Replacement Theology Refuted

[ewq1938]

Supersession teaches that Israel isn’t elect, but the Body of Christ is, now.

Faithful Israel is elect, non-faithful Israel is not...and is not even Israel anymore. If they come to Christ, they can be re-accepted/grafted.

 

[Grip Docility]

Yes, I have done this for several posts.

You said, "The Grafted are warned to not overlook that the separated were temporarily cast aside for the sake of the grafted"

Paul does not say that. Paul says, "because of unbelief they were broken off"

He also does not say it's universally temporary. It can be temporary for those that decide to come to accept Christ, however it is permanent for those that refuse to come to Christ.

Supersession, per the OP is to say God’s promises are contingent.

The word irrevocable becomes an important word at this point. Especially as it is used in Romans 11.

The Gentiles have the Gospel, by Jesus, through Israel. An important verse to remember is the following... Matthew 15:24.

Also, the book of Hosea has much to say.

The Natural branches were broken off due to “unbelief”, and I do see your point. However, Romans 11 makes it clear that God isn’t done with Israel, yet. Israel is/are the Natural branches, and we are the unnatural branches.

Matthew 23 ends with hope. It says they (Unbelieving Israel) won’t see Him again until they say blessed is He who comes in “The Name of The Lord”.

If, at the Advent of Jesus, the Living Body of Christ is Caught up With the Resurrected Body of Christ, as Thessalonians says, where are they headed? After all... Zechariah 14 has some interesting things to say... doesn’t it?

Where is the valley of Magido?

Sincerely.., why does God raise the Dead in Revelation?

To condemn all as Wicked or to “Judge” those that aren’t saved yet unto glory or damnation? Keep in mind the Body is promised to not be judged per Christ’s words here... John 5:24... so the whole emptying of Sheol thing is a pretty big deal... right? Sheol and Heaven are two different places, so when Jesus promised “paradise” to the thief on the cross “this Day”... we know He didn’t mean “Sheol”.

I’m trying to point something out that is in scripture.

 

[Grip Docility]

Faithful Israel is elect, non-faithful Israel is not...and is not even Israel anymore. If they come to Christ, they can be re-accepted/grafted.

Incidentally, nowhere in scripture is the Body of Christ called Israel.

Nowhere in scripture is election a term applied to the Body of Christ beyond Christ being elected and us being saved through His election.

We are elected to salvation through hearing unto belief, but nowhere is the Body of Christ called Israel or elect.

Israel, alone is scripturally Elect.

Any other statement is RT.

The Re-accepting, re-grafting is a point of strong agreement, with you, for me.

 

[ewq1938]

Incidentally, nowhere in scripture is the Body of Christ called Israel.

It is described as such. No one is attached to Israel unless they are Christians. Israel is that one special olive tree. Natural branches are Jews born into Israel. New branches are olive tree branches from other trees. Removed formerly natural branches (natural born Jews) means they are removed from Israel where they were originally born into.

The Re-accepting, re-grafting is a point of strong agreement, with you, for me.

Good. Removed branches can come back and it will be like they were never removed.

 

[Grip Docility]

It is described as such. No one is attached to Israel unless they are Christians. Israel is that one special olive tree. Natural branches are Jews born into Israel. New branches are olive tree branches from other trees. Removed formerly natural branches (natural born Jews) means they are removed from Israel where they were originally born into.

Disagree, IMO, on how this reads... But......

Good. Removed branches can come back and it will be like they were never removed.

We agree about the most important part!!

Praise our Wonderful and Merciful God, Who’s Rich Mercy is Beyond our comprehension!

 

[jgr]

Nowhere in scripture is election a term applied to the Body of Christ beyond Christ being elected and us being saved through His election.

We are elected to salvation through hearing unto belief, but nowhere is the Body of Christ called Israel or elect.

It is only those of the Body of Christ who are identified as the elect(ion).

Luke 18:7
And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

Romans 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Colossians 3:12
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Romans 11:7
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

1 Thessalonians 1:4
Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

1 Peter 5:13
The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.

 

[Dave L]

Scripture won't support that.

