blessed of the LORD -as Gentiles- were rewarded for giving aid to the brothers of the LORD Jesus Christ after the flesh, not brothers after the spirit, and no one goes to heaven for giving water to children -and those sheep do not go to heaven, but into the millennial reign as the Blessed of the LORD, because they believed the everlasting Gospel preached to all nations during the great tribulation and gave aid to his persecuted brothers of the flesh.

 

[holdon]

Teachers teach students, who, with time become teachers... who taught you?

Well, I won't hold my breath for you or I to become teachers....

By the way, I doubt that Scofield said that as a comment on Gal 6:16. Or what is it that you learned from him???

Here is what eminent scholar W. Kelly wrote and it makes a lot of sense to me:
"And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them and mercy, and upon the Israel of God." In the first expression, "as many as walk according to this rule," he specially looks, I think, at the Gentile believers, such as the Galatians were. "this rule" is the rule of the new creation — Christ Himself. He adds, "peace be on them and mercy, and upon the Israel of God." The only part of Israel acknowledged consists of the real believing Jews. "Israel of God" seems to be used here, not as a general phrase for every saint, but for the believing ones in Israel — those Jews who had repudiated their own works and found shelter only in Christ Jesus. Two parties are spoken of, and not one only. "As many as walk according to this rule," are rather the Gentile believers; and the "Israel of God" are the Jewish saints, not the mere literal Israel, but "the Israel of God;"the Israelites indeed, whom grace made willing to receive the Saviour.


Or Mackintosh in a comment about Jacob:
I would observe, that there seems to be a marked connection between the spirit of this instructive passage and that of Galatians 6: 16: "As many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them and mercy, and upon the Israel of God." What rule? "The cross of our Lord Jesus Christ." This is God's rule. It is not "circumcision or uncircumcision, but a new creature." (kaine ktisis) This the rule which distinguishes the Israel of God; this the grand distinction between "the supplanters" and "the princes:" the former trust in the flesh, the latter "in the cross." The Israel of God have ever been identified with weakness in themselves, like Jacob halting along, having the sentence of death written in their flesh.


Or J.N. Darby (contrary to what you cited) when he addressed some errors:

The first thing I have to remark is again the oft-recurring expression of the Israel of God, as being the whole body owned of God in heaven and earth. This has been repeated so very very often, that the reader will have got the habit of using it in this sense in his mind, and so lose the sense that it is quite unfounded. The expression is used once in Scripture, and with no possible connection with the subject, or the millennial state at all. It is found in Galatians 6: 16, where, false teachers having sought to introduce Judaism among Christians, the apostle (having closed his reasonings and exhortations on the subject, and shewn what was really valuable, namely, the new creature) says, "As many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God" - evidently in contrast with fleshly Judaism, which the false teachers were seeking to introduce. But they were those then and there owned of God as His Israel; and there is not an idea of the millennium, nor any gathering of all into an Israel of God in heaven and in earth. Such a thought is never found in Scripture anywhere. It is well to remember this - that it is merely an idea, an unscriptural association, of the author.


The church is proved "a constituent part of the Israel of God." And symbols or expressions prove it. This Israel of God, of which the church forms a constituent part, is a dream of the author's. It is a scriptural expression, but not used as he uses it, so as to make the church a mere constituent part of some other body. It certainly is not thus that Scripture ever speaks. The church is the body of Christ, and not a constituent part of anything, save (with Christ as head) of the redeemed universe in the time of its glory.

And then what is the proof? Why, that Jewish things are used as types, or symbols as the author calls them. And what then? Who denies it? Why does the use of circumstances of the fleshly Israel prove that the church is a constituent part of another Israel? We keep the paschal feast typically or figuratively. Well, and what then? I repeat. What does that prove? "Sons of Aaron." We are priests - everyone owns that: and if it be merely that, in the whole creation, to all on earth, and I add even ostensibly to the unconverted during the millennium, we hold the place of priests: nobody will deny that. We are the children of the heavenly Jerusalem which is above. And what does that prove but just that we are a separate people, having a Jerusalem of our own? As to children of Abraham, and branches in the Abrahamic olive tree - I have already considered it. It is of more importance than the others, which really are of none.

​

 

[NumberOneSon]

There are two Israel, One of the flesh visible, and one of the spirit not visible... Within the Israel of the flesh there are those who have been chosen, the elect, Paul was one of those who was both... Soooo when I say Israel is inclusive of the church I'm speaking of those who are the elect, the chosen whether they be Jew or gentile... Going a bit further when Paul says "all Israel shall be saved" I believe he is speaking of all who have been chosen... This thinking is consistent with other portions of Romans specifically Romans 9:27 which says not all Israel will be saved



So "all Israel shall be saved" must be a subset of Israel of the flesh... It can not mean all Israel of the flesh. To further clarify the matter we have Romans Rom 9:6 which states ... "not all who are descended from Israel are Israel." Or does that confuse it more... Simple reasoning and logic tells us there are those who are not descended by birth from the patriarch Israel who God considers to be Israel.