The Hebrews and Israelites were the same people.

“Now there was no smith found throughout all the land of Israel: for the Philistines said, Lest the Hebrews make them swords or spears:” (1 Samuel 13:19)

“Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;” (Philippians 3:5)

“And they shall hearken to thy voice: and thou shalt come, thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, The Lord God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days’ journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the Lord our God.” (Exodus 3:18)

“Then said the princes of the Philistines, What do these Hebrews here? And Achish said unto the princes of the Philistines, Is not this David, the servant of Saul the king of Israel, which hath been with me these days, or these years, and I have found no fault in him since he fell unto me unto this day?” (1 Samuel 29:3)

“Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? So am I.” (2 Corinthians 11:22)

So, Abraham’s seed were the Hebrews originally and also known as Israel.

Paul says Jesus is Abraham’s Seed along with those who believe in him which means
Jesus and believers are Israel.

 

[Dave L]

True. Why you're reading this as Israel, I'll never know except to promote something that isn't correct. It's very true that God called both Israel and Jesus out of Egypt. God's calling Israel out of Egypt was a deliverance. Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt...
That's stretching things a bit. Paul isn't saying he is Israel.As a nation yes. As individuals they were called Israelites.No way! The people in Rom 2:14 are clearly not Israelites. There's no way to prove they are from Ephraim either.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves.

You need to understand Israel from a NT perspective, not from the partial revelation of the OT.

 

[Dave L]

Paul didn't forbid circumcision.

“Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.” (Galatians 5:2)

 

[ace of hearts]

It is described as such. No one is attached to Israel unless they are Christians. Israel is that one special olive tree. Natural branches are Jews born into Israel. New branches are olive tree branches from other trees. Removed formerly natural branches (natural born Jews) means they are removed from Israel where they were originally born into.

We're attached to Jesus Christ, not Israel.

Good. Removed branches can come back and it will be like they were never removed.

Yes and amen.

 

[ace of hearts]

The Hebrews and Israelites were the same people.

Sorry but I think Abraham was a Hebrew and know he wasn't an Israelite.

 

[ace of hearts]

You need to understand Israel from a NT perspective, not from the partial revelation of the OT.

Paul quotes this as truth in the NT. I have a NT perspective.

 

[ace of hearts]

“Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.” (Galatians 5:2)

This doesn't forbid circumcision. It points out those who trust in the law for salvation don't have it.

 

[Grip Docility]

It is only those of the Body of Christ who are identified as the elect(ion).

Luke 18:7
And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

Romans 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Colossians 3:12
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Romans 11:7
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

1 Thessalonians 1:4
Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

1 Peter 5:13
The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.

Your first sentence is immediately challenged by the entire Old Testament.

Your following usages of the word elect and election are missing context.

Luke 18 is spoken to the diaspora.

Romans 8-11 literally leads into discussion about Israel vs Gentiles and God’s work with both. Paul says not all Israel is Israel, but he specifically divides “Israel” from Abraham’s Seed, by placing Spiritual rebirth through faith in Jesus as the current Israel in the Physical Israel context, yet he doesn’t once call the Body of Christ, Israel and the elect are again within the Diaspora context.

Colossians 3:11 connects to Paul specifying that there is no Jew or Gentile in the Body of Christ and the word election is used in an Ephesians 1:4 sense, that specifically binds to Christ being elected before the foundation as the Slain Lamb. Even by specifying what Paul specifies, about Jews and Gentiles, it is clear that the Body of Christ is not Israel, though some of Israel has joined the Body of Christ. Paul counts his heritage loss, as he identifies Himself as part of Israel that is “In Christ”.

1 Thessalonians is also the Ephesians 1:4 context because it is to believers, in the opening of the epistle.

1 and 2 Peter are the most specific use of the word Elect and this is actually supporting my initial point as Peter was the emissary to the Jews, while Paul was the emissary to the Gentiles. This is immediately verified here (Galatians 2:8).

Now, about your opening sentence, of your response... if I find one single reference in the Old Testament that binds physical Israel to election, it becomes immediately void.

I specifically worded election in Jesus, Who was elected before the foundation, as the usage we see towards the Body of Christ, but you have suggested that Israel is not Elect by Physical description, while I assure you, Romans 11 is a clue to God’s “irrevocable” promises, and the entire Old Testament verifies the election of Jacob’s descendants.

If you missed that God elected Physical Israel in the OT, I would have to say you managed to overlook quite a bit while reading through it.

Romans 11:25 and Luke 21:24 have an interesting similarity in their phrasing. Jews and Gentiles are given context, despite their currently being no Jew or Gentile in the Body of Christ. Do you see it?

 

[ace of hearts]

Your first sentence is immediately challenged by the entire Old Testament.

Your following usages of the word elect and election are missing context.

Luke 18 is spoken to the diaspora.

Romans 8-11 literally leads into discussion about Israel vs Gentiles and God’s work with both. Paul says not all Israel is Israel, but he specifically divides “Israel” from Abraham’s Seed, by placing Spiritual rebirth through faith in Jesus as the current Israel in the Physical Israel context, yet he doesn’t once call the Body of Christ, Israel and the elect are again within the Diaspora context.

Colossians 3:11 connects to Paul specifying that there is no Jew or Gentile in the Body of Christ and the word election is used in an Ephesians 1:4 sense, that specifically binds to Christ being elected before the foundation as the Slain Lamb. Even by specifying what Paul specifies, about Jews and Gentiles, it is clear that the Body of Christ is not Israel, though some of Israel has joined the Body of Christ. Paul counts his heritage loss, as he identifies Himself as part of Israel that is “In Christ”.

1 Thessalonians is also the Ephesians 1:4 context because it is to believers, in the opening of the epistle.

1 and 2 Peter are the most specific use of the word Elect and this is actually supporting my initial point as Peter was the emissary to the Jews, while Paul was the emissary to the Gentiles. This is immediately verified here (Galatians 2:8).

Now, about your opening sentence, of your response... if I find one single reference in the Old Testament that binds physical Israel to election, it becomes immediately void.

I specifically worded election in Jesus, Who was elected before the foundation, as the usage we see towards the Body of Christ, but you have suggested that Israel is not Elect by Physical description, while I assure you, Romans 11 is a clue to God’s “irrevocable” promises, and the entire Old Testament verifies the election of Jacob’s descendants.

If you missed that God elected Physical Israel in the OT, I would have to say you managed to overlook quite a bit while reading through it.

Romans 11:25 and Luke 21:24 have an interesting similarity in their phrasing. Jews and Gentiles are given context, despite their currently being no Jew or Gentile in the Body of Christ. Do you see it?

No because of

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

 

[Grip Docility]

No because of

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

? I have noted you know the difference between Israel and the Seed of Abraham. You recognized the Seed of Abraham as the Colossians 3:11 and Ephesians 1:4 of the matter.

I’m not sure I gather what you are saying no to.

 

[Dave L]

This doesn't forbid circumcision. It points out those who trust in the law for salvation don't have it.

Read it again. Any not circumcised were cut off including blood relatives.

 

[ace of hearts]

? I have noted you know the difference between Israel and the Seed of Abraham. You recognized the Seed of Abraham as the Colossians 3:11 and Ephesians 1:4 of the matter.

I’m not sure I gather what you are saying no to.

Col 3 doesn't mention Abraham. I didn't mention anything in Colossians or Eph 1:4 in my previous post. I certainly agree with and believe them as stated.

The passages you reference have nothing to do with Abraham.

If you read all my posts, I'm saying to to the doctrine promoted by the thread.

 

[Dave L]

Sorry but I think Abraham was a Hebrew and know he wasn't an Israelite.

Moses used Hebrews and Israel interchangeably.

 

[Dave L]

Col 3 doesn't mention Abraham. I didn't mention anything in Colossians or Eph 1:4 in my previous post. I certainly agree with and believe them as stated.

The passages you reference have nothing to do with Abraham.

It doesn't need to mention Abraham. the Rest of scripture pertaining to him is sufficient and then some.