With regards to your "especially this verse..." Rom 11:28

As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account;


The Gospel has been sent, to our advantage, to us the Gentiles, because of their rejection of Christ (Acts 13:45-46, Acts 18:6) but that will not prevent any future conversion of God's elect of the Jews

but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs


those he has chosen out of Israel who are descended from the patriarchs...

Excellent post, Mark. Right on the mark.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

 

[Mark G.]

Well, I won't hold my breath for you or I to become teachers....

Amen

By the way, I doubt that Scofield said that as a comment on Gal 6:16. Or what is it that you learned from him???

Nothing can be learned from him, as he is silent in the commentary available via crosswalk

Here is what eminent scholar W. Kelly wrote and it makes a lot of sense to me:
"And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them and mercy, and upon the Israel of God." In the first expression, "as many as walk according to this rule," he specially looks, I think, at the Gentile believers, such as the Galatians were. "this rule" is the rule of the new creation — Christ Himself. He adds, "peace be on them and mercy, and upon the Israel of God." The only part of Israel acknowledged consists of the real believing Jews. "Israel of God" seems to be used here, not as a general phrase for every saint, but for the believing ones in Israel — those Jews who had repudiated their own works and found shelter only in Christ Jesus. Two parties are spoken of, and not one only. "As many as walk according to this rule," are rather the Gentile believers; and the "Israel of God" are the Jewish saints, not the mere literal Israel, but "the Israel of God;"the Israelites indeed, whom grace made willing to receive the Saviour.

Yes I have heard that argument before... Tell me, what does he have to say of the olive tree of Romans 11

Or J.N. Darby (contrary to what you cited) when he addressed some errors:

The first thing I have to remark is again the oft-recurring expression of the Israel of God, as being the whole body owned of God in heaven and earth. This has been repeated so very very often, that the reader will have got the habit of using it in this sense in his mind, and so lose the sense that it is quite unfounded. The expression is used once in Scripture, and with no possible connection with the subject, or the millennial state at all. It is found in Galatians 6: 16, where, false teachers having sought to introduce Judaism among Christians, the apostle (having closed his reasonings and exhortations on the subject, and shewn what was really valuable, namely, the new creature) says, "As many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God" - evidently in contrast with fleshly Judaism, which the false teachers were seeking to introduce. But they were those then and there owned of God as His Israel; and there is not an idea of the millennium, nor any gathering of all into an Israel of God in heaven and in earth. Such a thought is never found in Scripture anywhere. It is well to remember this - that it is merely an idea, an unscriptural association, of the author.


The church is proved "a constituent part of the Israel of God." And symbols or expressions prove it. This Israel of God, of which the church forms a constituent part, is a dream of the author's. It is a scriptural expression, but not used as he uses it, so as to make the church a mere constituent part of some other body. It certainly is not thus that Scripture ever speaks. The church is the body of Christ, and not a constituent part of anything, save (with Christ as head) of the redeemed universe in the time of its glory.

And then what is the proof? Why, that Jewish things are used as types, or symbols as the author calls them. And what then? Who denies it? Why does the use of circumstances of the fleshly Israel prove that the church is a constituent part of another Israel? We keep the paschal feast typically or figuratively. Well, and what then? I repeat. What does that prove? "Sons of Aaron." We are priests - everyone owns that: and if it be merely that, in the whole creation, to all on earth, and I add even ostensibly to the unconverted during the millennium, we hold the place of priests: nobody will deny that. We are the children of the heavenly Jerusalem which is above. And what does that prove but just that we are a separate people, having a Jerusalem of our own? As to children of Abraham, and branches in the Abrahamic olive tree - I have already considered it. It is of more importance than the others, which really are of none.​

​

​

Well then, it would seem that Darby can not make up his mind. Whose errors was he correcting, his?... You got this quote where...?

Respectfully
Mark G.


​

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Excellent post, Mark. Right on the mark.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

There's a problem with the theology that teaches that some are chosen to be damned befoe they were created. It isn't what the Scripture teaches.


Each and every individual Adam person was written in the book of life to come into being before the foundation of the world as sons of God.
The design of each Adam person was complete before they ever had their being come forth in the seed placed in Adam, at creation, to multiply, when he was created as son of God.

When Adam was created, he was made one being, both male and female, to multiply and bring forth sons of God to fill the earth and inhabit this earth as sons of God forever.

We were all seed in the loins of the first Adam when he was created a son of God, and we all fell in him, when he ate the unclean fruit and died to the Presence of the Living God's glory, crowning him, as a son of God.

He and we, his seed, the Adam that multiplied from him, all became what he was: dead, and no longer sons of God and needing to be redeemed; and our kingdom needing to be regenerated from the curse of sin and death that entered it at the fall of the firstborn Adam.

The Creator, as YHWH of hosts, second Person, had planned us to be His sons before we were created and he had made already, in the same six days of creation, a plan to redeem us by becoming our Redeemer Kinsman and redeeming what was sold into sin and slavery with the only price that could ransom us and our kingdom.

Every Adam person was written in the Book of Life, and as such, every Adam person was chosen to be sons of God in the first Adam.
Only by getting one's name blotted out of the Book of Life can an Adam person lose the inheritance that was planned and was secured by the Redeemer's blood in the fullness of time.

The only way to get one's name blotted out is to reject the Light that lights every man that comes into the world, in the hoppes that we may seek Him who first seeks us, or to neglect the salvation so freely offered, or to blasphheme His holy name in willfull understanding that He is the son of the Living God and our Savior, the eternal YHWH of hosts second Person, come in flesh to be our redeemer-Kinsman and Kinsman/Revenger.

The blotting out of a name has no remedy and every person is called by the Light that lights them when they come into the world. One is not added, but one is blotted out by their own choices in their own lives.

One may not understand all mysteries to make the choice, but if one rejects the truth they have, or neglects the truth they have, or blasphemes His Holy name willfully by denial after the Holy Spirit has revealed His Person to them, then they do get blotted out.

Only the seed of Adam is written in that book of Life, and not one name is added to it after the creation, only blotted out of it by their own freewill choices made while in the body.

In Adam all die, in Christ all are made alive, and to be in christ, one must be reborn, which is the adoption in the 'Israel' of God, who is the YHWH in flesh, -not in Adam flesh, but a brother to Adam, the 'Israel' flesh and the Firstborn and only begotten of all the earth, now.

Every one of us was in the loins of Adam as his seed when the promise was made of the Redeemer who would crush the head of the serpent, and as his seed, every one of us received the promise, who have come from his loins.

Since Levi paid tithes to Melche-King of Peace, in Abraham's loins, even like that same analogy, we the seed of Adam, were given the declaration of the seed of the woman who would crush the head of the serpent.

Genesis 1:26-28; Psalm 8; Genesis 5:2; 6:1; Psalm 115:16; Malachi 2:15; Genesis 3:15.
He is Israel Isaiah 49; And as Israel, He is the anointed One, the Messiah, the Christ, the New Man, the One who inherits the kingdom by His ransom and He will take His possession and rule when all authority is put down, at His return in glory.
Exodus 32;32,33; Psalm 69:28;
Every Adam person is therefore chosen to come forth as a son of God and to inherit the kingdom prepared for them form the foundation of the world.

Redemption -is a buying BACK to what we were in the beginning, by the only One who could pay the price.

A personal call is given by His Light in every person's life, even if they never know His Name. If they seek Him who seeks them, He gives them more light and draws them on. If they neglect the Light they have, they do not receive more light for then they would have more guilt on judgment day, and God is merciful in that he does not give more light to those who reject the light they have, to cause them to receive greater damnantion on the day of judgment.

 

[NumberOneSon]

There's a problem with the theology that teaches that some are chosen to be damned befoe they were created. It isn't what the Scripture teaches.

Well, the scripture certainly teaches something along those lines when it comes to the issue of election or else Romans 9:11-22 wouldn't exist. But anyway, my agreement with Mark didn't really have to do with salvation/damnation issues.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

 

[Markea]

Excellent post, Mark. Right on the mark.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

I guess it's excellent to those that would ignore what Paul does not want them to be ignorant of.. how that Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in..

If you'd like to ignore the scriptural fact that Jerusalem will be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled..

If you'd like to ignore that Israel is the only nation on this planet which is not a Gentile nation...

If you'd like to ignore the scriptural fact which says that when the Lord comes in His glory, and then sits upon the throne of His glory.. that His Apostles (Peter, James, John..all twelve) will also sit upon twelve thrones.. judging the twelve tribes of Israel..

If you'd like to ignore the volumes of OT prophecies and thematic content concerning Israel.. and spiritualize it all into the church of God.. as much of Christendom has done..

Then yeah.. I'd see where it would be excellent..

Although I don't ignore that which the word of God admonishes me to not ignore.. lest I should be wise in my own conceits..

In Romans 11:25-29.. Paul is speaking of National Israel.. how that they will once again be the head of the nations.. and not the tail...for Israel will one day soon look upon the One whom they have pierced.. and they will mourn for Him in that Day..

In the Day of Christ... the Day of the Lord... which is as a thousand years...

Yes.. it'll all be realized in that Day... not spiritualized.. but realized... and all those who do partake of the First resurrection will see our Lord Jesus Christ sitting upon the throne of His glory.. and we'll also see Peter, James, and John... resurrected in the regeneration.. sitting upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel..

In that Day..

For He is truly the God of the living.. the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob !

 

[NumberOneSon]

whatever.